Need advice on upgrades for first gen 250R

[Buck Snort]

Just got this beast, love it! Would like to hear opinions on upgrades. Forks, extended swing arm, wider axle, carb and motor work? Runs good and got this trike for a decent price. So I wouldn't mind spending a bit of money on it. I kinda think I like the stock forks with the wider tire.

[Buck Snort]

Also , opinions on exhaust.

[stoshu]

I have an extended swingarm on mine. It still feels like a 200s on steroids. Definatly a good upgrade. I have an extra +3 for sale as well. PM your phone number and I'll send pics if you're interested in it.

[Bren_downe]

Trx300ex /400ex hubs, gives you just a bit more width. A nice aftermarket pipe is good too. I have a Bassani on mine and it performs great. I Agree with you the wide tire is cool and gives the first gen their character.
Join air foolers.com and start reading. Lots of mods available.

[barnett468]

.
Depends on your riding preference.

The longer the swing arm, the harder it will be to turn and the more it will push the front end unless you are sliding, and the more difficult it will be to operate on tight trails.

If you lengthen the swing arm, you must modify the rear shock and use a stiffer spring unless you weight 95 lbs.

If you want it to corner well, use bigger rims with low profile tires.

[loganm]

An extended swingarm should actually help keep the front tire from pushing as much. The front end really likes to push, especially when it's slick.

[barnett468]

An extended swingarm should actually help keep the front tire from pushing as much.

Wrong.....

[loganm]

Wrong.....

No, in fact I'm right. Better weight distribution. Plus, you can get on it without it wanting to throw you over the back every time. :rolleyes:

[El Camexican]

Just like McDonalds; "I'm lovin it!":lol:

[barnett468]

.

No, in fact I'm right.

No, in FACT you are still wrong.



Better weight distribution.

Wrong for the third time . "better weight distribution" is a matter of opinion not fact, and the "best" weight distribution depends on the intended use of the bike, and it was the opinion of certified and experienced HONDA engineers, and expert riders that determined that the way they designed it was ideal for it's intended purpose.



Plus, you can get on it without it wanting to throw you over the back every time. :rolleyes:

You can simply sit farther forward on the seat to counter that "problem".



But I'm not an engineer, so I don't know all the technical details.

Since you admit that you are not an engineer, and we know from your first thread on the site that you are not an expert mechanic or expert rider, it would be reasonable to believe that you are not qualified to claim that your "opinions" are "facts".

[loganm]

I don't know if you've ever ridden a first gen, but they are short, narrow, undersprung, and nigh unslideable. If the first gen design was "ideal", they wouldn't have improved it so much for the 2nd, and 3rd gen. But I don't think OP wants this argument in this thread.

OP a little longer swingarm will definitely make it more manageable, and give you a bit more travel in the rear, which it desperately needs. It will make it turn a bit slower and wider though. I would not suggest going to a +10 like I am, as you're pretty much modifying the whole suspension system at that point.

[barnett468]

I don't know if you've ever ridden a first gen, but they are short, narrow,

I'm 6'1,

You are 6"1' so of course it may seem a little short and narrow to you . No ATC mfg can build one size to fit all . They build them for the mean average size of people for their target market and 6' 1" is on the extreme high side of that average.



undersprung,

I'm 6'1, 225+ in full riding gear,

This is inaccurate in that it does not apply to all riders since not all riders weigh as much as 225 lbs . No ATC mfg can build one size to fit all . They build them for the mean average size of people for their target market and 225 lbs is on the extreme high side of that average.



unslideable.

This is inaccurate in that it does not apply to all riders since not all riders are the same size or skill level . No ATC mfg can build one size to fit all . They build them for the mean average size and skill level of the people for their target market.



If the first gen design was "ideal", they wouldn't have improved it so much for the 2nd, and 3rd gen.

This is inaccurate . As I previously stated, it was ideal for their intended target market at the time . It was NOT designed or intended to be a pure race bike out of the box like an MX bike would be as opposed to an Enduro type bike, and it was not specifically designed for people that were 6' 1" and weighed 225 lbs.
.

They certainly could have built it to be a much higher performance bike like The TECATE...The Most Powerful 3 Wheeler In The Universe is, however, this would have increased the cost and reduced the amount of people that would have bought it since at the time a lot fewer people were interested in a pure racing type bike than they were in a good overall performing 2 stroke bike.

One of the reasons they changed it so much for 1985 is because the 1984 Tecate was a much better bike out of the box for high performance use, and the trend at that time was that people wanted something that was a bit more high performance oriented than their previous model.
.

[DohcBikes]

First gen 250r's are great to part out

[bkm]

An extended swingarm should actually help keep the front tire from pushing as much. The front end really likes to push, especially when it's slick.
I thought you were leaving and never coming back? You should try politics with empty promises like this.

[nicker71]

Just got this beast, love it! Would like to hear opinions on upgrades. Forks, extended swing arm, wider axle, carb and motor work? Runs good and got this trike for a decent price. So I wouldn't mind spending a bit of money on it. I kinda think I like the stock forks with the wider tire.

Run a larger carb 34-36mm, aftermarket exhaust, aftermarket reeds, one tooth larger front sprocket, and swap out the rear hubs to a 4/110 hub and wheel setup. Run a 20" sport tire in the rear to help with sliding. This will really wake up the machine. Another common mod is to switch to a 200x front end setup but I haven't got any experience with that. I've ridden a 82 with a old school works shock in the rear that is longer and offers more travel, and it was a huge improvement over the stocker.

[oldskool83]

200x front end, 85/86 front fender. extended swinger 2 inches, put 18's and 400ex hubs on it and offset rims. I have a extra set of 400ex hubs if needed. $50 shipped with fresh powder coated in red. renthal CR hi bend bars, YZ85 front master cylinder and ASV levers.

[loganm]

You should build a rack on the front fender and mount a CR85 engine to it and have 3 wheel drive

[rustyhondas]

Lol that looks like my house

[barnett468]

Ok, first of all, I am far from the foremost authority on this particular bike, however, a bike is a bike and they all must adhere to the same physics, so I threw together some stuff for you in addition to what has already been mentioned . I also posted where you can get many of the things . Some of the items have already been mentioned by others.

I addition to the shops I listed, I would also send a pm to atc007 and manbearpig and ask what they have . I think atc007 had a couple extended swingarms at one point and may have some of the other things on the list . manbearpig may also have some . The hubs posted by oldschool83 are a deal . I would buy them asap if you want 4 bolt wheels . I would also get a photo of the swingarm stoshu has and post it and people can let you know what they think . Not all swingarms are created equal and there are some I definitely wouldn't use.

There are a lot of options and they depend on how you will be riding the bike . Below is just one combo that will make it much more performance oriented but still far short of a full on race bike . It will make it noticeably harder to maneuver on tight trails but very few people ride trails like that frequently if ever . It will make it noticeably easier to slide and FAR less tippy in a turn, but it will make the ride a little more bumpy on some terrain . It will reduce rear end traction but that is easily compensated with tires and by simply sitting slightly farther rearward on the seat like maybe 1". It will reduce its tendency to wheelie . If you like to wheelie more than you like to slide, don't put a longer swing arm on it.


SWINGARM ............ 3" longer
HUBS .................... Used Honda 4 bolt X 110 mm spacing.
WHEELS ................ Used 9" ATC250R or used Douglass 9" or 10"
CYLINDER HEAD ..... Modify to increase compression.
CYLINDER .............. Used 84 ATC250R or mildly port yours.
EXHAUST ............... DG silencer.
CARB ..................... Used 83/84 250R 30 mm or Chinese Keihin or Mikuni 30 or 32.
SPARK PLUG ........... B9ES if compression is higher than 180 psi.
REAR SHOCK .......... Buy spring and revalve yours.
FRONT FORKS ........ 10w oil and heavier sprigs if necessary.
REAR TIRES ........... 20 x 11w x 9 or 20 X 11W X 10
FORK STOPS .......... Cut each one around 1/4".
AIR FILTER ............. Uni Filter.
AIR BOX LID .......... Drill 4 1" holes or remove it.
BRAKE HOSE .......... Steel braided.
BRAKE FLUID ......... Anything other than silicon base . Dot 4 is fine.
BOYSEN REEDS ...... PRO SERIES
STEERING ............. Steering damper if you ride high speeds.

I posted the specs below so you can easily see the differences between the bikes.

MODEL ................... WHEELBASE . WIDTH ..... FT WT DRY ..... RR WT DRY ...... CASTOR .. FT TRAIL . CARB

ATC 250R 81 & 82 .......... 47.1 ....... 42.3 ..... 117.0 . 38.7% . 185.0 . 63.5% ...... 40.0 ....... 1.80" .. 27 mm

3" swingarm, 2" spacers* 51.1 ........ 46.3 ..... 126.5 . 41.8% . 175.5 . 58.2% ...... 30.0 ...... 1.80" ...... ?

ATC 250R 83 ................. 49.6 ........ 42.1 ..... 117.0 . 39.9% .. 176.0 . 66.4% ..... 30.5 ...... 1.30" ... 30 mm

ATC250R 84 .................. 50.2 ........ 43.1 ....... SHOWS WET WEIGHT ONLY ......... 30.5 ...... 1.30" ... 30 mm

ATC 250R 85 ................. 51.0 ........ 44.1 ..... 117.0 . 40.2% .. 174.0 . 59.8% ..... 21.0* .... 1.45" ... 34 mm

ATC 250R 86 ................. 51.4 ........ 44.5 ..... 116.0 . 40.1% .. 173.0 . 59.9% ..... 21 30* ..... 1.49" ... 34 mm

TECATE . .84 & 85 ......... 50.4 ......... 43.9 ........... N/A ................ N/A ............... 24.0 ...... 1.57".... 32 mm
...
TECATE . .86 & 87 ......... 50.6 ......... 44.3 ........... N/A ................ N/A ............... 24.0 ...... 1.89" ... 34 mm

* The 4" wider axle will make the width the same as a pair of 2" wide wheel spacers . Some of the 4 x 110 hubs like the TRX300EX and TRZ400EX will increase the width by at least 1/2" per side . Many offset rims like the 85/86 ATC250R has will increase the width by around 1" per side.

* I think the 85 ATC250R castor number in the manual is for the steering head . I think both the 85 and 86 had staggered tripple trees and that the 30 number for the 86 is the castor of the forks themselves, ie. steering head 21 and forks 30.


X TIRES & WHEELS

In my experience, the best all around performance combo is a 10 diameter x 8.5 wide rim with a 20 diameter x 11 wide x 10 tire which just so happens to be exactly what the 86 Tecate has . This combo will make the ride noticeably bumpier over hard, rough terrain . If you don't want a bumpy ride and are willing to give up a little sliding ability, I would use a 9" or 8" rim with a similar diameter tire . The stock tire for your bike is 22 x 11 x 8 and the stock rim is 8 x 8.5.

With the 4 x 110 mm hubs, you can buy used 85/86 ATC250R rims from Ebay or buy new Douglas or possibly Mitchel rims.

4 plys on a tire are standard . 2 ply is useless . 6 ply is heavy but will reduce the chance for punctures over sharp rocks etc.

You can sometimes find deals on used wheels on Ebay but be careful because some are bent or dinged up.

If you ride on different terrains like hard pack dirt and moderately soft dirt and sand, this tire is one of many that would work well . Be careful when choosing a tire pattern because some will make it fairly hard to slide . If you ride on sand mainly, you should consider a paddle tire.


X REAR HUBS

You can fit both 9" and 10" rims to the 4 x 110 hubs that stoshu mentioned . You will may only find 8" rims for your stock hubs but I would not use stamped steel hubs for anything other than just cruising up and down the driveway . You can buy 4 x 110 factory hubs used on Ebay dirt cheap . Below is a partial list . New hubs will cost around $215 from Dura Blue . If you are on a budget by oldschools83 hubs.

Used 4 x 110 hubs for 9" & 10" rims

ATC200ES .84 . Stamped steel
ATC200X . .86-87 . Will increase width slightly
TRX250X ALL . Will increase width slightly
TRX300EX All . Will increase width slightly
TRX400EX All . Will increase width slightly
G Force aluminum........... Will increase width by 3"

DURA BLUE - Steel, standard offset p/n 201334 . 1" extended p/n 201334x . $224.00

http://durablue.com/prod_display/hubs_-_rear/10/0.php.htm


LONE STAR RACING - Billet aluminum 1" ? offset p/n 12-401.

http://lsracing.com/


X WHEEL SPACERS

These can be used in place of the extended axle if you are on a budget . They will cause a little more flex in a standard swing arm and standard axle but that's not a big deal unless you are a pro level racer.


X REAR AXLE . New $613.00

Dura Blue makes a standard length and one that is 2" wider on each end, however, it only works with the 82 disc brake setup . The 81 & 82 axles are different because of the different braes . If you use the extended axle, it will make it 1" longer on each side than the 85 & 86 ATC250R axle is . If you use ATC250R wheels, it will make the width from the outside of the tires around 1" wider than the 85 - 86 ATC250R.

DURA BLUE P/N 20-1115sp . Specify if you want standard length or extended.

http://durablue.com/prod_display/axles/5/0.php.htm


X SWINGARM

I would run a 3" extended one . This length is the most common for the 81 & 82, however, any extended swingarms for the foolers are very hard to find . . You might send stoshu a pm and have him send a photo of the one he has and you can post it and people can offer their opinions on it . Not all swingarms are made the same and there are some incredible pos arms out there . Used ones are virtually impossible to come buy . Dura Blue, Westcoast and PK are a few of the companies that made them and they are all good . You can also have one custom made at the shop below if he doesn't already make them.

The 81's had a rear drum brake . The late 81's may have had a disc but the 82's definitely had a disc . The swingarms are identical for both years with the exception of the brake bracket.

http://hreatv.com/productionparts.html


STEEL BRAIDED BRAKE LINES

These will provide a firmer lever feel . You can buy them separately or in a set . If you install a rear disc with an extended swingarm, you can get the longer line from them 4" longer rear, HOWEVER, the 4" longer rear is based on the 85/86 models, so verify the exact length you need.

http://motorcycleparts2u.com/galfer-front-and-rear-brake-lines-mp2u082293


X CARBURETOR

It is VERY easy to over carburete a bike, especially that one . I would not use anything bigger than a 32 mm unless you do a lot of porting and run a lot of compression . A used 30 off an 83 or 84 ATC250R is decent upgrade or a new Mikuni VM30 or VM32 mm or a Keihin PE 30 or 32 mm . You can get a Chinese real Keihin carb on on Ebay but verify the size which will be stamped on the side because the sellers often state the incorrect size . You may need a different throttle cable.

USED 84 CARB WITH CABLE . $100.00 OR MAKE OFFER - The guy might take $70.00 or he can counter.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/498-1984-Honda-atc250r-atc-250-r-carburetor-carb-/391342626616?hash=item5b1dd69738:g:nOYAAOSwd0BV1Kk d&vxp=mtr


NEW MIKUNI 32-193 TWO STROKE CARB WITH RIGHT SIDE IDLE SCREW LIKE ORIG 250R CARB HAD

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_odkw=mikuni+vm32&_osacat=0&_from=R40&_trksid=p2045573.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.H0.Xmikuni+vm 32-193.TRS0&_nkw=mikuni+vm32-193&_sacat=0


X SPARK PLUG

If your kicking compression is around 180 or higher, I would try a B9ES plug . This is one step colder than the stock one which will reduce the potential for detonation.


X COMPRESSION AND HEAD GASKET

These engines probably have the lowest compression of any 2 stroke engine ever made by far . You MUST get the compression up if you want ANY significant increase in power . If you increase the compression enough, you will likely gain more power using a stock pipe with a straight thru silencer than you will if you leave the compression as is and put an aftermarket pipe on it . Increasing compression will increase power EVERYWHERE . Compression is your friend . If you increase compression, you will need to use premium gas instead of Kerosene.

Increasing compression is easy if you have the money . You can either buy an old DG ATC250R cylinder head OR have your head modified or possibly buy an 1984 ATC250R head . The 84 bike has much higher compression and a different p/n than the previous years so I can only guess that it has a much smaller combustion chamber, however, a true 84 head will be extremely hard to find . If the chamber is smaller, it will increase your static compression from an abysmal 6.6 to a much better 7.3, however, you benefit even more by running just a little bit more compression than that, unfortunately a real 84 head is hard to come buy and the Ebay ads are often incorrect . You can send Harry Klemm an email and ask him if he will modify your head or if he knows someone that will, however I did include the info for a couple other shops that can also do it.

This gets a bit complicated without doing some detailed calculations, however, my "guestimate" is that you can increase your compression to around 7.7 static/uncorrected with your stock port timing and not have detonation with premium gas and a straight thru silencer . If you have the cylinder ported a little, which would include raising the exhaust port at least .5 mm, you could run maybe 8.0 . The 84/85 Tecates have 8.3 . I don't know how much the DG heads will raise it.

There are two DG heads on Ebay right now for only $500.00 each, lol . They will also make your engine both run and look cooler .

STATIC COMPRESSION

81-82 ARC250R ...... 6.6:1
83 ..... ATC250R ......6.7:1
84 ...... ATC250R .... 7.3:1

84 ATC250R cyl head p/n 12200-964-670

BEAT DG HEAD . $500.00

http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/361398225137?ul_noapp=true&chn=ps&lpid=82


NICE DG HEAD . $500.00

http://www.ebay.com/itm/HONDA-ATC250R-250R-DG-SUNBURST-HEAD-NICE-RARE-163C-/121892978492?hash=item1c61633f3c:g:hw0AAOSwUuFWviq I&vxp=mtr


FOR CYLINDER HEAD COMPRESSION MODS . $125.00 - $250.00

The cheapest mod would be to have your head milled . This will require that a new squish band also be made but this is easy and could probably even be done by a high school machine shop if you of any . They should also have the piston that you plan to use because not all brands of pistons have the same dome shape and it is helpful to match the squish band shape to the piston fairly closely to reduce the potential for detonation.

HARRY KLEMM E MAIL - groupklemmail.com


RK TEK - http://www.2strokeheads.com/VintageMX.htm


DICKS RACING - https://www.dicksracing.com/motorcycle_performance


X CYLINDER MODIFICATION

Harry Klemm or Jason Hall for porting or buy an 84 ATC250R cylinder.


X PIPE & SILENCER

Bassani, Kerker Mugen, Cobra and Bills Pipes are just some of the companies that made pipes for those and they occasionally show up on Ebay . DG currently makes pipes for them . The DG silencer also fits at least the Mugen pipe and and I have also seen it on a stock pipe . You can buy just the silencer first to see if it gives you enough added power . If it doesn't, then buy a pipe . All the older pipes are extremely rare but you can periodically check Ebay for them.

Another option is a Bills Pipe . He may still have the jig to make them but a true cone pipe would be expensive . He may make formed pipes also though.

http://www.billspipes.com/

DG pipe p/n 01-2011, silencer p/n 20-2214.

http://dgperformance.com/dg-performance-models2.php?category=Honda&model=ATC%20250R&appYear=1981&prodType=Exhaust

Cheaper on Ebay

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_odkw=dg+silencer+20-2214&_osacat=0&_from=R40&_trksid=p2045573.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.H0.Xdg+exhaus t+pipe+01-2011.TRS0&_nkw=dg+exhaust+pipe+01-2011&_sacat=0

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2047675.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.H0.Xdg+silenc er+20-2214.TRS0&_nkw=dg+silencer+20-2214&_sacat=0


X HIGH PERFORMANCE REEDS

Boysen Pro Reeds

http://www.boyesen.com/pro-series-reeds-20.html

You can also sometimes bend the metal reed stops open a little more, however, I wouldn't try this unless you know how because you could damage them.


X CYLINDER PORTING

A mild port job with the increase in compression will create a very noticeable increase in power . Porting the cylinder will cost a little power loss in the lower rpm range.

If you are on a budget but are handy with a dye grinder, you can raise the top of the exhaust port .5 mm and widen it 1 mm on each side then re-chamfer the edges slightly afterwards.

Remove 1.5 mm from the rear of the piston skirt . Use a large round file and file out the center leaving around 15 mm on each side untouched . You could actually put holes in the rear of the piston but I would try this minimum mod first to see if you get the level of power you want . You can always remove more later if you want but it's kinda hard to put it back.

Modify bottom of piston like the one on the right but don't remove as much material . The left is actually a stock Kawasaki 350 Big Horn rotary valve engine piston and the right is a forged Yamaha one Harry Klemm modified the skirt on for higher perf.

.................................................. .............https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSCYj5dAwYi7MANGvd6p2Ym8C6loRiwS LEB8hg5u3WrXdA-Q9bL


X SUSPENSION

A 3" extended swingarm will increase the rear travel by around 10% which isn't much . If you use the stock forks and shocks and determine it is too soft, you can get stiffer springs and get the rear revalved or just rebuilt at the site below.

You can make the front a little stiffer by using 10wt oil and adding a 3/4" long piece of pcv tubing to the top of the spring.

http://racetech.com/ProductSearch/3/Honda/ATC250R/1981-85


Here's the Works Performance shock that mentioned however, it needs rebuilding and the spring rate and valving may not be ideal for your app . Works can rebuild it or they can possibly make a new one for you.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1981-1982-Honda-ATC-250r-Vintage-Works-Performance-rear-shock-ATC250R-ahrma-fox-/182025540024?hash=item2a619151b8:g:U5gAAOSwcdBWS7J t&vxp=mtr

http://www.worksperformance.com/



All these tires are good for sliding.

Standard ITP Holeshot 4 ply 20x11x9 p/n 532032 . 20x11x10 p/n 532035 . $80.00

http://www.bikebandit.com/tires-tubes/motorcycle-tires/itp-holeshot-atv-tire

........http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51s%2Bs9V9-tL._SY300_.jpg


ITP Holeshot SR radial 4 ply 20x10x9 p/n 537203

http://www.itptires.com/cms_uploads/Holeshot_SR.png


MAXXIS RAZR MX ply ? These may be discontinued so check Ebay and ply rating . $132.00

http://www.ebay.ca/itm/MAXXIS-RAZR-MX-M932-20x11x10-REAR-ATV-TIRE-/371130587822

......http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MzEwWDMxMA==/z/QA8AAOSwPe1T-72j/$_35.JPG


Kenda K300 Dominator 4 ply 20x11x9 and 20x11x10 . $83.00

http://www.bikebandit.com/tires-tubes/motorcycle-tires/kenda-k300-dominator-atv-tire

......http://images.motorcycle-superstore.com/productimages/300/0000-kenda-k300-dominator-sport-rear-tire-mcss.jpg


Sedona Bazooka 4 ply 20x11x9 and 20x11x10 . $68.00

http://www.bikebandit.com/tires-tubes/motorcycle-tires/sedona-bazooka-mx-x-country-atv-tire

http://cdn1.bikebandit-images.com/product_images/se/450/sedona-bazooka-mxx-country-atv-tire.jpg
.

[atc300r]

Keep stock frontend they work well. Plus 3 swingarm is plenty rebuild rear shock or try and find a works. 4-6 inches wider is also plenty. You can still buy new DG full exhaust. If you can find a used one Bassani is realy good.Up grade your intake to the DG style. 34 mill carb .I think Mossbarger still makes and sells this style intake. 228557 228556

[Buck Snort]

Holy! Thanks! Very appreciated. Gives me lots of options. Your post will be saved into my favorites. Thanks again Barnett.

[Buck Snort]

Nice R! Pretty much what I want.
Keep stock frontend they work well. Plus 3 swingarm is plenty rebuild rear shock or try and find a works. 4-6 inches wider is also plenty. You can still buy new DG full exhaust. If you can find a used one Bassani is realy good.Up grade your intake to the DG style. 34 mill carb .I think Mossbarger still makes and sells this style intake. 228557 228556

[atc300r]

Here is what I believe to be a Bassani full exhaust first gen 250r . https://sandiego.craigslist.org/esd/snw/5471728334.html

[barnett468]

Unfortunately that pipe is not a cone pipe, plus there is no identification on it, therefore its value as a vintage/collector pipe is not very much imo . It is also definitely not a Klemm pipe.

[nicker71]

Here is what I believe to be a Bassani full exhaust first gen 250r . https://sandiego.craigslist.org/esd/snw/5471728334.html

Yep, looks like a bassani to me.

I have a pretty nice restored Bassani exhaust system for the first gen with chrome guard I'd sell. PM me if your interested.