250R basket case build, fresh motor, keeps head siezing.

[loganm]

Back together again. Bottom end is good, but I was riding last night in 25~F degree weather and it heat siezed just cruising back home. Started it up again and it seized up right away. Doesn't make sense, I was running it hard for a bit before then was just cruising home and it locks up. I thought I killed it for good there wasn't much compression but it came back after a bit. Could this be from the carb not being big enough? Did not come with a top end when I bought it, bought one off eBay, had some porting done to it already, and sleeved. Running a straight K&N on the stock carb, 3/8" reed spacer (this is new, was not on it last time before I tore it back apart) stock exhaust, no muffler. I ran the carb dry before I parked it, gonna see if I can order a larger main jet, try that first.

This is my 4th time rebuilding this motor. Put 5th in backwards the first time, which caused me a host of problems leading to have to rebuild the whole motor 4 times. I think I got the bottom end right this time. I still have no idea where the one washer goes that caused me to rebuild it 4 times. I have looked at all the parts diagrams, I have everything there, so not too worried about it. It's a small thrust washer, same as the one on the end of the shift shaft before the outer case goes on. Can't go on any transmission shafts. End of the kickstarter shaft and the shift shaft are the only options.

Edit: Looking at parts diagrams I have the wrong washer between the kickstarter gears. I don't know where the one that I have in there came from, but it doesn't seem to be causing a problem. So it's staying for now.

I took it for some top speed runs just now. ~45F outside. I added a little gas in the tank since I know I was mixed too oil-rich before. Topped out at 60 mph, didn't heat sieze it.

[John_Neary]

You post is lacking some info like what year is your 250R motor is since aircooled and watercool engines do not always seize for the same reasons. Also you really, really should consider taking the head off and having a look inside as there is no such thing a gentle seizure and its very likely that your sleeve has a good part of alloy stuck to it that formally was attached to your piston.

To much oil oddly enough will cause a engine to run lean as the added thickness in viscosity it adds to the fuel reduces the amount of fuel the jets can move so if you had some 1 to 10 mixture or something weird that could very easily cause it to run lean.

The stock carb combined with a ported cylinder and no muffler will cause the engine to run lean and could make it overheat. If you honestly want assistance you need to provide a lot more info for us to work with, a picture of the spark plug that was run in the bike would be a good start so we can tell you if it was lean when last run.

You should seriously consider taking the engine/bike to a local bike shop and have them pressure test your engine, even a tiny air leak will cause issues and can make the engine seize up.

[barnett468]

.
yup.

however, a small carb size wont actually cause a seizure because all it does is regu;ate the amount of air entering the cylinder . . for example if you have a tiny carb and open the throttle all the way, it might be letting in the same amount of air as a big carb that was only at half throttle and since running a big carb at 1/2 throttle wont cause an engine to seize, a small one wont either unless the jets are too small making the mixture lean.

a plug that is hotter than stock can cause problems.

incorrect ignition timing can cause probs.

using lower octane gas than is needed to suppress detonation can cause prob.

an air leak can cause probs . . i would pressure test it before taking it apart.

you can leave the head on and remove the exhaust pipe and look at the piston thru the export to see if that side seized.

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[John_Neary]

sorry i was not clear on that, i should of said stock jets, not stock carb. Thanks Barnett for correcting that :)

[barnett468]

sorry i was not clear on that, i should of said stock jets, not stock carb. Thanks Barnett for correcting that :)

Sure, no prob....but hey...don't feel bad, I'm usually not clear on much of anything.


Ya sure got that right Barn!

http://www.picgifs.com/graphics/l/laughing/graphics-laughing-867787.gif
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[loganm]

I don't think it's detonating. I pulled it apart after the first time and it showed no signs of it. Did a plug chop today after a wash. Pulled it and the plug is black and dry around the ceramic and plug end. However, first time it heat siezed I was running it hard on a wet day. The other night I was riding it on icy snowy roads. I am running a straight K&N filter on the back of the carb. So I'm thinking it's a possibility that it sucked up some moisture flung up from the tires. I'm going to get a fresh plug and do a plug chop with it when I get the chance. I have not pulled the top end yet. I haven't pulled the carb either to see what size jets I have. I had the needle all the way down the first time. The engine will not rev out under full throttle otherwise. Unless you walk it up the revs. Plug is an NGK BR8ES I think.

I should've mentioned it's an 82. Head and cylinder are black so 83-84 on those possibly.

Regardless of whether it was the cause of it or not, I'm thinking of cutting a large gatorade bottle in half and bolting it to the back of the filter, so the air intake comes from the area around the back of the carburetor instead of all sides of the filter.

Running 91 octane. How would I go about pressure testing it? Fresh gaskets, crank seals. I know there's a bit of a groove on the crank where the seal rides, but a crank seal leak would cause hard-starting wouldn't it? It starts right up.

Also, when I bought it the piston that was on it was a few mm oversized from the one in it now. It was missing a chunk of piston above the top ring, at the front of the piston, right by the ring stop. Guy I bought it from said he thought the piston was installed backwards maybe. I don't know about that.

[John_Neary]

The air leak test requires a few special items is why i figured it be easier to just have a local bike shop test it for you, i will link a pressure test kit so you get a idea of what it is as well as a great article about the hows and whys of why its so important to always leak test a engine after a rebuild or disassembly.

It is not complex and you could build one yourself if you are on a shoe string budget. One thing to note you MUST do the test correctly or you will blow out your case seals so don't just jump into this in till you understand exactly how to do it properly.

Basic test kit - http://www.rscycles.com/product_p/ldtest_rs125.htm

This excellent article explains why air leaks are so bad and why everyone should test for them every time a engine is taken apart.

http://www.klemmvintage.com/airleaks.htm

Again you can mess up your engine if you do the test wrong so if you have any questions be sure to ask. Guys on the forum here like John Tice know vastly more than myself about how engines work so don't be shy about asking more questions, they are busy folks so might take a few days for a response.

[loganm]

There is literally such a small amount of joints to test for leaks. airfilter->carb->intake boot->reed cage-> reed spacer. All within the span of 6 inches. I won't take anything to a shop for anything short of machine work tbh.

I know I'll probably need at the very least a good hone job and rings, which I MIGHT be able to get by on, for a bit at least. Not exactly in the budget ATM. And on top of that I'm wanting to fab up a new front end, and extended swingarm, but not until I'm confident in the motor.

[John_Neary]

No its not usually the carb track that normally leaks,its the base gasket area that likes to suck air because you got three objects coming into contract there with the two case halves and the cylinder and even the tiniest pinhole size leak can and will cause overheating, inconsistent jetting and seizing if bad enough.

Good luck with it.

[Jmoozy27]

Okay, you asked for advice on why your motor took a shitt and got really good answers from 2 pro 3 wheeler racers. :idea:

What exactly do you want to know? :wondering

Sounds like you need to get all of the necessary parts like a silencer and a good filter. If you don't know what jets are in the carb then it's quite clear that you never rejetted it after the rebuild and porting. Don't run a half azz build are it won't run for very long. Just my opinion.

[barnett468]

.
heres a short video of a leak down test . . if it leaks you need to remove the flywheel and check that seal also as well as the clutch side seal.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdq7NRcUIp8

[loganm]

Nothing is wrong with running a K&N filter on the back of the carb. And a silencer is not necessarily necessary. I considered building one myself but CBA. No I did not rejet it after rebuilding it, I rode it some and did a couple plug chops, did not get to the point of dialing in the jetting yet. I'm not a fully equipped engine shop.

I'll get to looking for vacuum leaks this week. It could very well be a base gasket leak. But I'm not 100% sure I didn't suck some snow/water in through the filter either. I asked what the potential source of my engine heat-seizing could be. But nobody is going to be able to diagnose it through forum posts.

[barnett468]

.
the dry black plug means its too rich . . this can be caused by too much oil on the filter or too big of a jet or too much oil . . old school castor oil used to blacken plugs also.

the water wouldn't make it seize . . it would only cool the piston and cyl a little . . i have gotten water in my engines many times.

if the bore is too tight it will seize, especially when it is cold out.

if your fuel gets cold enough, the oil can separate from the gas.

[loganm]

Too much oil will make it run LEAN. Oil separates from gas once it enters the crankcase. I've seen so many people backwards on this. Oil in a 2 stroke is not burned, not as fuel at least. A little bit will burn in the combustion process due to the nature of the engine, and a little bit also makes it out the tailpipe for that same reason.

[John Tice]

All of the air leak tests are correct & proper. Sometimes a shot around the cylinder with soapy water will turn up a leak. Did you ever think that your cylinder bore is just plain worn out? It sounds like you’ve had a lot of hard riding on your machine.


John Tice
503-593-2908 Alternate 541-508-3944
www.smallenginemachineworks.com & www.nwsleeve.com
Turning Custom Cylinder Sleeves Since 1971

[loganm]

All of the air leak tests are correct & proper. Sometimes a shot around the cylinder with soapy water will turn up a leak. Did you ever think that your cylinder bore is just plain worn out? It sounds like you’ve had a lot of hard riding on your machine.


John Tice
503-593-2908 Alternate 541-508-3944
www.smallenginemachineworks.com & www.nwsleeve.com
Turning Custom Cylinder Sleeves Since 1971

I have at most 2 hours on this top end. But after heat siezing it 3 times it probably is not in the best of condition. On an unrelated note, anyone know what the stock triple clamps are made of? Guessing aluminum, hoping steel. I want inverted forks and I'm on a tight budget. I have the fabrication skills.

Edit: They appear to be steel.

[barnett468]

Too much oil will make it run LEAN.

This is correct, plus the more oil there is mixed with the gas, the less combustible the mix becomes.



Oil separates from gas once it enters the crankcase. I've seen so many people backwards on this. Oil in a 2 stroke is not burned, not as fuel at least. A little bit will burn in the combustion process due to the nature of the engine, and a little bit also makes it out the tailpipe for that same reason.

This is basically correct, and oddly enough, the higher the rpm, the faster it goes thru the engine, which is technically called "Oil Migration", therefore, the higher an engine spins, the more oil it needs.


These things being said, they have nothing to do with some types of oil falling out of suspension and/or creating a gel if the temps get low enough.

[barnett468]

I have at most 2 hours on this top end. But after heat siezing it 3 times it probably is not in the best of condition.

Probably not, but if the scratches in the cylinder are light enough, and the bore is on the tight side for the temperatures you are riding in, you can get it power honed on a professional machine . . Honing it with a basic hand held hone can make the bore untrue.



On an unrelated note, anyone know what the stock triple clamps are made of? Guessing aluminum, hoping steel. I want inverted forks and I'm on a tight budget. I have the fabrication skills.

Edit: They appear to be steel.

Just see if a magnet sticks to them . . If it sticks, they are steel, if it doesn't, they are not.

Jason Hall has some info on putting inverted forks on these bikes so you can send him a PM if he doesn't post on here, and a few other people here also do, however, you will get way more responses if you make a new thread for this topic.

.

[loganm]

Probably not, but if the scratches in the cylinder are light enough, and the bore is on the tight side for the temperatures you are riding in, you can get it power honed on a professional machine . . Honing it with a basic hand held hone can make the bore untrue.




Just see if a magnet sticks to them . . If it sticks, they are steel, if it doesn't, they are not.

Jason Hall has some info on putting inverted forks on these bikes so you can send him a PM if he doesn't post on here, and a few other people here also do, however, you will get way more responses if you make a new thread for this topic.

.

I saw rust on them, pretty sure they're steel. Hopefully forged and not cast, I'm not brazing up triple clamps. I'm thinking CR125 forks, cut off the ends of the triple clamps and narrow them up, not running this big balloon tire. I'll have to do some research on this. I'm certified in just about the easiest welding cert. to get, but I know my way around a welder. I'll make a build thread when I have all the parts I want together.

[loganm]

Apparently the bottom is steel and top aluminum.

[barnett468]

+
I saw rust on them, pretty sure they're steel. Hopefully forged and not cast, I'm not brazing up triple clamps. I'm thinking CR125 forks, cut off the ends of the triple clamps and narrow them up, not running this big balloon tire. I'll have to do some research on this. I'm certified in just about the easiest welding cert. to get, but I know my way around a welder. I'll make a build thread when I have all the parts I want together.


There are a lot of tire options and you may also be able to get a different sized rim if you want . . someone here gets bulk buys on them occasionally and you can sometimes find used ones on ebay . . Rocky Mountain is the biggest tire supplier i know of and they have great prices and quick shipping that i think is only $7.00 anywhere n the US.

The best overall amount of plies on a tire is 4 . . 2 plies are soft and therefore mushy and try to roll under the rim when a bike is cornered hard and 4 plies are heavy and overkill unless you ride over sharp things . . posting a separate tire thread would also be helpful because you will get a lot of good suggestions . . just post your riding style and type of terrain and max price range so people can suggest the best options for your particular app.

https://www.rockymountainatvmc.com/

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[Dirtcrasher]

Barnett has been very helpful in this thread. As well as a few others.

Honestly though, clearances, air leaks and jetting are all simple stuff you can do yourself.

But if you aren't sure if something is aluminum or steel, PLEASE don't weld..... Magnesium or Titanium, I get that.

I have torches, an arc, mig, tig, BP mill and a SB lathe but it doesn't mean I know how to use them.

Be careful, some homemade changes can happen at a really bad time and maybe kill ya.

[barnett468]

.
OOPS POST CORRECTION BECAUSE I STILL DON'T HAVE AN EDIT BUTTON :p

"and 4 plies are heavy and overkill unless you ride over sharp things "

Should read:

"and 6 plies are heavy and overkill unless you ride over sharp things"
.

[loganm]

Barnett has been very helpful in this thread. As well as a few others.

Honestly though, clearances, air leaks and jetting are all simple stuff you can do yourself.

But if you aren't sure if something is aluminum or steel, PLEASE don't weld..... Magnesium or Titanium, I get that.

I have torches, an arc, mig, tig, BP mill and a SB lathe but it doesn't mean I know how to use them.

Be careful, some homemade changes can happen at a really bad time and maybe kill ya.

I've never heard of magnesium or titanium triple clamps on anything, especially factory. Anything important such as triple clamps that I weld on this will be near x-ray quality at the least. I have a tendency to way overbuild everything. But now it's looking like I'll need to hire a machine shop to make triple clamps for me.

[82 250r]

I have had this happen on my 82 250r and it was always caused by lean jetting with my stock carb. The stock carb does not like anything other than stock jetting from my experience.
If you have a forged piston, it has likely scored the piston on the "4 corners" and needs a top end rebuild.

There is a reason Honda changed carbs in 83-84. I personally don't think they got it right until 86.

If it were mine, i would run a 84 carb with stock jetting as a starting point & rebuild the top end. I also prefer a cast piston on the air cooled stuff because the forged are easier to cold seize.

If i understand correctly, you don't have a silencer? The silencer is part of the 2 stroke design. There is a need for back-pressure and running without it can cause overheating. It will run without it, and then overheat.

Hope this helps
Marc

[oscarmayer]

My assumption is your having an issue similar to what we had once before. The cylinder to piston wall clearances were too tight and when the piston got hot enough it grabbed the cylinder walls. Eventually enough to damage the cylinder and piston. You may need to find a better machine shop or have your cylinder checked to the piston tolerances. I am sure you may have other stuff going on but if you seize the motor you would damage the cylinder as well as piston and crank bearings and rod become questionable. If we seize a motor. Everything gets replaced. Only thing kept is trans gearing. All bearings seals and gadgets. As well as new crank assembly and water pump. I will also replace the entire top end and send the old off for complete rework.
Good luck.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Jmoozy27]

I've never heard of magnesium or titanium triple clamps on anything, especially factory. Anything important such as triple clamps that I weld on this will be near x-ray quality at the least. I have a tendency to way overbuild everything. But now it's looking like I'll need to hire a machine shop to make triple clamps for me.

Not using a silencer and using a Gatorade bottle airbox is not overbuilding. It's being lazy and rushing a build.

How about a few pics of your build for us to check out so we can get an idea of what your working with...

[El Camexican]

After reading all this it seems like you might be way lean on your pilot jet and needle. You said "all the way down" as in clip at the top? If so, that combined with a slightly plugged pilot jet, cold air a clamp on filter, a slight air leak and a tight fitting piston and your all set to seize it at low RPM. Where's your air screw at? More than 2 turns out?

However you MUST do that leak-down test you've been told about. There is no substitute for it. Once that's out of the way your list of things it could be get a lot shorter.

If your engine won't rev out with the needle clip in the middle or near it your main jet may be too large, that would give you that dark plug chop as well which has nothing to do with your low RPM jetting.

[John Tice]

All of the info about jetting & air leaks; maybe so, but maybe you should take the cylinder back to the place who did the bore, confront them about maybe an improper skirt clearance in the first place. On the other hand maybe you should go someplace else who does a better job.

Truth about hone heads; A power hone many times uses the same head as an electric drill. The key is who’s using a Sunnen hone head? We use automatic vertical & horizontal power hones which all use the same hone head as our electric drill. “Sunnen’s the best"
Log on & take a look

John Tice
503-593-2908 Alternate 541-508-3944
www.smallenginemachineworks.com & www.nwsleeve.com
Turning Custom Cylinder Sleeves Since 1971

[loganm]

All of the info about jetting & air leaks; maybe so, but maybe you should take the cylinder back to the place who did the bore, confront them about maybe an improper skirt clearance in the first place. On the other hand maybe you should go someplace else who does a better job.

Truth about hone heads; A power hone many times uses the same head as an electric drill. The key is who’s using a Sunnen hone head? We use automatic vertical & horizontal power hones which all use the same hone head as our electric drill. “Sunnen’s the best"
Log on & take a look

John Tice
503-593-2908 Alternate 541-508-3944
www.smallenginemachineworks.com & www.nwsleeve.com
Turning Custom Cylinder Sleeves Since 1971

I need to call them and ask about it. It's 1.5 hours away, not driving there just to ask why my engine is heat siezing, when I haven't even done any tests on it.


After reading all this it seems like you might be way lean on your pilot jet and needle. You said "all the way down" as in clip at the top? If so, that combined with a slightly plugged pilot jet, cold air a clamp on filter, a slight air leak and a tight fitting piston and your all set to seize it at low RPM. Where's your air screw at? More than 2 turns out?

However you MUST do that leak-down test you've been told about. There is no substitute for it. Once that's out of the way your list of things it could be get a lot shorter.

If your engine won't rev out with the needle clip in the middle or near it your main jet may be too large, that would give you that dark plug chop as well which has nothing to do with your low RPM jetting.

Air screw is probably at 1.5 or 2.5, I'll have to check.


Not using a silencer and using a Gatorade bottle airbox is not overbuilding. It's being lazy and rushing a build.

How about a few pics of your build for us to check out so we can get an idea of what your working with...

I think you are confusing this with a restoration. It came like this. Not spending money I don't need to spend. I'll get pics of the setup tonight, as well as the top end when I pull it.

[oscarmayer]

you need to pull the top end off and look at the piston and cylinder. i am willing to bet both are scorched badly at this point. ignoring it and not pulling it apart will not make it go away.
if you want a good quality company that can certainly do the job right the first time, www.lukesracing.com tell him mike wichter sent ya from Texas. You just ship your cyninder and head and he does the rest. while it is out, you need to completely redo your carb. 2 sizes larger than your running now, new rubber boot for the intake, 2 sizes up idle jet. and start from there. the entire carb should be completely dissembled, cleaned and reassembled with NEW parts......
I really feel your pissing $ away and not doing things right, more half way and then complaining about it not working when your not doing everything 100%. Witht he $ you have spent trying to make it right 4 times now, you could have had it 100% done already the first time by a knowledgeable shop. This is your first motor isn't it? well you picked a pita motor as far as parts and gearing goes. sure there are lots of parts, but they cost a premium.. you shoulda done a 200x or 200s motor first or better yet a 70 motor as your first case redo. Continuing to miss parts and mis-installing stuff is not a good thing. if it is wrong, take it apart and FIX it right the first time.. do not get in a rush. if your list, send the bottom end to someone to do for you. it will save you $ in the long run. I'm not trying to be a jerk to you, but I want you to understand you are your own worst enemy. I hope your learning a valuable and expensive lesson here. with all the resources on this site, you could have avoided all of this.

what ever you decide good luck. if it was me, i would ship the entire motor to luke's and say fix it like new or better. in about 6-8 weeks you would get a call and a returned package saying thank you and enjoy..

[barnett468]

I need to call them and ask about it. It's 1.5 hours away, not driving there just to ask why my engine is heat siezing, when I haven't even done any tests on it.

Based on the info you supplied, I still think the main cause is that the bore is a little tight as I previously mentioned . . Although you may also have an air leak, it is uncommon for a leak that is so small that it does not cause your idle to be high or not rev down quickly to cause a lean enough condition for a bike to seize with the throttle open, especially when the dry black color of the spark plug suggests it is running rich.

There are condtitions when an air cooled bike can seize after a long high speed run if the throttle is suddenly shut off because there is insufficient gas and oil mixture to lubricate it sufficiently . . This was a problem with desert racers in the Jurassic days because they were almost always at, or near WOT, so one of the cures I used was to file a small flat spot on the jet needle near the top so it would still allow fuel in with the throttle closed . . This of course caused it to idle like crap or basically not idle at all, but I didn't race with the throttle closed so that didn't matter to me.


MEASURING PISTON CLEARANCE

If you don't have the tools to do this, you can "guestimate" it by taking a piece of regular lined school paper around 2" long and 3/8" wide then stick half the length of the paper in the front or rear of the cylinder from the bottom side then simply install the piston without the rings on into the bottom of the cylinder top first and try to gently push it all the way thru . . If it takes a fair amount of force, imo, your clearance is too small for your particular app . . If it goes past the paper with basically no effort at all, it is not too tight imo, which means that something else other than a tight clearance caused the problem.



I'll get pics of the setup tonight, as well as the top end when I pull it.

I would take photos of the front and rear of the piston as well as the cylinder and might as well post one of the spark plug.

.

[loganm]

you need to pull the top end off and look at the piston and cylinder. i am willing to bet both are scorched badly at this point. ignoring it and not pulling it apart will not make it go away.
if you want a good quality company that can certainly do the job right the first time, www.lukesracing.com tell him mike wichter sent ya from Texas. You just ship your cyninder and head and he does the rest. while it is out, you need to completely redo your carb. 2 sizes larger than your running now, new rubber boot for the intake, 2 sizes up idle jet. and start from there. the entire carb should be completely dissembled, cleaned and reassembled with NEW parts......
I really feel your pissing $ away and not doing things right, more half way and then complaining about it not working when your not doing everything 100%. Witht he $ you have spent trying to make it right 4 times now, you could have had it 100% done already the first time by a knowledgeable shop. This is your first motor isn't it? well you picked a pita motor as far as parts and gearing goes. sure there are lots of parts, but they cost a premium.. you shoulda done a 200x or 200s motor first or better yet a 70 motor as your first case redo. Continuing to miss parts and mis-installing stuff is not a good thing. if it is wrong, take it apart and FIX it right the first time.. do not get in a rush. if your list, send the bottom end to someone to do for you. it will save you $ in the long run. I'm not trying to be a jerk to you, but I want you to understand you are your own worst enemy. I hope your learning a valuable and expensive lesson here. with all the resources on this site, you could have avoided all of this.

what ever you decide good luck. if it was me, i would ship the entire motor to luke's and say fix it like new or better. in about 6-8 weeks you would get a call and a returned package saying thank you and enjoy..

Sending it off to someone else negates the whole purpose of any of this. I created this thread simply asking for the probably causes of my engine heat-siezing, so I could do the work myself. All you've done is basically call me an incompetent moron. I already admitted that the fact that I had to re-do the bottom end 4 times was purely my fault. That's why you shouldn't build motors slightly drunk and blazed up.

I'm not spending $3k to have a professional rebuild the motor for me. I would've just bought a nicer bike already running if I wanted to do that.

I will try and call JSR performance tomorrow and see what they say. They're the ones who did the machine work. I'm almost thinking it's what barnett has been saying.

[barnett468]

I had to re-do the bottom end 4 times was purely my fault. That's why you shouldn't build motors slightly drunk and blazed up.

But where would the fun be in that!

http://i994.photobucket.com/albums/af61/slimkillz19/gifs/1293362253595.gif

[loganm]

But on the plus side I know the inner workings of this engine pretty damn well now.

[barnett468]

But on the plus side I know the inner workings of this engine pretty damn well now.

Hey whats with disliking my post, I was simply being funny because I can relate to your comment, but I guess if you don't like my posts, I won't make anymore.

[cbx1170]

I have not used a torque plate while boring honing but has anyone got any experience with or with out torque plate and issues on water cooled 250r. Other types and styles of motors it is a must. I use my sunnen hones and take my time. Plenty of time. Never had a problem.

[loganm]

Hey whats with disliking my post, I was simply being funny because I can relate to your comment, but I guess if you don't like my posts, I won't make anymore.

I think I clicked the wrong button lol

I don't get the hate. It's not like I came in here asking why I didn't have 5th gear or why it kept jumping out of 2nd. Obviously I'm not completely incompetent with a wrench. I figured those problems out myself.

The information I've gathered is pointing to either an air leak/jetting issue, or the bore is too tight. I just got back from the gym. Pics of the bottom end in a bit after my shower.

[barnett468]

I think I clicked the wrong button lol

Ahhhh, ha, ha, too much beer and too much blaze!


Don't worry about it, the "dislike" button is the one most people use for Barns posts.

http://www.picgifs.com/graphics/l/laughing/graphics-laughing-867787.gif

[barnett468]

I don't get the hate.

Oh, no one is hating on you I assure you, hating me seems to be enough for them . http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-laughing013.gif

Everyone really just wants to help you but different people simply do it in different ways, and because no one knows your level of ability or desire to fix it yourself, they just throw as many options out there as they can . . Yes some of the posts can sound a bit rough, but I can guarantee you with 110% certainty that if someone here was hatin you, you would have no question about it whatsoever.


Hey Barn...you're a f'n DICK!

http://www.picgifs.com/graphics/l/laughing/graphics-laughing-867787.gif

[barnett468]

.
...and you slept with El Camexicans goat.

http://www.picgifs.com/graphics/l/laughing/graphics-laughing-867787.gif

[loganm]

Alright here we go, substance. Main jet: 152. Pilot jet: 50. Carb is clean as a whistle. I made sure of that at the beginning of this project after I tore it all down and was super motivated.

First, my bang-up temporary exhaust hangar:

226964226965

Intake track:
226966

And a youtube video of the top end. Bearings are still tight. Piston pin came out hard, not surprising. Said screw it and used vice grips, AKA the best multi-tool known to man.
I'm thinking 1.) bore too tight 2.) ghost of an air leak that only pops up at the random most unopportune times.

This top end didn't come with the bike. As I said before, piston that came on the bike is visibly a few mm oversize, first thing I did when I rode it was check the plug. It was black which is why I did not touch anything but the needle.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TpXxLahqtks

I don't have the tools to measure clearance, but it is a pretty tight fit in the bore

[82 250r]

"4 corner" scoring is usually caused by a cold seize. The forged pistons are prone to this on the air cooled stuff because the piston will heat up faster than the cylinder.
It can also happen if the engine has been overheated.

[El Camexican]

I just got back from the gym. Pics of the bottom end in a bit after my shower.

Buns of steel here we come!:naughty:

[barnett468]

Buns of steel here we come!:naughty:

I was prayin, he talkin about his bike.

[barnett468]

I don't have the tools to measure clearance, but it is a pretty tight fit in the bore


From post #32.


MEASURING PISTON CLEARANCE

If you don't have the tools to do this, you can "guestimate" it by taking a piece of regular lined school paper around 2" long and 3/8" wide then stick half the length of the paper in the front or rear of the cylinder from the bottom side then simply install the piston without the rings on into the bottom of the cylinder top first and try to gently push it all the way thru . . If it takes a fair amount of force, imo, your clearance is too small for your particular app . . If it goes past the paper with basically no effort at all, it is not too tight imo, which means that something else other than a tight clearance caused the problem.

[atc007]

I need sleep and my eyes are burning,so, here goes. It looked like a very crappy bore/hone job. There wasn't cross hatch clear into the intake port. The rusty dowel pics. Absolutely,completely unacceptable. Sorry. They need to come out and be replaced if you have to butcher them. There was gasket material around that entire corner of the base. Clean the rust off the studs etc.. Engine building is exactly like surgery. Cleanliness is Godlyness. You have to be squeaky clean. We already knew it cold seized,but the pics tell you the story. Cylinder and piston need to be professionally sized,air leak test, watch your plug through break in,and you will be a happy happy boy! Good luck :)

[loganm]

I tried hard as I could to get those studs out. And I am a notorious vice grip abuser. Rusty studs won't heat sieze an engine. As far as the bore/hone, I will call and see what they say. Hopefully they can help make it right. The dowel was nice until I tried to get it out.

[Jmoozy27]

I don't get the hate. It's not like I came in here asking why I didn't have 5th gear or why it kept jumping out of 2nd. Obviously I'm not completely incompetent with a wrench.

Nobody is hating you. Where would you gather that from. It's just a little aggravating when someone creates a thread asking for advice and then immediately scoffs at it when recieved. But that's not what bothers me. What bothers me is watching you destroy a trike that I personally would have at least turned into a decent runner. So I'll admit that I'm just a little jealous. So I'll leave this to be what it is. I hope that you do what most people on this site would do and make that old dog worth keeping around. But if not, fukk it, pm me and I'll take it off of your hands. ;)

Good luck with your build:D

[loganm]

Just for you I will hammer on this thing and roach it out until the frame is bent and pegs are snapped off and the whole motor is shrapneled. If you want it you're welcome to come pick it up. That is after I get it running. I won't give someone a half-rebuilt engine. Either shrapnel or running condition imo.

Tbh I would rather have a dirtbike a trike is cool but I like my jumps big

[barnett468]

Rusty studs won't heat sieze an engine.

I can assure you that atc007 is aware of this and that is not why he suggested cleaning them . . Rust is hard and it can easily flake off, and with rusty studs, some of it could break off when you install the cylinder and possibly go into the crank case and damage a bearing or the cylinder or land on the base gasket and cause an air leak, and although this is unlikely, it is still a possibility, and as Neil Young says. "Rust never sleeps.".



I tried hard as I could to get those studs out. And I am a notorious vice grip abuser.

Perhaps it would be far more effective to simply put two nuts on the stud then tighten them very firmly together then use the bottom one to unscrew the stud . . Put a box wrench on the bottom nut first, then install the top nut . . You do not want to turn the bottom nut with an open end wrench.

.

[loganm]

Usually that ends up turning both the nuts in my experience. I could weld a nut to them, but then I'd have to replace the studs.

Rusty studs are staying for now, not a big deal imo.

[John Tice]

What a batch of opinions; Seems like most everyone has about the same idea with different ways to approach the problem. This board has a batch of good mechanics with many good ideas; it’s a good read while relaxing after dinner. LOL IMHO
:wondering

ON to Torque Plates; Every cylinder will react differently to a torque plate. Problem is in our shop; there are too many kinds of cylinders which need too many different kinds of repairs. Testing each & every one for every possibility is more than most of us would care to be involved with. Some do however react differently to a torque plate set up. I’d suspect that a plated cylinder which is processed & diamond honed has an extremely stable platform & does well without a torque plate treatment.

Harley cylinders; Harley jugs are extremely sensitive to torque plates. The problem is that most customers are not willing to spend twice the money for a torque plate service.
http://i1152.photobucket.com/albums/p497/johntice1/Vertical%20Hone/IMG_0196.jpg (http://s1152.photobucket.com/user/johntice1/media/Vertical%20Hone/IMG_0196.jpg.html)
This is a Harley cylinder with Torque Plate; set up on our vertical power hone using an AN-Sunnen hone head.

http://i1152.photobucket.com/albums/p497/johntice1/Vertical%20Hone/IMG_0313.jpg (http://s1152.photobucket.com/user/johntice1/media/Vertical%20Hone/IMG_0313.jpg.html)
A Sunnen Hand Held drill set up; We most always use the double stone set up. The double stone rack removes material much faster with better accuracy; especially on 2 stroke cylinders, which can have ports & cut outs that can snag.

Back to one of the original comments; Know & Trust your Machine Shop. Follow “How it’s Done” & you can learn some Tricks of the Trade from an Old Dog

John Tice
503-593-2908 Alternate 541-508-3944
www.smallenginemachineworks.com & www.nwsleeve.com
Turning Custom Cylinder Sleeves Since 1971

:beer

[barnett468]

Usually that ends up turning both the nuts in my experience.

I have done this way more times than i can remember, and the main reasons the nuts will spin is if they are not tight enough or if the threads start to stretch which can happen with grade 5 hardware store nuts because they are often chinese which are actually only around grade 3 using US grades.

One way to insure the nuts you use are not grade 3 is to buy grade 8 nuts because even if they are chinese, they will still be harder than us grade 5.

You can also just cover the engine and clean them with a wire brush or sand paper or naval jelly and a brush etc if you so desired.

.

[Jmoozy27]

Just for you I will hammer on this thing and roach it out until the frame is bent and pegs are snapped off and the whole motor is shrapneled.

Who are you kidding? You're gonna do that regardless of what I think. Knock yourself out, Chief....

[83ATC185]

"If anything's worth doing, it's worth doing right."

Pull it apart. Go through it once. Enjoy for years to come. It took me 6 months of on and off saving/building to build a 185 motor. Its not a race, and it cant be a hack job. if you're looking for something to beat on, honda 185s and 200s with bent axles that blow a quart of oil for every tank of gas are a dime a dozen.

Your trike is far from a basket case. I for one would love to have that 250r. It would sit in the corner of the shop until i had the time and money to give it the love it deserves.

You ask for advice, yet wont follow it and sit here on a board of people that love trikes and tell us all how you're going to destroy it. You're in the wrong place for that buddy.

[loganm]

Y'all are insane. It's a 3 wheeler, not the MF fountain of youth. It's vintage and cool in its own right, but everything from the engine and suspension to the tires and lighting are sub-par by today's standards. I'm not crushing it, I'm going to ride the damn thing, like it was meant for.

Once I've ridden it a bit I will decide if I will go the extended swinger, inverted forks route, or keep it stock and simple and use it as a run around on the farm and trails vehicle.

[atc007]

The rusty base studs can be very easily polished with a drill or dremel with a wire brush. No need for removal whatsoever. Pack your cases full of rags/shop towels,sit a shop vac hose next to your work and polish away.And for the record, with the amount of rust/crap/tore up dowel pin you have going on. That most certainly could cause your piston to be torqued in your bore. Every detail means a lot inside a happy engine, you'll get it squared away. Whoever did the cylinder should have some answers for you :)

[DohcBikes]

This kid is in denial. He thinks he has skills that he does not have. Shame to see so many good wrenches be disregarded by somebody but it happens, trust me.

If the attitude doesnt change neither will the skill set.



P.S. If you don't use torque plates on a harley cylinder you really dont know what you are doing. However, nearly 100% of singles do not require the use of torque plates when boring or honing.

[yaegerb]

Who are you kidding? You're gonna do that regardless of what I think. Knock yourself out, Chief....

I've already gave this guy advice once Moozy (when he was setting tranny bearings with a deadblow because they didn't fit), looks like it didn't pay off.......

I like to beat my head against a wall so I will do it again.

You are four corner cold seizing (pretty damn easy to see from your video, so thanks for loading). There are about 5 highly respected mechanics that have already given you great advice.

1. Go to a reputable shop to get your cylinder mic'd. You are in Kansas (don't know where) but if you are close to Holton, take it to F.A.S.T racing. Jeff will set you up perfectly.

2. Get a new oversize piston (whatever the shop tells you to buy).

3. Bore the sleeve to the piston size.

If you take/send it to FAST, they will take all of the guess work out of it for you.

4. For the love of god, do a pressure test. They are cheap to buy or make. The best article, already posted by John Neary (earlier in this thread) was the Harry Klemm article.

Or, don't listen to any sage advice, continue to ask the same question over and over again, run er' till she blows and drop the sumbit off a cliff.

[loganm]

I've already gave this guy advice once Moozy (when he was setting tranny bearings with a deadblow because they didn't fit), looks like it didn't pay off.......

I like to beat my head against a wall so I will do it again.

You are four corner cold seizing (pretty damn easy to see from your video, so thanks for loading). There are about 5 highly respected mechanics that have already given you great advice.

1. Go to a reputable shop to get your cylinder mic'd. You are in Kansas (don't know where) but if you are close to Holton, take it to F.A.S.T racing. Jeff will set you up perfectly.

2. Get a new oversize piston (whatever the shop tells you to buy).

3. Bore the sleeve to the piston size.

If you take/send it to FAST, they will take all of the guess work out of it for you.

4. For the love of god, do a pressure test. They are cheap to buy or make. The best article, already posted by John Neary (earlier in this thread) was the Harry Klemm article.

Or, don't listen to any sage advice, continue to ask the same question over and over again, run er' till she blows and drop the sumbit off a cliff.

Do you want to tell me then, since you know everything, how in the hell I obtain a bearing THAT IS NOT IN PRODUCTION ANYMORE?

None of you seem to understand the concept, this is not a numbers matching resto. I have a knack for getting trailprotrailprotrailprotrailpro done and making it work. Just because I didn't go out and buy a pressure test kit at the first mention of it doesn't mean I didn't take your advice. I haven't done anything to it but pull the top end off.

[yaegerb]

Do you want to tell me then, since you know everything, how in the hell I obtain a bearing THAT IS NOT IN PRODUCTION ANYMORE?

Glad you asked, sure I will help. Go grab the Honda part number off of service Honda. Then call this number. (425) 487-3881, which is Ride motorsports in woodenville, Washington. They have a database (I am sure other dealers do as well) that actually pulls inventory from across the nation. They can give you a list of dealerships that may have that bearing, collecting dust, sitting on a shelf in their warehouse.

If that doesn't work, get the old bearing, take it to a bearing warehouse and have them match it up. Look at that...took me all of 10 seconds to find this bearing distributor in Kansas City.....

http://www.ibtinc.com/product/industrial-bearings/

[DohcBikes]

None of you seem to understand the concept, this is not a numbers matching resto.
What does that have to do with knowing the difference between aluminum, steel, and cast iron?

What does that have to do with any of these fine responses?

Yes of course, you're right, it's the pro mechanics that don't understand the concept. :rolleyes:

[loganm]

What does that have to do with knowing the difference between aluminum, steel, and cast iron?

What does that have to do with any of these fine responses?

Yes of course, you're right, it's the pro mechanics that don't understand the concept. :rolleyes:

A simple spark test will give you that information. I don't think anything on this trike is cast iron. But I could be wrong, I haven't tested any of it.


Glad you asked, sure I will help. Go grab the Honda part number off of service Honda. Then call this number. (425) 487-3881, which is Ride motorsports in woodenville, Washington. They have a database (I am sure other dealers do as well) that actually pulls inventory from across the nation. They can give you a list of dealerships that may have that bearing, collecting dust, sitting on a shelf in their warehouse.

If that doesn't work, get the old bearing, take it to a bearing warehouse and have them match it up. Look at that...took me all of 10 seconds to find this bearing distributor in Kansas City.....

http://www.ibtinc.com/product/industrial-bearings/

First should I go to the trouble to pull this bearing out of the fully assembled bottom end? This bearing which works as intended, I should go to all the trouble to remove it, correct? Out of the aforementioned perfectly functioning bottom end.

[loganm]

I dont mean any offense to any of your intelligence but I take everything said on forums with a grain of salt. I have the actual physical parts. I came here looking for advice not to be berated.

[barnett468]

Do you want to tell me then, since you know everything, how in the hell I obtain a bearing THAT IS NOT IN PRODUCTION ANYMORE?

Did you post a thread asking where you could buy the bearing you needed?

In addition to Yaegerbs suggestion, you can try the link below . . They have over 100,000 square feet of discontinued inventory for many makes and models.

http://www.cmsnl.com/honda-atc250_model16/


This place probably has the second biggest new old stock inventory in the world.

http://www.xtremeusa.com/


Many discontinued parts can also be found here on occasion.

http://www.ebay.com/
.

[DohcBikes]

anyone know what the stock triple clamps are made of? Yes, lots of people know.




Guessing aluminum, hoping steel.Guessing and hoping? I thought you said was easy to tell?




I want inverted forksWhat does that have to do with the stock triple clamp material?




I'm on a tight budget. Then USD forks are not an option. Period.




I have the fabrication skills.No, you don't.




Edit: They appear to be steel.They do?



Just see if a magnet sticks to them . . If it sticks, they are steel, if it doesn't, they are not.
What's that ya say? What do you know, old man.



I saw rust on them, pretty sure they're steel.Pretty sure?



Hopefully forged and not cast, I'm not brazing up triple clamps. Well gee the first thing i'd look for is casting lines. See any?



I'm thinking CR125 forks, cut off the ends of the triple clamps and narrow them up, not running this big balloon tire. Sounds easy.



I'll have to do some research on this. Ya, I think that might be a good idea.



I'm certified in just about the easiest welding cert. to getSo you got the certification from JB himself eh...Pics or it didnt happen.



Apparently the bottom is steel and top aluminum.Apparently? What does that even mean in this case? And you're still half wrong.



A simple spark test will give you that information. I'm lost.



I don't think anything on this trike is cast iron. Think again.



But I could be wrong, See above.



I haven't tested any of it.
Shlt we already knew that man.



Hey, if you think you are being berated you are wrong. You are being taught. Whether you open your small mind to learn or not is your choice.

The attitude you are now experiencing is a direct result of your own.

Have fun fellas.

[loganm]

Oh, I don't have the fabrication skills? I'm certified in AWS B2.1 in the 1G position, on carbon steel, up to 1" thick.

On top of a 1 year welding program, I've worked two short lived (due to personal reasons) welding jobs, and I handle all the welding at my current job. I've never had a boss tell me my welds aren't good enough.

In the near future I'm looking to purchase a new welder/generator, torch setup, and pickup and go into business for myself.

[DohcBikes]

Oh, I don't have the fabrication skills? I'm certified in AWS B2.1 in the 1G position, on carbon steel, up to 1" thick.So you are basically certified to hold a mig torch. Congratulations. Pics is what I asked for, not words. Did get exactly what I expected though.


On top of a 1 year welding program, I've worked two short lived (due to personal reasons) welding jobs, and I handle all the welding at my current job. I've never had a boss tell me my welds aren't good enough.But yet you don't know cast iron when you see it.


In the near future I'm looking to purchase a new welder/generator, torch setup, and pickup and go into business for myself.All I can say is Good Luck.

[loganm]

They could very well be forged.

[oscarmayer]

Loganm, was not trying to call you a moron. You are defiantly u having issues and honestly. Chances of getting it solved over Internet answers is probably not gonna happen. It need to go to s professional. They need it work to fix it or you will continue to blow things up. It is your$ but I am more the. Certain you have spend much more than it would have to have had a shop already do the motor. It is not $3k for a shop to redo a motor. tell ya what, send me the motor and I'll rebuild it right. You pay for parts and machining is all plus $100 for food, supplies and beer.
So yea rebuilt for $100 labor charge. Interested?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[DohcBikes]

They could very well be forged.I'm really sorry man but you're seriously clueless. The casting lines are obvious to anybody with any experience and even some that have no experience.

I'm telling you, flat out, no guessing, 100%, that the bottom clamp on your trike is made of cast iron. There's really no need to argue with me, everyone here already knows I'm always right.:naughty:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect

[loganm]

I'm really sorry man but you're seriously clueless. The casting lines are obvious to anybody with any experience and even some that have no experience.

I'm telling you, flat out, no guessing, 100%, that the bottom clamp on your trike is made of cast iron. There's really no need to argue with me, everyone here already knows I'm always right.:naughty:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect

I'm just spitballing ideas and you're taking everything as if it's fact and I've already done it. What are your credentials? Are you a CWI? Journeyman? You're asking everything of me but show nothing reputable yourself.

[DohcBikes]

I didnt ask anything of you but some gawddamm respect for the proffessionals that are giving you answers.

Your response is nearly unrelatable to the discussion. It doesn't take a welding instructor to identify cast iron, kid.

[loganm]

Nobody has given me an answer. Do you know why? Because I have the parts. Nobody on this forum, no matter how good they are, is going to be able to diagnose the problem THROUGH THIS FORUM. Which is why I take everything with a grain of salt.

I've taken everyones advice, even the keyboard warriors like you who can tell me the hundreds of things I'm doing "wrong." If you don't have any welding related credentials I'm not listening to anything you tell me on the subject.

[shovelryder]

This would be a really good thread to delete...

[loganm]

This would be a really good thread to delete...

Yeah maybe it would. But I want to see this guy show me some booger welds.

[DohcBikes]

Nobody has given me an answer. Do you know why? Because I have the parts. Nobody on this forum, no matter how good they are, is going to be able to diagnose the problem THROUGH THIS FORUM. Which is why I take everything with a grain of salt.

I've taken everyones advice, even the keyboard warriors like you who can tell me the hundreds of things I'm doing "wrong." If you don't have any welding related credentials I'm not listening to anything you tell me on the subject.You are hyperfocused on welding. My comment was regarding overall fabrication skills. If you cant discern between aluminum, steel, and cast iron, then you do not possess the skills to fabricate. Basic knowledge of metals is a prerequisite for fabrication.

I've diagnosed plenty of issues through THIS forum. So have many others here. In fact, your problem has been diagnosed by several already.

But since you asked, here's one of my shltty welds I slopped on with a welder that I had never previously touched.

226989

[barnett468]

Nobody has given me an answer. Do you know why? Because I have the parts. Nobody on this forum, no matter how good they are, is going to be able to diagnose the problem THROUGH THIS FORUM.

This is incorrect, I and a few other people accurately diagnosed the single primary cause of the seizure which is the piston to cylinder clearance is too tight, that's it 110% guaranteed . . The reason that I and others know this is because most of us have been doing this for DECADES and have seen every type of seizure possible [including coronary ones], and have definitively determined the cause of most, if not every one of them, and your video proves conclusively to people that have seen this exact type of seizure before, that is is primarily, if not solely caused by the piston being too tight in the bore . . Any other possible contributing factors are small, and the fact is that if the piston had more clearance, it would not have seized even if it did have an air leak or was a little lean etc.

If you believe that no one here can diagnose the problem based on your description AND A VIDEO OF THE PARTS, then why did you even post a thread regarding it?

Also, have you even tried the paper test I suggested to check piston to cylinder clearance? . . It is simply wrong to claim that no one has given you an answer as to the cause of the seizure if you haven't even taken two whole minutes to do this incredibly simple test.

People recommend tests on an engine for a very specific reason just like a Doctor does, and to not do the tests simply because one doesn't think they are necessary even though they have absolutely no idea why their bike has a particular problem seems illogical to me, because not doing them doesn't help them find the cause of the problem in any way . . There is a reason these types of tests are called "Diagnostic" tests.

.

[DohcBikes]

Here's another shltty weld for ya, flux cored.

See that hole? That's custom peg mounts lined up with the 5 inch long swingarm mount lined up with the peg mount on the other side. Freehand fabrication.

Love to see you do what I did here, but I highly doubt you even understand the application, nevermind the need to have multiple variables exactly right.


226990

[barnett468]

.

You are hyperfocused on welding. But since you asked, here's one of my shltty welds I slopped on with a welder that I had never previously touched.

............................................. 226989


Yes, unfortunately that is pretty bad, however, if you continue to practice, with a lot of luck you may eventually be able to make high quality welds like this.

.........................................http://rs471.pbsrc.com/albums/rr80/ChevyRacer1981/Bad%20welds/100_0066.jpg~c200
.

[yaegerb]

First should I go to the trouble to pull this bearing out of the fully assembled bottom end? This bearing which works as intended, I should go to all the trouble to remove it, correct? Out of the aforementioned perfectly functioning bottom end.

If the bearing you have in there is working perfectly then no, why remove it? I am just showing you there are other options and you still can obtain OEM parts for your particular machine.

On second thought, if you ever find out where that last washer goes on your tranny, you might want to go ahead and replace that bearing while you are in there.

[shovelryder]

Yeah maybe it would. But I want to see this guy show me some booger welds.Thats not a guy you wanna mess with kiddo.....Hes been there, done that, and bought the shirt.....As have most that have tried to help you here.

[DohcBikes]

Hey, mostly I just mess around, ya know. Little of this, little of that.

100% freehand fabrication of a diamond frame for a cl175 with a monoshock conversion.

Took a lot of work and thought to get from the first picture to the second. Lots of things that an untrained eye would not be impressed with, and yet still just a progress picture.

227007

227006

When you can build something such as that in the second picture freehanded, with zero measuring tools, and have the swingarm pivot bolt slide in with 2 fingers pushing it through, let me know. Almost every piece of that bracing is radiused, so have fun with that. I won't be holding my breath.

[loganm]

If the bearing you have in there is working perfectly then no, why remove it? I am just showing you there are other options and you still can obtain OEM parts for your particular machine.

On second thought, if you ever find out where that last washer goes on your tranny, you might want to go ahead and replace that bearing while you are in there.

I did find out where it goes, earlier in the thread. Had I have known that was a possibility at the beginning I may have gone that route. Saying my fabrication skills are not up to par is completely insulting to me. It is what I do. Im still not 100% set on the bottom clamp being cast. But if I were going with an inverted fork I would probably look into a larger head tube/stem/bearings as well as head tube angle, etc. and at that point may as well have a set of clamps bought or milled from solid plate.

[DohcBikes]

Saying my fabrication skills are not up to par is completely insulting to me. It is what I do. Im still not 100% set on the bottom clamp being cast. I think I'm getting a nose bleed now.

[83ATC185]

I did find out where it goes, earlier in the thread. Had I have known that was a possibility at the beginning I may have gone that route. Saying my fabrication skills are not up to par is completely insulting to me. It is what I do. Im still not 100% set on the bottom clamp being cast. But if I were going with an inverted fork I would probably look into a larger head tube/stem/bearings as well as head tube angle, etc. and at that point may as well have a set of clamps bought or milled from solid plate.

You don't even have the motor running to its full potential and you keep talking frame geometry

Ok, ill bite, out of curiosity. Why do you feel this setup is inadequate? Why are you so concerned about changing up steering geometry, or putting inverts on a first gen R? There are a few better performing trikes out there, why not just build or buy an 85? Or better yet if they are such a bad design, why not simply swap it with 200x forks?

[yaegerb]

I did find out where it goes, earlier in the thread.

meanwhile...earlier in the thread....


This is my 4th time rebuilding this motor. Put 5th in backwards the first time, which caused me a host of problems leading to have to rebuild the whole motor 4 times. I think I got the bottom end right this time. I still have no idea where the one washer goes that caused me to rebuild it 4 times. I have looked at all the parts diagrams, I have everything there, so not too worried about it. It's a small thrust washer, same as the one on the end of the shift shaft before the outer case goes on. Can't go on any transmission shafts. End of the kickstarter shaft and the shift shaft are the only options.

Edit: Looking at parts diagrams I have the wrong washer between the kickstarter gears. I don't know where the one that I have in there came from, but it doesn't seem to be causing a problem. So it's staying for now.

OK, glad you got it figured out. And on that note, I am done. Good luck and have fun. I will be over in the corner eating popcorn.

[loganm]

You don't even have the motor running to its full potential and you keep talking frame geometry

Ok, ill bite, out of curiosity. Why do you feel this setup is inadequate? Why are you so concerned about changing up steering geometry, or putting inverts on a first gen R? There are a few better performing trikes out there, why not just build or buy an 85? Or better yet if they are such a bad design, why not simply swap it with 200x forks?

It's just something to do. Why even bother with an 85? Why not just go all out and buy a tpc 450? It's just something to do for fun, and for the learning experience.


I think I'm getting a nose bleed now.

It doesn't have the sharp lines of a casting. That frame looks nice, but why you spent that time on a cl175 is beyond me.

[DohcBikes]

It doesn't have the sharp lines of a casting. That frame looks nice, but why you spent that time on a cl175 is beyond me.

Now you're just trolling, and if you keep that line in too long, I'm going to swallow the hook and pull your azz right into the water.

That frame is childs play to me. An experiment. One that is going very well, because I am very talented.

Now, off you go, little boy.

[barnett468]

.

It's just something to do for fun, and for the learning experience.

By your replies on this thread and comments as to having to rebuild the bottom end four times because you were hammared and high, imo, you have a different idea as to what fun is than we do . . Most of us prefer to build our engines then ride our bikes THEN get hammared and high AFTERWARDS!


What do you know about it Barn...you could get high just smelling Parsely....Sage, Rosemary and Thyme [sorry Glamy, that's the best song lyrics I could think of]!

http://www.picgifs.com/graphics/l/laughing/graphics-laughing-867787.gif

[loganm]

The steering stem is welded into the bottom triple clamp.


So that frame went from a lot of work and thought and NO MEASURING TOOLS (wtf) to child's play. Seriously.

I really didn't give a damn when I built it the first time, there was other stuff far more important on my mind. I already got the answers I was looking for a long time ago, how this argument is still going is beyond me. I did the paper test, didn't make a difference. Guy at JSR said it could be any number of things in the top end that's causing it.

[DohcBikes]

The steering stem is welded into the bottom triple clamp.Then why did you ever think it was aluminum? LOL.

It's cast iron.

Please tell me you cant weld cast iron to mild, please please please oh great and powerful one!



So that frame went from a lot of work and thought and NO MEASURING TOOLS (wtf) to child's play. Yes, you have that correct. No measuring tools whatsoever. It took a lot of thought and work. It was work, but it was not the least bit difficult for somebody with my level of skill to acheive. I did it just for fun, like when a child plays.

You're really treading water.

[loganm]

Because the top one is aluminum. Most modern dirtbikes have aluminum triple clamps. I'm not buying your bs about no measuring tools. Next you'll tell me how you rebuild an engine with nothing but a pair of pliers.

[barnett468]

.

I did the paper test, didn't make a difference.

So you used lined school book paper and the piston still went thru easily?

Why didn't you mention you did this test and post the results around 30 posts ago [yesterday] after I first suggested it?

Not mentioning that you have performed a test that someone suggested nor posting the results of said test, does not benefit you because people need the results of these tests to help isolate the root cause of a problem when they are trying to do it from behind a computer screen instead of actually being with the bike.

It also eliminates the need for people to ask someone ten times if they have done the test yet.








Guy at JSR said it could be any number of things in the top end that's causing it.

[barnett468]

Next you'll tell me how you rebuild an engine with nothing but a pair of pliers.

No he won't, because I know for a FACT that he used a hammar too . http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-laughing013.gif

[loganm]

Because, I'm going to have to take it somewhere and spend money anyways. Can't mic the bore through the internet. I did it late last night. I'm taking it back and telling them to do it right.

[DohcBikes]

Because the top one is aluminum. Oh, well, shlt. That explains everything.


Most modern dirtbikes have aluminum triple clamps. Your Vintage 3wheeler is not modern, nor is it a dirt bike. None of that matters when determining the kind of metal you, a fabricator, are holding in your little hands, but I thought we were just saying random things now.


I'm not buying your bs about no measuring tools. You weren't buying my b.s. about anything a while ago, so I have to assume now that I'll make the sale eventually.

I have absolutely no reason to lie to anyone about anything, especially a toddler.

I posted pics, now where's yours?

I'm just here to entertain yeagerB, don't want that popcorn to go to waste.

[barnett468]

.

And on that note, I am done. Good luck and have fun. I will be over in the corner eating popcorn.


.................................................. .http://thatschurch.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/Popcorn-09-Psych.gif

[Mosh]

This reminds me of a thread where the one guy wanted to use lava racks for silencer packing a few years back.

[barnett468]

.

Because, I'm going to have to take it somewhere and spend money anyways. Can't mic the bore through the internet. I did it late last night. I'm taking it back and telling them to do it right.

That is not a helpful answer, and it strongly suggests to me that you did NOT do what I suggested . . Also, the purpose of that test is NOT to measure the EXACT amount of piston to cylinder clearance, but is instead just another tool/guide that may give us some idea what the clearance is and how likely it is that it seized from the clearance being too tight . . Many people on this thread know EXACTLY why I suggested you use paper to do a quick rough check of the clearance . . Yesterday, you sounded like you wanted answers NOW, and the results of this test may have helped give them to you.

The FACT is that unless things have gotten even worse in the world recently, most lined school book paper is from .00265" to .0032" thick which many here know, and more often than not it is closer to .00265 because most mfg's, including paper products mfg's, are trying to stay competitive, and one way they do this with paper products is to make them THINNER.

I know this for a FACT because I now have to use around four times as much Charmin Ultra Soft toilet paper to wipe my ass with than I previously did, and my ass has NOT gotten any bigger...well maybe just a little bigger.

You are new here and have a LOT to learn about bikes and the depth of knowledge that is available here that you have FREE ACCESS to, and I can guarantee with 110% certainty that most of us have far better things we could be doing, like getting hammared or testing our latest anti personnel device on dangerous, combat trained Deer that may sneak onto our property and steel all of our grass or weeds, or try to attack us while we are taking a leisurely hike thru the woods with nothing more than an AK47 or UZI to protect us, and if you annoy these people enough, they may very well choose to do that instead of giving up some of their valuable time to help you the next time you ask for it.

http://previews.123rf.com/images/ehrlif/ehrlif1311/ehrlif131100082/23884262-Vengeance-Eight-point-buck-in-full-camouflage-holding-a-shotgun-waits-for-the-hapless-hunter-to-wand-Stock-Photo.jpg
.

[barnett468]

.
OOPS, WE HAVE YET ANOTHER POST CORRECTION POST BECAUSE WE DO NOT HAVE AN EDIT BUTTON

"...steel all of our grass or weeds..."

should read

"...steal all of our grass or weeds..."

:beer
.

[loganm]

I have to take it somewhere regardless of what the clearance is like. Bore is not acceptable at this point. I'll get my feeler gauges out and measure the ACTUAL clearance if that makes you feel better. I'm done with this thread. I'm not deleting it because ill be funny to read through.

Just to clear it up, I'm just taking the top end, and I will scrounge up a leak tester in the down time.

[barnett468]

I have to take it somewhere regardless of what the clearance is like.

This has absolutely nothing to do with the FACT that you wanted instant answers yesterday, and that you did NOT post the results of this simple test, and you are now making excuses for either not doing it or for not posting the results . . Ultimately, it doesn't matter matter to us whether you get your bike fixed PROPERLY or not, because as I mentioned, we all have far better things we could be doing than trying to help you, one of which includes riding our own bikes because ours actually run without seizing.



I'll get my feeler gauges out and measure the ACTUAL clearance if that makes you feel better.

oops, too late, I couldn't care any less now.



I'm done with this thread.

imo, based on some of your comments, you were done with it before you started.



I'm not deleting it because ill be funny to read through.

Well I'm pretty sure that EVERYONE will agree with you on that.



...ill be funny to read through.

ummm, the proper spelling is "it'll", not "ill", unless you are attempting to describe a felling of discomfort of some sort.


.

[El Camexican]

I'm telling you, flat out, no guessing, 100%, that the bottom clamp on your trike is made of cast iron. There's really no need to argue with me, everyone here already knows I'm always right.:naughty:

Cast iron eh? So how does that work when you tighten the clamps up?:wondering

[bkm]

Keep up the good work, don't let these guys discourage you and your engine building abilities.lol

[El Camexican]

Loganm, is this what your lower tree looks like? If so you have a forged steel lower clamp.

For those that don't know how to tell the difference between castings and forgings casting lines are very thin, while forging lines are usually at least 1/8" wide. It's caused by the excess material shooting out of the molds and being sheared off when the forging process occurs. Excess casting material leaks out of holes when the mold fill. The thin casting line is caused by the two piece molds. Some high end casting (investment casting) is so perfect they can actually cast functioning threads and may not show any lines as they come from one piece molds formed around wax.

[loganm]

Yes that is it. I didn't see the point in arguing it any farther.

On a mass produced machine, welding anything cast would be ridiculous. Cast can't be welded very well, definitely not on a mass production scale, the welds would crack from the vibrations alone. Not to mention cast would be far too brittle for the application imo. Cast iron that is. I've never heard of an aluminum forging, although I'm sure it's been done. The top clamp is likely cast aluminum or some sort of alloyed aluminum. Cast aluminum can be welded. That is how they repair cylinder heads etc.

[DohcBikes]

Cast iron eh? So how does that work when you tighten the clamps up?:wondering

You attempting to say that that there are no triple clamps made of cast iron? LOL. Wrong.

[DohcBikes]

Cast iron can be and is welded every day.

[DohcBikes]

There you go logan, you have someone to agree with you now!! That makes you both right!

[DohcBikes]

Cast can't be welded very well, definitely not on a mass production scale, the welds would crack from the vibrations alone. Not to mention cast would be far too brittle for the application imo. Cast iron that is. All of this is wrong.

[shovelryder]

Yes that is it. I didn't see the point in arguing it any farther.

On a mass produced machine, welding anything cast would be ridiculous. Cast can't be welded very well, definitely not on a mass production scale, the welds would crack from the vibrations alone. Not to mention cast would be far too brittle for the application imo. Cast iron that is. I've never heard of an aluminum forging, although I'm sure it's been done. The top clamp is likely cast aluminum or some sort of alloyed aluminum. Cast aluminum can be welded. That is how they repair cylinder heads etc. Harleys only been welding cast frame parts since 1903.....lol!

[bkm]

Keep up the good work, don't let these guys discourage you and your engine building abilities.lol
I know the typed word is often hard to gauge ones level of sarcasm, but just incase anyone thought I am losing my mind, this would fall under the sarcasm category.

[loganm]

Cast is never welded on anything structurally important. Harleys are the epitome of outdated, overpriced junk. Keep riding your slow, loud, heavy bike with your "biker gang" of office workers.

I already handed this over for laughs, because there's no point in arguing when you're wrong about almost everything you attempt to say. So go tell your grandkids that hate you how you "smited a younger" on the internet today, until your son in law takes them home because you tried to molest them.

Loganm, out. 😂