Titanium Valve spring collars (Worth it ?)

[RUNMEDOWN]

In my current build (It's clearly out of control for what it is intended) I have ordered Hi-performance valve springs from Webcam, but I got just the springs, didn't notice that I did not order the titanium collars> On a 200x would the titanium collars have any impact on general trail riding permanence? my assumption is no but I would like to check to see if it is a strength issue, I don't want to build a time bomb.

[shortline10]

I have never seen a stock 200x collar break or fail but the titanium ones might be an ounce or so lighter :) .

[nd4speed]

I worked at a valve spring manufacturer that made Nascar and Pro Circuits 4 stoke racing along with Isky and Manley stuff, ect. The real concern is when you step up to heavy duty springs that are hard as fk (around 65 Rockwell C), is the other components like caps are soft and wear and valve stems are weak,soft, and break and bend (and even cam lobes issues for stiff springs). After we advanced our springs to another level the suppliers of caps and stems had to change there products to cope with our springs. We also would hand grind the tips off so they would not dig into cap and themselves. The result changed the power and rpm one could achieve in the world of 4 stroke motorsports and V8 Nascar and so on...

I helped with order of operations for heat treat hardening (austenitizing), sorting by free length, grinding, heat setting, then finish grinding material allowance, and finally standardized programming for the grinders based on wire diameter. Then along with the micro finish shot peen operation the Engineer they hired came up with to the operations, it changed the face of Nascar motor power output. They tried to act like it was some black art but eventually from experience I was able to reverse engineer some of their formulas and realized it was just standard spring formulas you could find in the Machinery's Handbook.

They never listened to me about keeping the free length batches separate after grinding for heat setting to make more consistent load ranges. They would pick 3 springs out of thousands to set the oven, but would not measure free length beforehand to determine the top of the bell curve roughly. I tried to push that with the operators cause they would heat set hundreds of parts just to find out the load was wrong when they came out the oven and then they would have to change temp and re-work them again. Waste of time and money. Simple solution but lots of lack of knowledge and understanding and laziness and being set in their ways. Also I think my supervisor liked to try to steal my ideas as his own.

[DohcBikes]

Are you running a high performance cam and piston as well?

[barnett468]

On a 200x would the titanium collars have any impact on general trail riding permanence?

Not a noticeable one . . the lighter the parts on the valve side, the higher it will rev if all else remains the same . . in general, you gain around 50 rpm for every 30 grams you remove from the valve side of the rocker arm, however, oddly enough, you gain very little when it is removed from the lifter side.



my assumption is no but I would like to check to see if it is a strength issue, I don't want to build a time bomb.

i would only be concerned about them breaking if you have spring pressures of around 800 lbs with the valve open and rev it to 12,000 rpm . . tool steel retainers will exceed those limits.

the sharp ends of some springs can gouge ti as nd4speed mentioned.

[RUNMEDOWN]

Are you running a high performance cam and piston as well?

Yes 10.25:1 piston, XL185 cam (form a '79)(longer duration/higher lift).

[barnett468]

Yes 10.25:1 piston, XL185 cam (form a '79)(longer duration/higher lift).

in general, longer duration will raise your entire rpm range so it will have less bottom end and more top end which is generally undesireable in a trail bike unless you run it hard, so you may have to change gearing

[DohcBikes]

In my opinion that combo will be fine for a trail bike since he is raising compression as well. The xr185/200 cam is not that aggressive compared to say a webcam.

Cooling will be your next hurdle if you plan to dawdle on the trail with it.

No the titanium retainers are not worth it.

[barnett468]

dawdle on the trail with it.

Yes, please don't dawdle with it on the trail...or in any other public places!

[RUNMEDOWN]

Cooling will be your next hurdle if you plan to dawdle on the trail with it.
I have the Cylinder off right now to get it board out to take the new Weisco piston, I had to remove three of the lower fins on one side of the cylinder to clear the electric starter from the 200e, I have been reading articles about surface area and cutting additional slots in the cooling fins at set intervals to increase the cooling effect, I almost have it drawn up. I also have a vented number plate (Removing headlight) and the larger Maier tank fins to help direct more air over the fins when I am moving, and I have switched to a 205r front fender that has a smaller down-section to reduce the amount of air being blocked. Other than encasing the cylinder head and making it a water cooled cylinder; I don't think I have much more that I can do.

[barnett468]

I don't think I have much more that I can do.

Sure there is, you can extend the fins by simply welding additional material to them . . the more surface area there is, the cooler it will run at all temps . . increasing air flow only really helps much when the bike is moving at maybe 15 mph or more.

we had to do this on a few bikes at Kawi including the mighty, fire breathing, KLT 110, because i got the prototype hot enough to boil the oil during testing.

[DohcBikes]

Oil cooler

[RUNMEDOWN]

The other side of my thought is that the old 200e big reds would sit at idle all day and run at low speeds with much smaller cooling fins on basically the same motor and they never had any over heating issues. Is it b/c of the mods that I will have issues?

[DohcBikes]

200e is about 8.2 :1 compression..less power=less heat

This is why the x has bigger fins than the regular 200's, they are 9.6:1 stock

A hot day of riding in the summer will get a stock x hot, let alone a hopped up motor

[barnett468]

I have been reading articles about surface area and cutting additional slots in the cooling fins at set intervals to increase the cooling effect, I almost have it drawn up.

In general, removing material from the fins will make an engine run hotter, not cooler . . its simple physics.

Please post the articles you read regarding this.

[barnett468]

I don't think I have much more that I can do.

You can also anodize the cylinder and head . . this will increase cooling even when not moving.

if your cylinder cranking pressure is over around 185, i wuold run a spark plug that is 1 step cooler than stock in it.

[RUNMEDOWN]

In general, removing material from the fins will make an engine run hotter, not cooler . . its simple physics.

Please post the articles you read regarding this.
I just re-read the article, clearly written by someone who did not understand the subject (It could not be me not fully understanding the article). But I bought it, I am glad that I did not start cutting yet.
I will post a link.

Bottom of page 598 "From the experimental study it is found that the heat
transfer rate in notched fins is more than the unnotched
fins. The average heat transfer coefficient for without
notched fin is 8.3887 W/m 2 K and for 20% notched fins it is 9.8139"

http://www.ijetae.com/files/Volume2Issue4/IJETAE_0412_101.pdf

[barnett468]

The other side of my thought is that the old 200e big reds would sit at idle all day and run at low speeds with much smaller cooling fins on basically the same motor and they never had any over heating issues. Is it b/c of the mods that I will have issues?

engines are designed to run at the proper temp for their intended use . . honda knew that the big ed would be left idling in blazing heat for long periods of time and designed it accordingly . . increasing the power and compression of any engine will increase its cooling requirements . . it is possible to exceed the engines ability to cool properly if enough performnce mods are done and/or it is ridden wot up steep hills in the sand when it is 297 degrees outside.

[RUNMEDOWN]

engines are designed to run at the proper temp for their intended use . . honda knew that the big ed would be left idling in blazing heat for long periods of time and designed it accordingly . . increasing the power and compression of any engine will increase its cooling requirements . . it is possible to exceed the engines ability to cool properly if enough performnce mods are done and/or it is ridden wot up steep hills in the sand when it is 297 degrees outside.
I don't know about you but I don't ride when it is 297 degrees Fahrenheit out
Just thinking of surface area, as long as the width of the cut is less than the width of the material being removed (X2) that you would be creating more surface area with every cut. Then the issue of turbulence vs. flow would need to be factored in. (Hello, I like to overthink things) My new plan is to not cut slots except for the area I had to reduce the length of the fin to clear the starter, I will also remove the paint from the fins and let it be.

[barnett468]

I just re-read the article, clearly written by someone who did not understand the subject (It could not be me not fully understanding the article). But I bought it, I am glad that I did not start cutting yet.
I will post a link.

http://www.ijetae.com/files/Volume2Issue4/IJETAE_0412_101.pdf

ok, xnt . . i just skimmed over it but he is referring to static [not moving] objects such as heat sinks on computers and fins on generators which also do not use a fan to cool them, therefore this does not apply to your app in any way.

your fins are primarily designed to function when air is forced over them . . as you move forward, the air enters the fins from the front and part of it escapes out the side and some of it continues along the length of the fin . . any break/gap in the surface of the fin will create turbulence which will reduce air flow after the break/gap which will then allow the area that is rearward of the break/gap to get hotter than it should.

yes i know there were some aftermarket cylinder heads like the dg for the cr125 and 250 and the one for the cz's that falta had on his works bike that used staggered fins, but that in no way meant they were more effective and may have partially been a marketing tool . . if the mfg said it worked better, it must have, but then one should ask themselves why other high perf aftermarket parts mfg's or bike mfg's used straight fins instead . . one think is for certain though, back in the 70's, people thought that staggered fins made their bike ook more aggressive and "works" like so many people bought these types of heads for that reason alone . . i put one on my "works" 1974 CR125 for that very reason.

FMF Porcupine head

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g152/tbteam11/IMG_8044.jpg~original


DG GOLD head . . Notice the silencer coming thru the middle of the rear fender in the wheel area.

http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll132/FlashptA10/DGRacer5.jpg


1976 falta replica

http://www.vintageworksbikes.com/sitebuilder/images/IMG_6587-850x622.jpg

[RUNMEDOWN]

Cool looking head. That was exactly what I was thinking. I had a dg head on my FL250

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[barnett468]

I don't know about you but I don't ride when it is 297 degrees Fahrenheit out


I have well over 1,000 hours of riding and racing time in temps above 90 degrees in all types of terrain and under racing conditions, it certainly felt like 297 degrees . . the endurance tests we did on the first tecates and klt 110 were conducted in 90 degree plus heat . . i like to ride when its hot, but i like to ride when its cool and i guess i like to ride when its raining and muddy too because i did a lot of it.

yeah unless the paint is a dedicated emissive coating, it will only reduce the cooling affect of the fins . . they do sell emissive paints but they are not very effective, and anodizing is many times more effective.



fu0-raceddid

[barnett468]

Cool looking head. That was exactly what I was thinking. I had a dg head on my FL250

yeah, that FMF head just has wicked written all over it . . the dg head is just the opposite with is elegant, smooth, radial design.

i saw a lot of fl250 races and you couldn't pay me to race one of those things because it looked like it would shorten ones spine when landing off the jumps . . saw a lot of them flip over too . . i actually felt sorry for those guys.

[RUNMEDOWN]

That's why I sold it. Just too rough of a ride for me as I get older.

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