Clearance issues???

[Jmoozy27]

While assembling my latest build I have hit a fork in the road. A part of the frame that was initially a motor mount and support is in the way of my proposed carb intake.
225404

My first thought was cut it out. No big deal. But now I'm second guessing.
225405

So my question is to cut or not to cut???:crazy:

[muthey]

you could cut and reshape, or you could try a different style intake for it that will allow your carb to clear or come straight out the side.

[John_Neary]

did you plan on running a airboot to a airbox or just a K&N or foam filter directly attached to the carb?

[onformula1]

Cut it out, move it up or down is you can.

I would cut it out and fab a new round bar out of thick walled tubing or round bar and gusset that area.

I think the diagram picture I send you said to remove that? (That picture is on my other computer so I can't check right now)

225406

[El Camexican]

If you do cut it out I would weld in the new tube before cutting out the old one if possible. Less chance of the frame distorting.

[Jmoozy27]

I would like to keep it but it is very strategically placed from the factory. I planned on running the stock 86 200x air box because I have everything. The support was already causing clearance issues with the exhaust so I had considered removing it along time ago. By moving the support lower it would free up the exhaust but would hinder the carb placement ever more. Moving it higher frees up the carb but makes the exhaust basically impossible.

[onformula1]

How about something like this?

********__________
_______/

Well, my drawing works, until I hit the enter button??? (Ignore the "*")

How about a bar across bent 45 degrees then across?

[John_Neary]

could you lower the front of the engine to get the carb aimed upward so the intake boot clears the frame brace?

[DohcBikes]

Engine swap? Maybe a 200x engine would fit.

:welcome:

[86125m]

What about a pod filter with a 90 degree angle. I think their is just enough clearance for it. However here in south Louisiana you really do need an air box. But it is a thought

[DohcBikes]

Your pipe needs at least 1/4" of clearance everywhere or it and your frame are going to be a noisy corroded nightmare.

Isn't this essentially an excersize in seeing how fast you can make this engine move with this configuration? If that is the case then stop worrying about the airbox.

You need to cut the whole brace out, do what you need to do with the pipe and intake, then find a way to reintroduce the majority of the strength you removed. Simply notching or zigzagging the brace is going to look ghetto, not factory like you want it to.

Frame distortion is not a concern in that area while the frame is idle. Furthermore, if the frame pops apart or squeezes together when cut from being loaded up by that brace, then relieving the stress and contained energy was a good thing.

Ready to blast and paint that frame again? Suggest you mock up the entire bike before this round:p

[Jmoozy27]

Problem solved. I feel that removing that brace won't effect the integrity of the frame very much. The 200x motor did not mount through the swinger like this one will. I feel like that will make the difference. Thanks for everyone's participation.http://www.3wheelerworld.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=225414&stc=1

[DohcBikes]

You need to replace the brace at some point when everything is in place the way you want it.

The square 200x frames are prone to breakage, regardless of what the biased 2nd gen owners say. Even you DC:D

With all that monster power you'll be throwing down you can't just cut it out and leave it out. Dat's whack, man.

J- Rarely (never) does a true custom that is built correctly only need the engine mocked up once. If you want a good finished product you will need to go through the entire process as it requires, regardless of the want to save labor or time.

It looks like the carb top and throttle linkage may be a clearance issue as well?

[Jmoozy27]

I've been looking at frames all night. 1st and 3rd gen 250r don't have that brace. Neither do the cr125 frame that the motor came out of. I think it's fine.

[Ol Deuce]

The hose trick always works 225417

[DohcBikes]

Its not a 250r frame and comparing it to a dirtbike frame is plain ignorant because it is not a dirt bike therefore it sees a completely different amount and type of load. You can't just say "welp looks like this frame must be good" But, whatever you say bud. I've only built around 60 custom bikes so my experience is limited.

[Jmoozy27]

"Welp, we'll just have to see man"

[Jmoozy27]

I've only built around 60 custom bikes so my experience is limited.

I thought that you were Barnett for a second. But then I remembered that you own a trike.

What should I do then? ;) Are you an expert? :confused:

[Dirtcrasher]

You need to replace the brace at some point when everything is in place the way you want it.

The square 200x frames are prone to breakage, regardless of what the biased 2nd gen owners say. Even you DC:D

With all that monster power you'll be throwing down you can't just cut it out and leave it out. Dat's whack, man.

J- Rarely (never) does a true custom that is built correctly only need the engine mocked up once. If you want a good finished product you will need to go through the entire process as it requires, regardless of the want to save labor or time.

It looks like the carb top and throttle linkage may be a clearance issue as well?

I just want it verified with pics!! lollll

I can't break mine and I have 4.

[DohcBikes]

I just want it verified with pics!! lollll

I can't break mine and I have 4.Let me ride it, you'll soon have all the verification you need!

I've only owned two. Both frames were broken. You'll just have to take my word for it Steve.

[DohcBikes]

I thought that you were Barnett for a second. But then I remembered that you own a trike.

What should I do then? ;) Are you an expert? :confused:

Just offering my far-more-experienced-than-yours opinion for free. Snide comments and guessing won't keep your frame from breaking.

If you know so much, why did you even ask? This is a technical thread, not a schoolyard.

There's one person on this thread that has raced high powered drag bikes and he didn't even think you should remove it before bracing it first. Your attitude towards the advice here is nothing but ignorance and for that reason my advice is now unavailable to you.

Even the foremost expert on suspension (this alone should clue you in to where the issue will be) made essentially the same reccommendation that I did. That makes, pretty much everybody on the threads advice wrong I guess.

My guess is that the choice to leave the brace out is largely based on the fact that you already painted the frame and don't wanna do it again.

It obviously wasn't ready for paint. If you can't determine the correct order of operation on a custom build I'm not sure how you are determining the projected dynamic stress load of your frame.

Throw stones at me like a child would if you like. I will be happy to make you look foolish every single time you do it.

You guys are quite entertaining though.

Merry Christmas.

[John_Neary]

looking at the frame now my concern would be is there enough support up by top shock mount

if you go with it like it is now i would say keep a really close eye on that area for any cracking or flaking of the paint that would indicate frame flex

[DohcBikes]

looking at the frame now my concern would be is there enough support up by top shock mount


b.i.n.g.o.

Not something you want to learn the hard way is it John.

A catastrophic frame failure at the shock mount can seriously injure or even kill you depending on how it happens.

Frame engineering is not checkers it's chess. You don't just cut a brace out of a high performance machine and call it good.

It's not about making one jump with it not breaking, it's about making 1000.

So far I think very person here knows it needs the brace. Leaving it out would be sheer ignorance or laziness.

[barnett468]

.
1.
Its not a 250r frame and comparing it to a dirtbike frame is plain ignorant...

2. Fire your welder . . My Grandma can weld better than that and she's dead. http://www.mustang.org.au/forum/Smileys/smilies/thumbsup.gif

3. You can simply move the now missing bar up and tack it in above the carb and pipe for now, then eventually add a couple of small gussets to spread the load out, however, I'm sure that some other "engineer" here will say that that will add two hundred lbs to the frame and change the stress points so it will break in half on the first 2 foot high jump you try to make and you will die and I'm sure they are right, however, you already changed them anyway by not only removing the bar, you also changed them by adding a "gusset' kit so... http://www.mustang.org.au/forum/Smileys/smilies/shrug.gif

4. It's a Honda so who cares. http://www.mustang.org.au/forum/Smileys/smilies/hysterical.gif


MERRY CHRISTMAS!

http://www.allstarshowgrams.com/characters/Helga.png

[Jmoozy27]

Just offering my far-more-experienced-than-yours opinion for free. Snide comments and guessing won't keep your frame from breaking.

If you know so much, why did you even ask? This is a technical thread, not a schoolyard.

There's one person on this thread that has raced high powered drag bikes and he didn't even think you should remove it before bracing it first. Your attitude towards the advice here is nothing but ignorance and for that reason my advice is now unavailable to you.

Even the foremost expert on suspension (this alone should clue you in to where the issue will be) made essentially the same reccommendation that I did. That makes, pretty much everybody on the threads advice wrong I guess.

You guys are quite entertaining though.

Merry Christmas.

Man, your just way too easy. Glad to see all of the good opinions. There hasn't been this many good opinions since the vinyl tubing thread. ;) If any of you would think that I would cut out one of the biggest supports on this frame and not replace it with something then you haven't been reading through the atcr thread. I always planned on reinforcing my cut, just didn't quite know how I was going to do it. The bait did work to get the experts from under the rocks, and it was done with a page out of your book Damon.

Relax dude, I just couldn't pass up the opportunity. I thought about after your comment last night about the engine swap. Don't be so rowdy. Smile like your avatar. I respect your knowledge as I do everyone else's as they exceed mine by much. I'm just a undereducated coonass with a trike problem. But I do appreciate the feedback. Sincerely.

J-Moo

[Jmoozy27]

b.i.n.g.o.

Not something you want to learn the hard way is it John.

A catastrophic frame failure at the shock mount can seriously injure or even kill you depending on how it happens.

Frame engineering is not checkers it's chess. You don't just cut a brace out of a high performance machine and call it good.

It's not about making one jump with it not breaking, it's about making 1000.

So far I think very person here knows it needs the brace. Leaving it out would be sheer ignorance or laziness.

This is my plan, gusset both sides of the shock mount. I saw it this morning just before I made my cut. It should take care of that. I'm glad someone finally made that recommendation.

[Jmoozy27]

.
1.

2. Fire your welder . . My Grandma can weld better than that and she's dead. http://www.mustang.org.au/forum/Smileys/smilies/thumbsup.gif

3. You can simply move the now missing bar up and tack it in above the carb and pipe for now, then eventually add a couple of small gussets to spread the load out, however, I'm sure that some other "engineer" here will say that that will add two hundred lbs to the frame and change the stress points so it will break in half on the first 2 foot high jump you try to make and you will die and I'm sure they are right, however, you already changed them anyway by not only removing the bar, you also changed them by adding a "gusset' kit so... http://www.mustang.org.au/forum/Smileys/smilies/shrug.gif

4. It's a Honda so who cares. http://www.mustang.org.au/forum/Smileys/smilies/hysterical.gif


MERRY CHRISTMAS!

http://www.allstarshowgrams.com/characters/Helga.png

I should definitely fire my welder. He's ignorant and lazy...

[DohcBikes]

The bait did work to get the experts from under the rocks, and it was done with a page out of your book Damon. By claiming you were joking to cover a mistake after several experienced people show it to you, you are also taking a page from my book. Don't forget who wrote it.

The reason I know you were serious is because there was already plenty of good advice flooding in, and no reason to bait anyone.

I don't however recommend intentionally baiting people if that's truly what you did. It is against the forum rules to do so and just such an exchange ended in a long ban for me.

Not to mention it pisses people off. If that's what you wanted, so be it. If not, you might wanna curb that inclination next time.


Relax dude, I just couldn't pass up the opportunity.Again you might wanna run on by it next time. If there is anything everyone here knows about me, it is that I will nail coffins even tighter, long after they have already been buried.


Don't be so rowdy. Smile like your avatar. Been smiling this whole time.


I respect your knowledge as I do everyone else's as they exceed mine by much. I'm just a undereducated coonass with a trike problem. But I do appreciate the feedback. Sincerely. Thank you and you are welcome.

I can easily see that you are a hard worker and quite capable of understanding complicated things. If you are under the impression that I am concerned with anything other than your safety then you are under the wrong impression.

From the forum rules:No trolling, and post baiting. If you post something with the intention of doing nothing more then pissing a person(s) off you are doing what is known as trolling or post baiting. Trolling and post baiting will not be tolerated period, and you will be banned without warning or notice totally at any moderators discretion.

Trust me, it can happen.

[Jmoozy27]

By claiming you were joking to cover a mistake after several experienced people show it to you, you are also taking a page from my book. Don't forget who wrote it.

The reason I know you were serious is because there was already plenty of good advice flooding in, and no reason to bait anyone.

I don't however recommend intentionally baiting people if that's truly what you did. It is against the forum rules to do so and just such an exchange ended in a long ban for me.

Not to mention it pisses people off. If that's what you wanted, so be it. If not, you might wanna curb that inclination next time.

Again you might wanna run on by it next time. If there is anything everyone here knows about me, it is that I will nail coffins even tighter, long after they have already been buried.

Been smiling this whole time.

Thank you and you are welcome.

I can easily see that you are a hard worker and quite capable of understanding complicated things. If you are under the impression that I am concerned with anything other than your safety then you are under the wrong impression.

From the forum rules:No trolling, and post baiting. If you post something with the intention of doing nothing more then pissing a person(s) off you are doing what is known as trolling or post baiting. Trolling and post baiting will not be tolerated period, and you will be banned without warning or notice totally at any moderators discretion.

Trust me, it can happen.

You as well as others should know better then to assume that I'm a troll although I don't think that is the case. I was getting good feedback last night but it was the stuff that I had already discussed with myself. Sometimes you just have to get more eyes than your own on something to really get a good look at it. In my area I would be considered a 3 wheeler guru. Which isn't saying much. There just isn't a lot of knowledge around me in person. So I resort to the internet for info. This is my second time building on this frame and I never once thought of gusseting the shock mount. No one recommended it until john neary at 3:19 today. I apologize if I offended anyone as that was not my intention. Nonetheless I couldn't have done it without y'all.

[DohcBikes]

What I don't think you are understanding is that the reason you need gussetting by the shock mount now is because you cut the brace out. Put it back in, no issues.

Something tells me here we go again with somebody telling me the two areas are not dependent on each other for strength.

[Jmoozy27]

What I don't think you are understanding is that the reason you need gussetting by the shock mount now is because you cut the brace out. Put it back in, no issues.

Something tells me here we go again with somebody telling me the two areas are not dependent on each other for strength.

No, I understand it. The brace was causing issues, that's why I just cut it out. I wanted to either put something smaller that wouldn't interfere with everything, or find some other way to strengthen it. I like the idea of gusseting the mount instead. It will look cleaner and should kill 2 birds with one stone. I just wish I would have seen it before I painted it. Oh well, you live and learn.

[barnett468]

This is my plan, gusset both sides of the shock mount. I saw it this morning just before I made my cut. It should take care of that. I'm glad someone finally made that recommendation.

That bar you removed has nothing to do with the structural integrity of the shock mount per se . . In other words, your shock mount won't break much, if any faster, without the bar . . One of the bars main functions is to keep the sides of the frame from bowing inward under the force applied to the upper shock mount by the suspension . . It also obviously prevents the tubes from bowing outward when it is subjected to load which in turn prevents the frame from collapsing.

If you have room to move the bar up, which from this angle it looks like you might, it will have more affect than leaving it out and running a gusset from the upper shock mount to the side tubes instead...but I could be wrong cuz, I only know how to do engineering on a....KAWASAKI...The Fastest Bikes In The Universe. http://www.mustang.org.au/forum/Smileys/smilies/hysterical.gif

http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTIwMlgxNjAw/z/xhUAAOSw0e9Uwkiw/$_57.JPG

[DohcBikes]

One of the bars main functions is to keep the sides of the frame from bowing inward under the force applied to the upper shock mount by the suspension . . It also obviously prevents the tubes from bowing outward when it is subjected to load which in turn prevents the frame from collapsing.

Even though it annoys me a little when somebody quotes someone and just says "^This.", that's about all there is to say there. You NEED THAT BRACE.




If you have room to move the bar up, which from this angle it looks like you might,

Looks to me like there is plenty of room especially when used in conjunction with ol deuces suggestion


it will have more affect than leaving it out and running a gusset from the upper shock mount to the side tubes instead...

I'm seeing no reason not to do both. I know damn well he's gonna want to jump this thing, especially with that razzle dazzle suspension i've been hearing about.


but I could be wrong cuz

You guys are cousins? Never woulda guessed it.

[barnett468]

I'm seeing no reason not to do both. I know damn well he's gonna want to jump this thing, especially with that razzle dazzle suspension i've been hearing about.

Oh most certainly, i was just referring to the function of the brace he removed, however, the last time I suggested how someone should gusset their frame AFTER they insisted they were going to do it and AFTER a few others suggested they should do it, someone else here said they should NOT do what I suggested, plus they said that my suggestion which might have added around 8 lbs, was really going to add around 20, would but I'm sure that's no big surprise.

[barnett468]

.
Jmoozy, I suggest you use prefabulated amulite for the gussets so you don't turn the thing into a tank with the excessive weight they will add if you use steel.

[barnett468]

I'm seeing no reason not to do both. I know damn well he's gonna want to jump this thing, especially with that razzle dazzle suspension i've been hearing about.

You mean he got it from Race Tech? . http://www.mustang.org.au/forum/Smileys/smilies/hysterical.gif

[oscarmayer]

I think every joint on the frame needs gussetting in my books and some extra supports added in. New idea. Add too and bottom braces to that area above and below the stuff. Problem solved and stronger than stock. Performance is not always about weight. When you got a motor 4Xs the power and performance of the stock one and weighs less than half. We can afford some extra frame weight for strength.
Gussetting every joint and re-enforce the down tube and steering stems. The swinger area also needs upgraded. Talk to Milner about him making you one of our swinger mount upgrade kits. That will stop the bolt hole from wollering and strengthen the swinger connection.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[DohcBikes]

Gussets top and bottom side to side triangularly parallel and perpendiculerly won't do the job that brace was doing.

Maybe we should get an engineer in here.

[El Camexican]

Maybe we should get an engineer in here.

Unfortunately our site engineer is too busy arguing that tofu is better for us than venison and watching Bambi reruns.

Meanwhile here's a perfect chassis design that can withstand rapid acceleration, sharp turns and big jumps. Unfortunately it isn't bullet proof.:lol:
225465

[Jmoozy27]

Okay, this is what I am going with. Please excuse the less than stellar machine work. My engineer has been a no show all week and I fired my welder for lack of attention to detail. :beer

[YTZ drew]

It is my (limited) understanding that the function of that brace was to stop the vertical frame members behind the engine from bowing inwards towards each other (like getting pinched) when you land a jump, when the top and bottom members of the frame are being pulled vertically apart from each other due to the upward force presented by the shock mount, and the downward load presented by the weight of the rider on the footpegs. I would try to put the brace back in. I could be wrong, though. My suggestion for the air filter would have been (if I had seen this thread 3 pages ago when it started) would have been to use an 86-88 KDX200 airbox and boot, which turns sharply 90 degrees to clear the frame and the spring in its original application.

Interesting thread. I look forward to seeing the result. Based on your work up to this point Moozy, I have no doubt that the solution will have much thought put into it, and will be more than adequate for the job.

[oldskool83]

You could have a new intake make out of aluminum in the angle you need and then just run large carb radiator hose to the air box. I've done this and prob will be doing this on mine.

[Dirtcrasher]

You put on the gussets and then chopped out the bar.

If the plan is to strengthen the frame, then get it back in there.

I'd just move it up higher, grind it to fit well and try to get a nice weld all the way around it. You gotta be safe.

Even if your not much of a jumper, a CR125 is. And a stuck throttle may show you the week spots.

That flux wire looks like it's just putting blobs of melted wire on there, not real good penetration.

I wish you had a gas mig welder; They are very easy and when welded well, the welds are strong......

[Jmoozy27]

Okay, this is what I am going with. Please excuse the less than stellar machine work. My engineer has been a no show all week and I fired my welder for lack of attention to detail. :beer

Sorry fellas I didn't realize that I forgot to post a pic with the above post so here it is:
http://www.3wheelerworld.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=225806&stc=1http://www.3wheelerworld.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=225807&stc=1

[cr480r]

Forget the brace.

[DohcBikes]

You'll really think 'forget the brace' when the rear cradle uprights start to bow and crack. There's absolutely no research or logic going into this Its just guesswork. Buy if that's what you want then so be it.

[barnett468]

Unfortunately our site engineer is too busy arguing that tofu is better for us than venison and watching Bambi reruns.

Meanwhile here's a perfect chassis design that can withstand rapid acceleration, sharp turns and big jumps. Unfortunately it isn't bullet proof.:lol:
225465

Hi, folks! . . My name is Bambi The Talking Deer, and this is my friend Thumper The Thumping Wabbit, and we approve this message...oh, and please don't eat us cuz we're not very tasty and you never know where we've been!

.............................................https ://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSJoy05MzDzZKR0OvE9etQB7Pimwm5O7 UWa6T13oJHa2Dhzm4RUpg
...........................................https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQl73WKvOx9s4mBA_WtwicsEDcrElwrO tIVFcd4WkvPOLnjYKah

[barnett468]

.
...or what we've been doing together.

[Jmoozy27]

I have some Bambi and thumper sausage that I'll be making a gravy out of tonight. Thanks for reminding me.:beer

[Dirtcrasher]

Those upper gussets are a help; I'm not sure how much penetration you got. How many amps were you running? I know it's flux core but the feed speed doesn't look right. Does it have A B C D E??

That upper gusset might be a problem with your intake.

I'm only here to advise. I think it's better than telling someone that they have to do it; They will learn.

You can't make people do what you would do, just suggest it.

There dozens of ways to strengthening anything.

Look at one of the 1st 450 conversions and how there done now. Between Jason, Louis and Richard, they have all learned so much!

I read where Richard was talking about the rear suspended 70's he builds. He said he found something that worked great and "why change it".

[barnett468]

.

.I have some Bambi and thumper sausage that I'll be making a gravy out of tonight. Thanks for reminding me.:beer

Sorry, but I for one wouldn't touch their sausages with a 10 foot pole much less make gravy with them...but the Beer looks tasty!

PS - Pleeease don't post a video.

[cr480r]

You'll really think 'forget the brace' when the rear cradle uprights start to bow and crack. There's absolutely no research or logic going into this Its just guesswork. Buy if that's what you want then so be it.

The "brace" some of you guys are stressing about was just an old engine mount. It's massive overkill because it had to keep the old engine from pulling rearward towards the swinger. Now the swingarm bolt is incorporated into the engine cases. The engine itself is also a structural member if the mounts are done right. It will be fine. I have hammered bikes with worse frames very hard with no issues.. Ever see the frame on a LT250??? It's a POS in comparison. Yes, square tubing is more crack prone... But with periodic inspections it won't be any more dangerous to ride than any other antique bike. They all can crack...

[barnett468]

Maybe we should get an engineer in here.

I think the guy you are referring to is busy arming the animals in Wisconsin and showing them some "Animal Warfare" tactics, but I rendered the chessy ass image image below showing one possible option, however, it would be better to see the frame in person.

...and no, barnett does not have a CAD program at home because the Grandkids took the batteries out of the computer that had it and used them in their homemade nuclear fission generator...or maybe it was the Betty Crocker Easy Bake Oven.


jmoozy, I'm guessing you didn't have room to simply raise the bar up and that you may be trying to reinforce the upper shock mount and the upright side rails with your gussets.

The lite gray section on the left side of the upper shock mount could be made from maybe .120" wall square stock the same width as the frame . . There would also be an identical one on the right side . . These would attach to the frame at a lower position than your current gusset which by my guess would be just above where your original brace was, and this position would offer greater strength closer to the necessary location than your new gussets even though the braces are not horizontal.

The lite gray section inside the upper shock mount represents a round tube that could be solid 1/2" round or solid 1/2x1/2 square stock that could be centered over the hole then just weld it to the hole . . Fill the hole with weld then grind it flat then attach the side bars centered over the hole . . You could also enlarge the hole to maybe 5/8" then put a piece of 5/8 tube/pipe in there with a slightly chamfered outer edge and weld that in then add the side braces.

In addition to reinforcing the side rails and preventing them from flexing in or out, it would also reduce their potential to flex fore or aft because the top of the brace would be mounted slightly rearward of the side rails which will provide a bit of triangulation per se.

You may also be able to cut a piece of the square stock around 3/4" long and shape one side so you can use it as a gusset on the bottom of the new side rail reinforcements . . This will not only spread the load out over a wider area, it will also, in effect, extend the point at which the side rails are reinforced so it is downward a little farther, so it should actually be close, or exactly at the position the orig bar was.

This set up would also reinforce the upper shock mount, so you kinda get 3 benefits/functions out of it at the same time, and although I certainly wouldn't suggest that it would be better than the original brace, it looks to me like it would at least be a reasonable substitution.

I would use chromoly if it's easy to find in your area . . Online Metals sells a lot of stuff including Titanium.

http://www.onlinemetals.com/?utm_source=bing&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=Metal%20General&utm_term=onlinemetals&utm_content=Metal%20Online

http://www.metalsdepot.com/products/hrsteel2.phtml?page=sqtube


....................http://i.ebayimg.com/t/NEW-SWISS-MADE-AUTHENTIC-GUCCI-WATCH-18-KARAT-GOLD-PLATE-AND-STAINLESS-75-OFF-/00/s/NDgwWDY0MA==/z/pN0AAOSwJkJWjazD/$_3.JPG

[cr480r]

A good shock that doesn't bottom constantly will go a long ways towards survival of a frame. Also, there are cases where overdoing gussets and braces can lead to problems in other areas by focusing the flex into a weaker spot.

[Jmoozy27]

There was just no room for the brace I would have loved to keep it but it was in the fuggin way. It gave me fits on the super x as well but it was much easier to make the bend with a 24mm keihin and airbox than this setup.http://www.3wheelerworld.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=225837&stc=1
I'm no genius but I'm confident that my decision was the right one. Time will tell.

[barnett468]

A good shock that doesn't bottom constantly will go a long ways towards survival of a frame. Also, there are cases where overdoing gussets and braces can lead to problems in other areas by focusing the flex into a weaker spot.

Yup on both accounts, and stress testing and frame engineering and reinforcement was part of my job at Kawasaki so I know you can certainly chase cracks around for a while, and any type of change in a chassis can change the dynamics such as stiffer suspension, and/or longer swingarms etc, however, in his case, although the bar was an engine mount, it was also a structural part of the frame, therefore it served a dual purpose and because it was also a structural part of the frame, it seems reasonable to me that basically replacing it, which is primarily the function of the braces I showed, won't increase the stress in another area by much, but as you suggested in your previous post, certainly check it over well for cracks periodically which should be part of a regular maintenance program even on a box stock bike.

A handy tool for checking for cracks is a small pop up magnifying glass that has a built in lite.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/1935009656/ref=pd_lpo_sbs_dp_ss_1?pf_rd_p=1944687582&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe-1&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=B0011X0PDW&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=10AD29749WJC9E4Q4MTE

................................. http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31ytU2wPClL._SS160_.jpg

[John_Neary]

knocking the weight of a small child off the motor should result in less strain on the frame, CR125 engine has to be at least 30 pounds lighter than a 200x engine

id say watch for cracks in the paint that are from flex and keep the rider far, far away from donuts and cheeseburgers :)

[cr480r]

the braces I showed, won't increase the stress in another area by much, but as you suggested in your previous post, certainly check it over well for cracks periodically

Wasn't trying to imply that. In fact if it were me and I felt the area was lacking I would have taken an approach similar to yours. My statement was a generalization in regards to gussets.. Seen many people add big bulky junk to their frames and then weaken it with overheated welds etc..

[barnett468]

Wasn't trying to imply that. In fact if it were me and I felt the area was lacking I would have taken an approach similar to yours. My statement was a generalization in regards to gussets.. Seen many people add big bulky junk to their frames and then weaken it with overheated welds etc..

Oh, of course, in general, just arbitrarily adding gussets to a frame for the heck of it when they have not been known to consistently have a prob certainly isn't the best idea . . I dn't know for certain how Honda or Yamaha tests their frames but at Kawi, after we worked out all the bugs and frame probs on a prototype, they would build a pre=production unit which was basically a full production unit and we would then typically do a 100 hour endurance test on it to see if any probs arose . . These tests typically consisted of going just as fast as we could the entire time and intentionally trying to break the bike, and the riders were fast intermediates and pros . . One of the reasons for the endurance tests is because not all the changes we made to the prototype could be replicated exactly on a production bike so the engineering department in Japan would sometimes have to make changes in our mods and hope that they worked the same afterwards which they typically did.

I actually think the only prob we ever found on any pre-production bike was the routing of the wiring harness on one which I corrected for production when I was inspecting it at our Nebraska plant, where oddly enough, they had a set of MOPAR front seat frames because our plant actually made some of the seat frames for them.

[El Camexican]

I have some Bambi and thumper sausage that I'll be making a gravy out of tonight. Thanks for reminding me.:beer

YUMMY! My folks always have some links waiting for me when I visit.:drool:

[El Camexican]

I would use chromoly if it's easy to find in your area .

With the rest of the chassis being mild steel and what appears to be only a flux core 120V wire feed welder at his disposal I would suggest he avoid using any exotic metals.

[Jmoozy27]

Those upper gussets are a help; I'm not sure how much penetration you got. How many amps were you running? I know it's flux core but the feed speed doesn't look right. Does it have A B C D E??

That upper gusset might be a problem with your intake.

I'm only here to advise. I think it's better than telling someone that they have to do it; They will learn.

You can't make people do what you would do, just suggest it.

There dozens of ways to strengthening anything.

Look at one of the 1st 450 conversions and how there done now. Between Jason, Louis and Richard, they have all learned so much!

I read where Richard was talking about the rear suspended 70's he builds. He said he found something that worked great and "why change it".

Oddly enough, the only weld that flux core was my first one on the swinger. After that I've been using .030 mig wire with 75/25 gas. My welds just suck but I have been doing better, just learning as I go. The machine is an Eastwood 130. It's a 110 unit. I built a 24x24x20" platform for one of my daughters for Christmas and it came out really nice. Definitely my best work yet. But that was all raw steel and easy to work with. The tight areas on that frame are definitely not ideal for a novice welder such as myself.

Nonetheless I've been in an industrial work setting for almost 10 years so I do know what weld penetration looks like. Any weld that did not have good penetration was grinded off before the paint was applied. The only person riding this trike is me and I ain't going out just yet. Not that easy.

[DohcBikes]

All welds should be on raw steel.

Safety is the BEST thing to have a serious debate about. Again If you think there's any other motivation you are incorrect. Back bone through the sternum es no bueno.

[RubberSalt]

I see this thread to late. Perfect job for a 3d printer >.<

Me, I'd replace the bar and design a new intake after the carb that contours to the shape and houses a filter.

[1979atc]

My self if I was doing this project I would've used tig over than mig. Mig Will most likely crack, depending on your welding experience and how good you are at it. I would put some kind of another brace back in there just for safety and not ruining all the work you just did all over again. Strip the paint off in the area where your brace needs to go, and run the brace right above the carb.

[DohcBikes]

I would've used tig over than mig. Mig Will most likely crack, No it won't. MIG welding when done correctly has proven itself in so many applications it's impossible to list them all. 'MIG will most likely crack' is an extreme exaggeration.

J, read all this again. The overwhelming consensus is that you need to replace that brace. Why ask opinions if you are going to ignore them? Cant think of one person that straight up advocated leaving it out.

You will jump that little rocket, mark my words. We want you and the machine to stay healthy.

[Jmoozy27]

There just isn't any room for the brace. Moving it up enough would ubstruct the exhaust, moving it down enough would ubstruct the swingarm/chain travel.

[Ol Deuce]

I feel your just fine with that brace cut out !hammerhammerhammerhammer:wondering

[1979atc]

Whatever you decide to do it's not our project we just give opinions and a lot of us on here give really good advice. Guess you will find out if it cracks or it stays good. Good luck to ya.

[barnett468]

There just isn't any room for the brace. Moving it up enough would ubstruct the exhaust, moving it down enough would ubstruct the swingarm/chain travel.

The following is just general info.

The reason I positioned the braces the way I did in my cheesy rendering was in case you couldn't simply move the original cross tube upward, because based on what I could tell from your photos, which is difficult to judge from, especially in only 2 dimensions, they would clear both your intake boot to your carb and your pipe by around 1/4", and of course since they are custom fit, you would have positioned them for proper clearance, however, if the pipe in the photo was lower than it actually would be, there would be some interference that would have to me addressed.

Flat plate is certainly sufficient to use in some places but it primarily works in one dimension per se . . One of its major attributes is tensile strength which is its resistance to being stretched . . Another is its resistance to compressing when force is applied to two of its opposing edges at exactly the same angle as the plate, however, if the force is applied at ANY angle other than that, it will deform/deflect with less force than is needed to reach its point of yield than it would if the force was applied at the same angle of the plate, however, even if a gusset is placed at exactly the same angle as the force being applied to it will be in a static system, the force will still be applied at a different angle in a dynamic system if that area twists at all, which many areas do on an ATC, therefore, in cases where similar amounts of resistance to both pulling and compression are needed, a gusset that has more than one dimension, such as a tube or square or rectangle etc will offer far more resistance to compression and twisting.

Wow, I can't believe how many periods I saved on that last sentence. http://www.mustang.org.au/forum/Smileys/smilies/thumbsup.gif

:beer

.

[El Camexican]

Mig Will most likely crack, depending on your welding experience and how good you are at it.

Were MIG "welds" tend to crack is when they were used as tacks and left as is. MIG welding involves intense rapid heating of the base metal. The ensuing rapid cooling that follows a small tack is what causes the base metal right next to the tack to crack "sometimes". Usually on thicker steel, which is why anything 3/4" or thicker should be preheated before welding. Pre-heating the base metal is of benefit on any weld which both TIG and gas welding offer as a residual part of the process.

His ATC frame and every other steel production frame that's come out of Japan in the past 30 years was MIG welded (some quite poorly) as well as many of the "exotic" frames of Ducati's & KTM's. His welds may not be pretty, but if each linier inch had just 1/4" of good penetration the tube of the frame would fail long before his welds.

[Ol Deuce]

YOUR GOOD LETS HAVE A TEST RIDE SOON ........ my next build is coming....your all going to cover your eyes !!!!!LoL Ol Deuce

[yaegerb]

And that's why I love ya Randy! You do it then show us with no approval needed!

[Ol Deuce]

And that's why I love ya Randy! You do it then show us with no approval needed!

Brendon thank you for the Kind words! ......thank you Sir:D ...............Ol Deuce;)