How it's Done

[John Tice]

How it’s done for December; no specific projects were chosen for the thread this time. Instead we took random pictures thru the last couple of weeks. I’ll explain a few of them as they seem interesting.

http://i1152.photobucket.com/albums/p497/johntice1/December%202015/IMG_0396.jpg (http://s1152.photobucket.com/user/johntice1/media/December%202015/IMG_0396.jpg.html)
This is a picture of an old cast iron Briggs & Stratton cylinder. I’ve got one of our Kwik-Way model FW machines in shop #2, a standard heavy duty boring stand is used. The slot in the stand is over 4” wide so an adaptor plate is needed for the smaller sized cylinders.

http://i1152.photobucket.com/albums/p497/johntice1/December%202015/IMG_0397.jpg (http://s1152.photobucket.com/user/johntice1/media/December%202015/IMG_0397.jpg.html)
We are getting a number of 4 stroke cylinders in to sleeve as the plating wears out. As usual many times oversized pistons aren’t available. I always tell the customer that a new sleeve many times isn’t the best idea with no oversizes.

http://i1152.photobucket.com/albums/p497/johntice1/December%202015/IMG_0395.jpg (http://s1152.photobucket.com/user/johntice1/media/December%202015/IMG_0395.jpg.html)
This is a 200cc Yamaha cylinder with 5 exhaust ports & a very confusing Power Valve set up. The different kinds of power valves tend to make me crazy attempting to figure them out. We require a power valve along with the cylinder so we can make sure that everything functions properly.

http://i1152.photobucket.com/albums/p497/johntice1/December%202015/IMG_0393.jpg (http://s1152.photobucket.com/user/johntice1/media/December%202015/IMG_0393.jpg.html)
A250 KX cylinder ready for the new sleeve installation

http://i1152.photobucket.com/albums/p497/johntice1/December%202015/IMG_0387.jpg (http://s1152.photobucket.com/user/johntice1/media/December%202015/IMG_0387.jpg.html)
The standard cylinder mount on the boring bar table

http://i1152.photobucket.com/albums/p497/johntice1/December%202015/IMG_0386.jpg (http://s1152.photobucket.com/user/johntice1/media/December%202015/IMG_0386.jpg.html)
http://i1152.photobucket.com/albums/p497/johntice1/December%202015/IMG_0385.jpg (http://s1152.photobucket.com/user/johntice1/media/December%202015/IMG_0385.jpg.html)
Trimming the sleeve flush with the top of the cylinder

http://i1152.photobucket.com/albums/p497/johntice1/December%202015/IMG_0375_1.jpg (http://s1152.photobucket.com/user/johntice1/media/December%202015/IMG_0375_1.jpg.html)
All of the ports are prepolished before the new sleeve is installed

http://i1152.photobucket.com/albums/p497/johntice1/December%202015/IMG_0370.jpg (http://s1152.photobucket.com/user/johntice1/media/December%202015/IMG_0370.jpg.html)
The port angles are carefully studied before we cut the new ones. Beside accurately locating the outside of the ports, the inside’s must also be considered.

http://i1152.photobucket.com/albums/p497/johntice1/December%202015/IMG_0364.jpg (http://s1152.photobucket.com/user/johntice1/media/December%202015/IMG_0364.jpg.html)
A CR250 cylinder waiting for a new sleeve

http://i1152.photobucket.com/albums/p497/johntice1/December%202015/IMG_0358.jpg (http://s1152.photobucket.com/user/johntice1/media/December%202015/IMG_0358.jpg.html)
The plating has been stripped out of the bore. The Power Valve is put in place to consider the final fit & function

http://i1152.photobucket.com/albums/p497/johntice1/December%202015/IMG_0361.jpg (http://s1152.photobucket.com/user/johntice1/media/December%202015/IMG_0361.jpg.html)
A cylinder mounted on the vertical hone for some finish sizing work

http://i1152.photobucket.com/albums/p497/johntice1/December%202015/IMG_0341.jpg (http://s1152.photobucket.com/user/johntice1/media/December%202015/IMG_0341.jpg.html)
For the final fitting; especially on a 2 stroke cylinder, the Sunnen con rod horizontal machine is used

http://i1152.photobucket.com/albums/p497/johntice1/December%202015/IMG_0297.jpg (http://s1152.photobucket.com/user/johntice1/media/December%202015/IMG_0297.jpg.html)
Final heating to 500deg. time to install the new sleeve. You will notice me sitting in my walker chair; with a bad back & a dose of MS I’m stuck with crutches 24/7. As “Clint says” Adapt, Improvise & Overcome.

http://i1152.photobucket.com/albums/p497/johntice1/December%202015/IMG_0295.jpg (http://s1152.photobucket.com/user/johntice1/media/December%202015/IMG_0295.jpg.html)
Final measurements before removing the sleeve from a mandrel

http://i1152.photobucket.com/albums/p497/johntice1/December%202015/IMG_0266.jpg (http://s1152.photobucket.com/user/johntice1/media/December%202015/IMG_0266.jpg.html)
After the new sleeve is installed, it’s held in place with a light press while it cools off.

This about ends this batch of pictures, please ask if you’ve got any questions. Our work is fairly repetitive installing & turning cylinder sleeves day after day. Each job is a special project & seldom do things get boring. LOL

John Tice
503-593-2908 Alternate 541-508-3944
www.smallenginemachineworks.com & www.nwsleeve.com
Turning Custom Cylinder Sleeves Since 1971

[Red Rider]

John, thanks for taking the time to give us a peek into what happens to our cylinders when we send them away for some machine work. Very interesting indeed.

[fieldy]

A very interesting trade to me. I am sure a lot of people wish, including myself, they had your knowledge of machines and cylinders. Seems like alot to know!
There is a man who still builds old Husky's here in Indiana and I have stopped by talked and watched him work, he's always building a motor or boring a cylinder for old bikes. He seems like he has fun with it and the knowledge to do something he enjoys. Do you like the 2 stroke motors or the four stroke? What about triple 2 strokes? Keep up the good work!

[John Tice]

I started racing & modifying 2 strokes with my first Simplex Kart from Meyer & Frank Co. here in Portland. The Kart had a Clinton A-490 2 stroke 2 ½ HP engine & a stub axle. Stub axles are a single rear wheel drive; crazy when entering a corner when the inside wheel spins like crazy attempting to grab some traction. This was in about 1958 when I was in 7th grade. Yes my & always favorite is the 2 stroke engine, it’s too bad that the Tree Huggers have their sites zeroed in on one of my favorite pass times.

Cylinder & Piston fitting is very close & precise which I prefer to work alone to help reduce mistakes. Your Husky friend is a step or two ahead of myself if he’s able to do this work while talking to a friend. :wondering

On Utube there is a section on how to bore a cylinder on a Bore Master cylinder boring machine. After watching for some time, the man in the video explained that he didn’t want to show his secrets. There are no secrets to this kind of work; either we know it or we don’t know it. Follow along with us & you can learn the trade; a couple years in a Machine Shop class at your local Community college will help you get your Ears Wet.
There is plenty of room for more new comers in the trade. Plated cylinders are your opportunity; they don’t last forever. The more of us in the trade; the more we can work up the demand for Wiesco & Wossner pistons. Business can be good for all of us when we take things along slowly & machine the cylinders round & straight.

Multi cylinder 2 strokes; a man just called me yesterday & said he’s got a 3 cylinder Excelsior motorcycle engine which needs some attention. My reply was; is it for a British Berkeley automobile? The man said YES & you’ve got another project. It does payoff sometimes to Have a little grey around the ears.


The main purpose of the thread is to teach the basics of the trade. Now days, too many young people are afraid to get their hands dirty. Any of you can do this work if you’ve got a little training in basic math. It can take a life time; but I’d do it again in a heartbeat.

JT

:beer

[onformula1]

John, what are you using to remove the plating? It looks like some kind of chemical stripping from the picture.

[atc007]

I Love every word of your posts. Seeing every configuration of powervalves has got to get maddening. It amazes me how many different machines you have to essentially get the same job done :). Thanx for taking the time!

[John Tice]

I use a 50% mix of water & Nitric acid. NEVER POUR THE WATER INTO THE ACID FIRST.

http://i1152.photobucket.com/albums/p497/johntice1/P6130199.jpg (http://s1152.photobucket.com/user/johntice1/media/P6130199.jpg.html)

The stripping of the plating takes between 1-8 hours of complete emersion. This is the same stuff that is used to etch the ports in a 2 stroke cylinder. Anything like studs & bolts will dissolve along with the plating

http://i1152.photobucket.com/albums/p497/johntice1/IMG_0010.jpg (http://s1152.photobucket.com/user/johntice1/media/IMG_0010.jpg.html)
I use a 5 gallon plastic bucket to store the solution which is then kept in a household garbage can

http://i1152.photobucket.com/albums/p497/johntice1/caac899a-f3f3-4ec3-a5d0-5826089a4aad.jpg (http://s1152.photobucket.com/user/johntice1/media/caac899a-f3f3-4ec3-a5d0-5826089a4aad.jpg.html)
This is a 20-30 minute etch in a nitric acid solution

SAFETY SAFETY SAFETY

[onformula1]

Thanks, john I wasn't sure if you used the same chemicals.

[fieldy]

John, he usually has several cylinders that are sitting on the boring machines and he probably also does that alone as you do. He more or less talks about a motor he is building for someone and wrestles it around on a bench some. Last time I stopped he was building a 70's motor to go in an original Husky, to be a daily street driver. A very cool guy to stop and see! You guys probably have similar mindsets about working without distractions. Since you were scratching your head, lol, I wanted to clear that up.

[Billy Golightly]

John, Thanks for sharing your knowledge over here with everyone. Always interesting and fascinating to me as well. Maybe one day I'll get smart and change vocations...:p

[John Tice]

Billy; you'll make more $$ selling property

[onformula1]

John, do you ever have any requests to make a sleeve then send it back to the engine builder so it can be ported from the backside?

[John Tice]

1 man in Romania has done a few by himself. This is the reason I’m attempting to get someone else interested; I’m 67 & will keep going as long as I can, maybe another 5 years or so. Since I’ve taken over NW Sleeve I’m the only person who specializes in this technique. The other 2, Advanced & LA Sleeve prefer to do the production runs. I taught Gary Metchkoff at LAS how to do this many years ago. No more secrets with the internet.

JT
:beer

[MTS]

Perhaps I missed it, but how do you use the nitric acid to do the the port lay out on the outside of the sleeve?

[ironchop]

John,

How much is the interference fit between the fresh bored alloy jug and the iron sleeve?

[John Tice]

This reply is for both of you gentlemen
The shrink fit varies between .003” - .005”; about .001” per inch of bore diameter. I’ve measured a lot of Yamaha RD twin cylinders in which the factory used about ½ the fit which we use.

After the new sleeves are etched in the acid; the cylinders are heated to 500deg again & the new sleeve falls out. A light clean up with a Scotch-Brite wheel & the port locations show up nicely.

http://i1152.photobucket.com/albums/p497/johntice1/P6130195.jpg (http://s1152.photobucket.com/user/johntice1/media/P6130195.jpg.html)

http://i1152.photobucket.com/albums/p497/johntice1/IMG_0014.jpg (http://s1152.photobucket.com/user/johntice1/media/IMG_0014.jpg.html)

http://i1152.photobucket.com/albums/p497/johntice1/IMG_0013.jpg (http://s1152.photobucket.com/user/johntice1/media/IMG_0013.jpg.html)

http://i1152.photobucket.com/albums/p497/johntice1/IMG_0012.jpg (http://s1152.photobucket.com/user/johntice1/media/IMG_0012.jpg.html)

http://i1152.photobucket.com/albums/p497/johntice1/P1011573.jpg (http://s1152.photobucket.com/user/johntice1/media/P1011573.jpg.html)
At times the base gasket area must be filled with weld material

http://i1152.photobucket.com/albums/p497/johntice1/PB230234.jpg (http://s1152.photobucket.com/user/johntice1/media/PB230234.jpg.html)

http://i1152.photobucket.com/albums/p497/johntice1/PB230232.jpg (http://s1152.photobucket.com/user/johntice1/media/PB230232.jpg.html)

http://i1152.photobucket.com/albums/p497/johntice1/PB250418.jpg (http://s1152.photobucket.com/user/johntice1/media/PB250418.jpg.html)


John Tice
503-593-2908 Alternate 541-508-3944
www.smallenginemachineworks.com & www.nwsleeve.com
Turning Custom Cylinder Sleeves Since 1971

[onformula1]

John, do you have people requesting a exhaust bridge on a cylinder that does not come with one stock?

Also, the same question, but on the intake side?

[John Tice]

I finally figured out how to make this con founded vertical machine work properly. I’m supposed to be out in shop #2 boring cylinders this weekend BUT it’s ZERO degrees outside & TOO cold to work. A few hours to do some writing about some success with the not so new vertical hone.

For a lifetime I’ve been around & working with Sunnen connecting rod hones. One of the simple things to keep the stones true on the Sunnen machine is to simply flip the cylinder around from time to time working it from the other end. Since I work while sitting down, I hang the cylinders from the ceiling with a dead dear hoist & bungee cords. This may sound silly but it works great for heavy cylinders & multi cylinders.


http://i1152.photobucket.com/albums/p497/johntice1/April%202014/P1011241.jpg (http://s1152.photobucket.com/user/johntice1/media/April%202014/P1011241.jpg.html)
A twin cylinder outboard motor block, notice the 4 bungee cords


http://i1152.photobucket.com/albums/p497/johntice1/P5290146.jpg (http://s1152.photobucket.com/user/johntice1/media/P5290146.jpg.html)
Simple & effective


http://i1152.photobucket.com/albums/p497/johntice1/Newboringstand001-1.jpg (http://s1152.photobucket.com/user/johntice1/media/Newboringstand001-1.jpg.html)
Illustrated is a floor model machine & a bench top Sunnen machine. They all function the same & take the same tooling.


http://i1152.photobucket.com/albums/p497/johntice1/securedownload1.jpg (http://s1152.photobucket.com/user/johntice1/media/securedownload1.jpg.html)
This setup has a stop mounted on the mandrel to limit the stroke length


http://i1152.photobucket.com/albums/p497/johntice1/P5200122.jpg (http://s1152.photobucket.com/user/johntice1/media/P5200122.jpg.html)
For honing all larger bore cylinders; 2-1/2” & up, either honing machine. We use the double stone tooling which was designed for splined cylinders.


http://i1152.photobucket.com/albums/p497/johntice1/January%202015/IMG_3053.jpg (http://s1152.photobucket.com/user/johntice1/media/January%202015/IMG_3053.jpg.html)


Back to the Vertical machine; sizing a 2 stroke bore is more problematic than cylinders without any ports. Since the end of the cylinder with the majority of the ports has less of a surface area, the hone head removes the material much quicker than the other end. Also for some reason; I’ve not figured this out yet. While clamped the hone seems to remove material faster from the top than the bottom. These aren’t large numbers, just enough to be a pain in the “ “.

I have found that clamping a 2 stroke cylinder right side up causes the hone to work the most accurately.
http://i1152.photobucket.com/albums/p497/johntice1/Vertical%20Hone/IMG_0423.jpg (http://s1152.photobucket.com/user/johntice1/media/Vertical%20Hone/IMG_0423.jpg.html)
This is a 71 Kawasaki F5 350cc rotary valve cylinder that we are replacing the sleeve & returning to standard bore.


With a vertical hone we are unable to flip the cylinder; instead with a vertical machine the operator dwells on any end which is tending to hone a little small. This procedure works but not nearly as well as flipping.

ON UTUBE; it’s amazing what you can learn & what may seem foolish to try. On another video it was mentioned that the larger more sophisticated machines used an ammeter to show the power usage. BINGO;

http://i1152.photobucket.com/albums/p497/johntice1/Vertical%20Hone/IMG_0422.jpg (http://s1152.photobucket.com/user/johntice1/media/Vertical%20Hone/IMG_0422.jpg.html)

Since we were unable to determine how much & when the cutting process is finished. I went to a local hardware store & found a clip on ammeter which answers my questions. When the tension adjustment on the hone head is increased, the amp load of the drive motor also increases. When the hone head is finished cutting, the amp load drops back to the no load setting. I’m also finding that the stock removable amount is very consistent. It’s easy to set the hone head tension & remove a specific amount of the bore diameter.
After almost a year or so we finally have a machine which really works. We still must set the skirt clearance on the Sunnen machine.

John Tice
503-593-2908 Alternate 541-508-3944
www.smallenginemachineworks.com & www.nwsleeve.com
Turning Custom Cylinder Sleeves Since 1971

[John Tice]

John, do you have people requesting a exhaust bridge on a cylinder that does not come with one stock?

Also, the same question, but on the intake side?

It’s customary with the larger bore cylinders to ad a rib or two to keep the piston from flopping so much. It would appear that this change makes the cylinder bore last considerably longer. I’m not as enthusiastic about adding a rib in the exhaust port unless the new sleeve is rather thick. The best way to go in the exhaust area is to add a couple of smaller ports to make a 3 exhaust port set up. This arraignment is only good when someone like Arlan Lehman builds a proper pipe for the machine.
JT

[onformula1]

John, can you offset bore one of your sleeves toward the intake side? I am planning a crazy project...LOL

[John Tice]

Yes we can offset a cylinder bore; log on to www.smokstak.com & run a search for offset cylinders. You will find discussions at length on the subject. This will be very helpful to you.

[El Camexican]

Thanks for taking the time to post all this up and share it, very informative!:beer

I hope it gets pasted up in the technical section by a mod soon.

[MTS]

Thank you for the great reply John, what kind of input would you have about boring a complete cylinder on a lath? Set up ect....I have a mid sized set up and always wanted to give it a try.

[John Tice]

Go to the 4 stroke page on my website; there is enough info to get you started. After you look this over Let me know what else you need. Cylinder boring on a lathe isn’t too bad of a way to get started. Go on line & purchase a $50 bore gauge & some micrometers. The budget tools are plenty good enough to get you started.

John Tice
503-593-2908 Alternate 541-508-3944
www.smallenginemachineworks.com & www.nwsleeve.com
Turning Custom Cylinder Sleeves Since 1971

[MTS]

Ah lots of good stuff on your site! The measuring tools I have...need to find a boring bar and give it a whirl! Thanks John.

[John Tice]

This time we’ve got another compilation of shots taken over the last couple of weeks. Since this thread is published in 3 different sites, there will be some duplication in some of them.

http://i1152.photobucket.com/albums/p497/johntice1/January%202016/IMG_0409.jpg (http://s1152.photobucket.com/user/johntice1/media/January%202016/IMG_0409.jpg.html)
This is a view of the 3 tools that are customarily used while turning the castings & cylinders for a new sleeve

We start with the later model cylinders which are plated in some way or another. The plated cylinders tend to have a much thinner sleeve.
The issue for you readers to think about is how thick must a sleeve in the cylinder be? I’ve got a program written in excel which calculates the minimum dimensions. Basically I use for my rule of thumb, a 1/16”, 1.25mm minimum thickness after the last bore job which is usually +.080”, 2mm over.

http://i1152.photobucket.com/albums/p497/johntice1/January%202016/IMG_0416%20-%20Copy%203.jpg (http://s1152.photobucket.com/user/johntice1/media/January%202016/IMG_0416%20-%20Copy%203.jpg.html)
For some reason the plating came loose in the exhaust port area. Either the port is too wide or the port wasn’t beveled properly.

After the plated cylinders are chemically stripped with acid; we then bore for the finished outside diameter & flange. Most of the time a flange is machined on the top of the sleeve. Other times we leave a ledge at the bottom of the cylinder to lock the sleeve in place.

This cylinder is mounted in a standard Kwik-Way stand in shop #2. The slot is so wide, 4-1/2” that we need to use a spacer plate to reduce the hole dimensions.
http://i1152.photobucket.com/albums/p497/johntice1/January%202016/IMG_0421.jpg (http://s1152.photobucket.com/user/johntice1/media/January%202016/IMG_0421.jpg.html)

http://i1152.photobucket.com/albums/p497/johntice1/January%202016/IMG_0420%20-%20Copy%202.jpg (http://s1152.photobucket.com/user/johntice1/media/January%202016/IMG_0420%20-%20Copy%202.jpg.html)
The top view of the cylinder with a spacer plate




With all plated 2 stroke cylinders in mind, the wall thickness must be considered while machining the ports. With a thinner sleeve clamping in the milling machine vice is much like gripping an egg shell.

http://i1152.photobucket.com/albums/p497/johntice1/January%202016/IMG_0433.jpg (http://s1152.photobucket.com/user/johntice1/media/January%202016/IMG_0433.jpg.html)
Many times the thin sleeve is clamped with the expanding mandrel inserted. This keeps the new sleeve tight.

At times we leave the rough inside diameter smaller until the ports are machined

http://i1152.photobucket.com/albums/p497/johntice1/January%202016/IMG_0378.jpg (http://s1152.photobucket.com/user/johntice1/media/January%202016/IMG_0378.jpg.html)
A finish ported CR250 cylinder needing top & bottom trimming

Completed snow mobile cylinder for Timberline Lodge
http://i1152.photobucket.com/albums/p497/johntice1/January%202016/IMG_0435.jpg (http://s1152.photobucket.com/user/johntice1/media/January%202016/IMG_0435.jpg.html)


Then we have the older Japanese cylinders with a cast in iron liner. Cast iron cylinder sleeves on the older vintage cylinders are usually hour glass shaped on the outside to keep them from slipping.
At times the bottom outside of the cylinder is welded to keep the new sleeve thinner

The bottom of a cylinder prepared for welding
http://i1152.photobucket.com/albums/p497/johntice1/P5100097.jpg (http://s1152.photobucket.com/user/johntice1/media/P5100097.jpg.html)

Cylinder bottom after welding
http://i1152.photobucket.com/albums/p497/johntice1/P1011573.jpg (http://s1152.photobucket.com/user/johntice1/media/P1011573.jpg.html)

http://i1152.photobucket.com/albums/p497/johntice1/P1011271.jpg (http://s1152.photobucket.com/user/johntice1/media/P1011271.jpg.html)

http://i1152.photobucket.com/albums/p497/johntice1/P1011270.jpg (http://s1152.photobucket.com/user/johntice1/media/P1011270.jpg.html)
Top & bottom views of a 500cc cylinder


http://i1152.photobucket.com/albums/p497/johntice1/January%202016/IMG_0437.jpg (http://s1152.photobucket.com/user/johntice1/media/January%202016/IMG_0437.jpg.html)

http://i1152.photobucket.com/albums/p497/johntice1/January%202016/IMG_0436.jpg (http://s1152.photobucket.com/user/johntice1/media/January%202016/IMG_0436.jpg.html)
Top & bottom view of a 71, F5 Kawasaki 350

The F-5 Kawasaki sleeve is much thicker because it was necessary to bore larger in order to remove the original cast in cylinder sleeve. In either case it can be seen how accurate the porting lines up when the port locations are marked by chemical etching.
I’m assuming that the thick sleeve on the customer’s first job is the reason for not sending us any more work. Maybe if the person studies the thread they will begin to understand the reasons why.

One of the objects of “How it’s Done” is to give encouragement to younger people to take up the trade & continue these skills into the next generation.
I’m speaking to a few people who are interested in the trade. Some are interested in enhancing their cycle shop capabilities & others are interested in another job after retirement. Whichever the reason; never be afraid to get your hands dirty.

Some people think that the reason for plated cylinders is because they dissipate the heat better. If so why do the iron lined cylinders take about the same skirt clearance as a plated cylinder? Don’t kid yourself; it’s much cheaper to manufacture a plated cylinder. IMO

I’m up until 9pm Pacific for any of you who’d like to have a conversation.


John Tice The "Old Dog" & getting Older
503-593-2908 Alternate 541-508-3944
www.smallenginemachineworks.com & www.nwsleeve.com
Turning Custom Cylinder Sleeves Since 1971

:beer

[John Tice]

We have been discussing how plated & iron lined cylinders wear & dissipate combustion heat. I believe there is little difference in heat dissipation between a plated cylinder & a tight fitting sleeve. Common sense would make us believe that the plated cylinder does move the heat around more efficiently; therefore when a sleeve is installed we always give the piston a +.0005” extra skirt clearance, that’s all. I’m sure that an irate customer would let us know if there was a problem.
I have however done more than a few jobs over because somebody else made an improper fit.

http://i1152.photobucket.com/albums/p497/johntice1/Album-2/PA300370.jpg
This cylinder was sent to us for repair; one of the poorest fits we’ve seen
Anyone who sends out their cylinder work had better well know & trust their machinist.

In the 2-stroke arena it is customary for the European engine manufacturers to shrink fit their cylinder liners/sleeves, CZ,Montessa,AJS, Husky & Bultaco.
Of the 2stroke Japanese manufacturers, the RD350 & 250 Yamaha twins are about the only cylinders which I’ve found with shrink fit liners. These cylinders are fit a little too loose to fit my satisfaction. When I reline a Yamaha twin the shrink fit is +.005”.
The 4-stroke Japanese engines; the cylinders have most always had shrink fit cylinder liners.

http://i1152.photobucket.com/albums/p497/johntice1/January%202016/IMG_0442.jpg
This is a picture of the inside of an RD350 Yamaha cylinder before the new sleeve is installed. With certain models of this particular engine the rear transfer ports must be re-contoured to get a proper fuel flow. As can be seen in this view, only the top of the cylinder will have a tight fit around the new sleeve.

In around 1973 or so Kawasaki started to produce cylinders with plated bores. It took some time for the other manufacturers to come on board. By the time water coolers were prevalent most all Japanese engines had plated cylinders.

http://i1152.photobucket.com/albums/p497/johntice1/January%202016/IMG_0444.jpg
This is a picture of a DT-175 Yamaha which has been bored for a new sleeve.

http://i1152.photobucket.com/albums/p497/johntice1/image-56.jpg
KT-100 Yamaha Kart engine cylinder

http://i1152.photobucket.com/albums/p497/johntice1/006.jpg
A non slip ring in a 360 Husky

http://i1152.photobucket.com/albums/p497/johntice1/P5130206.jpg
175cc KTM cylinder with many gripping rings

http://i1152.photobucket.com/albums/p497/johntice1/P5140211.jpg
The 175cc KTM cylinder was marked & pressed in cold


http://i1152.photobucket.com/albums/p497/johntice1/P1011457.jpg
There are some Evenrude cylinders which had a cylinder which is highly impregnated with silicon. These cylinders ave a high wear rate.

http://i1152.photobucket.com/albums/p497/johntice1/More%20cylinders/048-001.jpg
Many times the thickness of a sleeve depends on the thickness of the water jacket.


http://i1152.photobucket.com/albums/p497/johntice1/More%20cylinders/More%20cylinders%20-%201/P6120836-1.jpg
Another cylinder with a loose sleeve installation.

http://i1152.photobucket.com/albums/p497/johntice1/More%20cylinders/More%20cylinders%20-%201/P6110833.jpg
This cylinder has been properly honed & is waiting for a new sleeve.

Which ever you use; Plated or sleeved cylinders. This thread will help you understand, how & why each is used. I’m in the sleeve business so my preference is towards the replacement sleeve. Please don’t let the heat dissipation dispute be a reason for making a decision. Another reason for having a cylinder plated is when oversized pistons are not available. It’s not fair to install a sleeve in a 2-stroke cylinder when we can’t bore for wear. Wiesco & Wossner are waiting for a reason to stock more oversizes.


The art of cylinder repair & replacement has been waning away for many years now. There’s good $$ for those of you who aren’t afraid to get their hands dirty. Take a look at Craig’s List for a cheap Junker; many times a person can make minor repairs & pick up substantial amounts of cash.
Questions anybody? Give me a call.

John Tice
503-593-2908 Alternate 541-508-3944
www.smallenginemachineworks.com & www.nwsleeve.com
Turning Custom Cylinder Sleeves Since 1971

:beer

[350for350]

Here's my question. In one of the pictures above, there appears to be a Heli Coil in one of the head stud holes. You say that your acid soultion dissolves plating, bolts, and studs. How does it affect a Heli Coil? Just curious.

[John Tice]

Here's my question. In one of the pictures above, there appears to be a Heli Coil in one of the head stud holes. You say that your acid soultion dissolves plating, bolts, and studs. How does it affect a Heli Coil? Just curious.

Very good question; Heli coils are rolled from an alloy of stainless steel. Fortunately, Nitric acid has NO EFFICT on metal alloys which contain chrome & nickel. On occasion you will hear the term alloy 18 & 8, which stands for 18% chrome & 8% nickel which is a standard alloy of 300 series stainless steel. Alloy 303 is the free machining style of stainless & 316 is a standard high strength stainless alloy.
:beer

[John Tice]

A few weeks ago I answered a thread about Spark Testing. It came up again when Metal Finishing received a sheet of Titanium to polish. As I recalled titanium gives off a brilliant white spark while being sanded upon. Here are some results for you folk’s to take a look at. I walked around the shop and found a few hunks of metal to give a spark test to & take some pictures.

The question on what kind of material is my triple clamp made of? If it’s iron or steel it will give off different configurations of orange sparks. Also, iron alloys are attracted to a magnet.

Titanium
http://i1152.photobucket.com/albums/p497/johntice1/More%20cylinders/P3140624.jpg

Alloy 1060 Plow steel
http://i1152.photobucket.com/albums/p497/johntice1/More%20cylinders/P3150637.jpg

Alloy 1015 mild steel
http://i1152.photobucket.com/albums/p497/johntice1/More%20cylinders/P3150636.jpg

Ductile iron: edge of a C Clamp
http://i1152.photobucket.com/albums/p497/johntice1/More%20cylinders/P3150635.jpg

Grade 5, nuts & bolts
http://i1152.photobucket.com/albums/p497/johntice1/More%20cylinders/P3150634.jpg

High Carbon Tool steel, metal file
http://i1152.photobucket.com/albums/p497/johntice1/More%20cylinders/P3150633.jpg

Alloy 304 Stainless steel
http://i1152.photobucket.com/albums/p497/johntice1/More%20cylinders/P3150632.jpg

Cast Iron, cylinder sleeve
http://i1152.photobucket.com/albums/p497/johntice1/More%20cylinders/P3150629.jpg

There is no particular order in any of these pictures.
If you have a good eye around your shop, doing a spark test can quickly help you identify a material content. In our shop; Titanium is the only material which gives off a white spark while grinding.

Stay tuned
"Old Dog"

John Tice
503-593-2908 Alternate 541-508-3944
www.smallenginemachineworks.com & www.nwsleeve.com
Turning Custom Cylinder Sleeves Since 1971

[ATC-Eric]

Excellent read. Thanks for sharing!

[John Tice]

One of our last jobs was sleeving a KX100m cylinder. As usual I put the cylinder in the bucket of acid to strip the plating from the bore. I’ve discovered that the cylinders must be heated long enough to burn all of the oil off. When an oily cylinder is immersed in acid the oil leaves a film on the surface & contaminates the solution. It only takes an hour or so to remove the cylinder plating saving a nasty first cut with the cylinder boring machine.

http://i1152.photobucket.com/albums/p497/johntice1/January%202016/IMG_0486.jpg (http://s1152.photobucket.com/user/johntice1/media/January%202016/IMG_0486.jpg.html)


When we bore cylinders it’s customary to bore them upside down to ensure squareness to the crankshaft. When installing a sleeve we usually bore from the top to allow cutting for the upper flange. Because of the shape on the upper side of the cylinder, I needed to use spacers on the top side. Everything was going along fine when the cylinder slipped in the boring stand & started to cut a crooked bore.

This is a common mistake when using spacer bars.
http://i1152.photobucket.com/albums/p497/johntice1/January%202016/IMG_0470.jpg (http://s1152.photobucket.com/user/johntice1/media/January%202016/IMG_0470.jpg.html)
It’s difficult to see; with a close look the crooked bore can be seen!

One reason that I’m staying focused on cylinder work only is; we can most always repair a mistake!
Most cylinders have a lower portion which fits into the crankcase. The lower section also can be indicated on the outside which will return the cylinder to concentricity. This is the part where we need to mount the cylinder in the lathe & indicate from the outside of the cylinder base.
Any of you readers with a husky lathe can do accurate bore jobs using a 3 jaw chuck. I try to avoid this process only because it’s rather time consuming to set up. For you machine operators with a more complete shop; you’re probably thinking, why not use the Bridgeport? For me the lathe is much easier & accurate to set up

We start with a heavy set of blank top jaws to counter bore for the cylinder mounting jigs.
http://i1152.photobucket.com/albums/p497/johntice1/054.jpg (http://s1152.photobucket.com/user/johntice1/media/054.jpg.html)

http://i1152.photobucket.com/albums/p497/johntice1/January%202016/IMG_0462.jpg (http://s1152.photobucket.com/user/johntice1/media/January%202016/IMG_0462.jpg.html)

http://i1152.photobucket.com/albums/p497/johntice1/More%20cylinders/038.jpg (http://s1152.photobucket.com/user/johntice1/media/More%20cylinders/038.jpg.html)
Boring a big single

I started some time ago by having the foundry pour a few 1-1/2” thick aluminum discs. The discs are accurately machined to mount various cylinders for a re-bore. In order to save some time on the KX100, I used a mounting jig which was earlier set up for another jug.

http://i1152.photobucket.com/albums/p497/johntice1/More%20cylinders/040.jpg (http://s1152.photobucket.com/user/johntice1/media/More%20cylinders/040.jpg.html)


All of my jigs are numbered for locating as close as possible. We are first indicating for concentricity.
http://i1152.photobucket.com/albums/p497/johntice1/January%202016/IMG_0464.jpg (http://s1152.photobucket.com/user/johntice1/media/January%202016/IMG_0464.jpg.html)
The jigs are indicated in, in both directions; paper shims are used for the last few thousanths.

http://i1152.photobucket.com/albums/p497/johntice1/January%202016/IMG_0465.jpg (http://s1152.photobucket.com/user/johntice1/media/January%202016/IMG_0465.jpg.html)
A light cut is taken on the face


http://i1152.photobucket.com/albums/p497/johntice1/January%202016/IMG_0455.jpg (http://s1152.photobucket.com/user/johntice1/media/January%202016/IMG_0455.jpg.html)

http://i1152.photobucket.com/albums/p497/johntice1/January%202016/IMG_0456.jpg (http://s1152.photobucket.com/user/johntice1/media/January%202016/IMG_0456.jpg.html)

http://i1152.photobucket.com/albums/p497/johntice1/January%202016/IMG_0457.jpg (http://s1152.photobucket.com/user/johntice1/media/January%202016/IMG_0457.jpg.html)
A spacer bushing is machined from a piece of cylinder iron

We now can drill & tap the base gasket Foot Print
http://i1152.photobucket.com/albums/p497/johntice1/January%202016/IMG_0459.jpg (http://s1152.photobucket.com/user/johntice1/media/January%202016/IMG_0459.jpg.html)

http://i1152.photobucket.com/albums/p497/johntice1/More%20cylinders/050-1.jpg (http://s1152.photobucket.com/user/johntice1/media/More%20cylinders/050-1.jpg.html)
We now can accurately bore for the new sleeve & straighten out the crooked mess which I created on the Kwik-Way machine. This wasn’t a particularly profitable job but a happy customer is all that matters.

Next the blank sleeve is installed in the 500deg heated cylinder. I keep a slight pressure on the cylinder until the cylinder cools to Spit Hot.
http://i1152.photobucket.com/albums/p497/johntice1/P6210222.jpg (http://s1152.photobucket.com/user/johntice1/media/P6210222.jpg.html)

After the cylinder is etched the new sleeve is removed & cleaned up on the buffer.
http://i1152.photobucket.com/albums/p497/johntice1/image-13.jpg (http://s1152.photobucket.com/user/johntice1/media/image-13.jpg.html)
Charlie Brown; www.superiorsleeve.com “circa 1977”

http://i1152.photobucket.com/albums/p497/johntice1/January%202016/IMG_0476.jpg (http://s1152.photobucket.com/user/johntice1/media/January%202016/IMG_0476.jpg.html)

http://i1152.photobucket.com/albums/p497/johntice1/January%202016/IMG_0475.jpg (http://s1152.photobucket.com/user/johntice1/media/January%202016/IMG_0475.jpg.html)

http://i1152.photobucket.com/albums/p497/johntice1/January%202016/IMG_0472.jpg (http://s1152.photobucket.com/user/johntice1/media/January%202016/IMG_0472.jpg.html)
Seldom do the outside of the ports look the insides



When the sleeve is clamped in the mill, the port angles are carefully scrutinized. http://i1152.photobucket.com/albums/p497/johntice1/January%202016/IMG_0482.jpg (http://s1152.photobucket.com/user/johntice1/media/January%202016/IMG_0482.jpg.html)
With the exhaust ports; the center portion (Rib Area) is cut straight in. The outsides of the exhaust ports are cut to Center Line. Care must be taken with the port cut outs so inside the ports won’t overlap each other.

http://i1152.photobucket.com/albums/p497/johntice1/January%202016/IMG_0481.jpg (http://s1152.photobucket.com/user/johntice1/media/January%202016/IMG_0481.jpg.html)
Machining the ports is never an ordinary operation. The insides of all of the ports must be carefully studied. Ports on the outside of the sleeve are seldom like the inside.

http://i1152.photobucket.com/albums/p497/johntice1/January%202016/IMG_0479%20-%20Copy.jpg (http://s1152.photobucket.com/user/johntice1/media/January%202016/IMG_0479%20-%20Copy.jpg.html)
The shop height gauge is often used to mark outside port heights. After the ports are rufed in they are all polished with a carbide burr & sanding drums

After all of the ports are finish polished & the new sleeve is installed; the tops & bottom of the new sleeve is trimmed flush.
http://i1152.photobucket.com/albums/p497/johntice1/January%202016/IMG_0492.jpg (http://s1152.photobucket.com/user/johntice1/media/January%202016/IMG_0492.jpg.html)

http://i1152.photobucket.com/albums/p497/johntice1/January%202016/IMG_0424.jpg (http://s1152.photobucket.com/user/johntice1/media/January%202016/IMG_0424.jpg.html)

http://i1152.photobucket.com/albums/p497/johntice1/January%202016/IMG_0386.jpg (http://s1152.photobucket.com/user/johntice1/media/January%202016/IMG_0386.jpg.html)

Finish boring & honing about finishes off the project. I am boring from the bottom this time. As usual a small problem arises; The underside of the cylinder has a high spot which keeps things from chucking flat.
http://i1152.photobucket.com/albums/p497/johntice1/January%202016/IMG_0487.jpg (http://s1152.photobucket.com/user/johntice1/media/January%202016/IMG_0487.jpg.html)

http://i1152.photobucket.com/albums/p497/johntice1/January%202016/IMG_0488.jpg (http://s1152.photobucket.com/user/johntice1/media/January%202016/IMG_0488.jpg.html)
The bottom area was sanded slightly to relieve the high spot.

http://i1152.photobucket.com/albums/p497/johntice1/January%202016/IMG_0491.jpg (http://s1152.photobucket.com/user/johntice1/media/January%202016/IMG_0491.jpg.html)

http://i1152.photobucket.com/albums/p497/johntice1/January%202016/IMG_0490.jpg (http://s1152.photobucket.com/user/johntice1/media/January%202016/IMG_0490.jpg.html)

We can never do enough when finishing off a sleeve installation; all of this for a small sum of $175.00.
At least for an Old Retired Dog, I can take my time & do my Best.



John Tice
503-593-2908 Alternate 541-508-3944
www.smallenginemachineworks.com & www.nwsleeve.com
Turning Custom Cylinder Sleeves Since 1971
:beer

[Red Rider]

That's a lot of work for what's being charged. It's enough to make one think twice before complaining about prices for machine shop work.

[onformula1]

John, do you or can you make a aluminum sleeve for a big bore?

[John Tice]

Sometimes a sleeve installation will go “quick as a wink” I’ve always wondered about the hot shoe porting guys who will rip a customer some $500.00 or so to port a cylinder. These people have no idea of what the ports look like on the outside of the sleeve. I don’t ordinarily spend this much time on a new liner install. As long as the parts are returned properly, the customer will be happy with the job. We can always learn from a project & the next time be a little more efficient. We are also showing the readers how this work is done. The industry is in dire need of more people to step up & continue on with the trade.

I started on a KX500 yesterday which was returned from Millennium platers. Somehow the cylinder was cracked below the transfer ports on each side of the cylinder. I’m expecting to Vee out the cracks & TIG weld them shut. Another bore to clean things up will follow. I just hope that we don’t cut into the water jacket. This particular cylinder had a finely installed LA Sleeve in it. How in the world the outside of the aluminum cylinder cracked & the iron sleeve didn’t I’ll never know. Stat tuned; A story will follow this project in a couple of weeks.
JT
:wondering

[John Tice]

onformula1
I missed the question about the aluminum sleeves; You need to contact www.advancedsleeve.com or www.lasleeve.com. Either of them make this part, why do you need an aluminum liner?