First 2 stroke! Air fooler inside!

[frankydodo]

Hey guys! after my 200x build and sell. I bought my first 2 stroke atc!

Its a 1984 250r . Its in pretty good shape and almost all stock.

It started on first kick and man tha sound its just amazing! It has been stored for 10 years and the guys took it out of storage this year.

So power talk. What are the most popular upgrade for those little air foolers?

Carb: one from a 3rd gen? Or an aftermarket kehin Pj something?

Exhaust; will probably get a new dg pipe.

Air filter : uni , k&n ?

Also with all this what kind of jetting should i started with.?


The fender are a little faded so ill clean those. They appear to be aftearket maier. Also the kick starter , pedal are painted blue. I will put them back in black!
218754218755

[Jmoozy27]

Good find franky, I like the look of it just the way it is... I would maybe find some good oem fenders or maybe some aftermarket fiberglass rears. That thing is clean. Let one of us know before you sell this one.;). We may want to buy it.:lol:

[frankydodo]

Hehehe not for sale [emoji14]

and almost forgot, reed valve and reed cage . is the 3rd gen an upgrade for the 83-84?

[frankydodo]

Nobody knows? :(

[3 Wheel Drive]

Most Honda guys use the pwk 39 carb and upgrade to a Banshee thumb throttle w/ss banshee cable. :lol: Any carbon fiber reed should work fine, you can get a 300cc hondaline kit or high comp aluminum dg head.

[barnett468]

Its a 1984 250r . Its in pretty good shape and almost all stock.

So power talk. What are the most popular upgrade for those little air foolers?

Carb: one from a 3rd gen? Or an aftermarket kehin Pj something?

Exhaust; will probably get a new dg pipe.

Air filter : uni , k&n ?

Also with all this what kind of jetting should i started with.?


The fender are a little faded so ill clean those. They appear to be aftearket maier. Also the kick starter , pedal are painted blue. I will put them back in black!
218754218755

No help…that’s strange.

Ok, do you want it to scream to 10,000 rpm and have no bottom end or do you want just a moderate power increase mainly in mid range etc?

Here's just a few options.


COMPRESSION

Do a compression test . . The factory spec is 147 – 170 psi. . It should be around 170 – 175 to get the most performance out of it if you are near sea level and are running 91 - 93 octane . . If it is less than that, check out the top end and rebuild it as necessary . . If it is still less than that, you can send the head out to get machined to increase the compression . . You can also try to find a DG head as suggested..

There is no point in trying to increase power unless your compression is at least near or above 170.


CARB SIZE

The stock one is a 30 mm . . A 34 or 35 is a big jump, and I would not get one bigger than that unless you want max power because it will lose bottom end power . . It is extremely easy to over carburete an engine.


CARB TYPE

A Mikuni 34 VM is a good basic carb with a round slide . . Another good carb is a Keihin PWK 35mm which has a flat slide . . The flat slide carbs tend to increase bottom end throttle response a bit.


EXHAUST PIPE

Different pipes provide different types of power delivery.


AIR FILTER

If yours is bad then I would get a Uni Filter stock type replacement.


ADDITIONAL POWER

If you test ride it and decide you want more top end rpm and less bottom end power, you can try a V Force or ESR reed cage . . If that’s still not enough, you can have some porting done on the cylinder.

[oscarmayer]

before you go tossing crap at it, decide what you want. as posted above, you need to decide if you want top end or over all power improvement. next is how much you are really actually going to spend on this. that determines what you do. me, first thing I would do is tear into it, inspect the top end and clutch, then replace all oil seals and gaskets to side covers and jug and head gaskets. I would seriously consider talking to a professional porter about an overall porting job. use CF reeds in your stock cage and maybe a pipe upgrade. Carb is defiantly a must. stock I think is a 38mm I would look into a 40mm carb.

if i'm wrong and stock is a 36mm then yes the banshee 39mm is a perfect next step.

[frankydodo]

Its not a 3rd gen its an air fooler. Stock carb were 30mm and people use to put 3rd gen 34mm one on them as an upgrade

And itd my first two stroke and from here i can tell you that i really feel a powerband difference with my old 4 stroke atc lol.

But im pretty sure that ill be looking low end abd mid end power more than top end.

[barnett468]

Its not a 3rd gen its an air fooler. Stock carb were 30mm and people use to put 3rd gen 34mm one on them as an upgrade

And itd my first two stroke and from here i can tell you that i really feel a powerband difference with my old 4 stroke atc lol.

But im pretty sure that ill be looking low end abd mid end power more than top end.


ok, as suggested above, it is wise to check the crank seals however, if it currently runs fine and idles back down quickly and you can kill the engine by turning the idle screw, they are most likely just fine . . its a pita to test the seals . . below is a how to video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdq7NRcUIp8


EXHAUST

I see you have the stock exhaust sooo...if you are on a budget, and even if you are not, i would start by keeping the orig exhaust and just replacing the silencer with a straight thru, non spark arrestor type . . you might consider buying the absolute cheapest one you can find, because if you still want more power, the silencer might not fit the pipe you buy so you will be out some cash but you can get half of what you paid for it back on ebay so no big deal . . you need a spark arrestor for many parks . . check online for park requirements.

simply changing the silencer will increase your power by around 2 million percent because they are so restrictive.


CARBURETOR

The sizes and types i posted will be fine . . the honda 34 mm is an oval bore which improves low end response over a round bore carb and will also be fine . . if the inside of your intake boot is smaller thsn the bore of the carb, it will not allow the csarb to flow to its full capsacity in which case, it needs to be opened up which is a pita and it may not be able to be opened up enough anyway.

if you can not open it up, you need to use a different intake boot [carburetor adapter], unfortunately, i am not well versed on this intake boot so hopefully someone else that is extremely familiar with then will help . . i think member yeagerb might know so you can also send him a pm.

if you buy a different reed cage, it will allow for the bigger carb, HOWEVER, it may reduce your bottom end performance a little . . bigger is NOT always better.


AIR CLEANER TO CARBURETOR BOOT

This is another potential problem area because the rear of the carb is bigger on some aftermarket ones and possibly on the honda 34 mm one . . if the carb is just maybe 1/4" bigger, you can likely put 4 wraps of masking tape around the end of the carb to increase its size slightly, then stick the carb end of the boot in boiling water for around 1 minute, then quickly install it on the carb . . immediately rub a piece of ice or run some water on the outside of the boot . . this will help it maintain its new shape.


JETTING

If you change the silencer or air filter etc, you must install bigger jets in your carb . . do not just change the silencer or filter then go screamin down the road, because the screamin may suddenly stop if your piston seizes because the jetting was too lean.

jetting depends on engine mods and elevation and temperature . . if your elevation is around 1500 ft or lower, the stock jetting is really close . . remove your spark plug and tell us what it looks like or post a photo.

If it stutters/burbles even the tiniest bit when you accelerate, it is rich somewhere . . If it simply hesitates as if it is out of gas then accelerates, it is lean.

Jetting can be determined to some degree by reading the spark plug . . it is best to have a new or very clean plug.

The plug on the right is shiny which means it is wet which means its oily . . It is possibly rich too but its hard to tell because of black deposits from the oil . . This engine should be repaired . . The middle plug is perfect . . The left plug is lean.

..............http://i.imgur.com/eCSbd.jpg

...............http://www.4secondsflat.com/Plug-2.jpg


This plug is bone dry so the black means it is rich . . If both the threads and the porcelain is black, i would start by reducing the main jet size first . . In the case of a plug that has extremely heavy deposits like this, I would go down 3 sizes on the main because just one will not be nearly enough and two will likely no be enough . . Four would be too much.

http://www.dansmc.com/spcarbon.jpg



I would also do the following . . if the gas level is incorrect, it may not run properly and can be difficult to jet.

If the gas is old or yellow at all, change it . . Yellow gas is either oil or contaminated by rust in the tank or both.

Check the float level . . If it is excessively high, it can cause a rich or flooding condition.

..................Here's an example of it a little too high . . It should be just below the solid black line in your case . . If it is at the dotted line, it will still not cause a problem even though it is just a little high . . If if is above the dotted line, I would definitely fix it by bending the small metal tab slightly that depresses the needle, slightly upward toward the top of the carb.

If the float is plastic, it requires heat to bend it, and this should only be done by someone whom is very experienced, otherwise you might end up with a puddle of melted plastic which will no longer fit very well.

.................................http://ww2.justanswer.com/uploads/motoforge/2010-08-01_013312_Float_level_adjustment.jpg


............................................. Here's another in which you can see the is level way too low.


........................................http://www.bbburma.net/FujiFotos/FloatHeight/DSCF2434.jpg[/QUOTE]


2 STROKE OIL

What are you using or what do you want to use or do you want suggestions?


OIL RATIO

In your case, depending on the type/brand of oil, I would run a ratio of 32:1 as opposed to a richer mix like 20:1.


TRANSMISSION OIL

what are you using or what do you want to use or do you want suggestions?


SERVICE MANUAL

Here are free online service manuals that another member made posted.

http://www.oscarmayer.net/atc/manuals/

[barnett468]

.

Here's another post because i have no edit button.


COMPRESSION

Just a reminder, compression is your friend . . increasing compression will increase power EVERYWHERE.
.


oops,

[frankydodo]

Holy macaroni! Thanks a million Barnett!

Since its my first 2 stroke ill ask for some professional help for thing that ill be not sure like float level and jetting.

So far my upgrade will be

Dg National expension pipe

Dg muffler

Uni air filter with cover vent maybe?

Keihin PE34 from 85 or PJ34 from the 86

And for the oil mix. I drained the fuel tank when i got it because the guy run crappy oil at a 20:1 ratio i bought a quart of Lucas 2 stroke oil amd did a 32:1 mix and it seems pretty good but what oil would you recommend?

I see alot of people running Klotz but i saw syntech oil syntech with Castor oil which i dont know what the heck is castor oil .

[yaegerb]

Best read on oils and premix I have ever come across. Harry talks a bit about castor oils and their benefits in this article.

http://www.klemmvintage.com/oils.htm

Cliff notes: castor is a bean oil, doesn't mix well with gas but is arguably the best oil in the world to run especially with engines that run under max loads constantly. If you run castor I recommend maxima 927.

In my experience, Honda HP 2 stroke oil works as well as any, mixes homogenously with any type of gas and burns cleaner than most.

[barnett468]

Holy macaroni! Thanks a million Barnett!

Since its my first 2 stroke ill ask for some professional help for thing that ill be not sure like float level and jetting.

So far my upgrade will be

Uni air filter with cover vent maybe?

Keihin PE34 from 85 or PJ34 from the 86

And for the oil mix. I drained the fuel tank when i got it because the guy run crappy oil at a 20:1 ratio i bought a quart of Lucas 2 stroke oil amd did a 32:1 mix and it seems pretty good but what oil would you recommend?

I see alot of people running Klotz but i saw syntech oil syntech with Castor oil which i dont know what the heck is castor oil .

no prob, you're welcome . . lots of people here know lots of stuff by maybe many are on vacation at the moment which might be why you didn' get a lot of replies.

as far as oil goes, i'll post a few suggestions later but for now i would at least say i would be hesitant to run oil with castor oil in it, mainly because it can be a little harder to find if you need some while out riding and it does not mix well with non castor oil.

klotz makes a few types, if it is super techniplate, it's decent and popular but it has castor oil . . maxi,a super m is semi synthetic and very good for your app, maxima k2 is full synthetic and very and could be mixed a little leaner like 36:1 unless you hold it wide open all the time.

32:1 is fine and dandy for the klotz, good choice.

i dont know what a cover vent is unless you mean putting a hole in the air box lid.

So what does your spark plug look like?

[frankydodo]

Yeah i mean cutting a hole in the airbox cover. Mine has a 2x4 hole in it. I changed the sparkplug yesterday just because i didnt knew when was the last time it was changed. I put a br8es gapped at 0.75mm. The old one was black like darth vader's helmet lol. But the trike had idle a little before shutting it off and i was not running wot before also

I also cleaned the carb and it has a 140 main in it. I assume it was because it has a hole in the airbox cover. I bought a Moose rebuild kit that has the factory main 130. I sealed the hole in the box and put the new 130 main in it for now and ill do a wot run to see if im a little lean

[barnett468]

.
Xlnt..........

[frankydodo]

Just ordered a bunch of part

Pro taper SE with Atv high bend

New MSR clutch perch with lever

New front master cylinder

DG muffler. Will buy tune pipe eventually.

Uni air filter.

Now i still dont know if i will jet the stock 30mm or look for a pe or pj34

[barnett468]

.



Now i still dont know if i will jet the stock 30mm or look for a pe or pj34

well jets are cheap and carbs are expensive . . one option would to be to jet your carb so its close . . i would guess that it was jetted fairly close before, so going under that assumption, if you live below 1000 ft above sea level, i would start by going up 2 sizes on the main.

after it is jetted, if you decide that you want a little less bottom end and a little more upper mid and top end, you can buy a bigger carb at that point.

[frankydodo]

Good point. I think ill keep my pe30 since it has been rebuild with a moose rebuild kit! So if the stock main on a 84 was 130 and i have the following parts

Uni filter
Dg muffler with stock expension pipe

I should buy jet from 132 to 150? Or ??

I look at the price of those and genuine keihin are like 7-8 buck a piece. More expensive than what i think haha

And pilot i think that if i have to richen the mixture all the way to get a good brown idle plug color i need a bigger pilot? And same if i have to lean too much get a smaller one?

[frankydodo]

Well received alot of parts!

The New Dg muffler is installed but i had to paint it in black because in quebec you can't ride with an aftermarket silencer. So in black it doesn't caught the eye haha. Sounds amazing.

Also installed the Pro taper ATV HIGH bend handlebar! Also a good upgrade from my old bent one. Actually they were alot more bent then they looks on the bike.

Msr clutch lever and new clutch cable. This was one of the most needed item. msr lever feels great and when i removed the old cable i was not even able to pull it by hand, It was really hard to pull with the stock lever.

Also new front brake master, the old one had a cracked reservoir and also need a rebuild, so i decided to buy a new one!

A black seat cover, because i always loved the Red/black combo and as you can see my older 200x build, i'm far from being a NOS, oem, museum condition, mint factory guy, And i fell ok with that! Its not that i don't love the blue seat cover, it's just that it was the only blue part of the bike and it doesn't seems to fit right. Love the black one, the fitment was really great!

Ah and also, 350x headlight, i really think that its the most beautiful atc light that honda made back in the 80's. But damn those are expensive as hell. Love it of course!

http://i917.photobucket.com/albums/ad19/frank336/Mobile%20Uploads/GOPR0113_1440697798235_high_zps4qpwegb8.jpg (http://s917.photobucket.com/user/frank336/media/Mobile%20Uploads/GOPR0113_1440697798235_high_zps4qpwegb8.jpg.html)
http://i917.photobucket.com/albums/ad19/frank336/Mobile%20Uploads/GOPR0114_1440697798235_high_zpswwpsy5d0.jpg (http://s917.photobucket.com/user/frank336/media/Mobile%20Uploads/GOPR0114_1440697798235_high_zpswwpsy5d0.jpg.html)
http://i917.photobucket.com/albums/ad19/frank336/Mobile%20Uploads/GOPR0115_1440697798235_high_zpspi15f6bu.jpg (http://s917.photobucket.com/user/frank336/media/Mobile%20Uploads/GOPR0115_1440697798235_high_zpspi15f6bu.jpg.html)
http://i917.photobucket.com/albums/ad19/frank336/Mobile%20Uploads/GOPR0116_1440697798235_high_zpskpdtmjoo.jpg (http://s917.photobucket.com/user/frank336/media/Mobile%20Uploads/GOPR0116_1440697798235_high_zpskpdtmjoo.jpg.html)
http://i917.photobucket.com/albums/ad19/frank336/Mobile%20Uploads/GOPR0118_1440697798235_high_zpszrnehgol.jpg (http://s917.photobucket.com/user/frank336/media/Mobile%20Uploads/GOPR0118_1440697798235_high_zpszrnehgol.jpg.html)

Still alot of cleaning to do but its starting to look like i want it!

Frank

[Jmoozy27]

How does she run? Did you rejet? What jets?

[frankydodo]

142 but still need some adjustment.