OK guys, I'm scratching my head on this one

[RIDE-RED 250r]

Trike: '85 250r

Issue: Last july while riding it all of the sudden acted like it loaded up a plug really bad. Swapped out plug and not even a little improvement, not even for a second. The slightest amount of throttle above off-idle and she would just die out.

So, back to camp on the end of a rope.

Nest morning, I pulled the stator cover and checked for corrosion on the pulse generator and corresponding magnet on the flywheel.. All clean and in good order.

Next thing I check is the carb. Clean as a whistle and all jets and fuel circuits clean and clear.

So after that, I decided I would check reeds once I got home from the trip and parked it.

Fast forward to today. I haven't touched it since then. I was cleaning out the garage to make room for my boat and rolled the trikes out. For some reason I decided to kick the 250r over just for the heck of it. She fired on the 4th kick and ran like a watch! I tore the ever loving poo out of my yard for about 15 minutes and she never skipped a beat! What??!!! Apparently, my Honda is so good it fixed itself over the winter??!! LMAO!!

But seriously, my first suspect is to swap out the coil. I have heard of coils on other machines that can quit after some run time when the coil begins to break down.

This really puzzles me, but one thing I am fairly certain of is that the issue is not mechanical or fuel related. Ignition/electrical is the only thing I have experienced such intermittent symptoms that come and go like this. Obviously, I don't feel like I can trust this trike for a long ride on Tug Hill right now. SOMETHING went wrong last July.

I'm just wondering what you guys would replace first. I'm thinking coil. In my experience, CDI's work or they don't. I am thinking the same is true for the ignition side of the stator as well.

Electrical is not my strongest suit. Anybody have any suggestions or past experiences you would like to share?

I just don't want to start blindly throwing parts at this, especially considering it's running great right now, I can't really be sure if I am addressing the problem.

Thanks guys! :beer

[atc007]

CDI, coil, stator in that order. Maybe she just likes this weather :)...Stator being the only one you can really "test" easily. Swapping the cdi after she acts up again,,,easy ..

[nd4speed]

How different was the July day with heat and humidity compared to today?

When electrical stuff gets hot, then the problems will really show up.
When my stator coil went bad it would bog and die but fire right up and run for a couple minutes then repeat. But that did not fix itself over a winter. My guess is your electrical is fine though. Just a guess though.


Jetting and air leak. Leak down test? Hot and Lean?

I had a carb that ran when sun was high and hot but at sunset cool off the quad would start bogging dying and running real bad. It had a clogged jet passage I could never unclog so I bought a new one and the problem never happened again.

[RIDE-RED 250r]

I did a leak down on this engine when I put it together in 2013, I don't remember now the exact details, but they were satisfactory. I have had no changes in how it runs to any degree beyond what would be considered normal for changes due to weather conditions. No indications of an air leak.

It was a warm day, about 80 deg. Today it was low 70's. The problem came on like you flipped a switch. Spark plug came out very wet. As I was trying to nurse it back to camp, it got progressively worse and wouldn't even idle. My thoughts were that I had an ignition problem and the pipe was getting loaded up with unburned fuel compounding the problem.

I think I will crack open my service manual and see if there are any OHM specs for the coil and start poking around with a meter. It's supposed to be in the low 80's here tomorrow, maybe Ill rip it around the yard for awhile and see if I can get it to act up again and swap some parts.

[Mosh]

Lesson one......fix it while its broke.....you have a much better success rate of catching the problem, instead of what you have going on now.

IMO...after experiencing very same scenarios on multiple 250r bikes over the years , I say the coil crapped on you. Typically stators just die forever.... or bust up under hard load but run decent at idle or light loads. Cdi's just die or you can smack on em with a screwdriver handle and the bike will quit. Get it running and spray a saltwater mix with a window bottle on the coil and wire and see what happens. Do it cold and hot.

[atc300r]

I would change the coil first. I had similar problem with my 85 250r a few years ago.Mine would start and run ,idle all day long but if you got over 1/4-1/2 throttle it acted like the choke was on.The symtoms started when I was drag racing I went for one run it ran great next run I took off and about half way down the track it sputted and ran like crap till I changed the coil.I rebuilt carb, changed plugs ,new crank bearings and seals and new airfilter. Then one day I happen to think COIL I never had changed the coil on it since I bought it in 85. I put another coil on and it fired and would rev to the moon lol.

[poolieZerUK]

For what it's worth,
experience tells me that faulty coils tend to breakdown when hot.

Not sure of the exact circumstances you have experienced,
but that's where I would be looking first as it's an easy fix to start with.

[hatc200x1]

I have been having starting issues, and just poor running issues on my 84r. Would sound like it was on choke when on the throttle. But some days it would run perfect, I re-jetted it, ran PERFECT, brought it to a friends house, and it ran like crap. It was to the point that if I gassed the throttle it would just die out. I checked the spark on it and it was very poor, swapped ignition coil with good working one, swapped CDI, did everything. I finally changed out the stator and it fired up first kick and revved to the moon. What I originally thought was a jetting issue was just that 30 year old stator. Now I need to re-jet it because I was compensating for poor spark with jetting.

I would definitely carry spare parts because guaranteed it will act up again, At the worst possible moment...

[RIDE-RED 250r]

Thanks for sharing all of the advice and experiences guys. Yes, it would have been better to go after it ASAP, but for various reasons I just didn't get around to it.

I think I have a spare '85 CDI kicking around. I always carry a spare CDI with me when riding the hill. But I don't think I have a spare coil.

I know the '85 and '86-on CDI's are different. I am pretty sure the coils are the same. Can anyone verify that?

Guess I better post a WTB for a coil and do some cold and hot OHM checks on the stator. Gotta take my boy to baseball practice here shortly, so I probably won't get to it today.

Thanks again guys. :)

[82 250r]

The 85-86 coil is the same and available.

COIL, IGNITION Honda part 30510-MK4-405 (http://www.servicehondapsn.com/fiche_section_detail.asp?section=2461433&category=ATVs&make=Honda&year=1985&fveh=131330)

[RIDE-RED 250r]

Bringing this thread back up for an update...

I had since rode the trike and found that after 15 or so minutes of riding the problem came back. When it would act up, I would shut it down then it would refire and run perfect for another few minutes and the cycle would repeat.

That very day I tried swapping the coil and the problem persisted.

Fast forward: today I swapped in a known functional stator and pulse generator. Trike starts up and all lights work as normal. It's a crappy day out here weather-wise so I'll have to take it out and work it another day to see if the stator and pulse generator replacement fixed it.

To be continued.....

[82 250r]

I had a similar problem where the trike would start and idle normal for about 5 min then die and not start. After an hour and it would start normal and die after 5 min again.
Turned out to be a short in the stator after it warmed up.

[RIDE-RED 250r]

That's what I was thinking was the problem with mine. I'm planning to take it out for a ride this week to see how it does.

If the problem persists I'll swap out the CDI. I did the stator because given the symptom, I felt it the most likely candidate after eliminating the coil as a suspect, and I already had an extra on hand.

[oscarmayer]

Mine was with the flywheel loosening up. Once we figured out it had sheared the off but the keyway was fine. (This was track side) we used an Allen key, grounded it to fit the key way and. Reinstalled everything. No more issues. Not saying your issue. It check out the electrical side to confirm everything is solid.


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[RIDE-RED 250r]

You bet Oscar. My brother had a flywheel that was failing. The rivets that fasten the flywheel to it's hub can work loose with age. Luckily, he caught it before it did any damage to anything other than the stator. I did check my flywheel yesterday for looseness and everything seems good to go.

[big specht]

Did you alread swap out the plug? I just got done messing with a xr600 with a ignition problem that end up being the brand new spark plug I bought , swapped it out with another ngk plug and it ran like a champ. I did the same thing that everybody said to do ,get it to ack up and start swapping out parts that's how I found my problem. And never rule out a new part cause I've been burnt on that while working on cars.

[Dirtcrasher]

The one weird problem that has had me stumped a couple times was the fuel delivery.

I'd kill the motor and shut off the fuel as soon as it bogged. I loosened the carburetors drain cap and almost no fuel was in there. Both times I found semi-plugged filters in the petcock.

I tore them out and put clear inline filters and that took care of the issue. However, that was metal tanks and not plastic like yours.

Just a thought....

[RIDE-RED 250r]

Steve it's funny you suggest that as that is my exact plan if swapping out ignition and electrical components doesn't pan out. :beer

Big Specht: swapped plugs at least three times the day this issue first cropped up it.

[deathman53]

I would say it is the coil, but if you swapped it with a known good one, it would likely be something else. I would still buy a new coil, it highly unlikely a new coil will fail on you(and they do at the worst times). Cdis are rare to go bad, it does happen. This happened to me........07 ktm 250xc. It starting not running good, stalling, sputtering, barely going and finally crapped out on me. I was at a road and just got out of the sand pit, so I was lucky. I had barely any spark, so new plug, somewhat more spark. And would start and die quickly and minutes later not start at all. I called my friend to get me. Brought bike home, got a new coil....it started, but died out quickly, it had no spark. Different cdi.....no change, new wiring harness.......no change, new stator....good spark at first and ran, but no change after it ran some. I then put in a new flywheel key.......same deal as the stator. I was getting annoyed and stumped. My builder said it could be the flywheel, its very very rare. He told me to remove the flywheel, re-install it and give it a few taps with a dead blow hammer to seat it fully. It started after that, ran for a few and died out. I tapped the flywheel and it ran, then died out. So I ordered a new flywheel and installed it......end of any problems. The least likely thing was the problems and I wasted over $300 on things I didn't need. Swap the flywheel, your problem is likely there.

[fabiodriven]

Flywheel key! Lmfao!!

But seriously, since I was a kid I've yet to ever see a coil fail outside of the modular Ford engines and the Lincoln LS engines. It's super easy to change most times, many times not expensive, but personal experience has taught me to disregard the coil as being the problem unless further diagnosis tells me otherwise, which simply never happens. I'm not saying it's impossible for a coil to fail, obviously it happens, but my money would be on the CDI or stator as I've seen both of those fail multiple times on various machines, far more often than coils. A CDI can absolutely work periodically or whenever it decides to and then cut right out again, happens all the time. Ask anyone who owns an XR600 or XR650L about that.

I also agree with checking the petcock screen. Seen that cause issues far more often than coils as well.


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[oscarmayer]

I would say it is the coil, but if you swapped it with a known good one, it would likely be something else. I would still buy a new coil, it highly unlikely a new coil will fail on you(and they do at the worst times). Cdis are rare to go bad, it does happen. This happened to me........07 ktm 250xc. It starting not running good, stalling, sputtering, barely going and finally crapped out on me. I was at a road and just got out of the sand pit, so I was lucky. I had barely any spark, so new plug, somewhat more spark. And would start and die quickly and minutes later not start at all. I called my friend to get me. Brought bike home, got a new coil....it started, but died out quickly, it had no spark. Different cdi.....no change, new wiring harness.......no change, new stator....good spark at first and ran, but no change after it ran some. I then put in a new flywheel key.......same deal as the stator. I was getting annoyed and stumped. My builder said it could be the flywheel, its very very rare. He told me to remove the flywheel, re-install it and give it a few taps with a dead blow hammer to seat it fully. It started after that, ran for a few and died out. I tapped the flywheel and it ran, then died out. So I ordered a new flywheel and installed it......end of any problems. The least likely thing was the problems and I wasted over $300 on things I didn't need. Swap the flywheel, your problem is likely there.

to add to this, one of the "quirks" that the Yami YZ85 engine has was a flywheel seating. the fix was the following.
take off the oil seal really good to the edge of the crank.
get some fine valve lapping compound. out it on the crank and w/o a key, slide the flywheel on. now pushing and spinning at the same time, twist the flywheel on the crank. this like valves laps the 2 surfaces to be matching when done. it takes about 5-10 minutes to get it perfectly aligned. you will know because every edge of the flywheel inside and the crank will be a light grey color. now, take some rags or paper towels, and wipe the paste off, then use carb cleaner to finish cleaning everything up. once everything is FULLY cleaned, re-assembly and use a small squirt of WD-40 on the crank before you slide the flywheel on. this will ensure proper seating and contact. this will make certain the 2 are set to be perfectly mated together and will never vibrate or wobble that could cause issues.

good luck.


side note:
are you sure your flywheel is the correct one for your year? I was informed the 85 and 86 flywheels are slightly different.

[RIDE-RED 250r]

As far as I am aware, the flywheel is an '85. Whole rest of the engine is '85. After reading the above, I am not saying the flywheel is not the cause, but I can say I don't think it's the wrong flywheel as this engine ran perfect without fail for a good while on that flywheel before this issue.

Here is something interesting I found out about the stators though:

When I pulled a spare working stator and pulse generator set out of my parts bin, the first thing I noticed was that I had to cut back and re-solder the stator output wires to their leads on the stator. The stator has several different solder contacts to connect wires to. I noted what contacts the wires were connected to on the outgoing stator were different than the way they were connected on the replacement unit. Huh???? Well, I decided just to re-solder the wires on the replacement stator to the same contacts they were originally hooked to. OK, easy enough right?? Well, I went to bolt the replacement stator into the engine and noticed that the 3 stator mount bolts I just pulled out when I removed the old stator were too big to fit into the mounting holes on the replacement! Apparently, there are large and small mounting bolt stators for the 250r. I have no idea what sizes coincide with which years, but they are clearly different in that respect. I had to drill out the mounting bolt holes on the replacement to mount it up. Maybe this is a well known fact, but I certainly was caught unaware!

Anyway, the good new is that my soldering job was good, and the trike fired up complete with fully functional lighting.

I just got home from my son's little league game, so I didn't get a chance to take it out for a test run today. I will be doing so by no later than this weekend.

Thanks guys for all of the input. It's good to have fresh opinions and suggestions at times like this. If the problem persists, I'll shut the fuel petcock off immediately upon the symptom's return and check on how much fuel is in the bowl. If fuel doesn't seem to be a problem, I'll swap in a spare CDI. I had the good fortune of scooping up a couple of known working '85 style CDI's from another forum to keep on hand a couple of years ago. :)

[deathman53]

maybe you have a stator from another bike in your parts bin???? most places list 85-88 stators and flywheel the same(even though flywheels were slightly different weights over the years), they list 89 stator as different-it has a different connector, but otherwise the same. 89 flywheel is the same as 85-88 flywheel also. I have 85, 86, 88 and 89 stator, they are all identical in the mounting. If you don't use lighting, go with a cr 250 ignition, its much better, esr has adapters for the 00-01 and 02-07. You can get lights for them too, there is lighted stators sold for them also.

[RIDE-RED 250r]

Hmm, what you are saying about the stators is interesting.

The stator I had to drill out the mounting holes is visually 100% identical to the one I removed, with the exception of the mounting hole size and wire connection locations as I mentioned. I don't remember if it came out of my '85 parts engine I have sitting on the shelf, or if it came out of my big bore R that I replaced with a Ricky Stator unit a few years ago. Funny story there, I replaced that stator trying to remedy an issue that ended up being caused by the Hot Shot CDI that trike was running when I got it...

The "small hole" stator looked like it used the same size bolts as used to mount the stator cover, clutch cover, etc. What are they, 5mm??? They are the ones that have the 8mm head. The "large hole" stator I pulled out of the engine had larger Phillips screws. I guess it's entirely possible that someone, somewhere along the lines stripped the threads in the stator mount holes, then drilled and tapped to the next size up??

[82 250r]

The stock bolts should have the 8mm head. You can see one of the bolts in this pic

http://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk261/bmwic155/P1000883_zps361f4938.jpg (http://s282.photobucket.com/user/bmwic155/media/P1000883_zps361f4938.jpg.html)

[oscarmayer]

glad it worked out sir! keep us informed how she runs this weekend!

[JesseA420]

i vote put a cr ign in it :)

[RIDE-RED 250r]

Well, I spoke with my brother today who is the previous owner of this particular engine and asked if he ever needed to drill and tap the mount bolt holes to the next size up and he said he did not. But he did say he thought the hardware (3 large zinc plated machine screws) was a bit odd when he had to replace the stator and flywheel when he owned it due to a flywheel failure.

I'm thinking someone did the drill and re-tap at some point over the years.

Anyway, I got it out and rode it for about 20 minutes and so far no trouble. Usually the problem would manifest in less than 20 minutes of ride time. It's looking like the stator and pulse generator swap might have cured it, but I won't be sure till I get more ride time on it.

Will post an update when get a chance to take it out again.

Ya know what guys, a little food for thought that just struck me out of nowhere: At one time I owned a '98 Arctic Cat ZR600 EFI. These sleds were notorious for stator failures. And As I sit here hashing this over in my mind, I remember when the stator went out on that sled. It acted exactly the same way this R is/was acting. It would idle, somewhat, but would not take throttle for beans. Shut it down and let it sit a few minutes and you could ride a few minutes again and the cycle would repeat.

Jesse: I'd love to do a CR swap on both of my R's at some point.... All in due time. :beer

[Dirtcrasher]

All flywheel key shearing aside, lol; The ONLY issue that left me stumped (even left it home for TF) was out of all my 86 350X crate motors, one had a larger ID flywheel. It fit, it bolted up, it had spark. But NOT enough to start it.

I had figured every 86 stator/flywheel would be the same, but nope.....

I had screwed it all up by using a different flywheel because I had lightened the original on my lathe. Never ever have I seen that happen before and John was a witness :lol:

[oscarmayer]

Well, I spoke with my brother today who is the previous owner of this particular engine and asked if he ever needed to drill and tap the mount bolt holes to the next size up and he said he did not. But he did say he thought the hardware (3 large zinc plated machine screws) was a bit odd when he had to replace the stator and flywheel when he owned it due to a flywheel failure.

I'm thinking someone did the drill and re-tap at some point over the years.

Anyway, I got it out and rode it for about 20 minutes and so far no trouble. Usually the problem would manifest in less than 20 minutes of ride time. It's looking like the stator and pulse generator swap might have cured it, but I won't be sure till I get more ride time on it.

Will post an update when get a chance to take it out again.

Ya know what guys, a little food for thought that just struck me out of nowhere: At one time I owned a '98 Arctic Cat ZR600 EFI. These sleds were notorious for stator failures. And As I sit here hashing this over in my mind, I remember when the stator went out on that sled. It acted exactly the same way this R is/was acting. It would idle, somewhat, but would not take throttle for beans. Shut it down and let it sit a few minutes and you could ride a few minutes again and the cycle would repeat.

Jesse: I'd love to do a CR swap on both of my R's at some point.... All in due time. :beer

Awesome news! Glad it is working for you! Enjoy it!!!

[RIDE-RED 250r]

Just got back from another ride on the R. So far, so good. :)