Header options on ATC 200/200x pre '86

[Dave8338]

Just wondering if anyone has any fitment knowledge on what fits what. I know that the 200x header is slightly larger id/od than the 185/200s.

Would a header from the same years XL 200 fit? Are they the same size? Any other options that you can think of. I'll be fitting a Super Trapp after the header.
Just would like to know what my options are....

Thanks


Dave

[YTZ drew]

Last year when I was building a pair of 200X's, I layed a 2000 XR200 head pipe over / next to the stock '85 200X pipe on the floor, it was the same diameter and had all the same bends, but the XR pipe was shorter by about 5 inches and was missing the very last bend right before the muffler. I'm not sure about the XL, but my '79 XR185 has basically an identical headpipe to the XR200, so I'm sure you could make something work.

[Dave8338]

Drew... thanks for the feedback.

If the XR is the same diameter as the ATC 200X, that would make a good option. As for being shorter, the muffler I'm using wasn't meant for the bike so I'll be changing things anyway. I did a little forum searching and at some point, a TRX 450 was used. I understand the bends are a little different, size is larger, so IF I'm left with going stock or going home, I'll head home and make something work. Was hoping for an easier option but easy is boring, I suppose.

Thanks again,

Dave

[YTZ drew]

Glad to be of assistance! That XR200 headpipe will actually be making its way onto my current 200X build. Its what I have, so I'm using it.

[Dave8338]

10:25 Forged Wiseco, and my Lisle hone, arrived this morning. Need to hone from 65.25mm to 65.5mm for the new piston. Jug has already been machined to 65.25mm so I know the bore is round and straight. Also picked up a pencil style Mini die grinder for polishing the inside of all the tight spots. Should work out well.

And for the header, I'll be starting with a 2006 TRX 450R pipe (on the way) that will need a little massaging to make it all fit together.

[Dave8338]

I must say, the Wiseco piston is very well refined. Nice piece. I was expecting to have to contour a few of the sharp valve recess edges. NOPE, the boys building it already did that. Flawless finish to the piston top, as well. May hone/fit the piston tomorrow if time permits. Either that, or slap the new sprockets on the beast for one last ride before going back under the knife.

[Dave8338]

This is what the new header will be bolting up to:

http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh267/dave8338/DSCN3770_zps75851a07.jpg (http://s258.photobucket.com/user/dave8338/media/DSCN3770_zps75851a07.jpg.html)

[YTZ drew]

What's that carb you are using, and do I spy an accelerator pump, or is that an automatic choke pulloff?

[Dave8338]

It is a 30mm Keihin and yes, there is an accelerator pump for the quick throttle stabs, when they happen. ;)

[Scootertrash]

What intake manifold/insulator is that? where can they be found? I want a couple!

ETA: What cam are you running?

[Dave8338]

Good morning. Up early, I see! :cool:

The intake was purchased several years ago from a vendor of race cart products, off the internet. I don't have the vendors info on me but I typically keep ALL of the products, their spec sheets etc. in a three ring binder, for each project. I'll have to look when I get home. The cam is a .380/.380 lift and a 280/280 duration. If you check Web cams, they have a nearly identical cam, only the lift on theirs is .375/.375 with a 380/380 duration. They do make one with something like 390~ lift and 290 duration HOWEVER... I'm somewhat suspicious of valve clearance issues with their cam, when running thinner base and head gaskets and don't want too much overlap in the valve timing as things get real tricky in the exhaust department, with that set up. Also, this engine will be going in my little "pet" trike and I want it ride-able in nearly all situations. Also why compression was left at 10.25:1. I have no desire to chase down race fuel anymore. Getting too old for that game. 92 octane with a little "juice spike", will be more than enough.

Can't let all the kittens out of the bag, just yet... :beer

[Scootertrash]

Good morning to you also ;)
Heh, been up for a couple hours :P

Thanks for the info. Anything you can find on the intake would be awesome!

Your specs sound like a build I'm looking at doing, same scenario: pet trike that's extremely reliable.

I'm quite sure I don't have to ask you to update this thread or post a build thread ;)

[Dave8338]

Did some digging on Sunday, looking for the manufacturer of the intake and when it was purchased. As of yet, I'm coming up blank. I have one drawer in my tool chest that I've got some paperwork in, and haven't checked there, yet. Now it is starting to bug me. I don't typically lose things like that ! :(

[oscarmayer]

Of all the pipes I have ran across the nicest and best power producer was the bassoni. Hey are rear and hard to find but if you can get one your golden. Next up is the super trap stuff.

Outside of that, they are the same except the DG stuff is Chinese junk.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Scootertrash]

Did some digging on Sunday, looking for the manufacturer of the intake and when it was purchased. As of yet, I'm coming up blank. I have one drawer in my tool chest that I've got some paperwork in, and haven't checked there, yet. Now it is starting to bug me. I don't typically lose things like that ! :(

I've tried some googling, but haven't really come up with one that looks like yours. Yours looks a little longer than stock. Will you be able to use the stock airbox or are you gonna run an open filter?

[yaegerb]

This is what the new header will be bolting up to:

http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh267/dave8338/DSCN3770_zps75851a07.jpg (http://s258.photobucket.com/user/dave8338/media/DSCN3770_zps75851a07.jpg.html)

Out of curiosity, why a 30MM? I would think with the mods you are doing a 28 or even fat jetted 26 would get you there.

[Dave8338]

Of all the pipes I have ran across the nicest and best power producer was the bassoni. Hey are rear and hard to find but if you can get one your golden. Next up is the super trap stuff.

Outside of that, they are the same except the DG stuff is Chinese junk.

I've looked for a few years for a good Bassani and all I could turn up were well rusted, pitted pieces of junk. DG... out of the question.


I've tried some googling, but haven't really come up with one that looks like yours. Yours looks a little longer than stock. Will you be able to use the stock airbox or are you gonna run an open filter?

It is quite a bit longer than the stock 200X intake and the angles are different. I had to notch and invert fill the backbone just to get the carb to clear and have room to run the Y-splitter cable. Also, the stock upper shock mount on the 200x frame was in the way, so I made a bit of a change there, too. It won't accommodate the stock air box unless it could be relocated.

Here was my solution:
http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh267/dave8338/0407131738_zps9b64f842.jpg (http://s258.photobucket.com/user/dave8338/media/0407131738_zps9b64f842.jpg.html)

http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh267/dave8338/0401132016a_zpsbfc7586f.jpg (http://s258.photobucket.com/user/dave8338/media/0401132016a_zpsbfc7586f.jpg.html)

[Dave8338]

Out of curiosity, why a 30MM? I would think with the mods you are doing a 28 or even fat jetted 26 would get you there.

Couldn't find a 26-28 with the accelerator pump. Also looking to open up the top end range a bit. It won't surprise me if jetting the thing correctly, will take a while. I didn't want to lose all of the bottom end torque so a longer intake will hopefully offset that a bit. All trial and error at this point. OK... there are a few calculated changes, too. :twisted:

[ironchop]

whats the story on that modded frame?....nevermind, I had missed where you said you modded to clear the new carb setup


AND......what header do you need? ATC200 or 200X......reason I ask is because I think I have a spare header with no muffler for a cobra setup on a 200S. I`ll have to look again to be sure I didn`t sell it and forget.

[Dave8338]

I've decided to go the route of reworking a TRX stainless header, based on tube sizing. If you do have the Cobra header, what size ID is it?

There was more to it than just the carb setup, for hacking this thing apart and making changes. I did that part of the work a couple years ago.

This was the other reason:
http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh267/dave8338/0427130859_zpsd1b7148f.jpg (http://s258.photobucket.com/user/dave8338/media/0427130859_zpsd1b7148f.jpg.html)

[ironchop]

I`ll check the shop and see and get back to you.

Do you have a thread for that mod above? Because this is precisely what I was mulling over to do to my 200X as I would rather have the progressive linkage swinger setup in the rear rather than stock X swinger as well.

[Dave8338]

I`ll check the shop and see and get back to you.

Do you have a thread for that mod above? Because this is precisely what I was mulling over to do to my 200X as I would rather have the progressive linkage swinger setup in the rear rather than stock X swinger as well.

Here is about as close to a build thread, as I got with it. Not jammed full of all the little details but enough there to get an idea of what goes into it.
http://www.3wheelerworld.com/showthread.php/154996-New-to-the-fourm?highlight=new+to+the+fourm

I too, didn't like the "pogo" ride of the original 200x bikes. Once you've ridden a 250R (or any bike with the progressive suspension, for that matter) the rest fall a bit short, for someone with a bad back. ;)

[ironchop]

I too, didn't like the "pogo" ride of the original 200x bikes. Once you've ridden a 250R (or any bike with the progressive suspension, for that matter) the rest fall a bit short, for someone with a bad back. ;)

Thanks Dave.....yeah, I love my little X after some topend work and a Megacycles setup made a major difference in power but @ 240lbs, I`ve pushed the suspension way beyond its design capabilities. I got an A2 on the bench to build but I would still like to keep my X.....one time a hard run at the tabletop @ TF and my overzealous self nearly snapped the frame when I landed so something needs to be done with the chassis....I`ve had several Pro Link Hondas and they were very supple to land compared to the X

[Dave8338]

Thanks Dave.....yeah, I love my little X after some topend work and a Megacycles setup made a major difference in power but @ 240lbs, I`ve pushed the suspension way beyond its design capabilities. I got an A2 on the bench to build but I would still like to keep my X.....one time a hard run at the tabletop @ TF and my overzealous self nearly snapped the frame when I landed so something needs to be done with the chassis....I`ve had several Pro Link Hondas and they were very supple to land compared to the X

AWESOME ! ! ! Wish I had been there to see it ! :beer Trixy rides VERY smooth. Flat, too. Loves to sit in the middle of a gravel road throw stones. :naughty:



Thought I would give a few here, an insight as to what lies beneath the eventual shiny skirt....

Dug this O'le thang out of the cupboard:

http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh267/dave8338/DSCN3786_zps4a83c78c.jpg (http://s258.photobucket.com/user/dave8338/media/DSCN3786_zps4a83c78c.jpg.html)

[oscarmayer]

just remember, the bigger the pipe does not always = more HP. these smaller motors need "some" back pressure to produce decent power and torque. if you take that way you will definatly hurt performance. I recommend never goign more than 1/4-1/2" larger than stock. i think stock is 5/8" so a 3/4 t max of 1" is all i would go to. double check that stock size to be certain.

1/4" larger than stock if mods but no stroke, 1/2" larger if stroked. that is all i would ever do in sizes larger than stock. this ensures you get max everything.

[Dave8338]

just remember, the bigger the pipe does not always = more HP. these smaller motors need "some" back pressure to produce decent power and torque. if you take that way you will definatly hurt performance. I recommend never goign more than 1/4-1/2" larger than stock. i think stock is 5/8" so a 3/4 t max of 1" is all i would go to. double check that stock size to be certain.

1/4" larger than stock if mods but no stroke, 1/2" larger if stroked. that is all i would ever do in sizes larger than stock. this ensures you get max everything.

Good solid advice ! I'm going to be able to tune for back pressure, by adding or removing discs from the Super Trapp. Hoping that I can come up with a combo that not only breaths well, but isn't too loud. Loud is for young'Ns !

[Dave8338]

Spent a little time this morning, cleaning up the last of the port work on the head. Tight little spaces to work around and the palm of my hand, is about the size, of the head. The pencil/ mini die works well. Takes time and it sounds like sitting in the dentist's chair for a few hours at a time, , , listening to the drill.

[Dave8338]

Spent a little more time in the shop tonight on the cylinder head. Ported and about half done with the finer details. Valve guides and clean up of the exhaust side, are still to be done.

Intake side, ready for action:
http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh267/dave8338/DSCN3809_zps29d0df89.jpg (http://s258.photobucket.com/user/dave8338/media/DSCN3809_zps29d0df89.jpg.html)

Exhaust side needing another hour or two of attention:
http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh267/dave8338/DSCN3815_zps037ac38c.jpg (http://s258.photobucket.com/user/dave8338/media/DSCN3815_zps037ac38c.jpg.html)

And one of the hemi head:
http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh267/dave8338/DSCN3817_zpsffcb8061.jpg (http://s258.photobucket.com/user/dave8338/media/DSCN3817_zpsffcb8061.jpg.html)

Still a few hours left getting things as I want them but for now, progress has been made. Futile effort in an attempt to get the pre '86 head to breathe.... time will tell. A 185 only had two valves, after all............. :beer

[Dave8338]

More time on the exhaust port yesterday afternoon, before the game. Had to pick up a few more dremel bits that were small enough to fit in and around the valve guide area, without hogging out too much material on the outer radius. I though my selection of 1/8 die grinder bits was fairly healthy. To date, I added 10 additional bits to the mix. Not used to working on ports this small. Next to NO room and even with the seats taped up and being extremely careful not to under cut them too much, it is tight, tight, tight!

Should have the exhaust port finished or close to it, by tonight...

[oscarmayer]

remember be very careful where you are taking material from. too big and it will loose power. the reason is port volocity.
You have to maintain that through the whole process or you cause a backpressure build up and that slows the machien down making it run like doo-dee.
This is why we have always said you must have a flow bench to port a head properly or you may just be causing a problem. That being said, you could have just port mathced the ports 1" into the port chamber and do some very slight smoothing and that woudl have been ok. right now, you have modified ti so much, that it is hard to tell if it will have a problem. I am concerned about the pre-seat chamber sizing. it seems to be a big cavern now and a place where you could end up with back pressure buildup rather than flow, but you will have to chekc it out to see. these smaller CC motors like small ports and they live the ports not to change much exept into a very slight conish style shape. having weird buldges always has caused problems on the heds I worked with. If I find a pre-ported head, I alwyas have to flowed before I used to to see if it was done right or just hogged out. These small CC motors do not do well with "hogging" style at all.

anyway, good luck and I hope t turns out good. (sorry i am not trying to be a debbie downer on ya, only trying to give you honest info)

[Dave8338]

I sure appreciate the feedback ! Thanks.

I too, don't want to get things too large. It may be hard to tell from the pics so I'll explain how and what was done:
I've blended/port matched the intake side to 30mm (same as the intake and carb) and sloped the pocket to create a smoother transition below the seat. Stock, the pockets nearly make a 90 degree bend and have very little taper from the bottom of the valve seat all the way out the port. This I've certainly changed. Also, with this change, the reduction in diameter from 30mm down to ~ 26mm at the intake valve seat, I suspect that the charge velocity will increase going through the seat/valve.

On the exhaust side, things are very similar with gradual sloping of the pocket near the valve guide and an increasing taper out to the copper o-ring. In both cases, I reduced the size of the valve guide bridge a bit, hoping to gain a bit more capacity on the higher RPM spectrum.

Time will tell. If it runs like crap, is doggy on the bottom end and won't pull itself around in first gear, I still have a couple more heads that could be bolted on.

[Dave8338]

Found a web picture that better illustrates what I've done. One on the left is nearly identical to what I have going.

http://www.topplocksverkstan.se/bilder/4-takt/fiddy16.jpg

[oscarmayer]

OMG!! PRON!!!!! :-) Good stuff man!!!
that's cool. if your folloqing that, you shoudl be in "ok" shape. One one fo the "test" heads we fill welded in on upper part of the curve to the seat and gave it mroe of a 40* hit than the normal 80* (more curved and less angle and it also allowed for smoother flow). we have not flowed it yet, but prelim tests show promising.

[Dave8338]

My little Nikon camera just won't do the macro photos. This is about as good as I can get, attempting to show the texture to both ports. You're going to have to trust me, on the shape... Sorry for the poor photos. :(

http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh267/dave8338/DSCN3835_zps2a9185de.jpg (http://s258.photobucket.com/user/dave8338/media/DSCN3835_zps2a9185de.jpg.html)



OMG!! PRON!!!!! :-) Good stuff man!!!
that's cool. if your folloqing that, you shoudl be in "ok" shape. One one fo the "test" heads we fill welded in on upper part of the curve to the seat and gave it mroe of a 40* hit than the normal 80* (more curved and less angle and it also allowed for smoother flow). we have not flowed it yet, but prelim tests show promising.

I THOUGHT about the welding but decided against it as I have NO/know idea, on how to weld aluminum! Thought I would go a little 'Ole school, on them... as with most things, time will tell.:crazy:

[oscarmayer]

LOL good luck sir! O7

[Scootertrash]

Dave,
What tool are you using to do the material removal?

[Dave8338]

LOL good luck sir! O7

There is a good chance, that I'll need it. Thanks. ;)


Dave,
What tool are you using to do the material removal?

The initial work was done with my die grinder and 4" extension bit(s).
I bought a micro die grinder that spins at 50,000+ rpm and a BUNCH of 1/8" bits, sanding rolls, etc.
The micro allowed me to get in and around the valve pockets and guides, blend things a little better, and final texture the intake side with 80 grit rolls and patience... I may hit the exhaust side one more time with the micro and buffing tips. :crazy:

[Scootertrash]

Any particular brand of die grinder(s) and bits? Electric or pneumatic? I've had die grinders/bits on my tool list for awhile, a dremel just doesn't cut it *cough* :P

[Dave8338]

Any particular brand of die grinder(s) and bits? Electric or pneumatic? I've had die grinders/bits on my tool list for awhile, a dremel just doesn't cut it *cough* :P

Nice ! ! :D

My die grinder is an Ingersoll Rand that I have had for 10+years. Done it's fair share of head work. The micro die grinder is a cheap Harbor Freight unit that I bought thinking, "if it makes it through this head, I'll consider it a win" and so far, it has worked better than I expected. It will go into the drawer with the rest of the air tools. OH... pneumatic. The electric dremel tools, don't spin fast enough to do a good job, IMHO.

[ironchop]

Ok Dave, here are those measurements.

DG Header: 1.374 OD
1.270 ID

SuperTrapp: 1.365 OD
1.232 ID

[Dave8338]

THANK YOU... THANK YOU... THANK YOU !

I now have a good comparison to the TRX pipe and it will definitely help me in getting this thing jetted in. Now to get home and measure up the TRX pipe. :beer

[Scootertrash]

Nice ! ! :D

My die grinder is an Ingersoll Rand that I have had for 10+years. Done it's fair share of head work. The micro die grinder is a cheap Harbor Freight unit that I bought thinking, "if it makes it through this head, I'll consider it a win" and so far, it has worked better than I expected. It will go into the drawer with the rest of the air tools. OH... pneumatic. The electric dremel tools, don't spin fast enough to do a good job, IMHO.

Thanks Dave!

[Dave8338]

Some better photos of the head. At least this gives an idea...

INTAKE: finished with #80 on 3/8" drums
http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh267/dave8338/DSCN3846_zps23233bad.jpg (http://s258.photobucket.com/user/dave8338/media/DSCN3846_zps23233bad.jpg.html)

EXHAUST: too much of a good thing
http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh267/dave8338/DSCN3844_zps18ef0cc1.jpg (http://s258.photobucket.com/user/dave8338/media/DSCN3844_zps18ef0cc1.jpg.html)

AND THE POCKETS: good enough
http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh267/dave8338/DSCN3847_zps753d2ef9.jpg (http://s258.photobucket.com/user/dave8338/media/DSCN3847_zps753d2ef9.jpg.html)

Now I can peel out the copper O-ring and get some guides in place...

[Dave8338]

Ok Dave, here are those measurements.

DG Header: 1.374 OD
1.270 ID

SuperTrapp: 1.365 OD
1.232 ID

I'm getting 38mm OD and 36.~5mm ID. ( 1.49 OD and 1.43OD )

Thanks, again

Dave

[Scootertrash]

Where did you find the extensions for the die grinder(s)? are they 1/8 or 1/4 extensions? Found the micro grinder at HF but I'm having trouble locating extensions.

[oscarmayer]

so DG is just over 1 and a 1/4" while supertrap is just under. sounds about right. so unless your stroking the motor i would definatly not touch the 1.5" range. i would aim for 1.25" as a goal for sizing agian unless stroking.

[Dave8338]

Where did you find the extensions for the die grinder(s)? are they 1/8 or 1/4 extensions? Found the micro grinder at HF but I'm having trouble locating extensions.

I maybe misspoke when using the word "extension". The bits themselves have a ~2" longer shank on them, vs. the shorties. As for where I get them..... I know some have come from Sears, some from Northern tool, etc. Basically, when I need a different bit, I go get it.

[Dave8338]

so DG is just over 1 and a 1/4" while supertrap is just under. sounds about right. so unless your stroking the motor i would definatly not touch the 1.5" range. i would aim for 1.25" as a goal for sizing agian unless stroking.

Yeah... wondering about that. May have to rethink the header a bit. Not going to be a stroker, that's for sure. Thanks for the verification.
Decisions, decisions, decisions.....

I'm going to look at an extra set of pipes that I have for one of my bikes. They are a tube within a tube. See what size the inner tubing actually is. Displacement on that one is 850cc.

[Dave8338]

Go BIG, or go home ! ! ! ! ! :shiftyeyes:

I've decided to go with the TRX pipe. I'll have to tighten a few bends, cut it in one place and rotate it 180 degrees, re-weld, and that is just the head pipe.

I've done a LOT of thinking on this: Since I have the ability to regulate the back pressure using the Super Trapp setup, the only other variable would be to tune the exhaust for a specific resonance.
For example: depending on the RPM, head port shape, exit diameter of the port, pipe sizing after said port, and speed of the negative pressure wave that follows the initial exhaust pulse.........and cam timing; (do you see why I'm just going to go for it) ?

I am convinced that I have nothing to gain, by keeping the header pipe sizing to what other aftermarket companies determined to be "optimal". That specific size may have more to do with getting it to clear the down tube, than it does a "best size" for said engine.

Just a thought.

I have used their mufflers in the past, for the very reason that the exhaust back pressure, can be regulated/tuned. More disks= less back pressure. Fewer disks= more back pressure. Tuning for an exact RPM based on pipe sizing , on this project, ain't going to happen.....

Stay tuned... nut on the loose.................................... :crazy:

[Dave8338]

Since I've committed myself (some would argue that I've missed the turn into the sanitarium...) to the TRX pipe, I would like to shed a bit more detail as to why. After measuring three of the 4-stroke, two valve bikes that I have, I found this to be the case: All had larger exhaust pipe ID's than they did exhaust valve size. And all had a graduating exhaust pipe diameter from point of entry, to point of exit. There must be a reason.... In addition, ALL put more power to the ground on a CC to HP basis. From this, along with the carb sizing (two of the three have 32mm CV carbs with one being fewer cc's per cylinder and one being just over (212 cc's)), it is my thought that I must be somewhere in the middle of all of this. Time will tell...

Here is the TRX pipe, just prior to the mini-die attack:
http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh267/dave8338/DSCN3848_zpsbe73ee8b.jpg (http://s258.photobucket.com/user/dave8338/media/DSCN3848_zpsbe73ee8b.jpg.html)

Here is the other reason for this specific combo:
http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh267/dave8338/DSCN3855_zpsa586e40c.jpg (http://s258.photobucket.com/user/dave8338/media/DSCN3855_zpsa586e40c.jpg.html)

The TRX header is exactly the OD size that I need to combine with the Super Trapp... :cool:

There really is a method to my madness......................

[Dave8338]

Took the time to swap out the front sprocket (Sun-Star #12) and was running out of daylight. No room, or time to make room, for climate control.
Thought I would show what almost 2-years of abuse and nary a shower, looks like:

http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh267/dave8338/DSCN3860_zps61490156.jpg (http://s258.photobucket.com/user/dave8338/media/DSCN3860_zps61490156.jpg.html)

http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh267/dave8338/DSCN3861_zps0c36fd05.jpg (http://s258.photobucket.com/user/dave8338/media/DSCN3861_zps0c36fd05.jpg.html)

She threw her necklace at me last summer as a result of another idler failure. This IS changing. Still not convinced that I have enough height with the sprocket change, but in worse case scenario... the angle will improve = less force on the bearings...

Sprocket size, sorted out in this thread:
http://www.3wheelerworld.com/showthread.php/171717-1986-250R-rear-sprocket-tooth-count-(quick-question)



Now, to have a friend machine me a stainless "bushing" for the header/port connection. :wondering ;)

[Dave8338]

A real live Powroll set up ! ;) Mickey... couldn't help but notice the similarities between the logo, and my little project. :cool:+

http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh267/dave8338/Feb2015_zps30689dd5.jpg (http://s258.photobucket.com/user/dave8338/media/Feb2015_zps30689dd5.jpg.html)

http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh267/dave8338/DSCN3940_zps537b28bd.jpg (http://s258.photobucket.com/user/dave8338/media/DSCN3940_zps537b28bd.jpg.html)

Looking forward to getting this thing together. New paint scheme is already in order. Silver frame..........

[Dave8338]

Couldn't help myself ! I have a new cylinder on the way... :naughty:

Wanted a bit of a different "look".

I'll have enough extra new parts to build a complete spare, minus the lower cases. Getting ready to pull the old 185 and tear it down. Time for some clean, assembly fun. :D

[thcowboy]

Gonna be auto x then? 1985 motor im guessing?

[Dave8338]

Gonna be auto x then? 1985 motor im guessing?


Auto X for certain. :beer

As for the engine, the cases are from my 1982 185 (the engine in the bike above). The jug (supposed to be in the mail) is/will be new aftermarket, sourced for one... on two-wheels...
The head and and rocker box are from a 1984 200M if I remember correctly.
Other than the trans gears/and a re-rod'ed crank, the rest of the rotating mass is a combo of parts I've collected over the years. Some have been made to my liking. ;)

[Dave8338]

Didn't put two and two together until this morning. Bruce (Blue27) will have some of his handy work, on this project. Bought a recoil decal on Evilbay yesterday and it turns out that it is from Blue Line Graphics. Thanks, Bruce ! :D

Side note/question: Does anybody have the bolt hole spacing distance for the parking brake block off plate for a TRX / 250R / ?? Would like to source an existing piece as opposed to spending time making my own. It will not be used for the rear caliper... another application. Thanks. :crazy:

[Dave8338]

New cylinder arrived today. :w00t: Will bring a bit of a change to things and allow for even more change if/when I want to.

No replacement for displacement, as the old saying goes... ;)

If anybody knows the distance, center to center, of the bolt holes for the rear brake block off plate on a 250R, that would be helpful.

Thanks

[Bren_downe]

Most if not all block off plates are interchangable. I have a 400ex plate on my 82R. Not sure if the later liquid cooled R's are different.

[Dave8338]

Most if not all block off plates are interchangable. I have a 400ex plate on my 82R. Not sure if the later liquid cooled R's are different.

Sure appears that way. The 400EX block off plate is the same as the earlier 250R from what I've been reading. I need to know the bolt hole spacing. Will be using the block off plate in a different application. Spacing needs to be ~41mm center to center, for it to work.
I'll have to dig around and see what I can come up with.

Thanks for the feed back. Much appreciated.

Dave

[Dave8338]

Well at this point, I'm working with two different cylinder heights and three wrist pin locations. Rod lengths and cranks are stock.

Should make for an interesting assembly process. From initial measurements, I "should" be able to get away with a mix and match set up that allows for a couple different compression ratios, without too much difficulty. Gasket thickness and planing will hopefully fine tune the system. That however, remains to be seen...
Vernier sprocket on the way to aid the cam timing. I'm still a bit leery on the valve clearance. All of it, will go together and apart at least a dozen times, before it is ready to run.

Still looking for a measurement on the block of plate. Buler... McFly... does anybod out there, have a few seconds and a tape or caliper, to grab that measurement for me? Please... rtfm

A couple of the new union. We gained a bit, with this set up.

http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh267/dave8338/DSCN3995_zpsfj8mq65y.jpg (http://s258.photobucket.com/user/dave8338/media/DSCN3995_zpsfj8mq65y.jpg.html)

http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh267/dave8338/DSCN3996_zpsxky7cpwt.jpg (http://s258.photobucket.com/user/dave8338/media/DSCN3996_zpsxky7cpwt.jpg.html)

http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh267/dave8338/DSCN3998_zps8jqn2tll.jpg (http://s258.photobucket.com/user/dave8338/media/DSCN3998_zps8jqn2tll.jpg.html)

[YTZ drew]

Will be using the block off plate in a different application.
If I was a betting man, I'd bet you're blocking off a cam chain tensioner hole in a 230 cylinder...

[Dave8338]

If I was a betting man, I'd bet you're blocking off a cam chain tensioner hole in a 230 cylinder...

Are you planning a trip to Atlantic City, any time soon ? :D

[Dave8338]

Someone has been sleeping in MY bed...

http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh267/dave8338/DSCN4000_zpscav9wpig.jpg (http://s258.photobucket.com/user/dave8338/media/DSCN4000_zpscav9wpig.jpg.html)

AND:

http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh267/dave8338/DSCN4002_zpswjb5aioj.jpg (http://s258.photobucket.com/user/dave8338/media/DSCN4002_zpswjb5aioj.jpg.html)

http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh267/dave8338/DSCN4001_zpsf6enpeer.jpg (http://s258.photobucket.com/user/dave8338/media/DSCN4001_zpsf6enpeer.jpg.html)


Now it gets interesting...

[Dave8338]

So... after tearing into the little beast last night, it is obvious that someone has been there before me. Not surprised on a 30+ year old machine. Expected, actually. What I didn't expect to find were the spring tops. I haven't put the compressor to them yet but they sure appear to be titanium. Couldn't even make a mark with the hardness file.
Will have to gauge the springs too. Valve guides are shiny silver and not the bronze that I expected.

Also, the piston is obviously domed and fly cut. Has HON DA written just like that, with the wrist pin in the middle. It's a 65mm piston and has a part number of 446 cast into one side. Any thoughts ? The other thing that surprised me is the cam profile. I'll have to dig into that a little further and see what gives...

I have a call into a respected machine shop that specializes in cranks and stroking on everything from marine use to modified garden tractor pulling engines, race bikes etc. Hope to hear back from them soon to see if they want any part of a ~8.4mm increase to the stock crank.

Now time to clean everything up and start mixing and matching parts to see what I can come up with.

[Dave8338]

OK... I have a solid quote from Crank Works out of AZ http://www.crankworks.com/ for $535.00 for the stroke, plus the shipping. I really want these guys to do the work BUT, I have one more shop in Northern MN, that I have to contact and see if they are interested. They are located 30 miles from where I grew up and if I know the boys from the "swamp", the'll crack the nut.

Question: Has anybody ever run a stroke where the piston clears the jug by ~1-1.5mm... just above the ring lands and 1/2 way into the head gasket? I know it sounds CRAZY, but I have a thought. :crazy:

Also, as the crank work will take a month or more to get back, I may slap the original bottom end back together, along with a few new parts on the top that won't be used on the final project, and test out my new sprocket height. In final measure up, I'm still just shy of clearing the front swinger pivot and would like to throw a load at it and see how the new drive angle beats up on a relocated idler.

More to come...

[Dave8338]

Port matched the intake to the head last night. Contours worked out very nicely and just had to blend the bottom left side of the intake tube, to the head and do an #80 grit finish to the inside. Tonight, I hope to have the exterior of the new intake, polished to a mirror finish. Time will tell...

[Dave8338]

Received a few more parts in the mail. :cool:

The CRF 230 guides and tensioner arrived and I couldn't wait to see how things fit. The new tensioner "bands" will work. I will need to make a piece to secure the bottom end of the front band, from the looks of it.

Thought I would throw up a pic of the jug and freshly ported and exterior polished intake combo, sitting on its' new home.

http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh267/dave8338/Honda%20230%201_zpsn5pcsfhn.jpg (http://s258.photobucket.com/user/dave8338/media/Honda%20230%201_zpsn5pcsfhn.jpg.html)

MANY hours left on the test assembly and hand spun rotation BUT... at this point, I'm confidant that it will work.

Final compression will be in the 11.5:1 range with exception allowed for chosen gasket(s) material.

[oscarmayer]

nice web springs and retainers. I think that's a web cam as well. piston looks to be a wiseco of early design. a 10.25:1 comp model (if not wiseco a nice copy of one).

[Dave8338]

nice web springs and retainers. I think that's a web cam as well. piston looks to be a wiseco of early design. a 10.25:1 comp model (if not wiseco a nice copy of one).

I would agree. The "original" 185 cam, sure has the profile and fits the bill of a 375/375 - 280/280 Web cam as I have one of those from an Ebay score from a few years back. The piston looks like the current Wiseco 10.25:1 that I will be using in the final build. The tops are dished out, which adds more pre-load to the springs and should increase the close speed though that is speculation on my part. The springs are stiffer to compress, as well. Strange little bag of parts...

Now to tear the rest of the thing apart and send of my crank, piston, and rod. I'll pull the engine out of my 200 and run that in the project trike until the crank gets safely back home.

[oscarmayer]

Sounds sweet and like a fun build.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Jmoozy27]

Any update on this build?

[Jmoozy27]

Has anyone heard from him? I really liked the way this build was shaping up.

[DohcBikes]

Emailed him. Would like to know as well.