85 250r clutch help please!!!!

[rouseanator]

A little history, got this in a trade and all in pieces. So have everything hooked up needed for it to run, and it starts and Idles well (but it smokes some). It makes this chattering noise constantly, also the clutch was hard to pull so replaced the cable and now it is very very easy to pull. So there is no chain hooked up to the sprocket on the motor, when the motor is OFF it seems to go into neutral and can spin the sprocket in either direction by hand, then shift into first then try to spin and it spins a little bit then comes to a stop. When the ATC is running the sprocket is always turning even when in neutral, tried to touch the sprocket lightly with a screw driver and it keeps going so thinking maybe the clutch??? the only thing the guy told me when I got it was, that the common kick start problem were you put a spring on there to take some of the slop out of it, and I would replace the clutch too while you pull off the cover off. the kick start isn't to bad that I have noticed. And supposedly who he got it from they said that it ran well that only pulled it out to powder coat the cases and then lost interest.

[rouseanator]

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1067623583265195
Here is a video of it running.

[rouseanator]

Also preference on clutch parts. I've read some on it and it sounds like hinson baskets are awesome but what parts are best with them, stock or aftermarket, what brands yield the best results.

[RoscoW]

I think all your noticing is the oil drag in the transmission turning the output shaft. every motor will spin the output in neutral without the chain on. It's just the clutch and input shaft with the gears spinning the oil and that transfers to the output shaft and sprocket. Put a chain on and give it another try, if your clutch is jumpy and not smooth you may have a basket that has grooves worn in it at the clutch plate fingers. A worn or slipping clutch will show up as slippage in the higher gears, motor revving up and no noticeable increase in speed.

Ross..

[rouseanator]

RoscoW ....I went and started it rite now and put my boot on the bolt on the sprocket and applied pressure and it did stop the sprocket from turning, and the motor continued to run well when it stopped so thank you very much don't have to worry about that anymore!!!!! Marty on here said the noise is possibly clutch chatter so hopefully I replace some clutch parts and it will get better. Any suggestions on what parts to go with?

[El Camexican]

Chatter does not occur at idle. If your clutch is making noise in neutral it might be due to a loose backing plate (it's riveted to the back of the clutch hub and has springs in it to absorb shock). Based on what appears to be your experience with engines it may be that you are concerned with nothing more than the sound that straight cut gears make. I'd get it put together and see if the noise diminishes when in gear before tearing it apart.

[rouseanator]

El camexican.... I pretty sure that the clutch doent work on it. I have owned and rode a lot of machines with clutchs and know how they feel and this one isn't even close, its very very easy to pull. Also can't hook up the chain cause it needs to have the rear carrier bearings done first, dont know what parts to get as I was told it was a trx swingarm on it so I need to diseaseble and make sure I don't order the wrong parts.

[RoscoW]

250R's produce a lot of noise from the counter balancer that sounds like rattling. These are older engines and the straight cut gears that drive the balancer will develop some increased backlash over the years. If the noise doesn't change with pressure on the clutch lever I would suspect the balancer is the sound you are hearing. they can be rebuilt with new bearings but the gears are discontinued.

Ross..

[jakep53]

Is it more of a knock than a chatter and does it still do it when reved up?

[Mosh]

I never start a machine without a chain on it. Especially for the first time or something I have no clue on it's history...that engine takes off into a hi rev due to poor cable or carb condition you almost have no way to kill the engine by pounding it in gear and holding the brakes to shut it down.

[El Camexican]

El camexican.... I pretty sure that the clutch doent work on it. I have owned and rode a lot of machines with clutchs and know how they feel and this one isn't even close, its very very easy to pull. Also can't hook up the chain cause it needs to have the rear carrier bearings done first, dont know what parts to get as I was told it was a trx swingarm on it so I need to diseaseble and make sure I don't order the wrong parts.

If by a lot of machines you mean street bikes with cable clutches then a 250R clutch would feel very easy to pull in comparison. Pull the cover and look at it to make sure it has all the plates and that the springs are within spec., but as suggested, put it together before running it any more.

[Stingray]

that the common kick start problem were you put a spring on there to take some of the slop out of it,

rouse,
I would check if there is an extra spring on the kicker shaft behind the big gear. Could be the source of the chatter.

[rouseanator]

I never start a machine without a chain on it. Especially for the first time or something I have no clue on it's history...that engine takes off into a hi rev due to poor cable or carb condition you almost have no way to kill the engine by pounding it in gear and holding the brakes to shut it down.

I did that already and it ended up being the reed gaskets were leaking causing the high rev, but know it ides real good. It was scary I hit the off switch still running, pulled off the plug wire still running, hit the gas died.

[rouseanator]

Is it more of a knock than a chatter and does it still do it when reved up?

It seems to do it all the time just cant hear it over the exhaust when reving up the motor, and seems to stay the same speed even when reving so I doubt its the piston slap cause wouldn't that make the noise get faster when reving?

[rouseanator]

If by a lot of machines you mean street bikes with cable clutches then a 250R clutch would feel very easy to pull in comparison. Pull the cover and look at it to make sure it has all the plates and that the springs are within spec., but as suggested, put it together before running it any more.

not street bikes, have rode these a lot, 85 350x, 04 400ex, 03 warrior. Only 2 stroke I have had is a blaster and it didn't make all that noise if I remember correctly. I think I will take the right cover off and check the clutch and counter balancer. By put it together first do you mean the chain and rear end first?

[rouseanator]

250R's produce a lot of noise from the counter balancer that sounds like rattling. These are older engines and the straight cut gears that drive the balancer will develop some increased backlash over the years. If the noise doesn't change with pressure on the clutch lever I would suspect the balancer is the sound you are hearing. they can be rebuilt with new bearings but the gears are discontinued.

Ross..

So I have read up some on the counter balancer and kind of understand it now, the clutch is very easy to pull and doesn't seem to do anything at all idling or revving, looks to be a common problem so will check it out and also the clutch cause I am pretty sure it isn't working. The sound seems to be constant and doesn't change in loudness or speed up with revving the motor, just kind of gets drowned out buy the exhaust noise when revving the motor.

[rouseanator]

rouse,
I would check if there is an extra spring on the kicker shaft behind the big gear. Could be the source of the chatter.
I will check that too when I pull it off.

[jakep53]

It seems to do it all the time just cant hear it over the exhaust when reving up the motor, and seems to stay the same speed even when reving so I doubt its the piston slap cause wouldn't that make the noise get faster when reving?

Both of my 82r engines have a knock but only at a very low idle so that led me to believe counterbalancer and it hasn't caused any problems so i just left it!!

[Red Rider]

I have seen the flywheel rivets work themselves loose which leads to chatter from the flywheel as well.

[82 250r]

There should be a ball at the end of the clutch rod as well...make sure it's still there.
The clutch should always have some resistance because of the springs on the basket.

[rouseanator]

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1068948856466001
So removed the right crank case cover to inspect things, the counter balancer seems fine almost no movement at all, the clutch looks pretty good also removed the clutch spring bolts and springs and pressure plate and every thing looks good to me took out the clutch lifter and NO STEEL BALL to be found, could this be why there is hardly no resistance on the clutch lever. The kick start seems to have some play in it any suggestions on that.

[rouseanator]

There should be a ball at the end of the clutch rod as well...make sure it's still there.
The clutch should always have some resistance because of the springs on the basket.
Wow pretty sure you nailed that one...... thanks. The steel ball is only 46 cents, I wander if it fell out in the engine, or maybe the last owner rebuilt the clutch and forgot it.

[rouseanator]

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the clutch discs and pads look pretty good, clutch basket I dont know what do you guys think??

[rouseanator]

Wow pretty sure you nailed that one...... thanks. The steel ball is only 46 cents, I wander if it fell out in the engine, or maybe the last owner rebuilt the clutch and forgot it.

Well crap, found the little steel ball..... it was inside the clutch lifter, had to hit it a few times to get it to come out. So back to square one.

[rouseanator]

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Here are some pics of measuring the clutch components and specs.
clutch spring: 45 mm
clutch outer guide: 27.97 mm
clutch disc: 2.85 mm

So looks like the springs are under the limit? could this cause almost no clutch resistance?
also the outer guide just just shy of spec.

[El Camexican]

Honda calls for 7 friction plates. I count 6 in your photo. Can you confirm 7? How much free play do you have in your clutch cable? You can set it pretty close without the clutch installed if you want. Just put your finger on the push rod to determine when movement starts.

[rouseanator]

Honda calls for 7 friction plates. I count 6 in your photo. Can you confirm 7? How much free play do you have in your clutch cable? You can set it pretty close without the clutch installed if you want. Just put your finger on the push rod to determine when movement starts.

Yes counted 7 clutch discs and 6 clutch plates, the cable is a new motion pro cable, when the clutch lifter and steel ball are on the end of the rod it moves out 3.90 mm, it pretty much starts moving rite away. To make it seem like the lifter lever is pulling in far enough, the 2 bolts on the cable are all the way to the right or towards the rear of the machine that's the max adjustment. the adjustment on the handle bar side is aliitle more than half way out.

[El Camexican]

Well, then it sounds like it's time for new springs.

[rdonald1979]

And take that basket out and sand the tabs with some emery cloth.

[250rRoostmaster]

Well crap, found the little steel ball..... it was inside the clutch lifter, had to hit it a few times to get it to come out. So back to square one.

You should do the 89 clutch upgrade, no more little steel ball to lose lol

[rouseanator]

Well, then it sounds like it's time for new springs.
Yup ordered new OEM springs from and new clutch outer guide from Rocky Mountain ATV last night should be here by Saturday I hope.

[rouseanator]

And take that basket out and sand the tabs with some emery cloth.

Well I bought some files to file them down flat already they really are not to bad.

[rouseanator]

You should do the 89 clutch upgrade, no more little steel ball to lose lol

Kind of pissed me of when I found it, cause I thought that was the problem, got a spare steel ball now. I am building it stock for now so I can feel what everything is like stock, then in the future will do some mods.

[Mosh]

If you are concerned with the knocking noise it could be a few things.
First off no chain on it is going to let the trans gear back clash against each other.
2nd off many 250R engines the clutch basket gets loose on the center collar or at the ring gear. Evidence of that will be a shiney ring on the kicker big idle gear. It is a indication that the basket is rattling against the gear. Installing a extra spring on the kicker gears is nothing I have ever heard of however some installed a extra washer to take up slack in the 85 spacers that usually resulted in slipping kickers which was later updated to one solid collar.

If you go with any aftermarket clutch basket, on the 85-86 engine the primary gear needs machined on the crank or you are going to have rubbing and grinding on the basket as it is thicker than stock was. You can search my posts and I have explained and documented this a few times on various engines.

Also the carrier bearings make no difference on any water cooled R quad or trike. They all took the same bearings UNLESS you have a aftermarket dual row carrier.
If you are talking abouth replacing the carrier as a whole with new bearings then yes..86 and up fit them all. 85 only fit the 85 swingarm.

Lastly as far as your wierd clutch pull and too much slack..inspect the bearings for the clutch push actuator and make sure they are not siezed blown out or loose in the case. Also inspect the clutch actuator where it contacts the pushrod and make sure it is not all ground up and material missing. I also have a post documenting what to look for there somewhere in my history.

[El Camexican]

Well I bought some files to file them down flat already they really are not to bad.

Not that this has anything to do with your noise, or clutch feel, but if you are going to file the tabs use a large (at least one inch wide) single Flat trailprotrailprotrailprotrailprotrailprotrailprotr ailpro file with a medium pattern as fine plugs up to fast. There are waxes available that will help prevent the file from getting plugged up with aluminum, use it if you can.

One face of your outer basket tabs is hammered up from acceleration, the other from deceleration. You can tell a lot about how a machine was ridden by looking at which is beaten more than the other. It is more important that you get them fairly smooth as the plate tabs on a new clutch can get hung up in the groves during acceleration and deceleration and that leads to premature warping of the steels. Unfortunately the more you open up the spaces between the tabs the harder the impacts become when you are downshifting to scrub off speed.

If your inner basket is chewed up it is more cost effective to get a new one that it is to try and file it out.

Have fun.

Edit: Forgot to mention that you have to remove an equal amount off each tab, or you'll put all the force on one tab and that would be bad.