DR vs SX

[fabiodriven]

After having my 86 ATC250SX and 85 YTM225DR for a number of years now, I've finally had the chance to get the DR to my "proving grounds" (The Hell Hole in New Hampshire). The SX has been there many times and both the DR and the SX are machines purposely made for the kind of extreme terrain The Hell Hole offers. I only weigh 145 lbs or so, so the sport/utility machines are the best choice for me. You lard arses would fare better on a Big Red which is also an excellent choice for this particular venue. The Hell Hole is located in the mountains and is full of boulder strewn trails more comparable to a creek bed than a path. It has extreme uphills and downhills, many of which are very rutted and washed out. I can't stress enough how rocky it is. It's the type of terrain where many times going slow just isn't going to work.

Basically both machines excel in different areas at their respective duties. The first thing, which is a point for the SX, is ground clearance. The DR is almost too low for The Hell Hole, almost. It wouldn't straddle a lot of the rocks and in turn took a lot of hard hits to the undercarriage. The SX might make contact with the rocks 5 times or so on a ride up there. The DR must have hit around 30 times or so.

A point for the DR, probably due to it being lower slung, is the handling feels better. My SX seems more top heavy and tipsy but has better manners on the uphills due to the engine being farther forward than the DR's. Overall the DR seems quite sure footed though.

I entered The Hell Hole under the assumption that the DR's suspension wasn't going to be up for the task. I had ridden the DR and the SX back to back at Mik6's sand bowl which is a very open area with a track on it that has a lot of whoops and a few small jumps. The SX's suspension handled that terrain no problem, but the DR was bottoming a lot and the forks seemed too small. The DR did end up doing well at The Hell Hole in the suspension department. It only bottomed once or twice which was fine.

The Yamaha seems more powerful than the Honda, but only in the high gears. I don't know but I'd guess the Yamaha has deeper gearing in the final drive. I was amazed at how the Yamaha would lug in third, fourth, and fifth. I actually didn't figure that out until later in the day. Prior to that I was downshifting a lot and winding the DR out, but once I figured out how much power it had I just press the throttle and it would just go faster, even on rough and steep uphills.

All in all, I'd ride either or. They're both very well made bikes. Now everyone hug.

[El Camexican]

Great post. I recall you weren't too fond of the 225 when you first road it and that surprised me a little, glad to see you've discovered a few good things about it. I always suspected the Yamaha made a little more power than the Honda based on recollections of contests we would have on the frozen river back in the day. The Honda was a pretty machine, but the YTM's and the DR's always pulled it in rollons and top enders.

If I'm not mistaken the engine weight being as far back as it is on the Yamaha had something to do with circumnavigating Honda design patents. Makes for great wheelies, but sucks for climbing hills and low speed turning.

You didn't mention the brakes. Which do you prefer? I'm guessing the Yamaha's are nothing to brag about, just wondering if the Honda's are better or worse?

[fabiodriven]

Funny you should ask as I realized I had forgotten to mention the brakes not long after I posted.

The SX is mechanical drum, front and rear. The DR has a mechanical drum on the front and a mechanical disk setup in the rear. The DR's brakes were very poor to the point I think something may have been wrong with them. The rear started the ride adjusted how it should be and felt OK just putting around before we left. On the way into the mountains you're not on the brakes that much as you are ascending for quite some time. Once I did apply them it was evident that they sucked, especially the rear. I thought maybe they had gotten wet or they were just cold at first. All three brake cables are new OEM and much of the hardware is new or was addressed to make things right. The mechanical caliper was greased and working correctly to the best of my knowledge. I can't remember if I put new pads and shoes on the bike when I was doing it over, but if I didn't the old parts could just be failing. I tend to think with the amount of work I was doing on the bike at the time that I would have done the brake pads and shoes. I used the brakes a few more times to warm them up, but they just got worse. I no longer suspected wet brakes and was leaning more towards faded brakes from dragging. We stopped and the brake wasn't any hotter than it should have been so that's out. Both brakes squeaked obnoxiously but I thought it was kind of funny. It would get old.

In a nutshell, the DR's brakes suck and the SX's are adequate.

[86T3]

I was going to ask about the brakes also but the Canadian ex-pat beat me to it. I had an sx and a dr and, as I had said before, I thought the dr was twice the machine the Honda was. With that said the dr forks do suck, that seemed like a common theme with all yamahas. The biggest area that I thought the dr excelled was the rear brakes. On mine I could lock them up as easy as hydraulic brakes on my Tecate, im really surprised at your assessment. If I were you I'd double check, because 204129

[El Camexican]

I have invested a fair bit of time and cash into the brakes on my YTM which I believe is nearly identical to the DR with respect to the stoppers and I am not happy.

Even when the trike was brand new the front would take a dump when wet and then squeal like a pig after it started working again. I seem to recall the only way to get rid of the squeal was to pull the shoes and scuff them with sandpaper. When all is well they do have a nice feel, but nothing like a hydraulic disc.

The rear baffles me. There is no good reason it shouldn't work well, but it doesn't. The cable adjustments are a compromise between a pedal that comes on too late, or a hand brake that is too tight to work as a parking brake. To top it off it feels like the rear cable stretches when you use it hard, but in reality its most likely soft adjuster nuts mushrooming and the funky dual cable hook/lever flexing rather than applying the force to the pads. At the end of it all I usually end up downshifting the crap out of it when I need to scrub speed off as I KNOW that works consistently.

Changing topics a little, I've always thought a chain driven YTM 200 engine in a Tri-Z frame would have made a great trail trike. If anyone's done it I'll like to see a link to the photos. I've seen the Tri-Z front ends on a DR and that looks like it would be a close second for a great trail trike.

[muthey]

I came close to that with a chain driven 200 in a 225 dr frame with a trx 250 sx rear swinger with hydralic rear brakes. When all was said and done looked like a mini Z. there are pics out there of it.

[muthey]

Here is the link to the thread. http://www.3wheelerworld.com/showthread.php/163301-my-finished-ytm-200-full-suspension

[King Trikester]

I own an 85 sx and an 84 dx, I have to say I feel that the only advantage my dx has over the honda is the rear brakes. The Yamaha also has more top end but my sx has a way more "consistent and reliable bottom end" The Yamaha's wheel base is a bit narrower making for a less stable ride, the suspension sucks compared to the honda, did I mention I'm one of the "fat arses? 240lbs. The honda seems to haul my fat arse around much better. I can hit mild jumps without bottoming the sx, where the dx bottoms out all day just trail ridding.

Don't get me wrong i like both machines but I feel the honda is a better machine and would pick to ride it over the Yamaha anyday. Just my two penny's

[200X FT]

That trike was cool Muthey. As far as the rear brakes go on the DR, is there a way to modify the aftermarket upgrade hydraulic rear brake setup for a blaster, to fit on the DR? Ive never rode Dr's or DX's, but Ive rode a few blasters and the ones that had rear brakes were barely there.

[El Camexican]

That trike was cool Muthey. As far as the rear brakes go on the DR, is there a way to modify the aftermarket upgrade hydraulic rear brake setup for a blaster, to fit on the DR? Ive never rode Dr's or DX's, but Ive rode a few blasters and the ones that had rear brakes were barely there.

You're talking major mods. It might be feasible on Muthey's creation, but Fabio's (and mine) are both fairly stock. The last thing I would ever do to my YTM is start welding parts to it.

In thinking about the rear brake I'm recalling my 1979 John Deere Trail Fire that had a brake set-up that was almost identical to the DR/YTM. It too was a POS and could hardly lock up the track unless it was spotless and the pads had recently been deglazed (the underside of an old 2 stroke sled cowl is a nasty place).

I guess it comes down to square inches of contact and force applied. A 1" wide, 5" diameter shoe/drum set up can offer close to 15 square inches of contact area. The DR/YTM has two round pads that are about 1.5" diameter each, my math sucks , but I think that works out to about 3.5" square inches of contact area with the disc.

The next restriction on the DR/YTM set up is the amount of force you can apply with a cable. If you make the throw of the brake levers (either end) long enough to exert a lot of force then the throw, or arc of the levers becomes so long your foot has to move too far down before you get brakes. Hydraulics take care of all these short comings.

Sadly it would seem that these trikes were equipped with discs as a selling feature more so than a stopping device.

[Ghostv2]

If you have ever rode a pre 2003 blaster you'll know how good the mechanical disc breaks are. Which they are barely there. I know when I ride I usually use the front drum breaks because they actually work like they should. Like other people mentioned previously, I think the main problem is the cable stretching and it being a pain in the nuts and bolts to adjust properly for both the hand and foot lever to work.

As for the wheelbase being shorter, I check eBay every day for some rare goodies like these puppies. OEM bolt pattern, still don't know which company put them out, if anyone knows let me know. I'm curious.
http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk237/coloredname1/C1621931-D955-44B7-982A-F5569E7BD6A7_zpswakozdal.png (http://s281.photobucket.com/user/coloredname1/media/C1621931-D955-44B7-982A-F5569E7BD6A7_zpswakozdal.png.html)

So I guess my 4 bolt patten hubs and my ITP wheels will go on my other dx. But that means I get to use my old school racing tires. As soon as I stop being lazy and put them on.

As far as power with little modifications you can pep them up. Not the fastest bikes, but power wise they are awesome. I have a DG exhaust and they do not disappoint. I hill climb all day long on mine.

But I am biassed, I don't own a sx. :)

[Trike_crazy]

From what I know I like the dx and with a bit of modification they can be awsome. My dx doesn't have the rear mechanical disc anymore though. I swapped in a complete timberwolf swingarm into mine so now I have a mechanical drum brake that seems to work fairly well with only a hand brake. I just haven't gotten around to fabbing up a new mount for the pedal

[86T3]

Hmmmm, a couple members I trust are contradicting my experience. I only owned my DR for 3 weeks, it could have been metal on metal or something weird but the rear brakes were awesome. At any rate, it probably wouldn't be too hard to put a hydraulic system on it. My esteemed colleague Ben found this master cylinder to put on o e of my projects that used a frame set up for drum rear.
https://www.bmikarts.com/mobile/Cast-Aluminum-MCP-Hydraulic-Master-Cylinder-_p_597.html

[fabiodriven]

I was thinking you may have been metal on metal Joe, or maybe it was just your huge arms grabbing the brake levers like a gorilla.

Mexinadian, your description of the brakes is spot on! You can't get them adjusted right! I didn't use the foot pedal once when I was riding the DR. It had about 90 degrees of throw before the brakes would grab and I had adjusted, adjusted, adjusted. You can't get them both good. It really doesn't make sense. There were times when I was coming up behind other riders with the front and rear binders on full stop and the bike just kept going. Usually the front would "warm up" or something and come to life a little bit after a couple of seconds of hard braking and that's when the squeaking would happen. Usually the front and rear squeaked at the same time, it was kind of weird.

[El Camexican]

Usually the front and rear squeaked at the same time, it was kind of weird.

Do you still have the cover on the rear? If it's squealing I would check for crud between the pad and the worm gear thingamajigger. It's been a while since I've been into mine, but I suspect the same blue brake squeal stop goop that works on a car would fix the rear squeal on the trike.

Did you replace the rear cable on yours when you went through it? I think the DR uses a different P/N but the YTM cable from Motion Pro stated to be for the YTM200 does NOT work on the YTM200. I bought two only to find that out neither was right and likely pissed of a member on here a few years back over it. Only the Yamaha cable is close to the right length for the 200. All three brake cables on mine are OEM Yamaha and now, as was the case in 1983 the two rear cables do not play well together.

86T3: My rear will lock, but it takes a ridiculous amount of effort (needs a stomp and you can almost hear metal bending) and has offers very little feedback before locking. On low speed trails the hand brake is the way to go on my 200 and I save the foot brake for panic stops.

[muthey]

I have oem cables and pads on mine and I have no problem with the brakes, I find it alarming with what you guys are saying.. I have also installed parking brake locks on both hand levers , and they both work perfectly. I also have a equal balance between rear hand and rear foot brake on mine. I also have no problem locking the rears up with either. In the pic I am posting you can see that the rear adjusters are not adjusted equally. I do get the squeaking noise but only after I set the park brakes, and then after riding for a few feet it stops. I use a tip trailer when hauling all of my atvs and I can ride the 225 up to the front of the trailer and set my park brakes and leave it there out of gear with no worries while I load the rest.
204325

[El Camexican]

muthey, I hope you aren't thinking that my trike (can't speak for the fabster's) has no brakes at all. It's not that at all, it's more like the brakes on my YTM are like the brakes on a 67 Mustang and the ones on my Tri-Z are more like the binders on a 2007 Mustang.

Maybe I'm spoiled when it comes to stopping. I expect a controlled predictable stop when I apply the brakes and I expect good feedback between the onset of braking and full lock. I just took this photo yesterday to send to the guy that makes the cooler (he wasn't sure it would fit and asked me to report back). It almost didn't but I own a Dremel AND a hammer;). It's of the rear of my bike that has been boiling over way too often. The proposed fix? Switch to Gaffer fluid, organic brake pads and add a cooler at the caliper. Will it work? Don't know, but I'll bet it works a heck of a lot better than the brakes on my YTM:lol:
http://i1274.photobucket.com/albums/y434/lucky1366/2002%20KTM%20300%20EXC/DucatiNov92014033_zpsd575f1e7.jpg (http://s1274.photobucket.com/user/lucky1366/media/2002%20KTM%20300%20EXC/DucatiNov92014033_zpsd575f1e7.jpg.html)

[Afrothunderkat]

My first trike was a DX, wicked fun. Parts are super cheap too as they have a lesser following than the honda's. Wheelies for days!

[DohcBikes]

When I built my DX I modified the rear brake to a point where the rear brake would lock up under the slightest pedal pressure. This involved removing the brass adjuster and shimming the plunger that pushes the pad. Worked excellent, an exponential improvement. Nobody really paid attention when I explained how to do it.