Carb has me stumped

[83ATC185]

Ok, so i have a an 83 185s, with a chinese no name carb. Its a different size carb, the throttle slide is larger than the stock keihin. My other 185 ran fine with this carb but its been left sitting for about a year. And when i went to put it on my other bike, i went ahead and cleaned it. Put it on, ran fine, started fine, flooded after about a minute. So I pulled it off, checked the float needle. Found a small piece of trash on the needle. Replaced carb. Wouldn't start without opening the throttle and half choke. So i pull it again, clean jets again and check float needle again for piece of mind. Replaced once more, now it will start as long as you hold it at about 1/4 throttle. It appears to idle fine, but it will always die after 10-15 seconds of idling, runs fine when your riding it. It does it regardless of whether or not the gas cap is on, i know its venting as it should. Pilot screw is backed out 2 1/2 turns, the size of the jets are not stamped anywhere (its a CHEAP carb) Float is set near 1/2 inch. Now the choke seems to do absolutely nothing. It starts in 1-2 pulls, every time, regardless of how the choke is set. It will not die, or slow down or bog or anything at full choke. Any help with this is appreciated ive had this carb off 4 times already and im getting frustrated.

[bumsted200s]

I've gone thru this same thing before few different times. Its a waste of time, reason why they're cheap. My suggestion is buy a decent 185 or 200S carb off eBay, spend the $17 bucks on a carb rebuild kit. Might come with few different jets, 9 out of 10 times the small jet works the best in my experience. Almost certain all of my 185/200S's have a 98 main. Only adjusting from there is air fuel mixture, 1 3/4 to 2 1/4 turns out.

Brian

my wheelers:
1981 Honda 200 5-wheeler
1982 Honda 200 Hondapotomus
1982 Honda 185S
1982 Honda 250R
1984 Honda 200S
1985 Honda 200S
1985 Honda 200X
1985 Honda 200 auto-X

[cap]

If that is not the right carb you should replace it with the proper China carb or a rebuilt original as Bumstead200s mentioned.
Having said that it most likely still plugged up somewhere, use cleaner then compressed air after disassembly into all the ports especially the the idle air scew and jets.

[DohcBikes]

Rarely do I agree with just buying a new carb but in this case, that is also my suggestion. Might as well get the correct carb on there.

When it " floods" is the plug black, wet, dry, how's your spark? Have you checked the spark timing?

All in all its not worth banging your head when they cost twenty bucks.


I disassembled, sonic cleaned, reassembled around 200 total parts from this rack of carbs for a v4 engine today... Be glad you aren't working with these!

200802

[83ATC185]

It no longer floods since i cleaned the float seat/needle, but still dies. Plug is dry black. it uses a little oil but its my girlfriends ride until winter. Ignition timing is spot on, fat blue spark after i replaced the pulser. I think you guys are probably right. I have 2 or 3 185/200 carbs lying around, and it would be easier just to get the rebuild kit and build one of them. At least then i would have a place to start. At first those carbs seem like China's gift to 3 wheelers but they end up being more trouble than they're worth if something happens. Ive been messing with it for days.

[83ATC185]

And DOHC what has a V4? First thought was saab sonnett and overseas fords. But that picture looks lawnmowerish.

[86125m]

find the win cycles carbs I spent about 30 bucks on it and my 200m runs perfectly. They have Japanese carb kits already installed and look almost identical to the original carb.

[JustEnough]

From your original post, it looks like you might still have the original carb. If so, what is wrong with the original and is it a PD85A which is correct for a 83 185s?

Here is a document that is a great reference for model number, jets, settings, etc.

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5019/5467500970_2fbfc676cd_b.jpg

[DohcBikes]

If it is dry black, chances are your pilot circuit is dirty.

Those are Suzuki Cavalcade carbs I posted before.

[83ATC185]

Did a proper plug chop tonight, plug came out coffee brown. I richened it up, leaned it out same deal. I'll just rebuild the original, I'm not sure what number PD it is I'll check on that I probably have 3 or 4 laying around. No sense fooling with what doesn't work. But dohc you are on to something if it hasn't been run and you can pull all you want the plug is dry. But crack the throttle and you're in business.

[83ATC185]

Ive got a spare 200x carb that is in better cleaner shape than the rest of what i've got. Is it just plug and play on the 185? Or do i need to rejet? Also, any recommendations for a rebuild kit brand?

[DohcBikes]

The 200x carb is bigger than a 185 carb. Optimal jetting would be different than stock for either bike, but if its clean throw it on and see what happens.

It is physically larger so it might be tight in there, and you will need to swap the slide as well.

[yaegerb]

Ive got a spare 200x carb that is in better cleaner shape than the rest of what i've got. Is it just plug and play on the 185? Or do i need to rejet? Also, any recommendations for a rebuild kit brand?

2 MM difference between the 185 and 200x (185=22MM, 200x=24MM). Depending on the year of the 200x carb you will either have a 108 or a 110 main jet. If its an 83 you will have a 110, if its an 84-85 you will have a 108. Pilots are the same on the 24MM which is 40. Rebuild it with a shindy kit (you can get those off of ebay for 15 bucks or so.) I would leave the 40 pilot (or you could use a 35) and use the 108 in as your main. It should run fine.

[83ATC185]

I got the shindy kit and a new bowl gasket (the one in the kit is incorrect for some reason) Its got a 108 main which cleaned up nicely and a 40 pilot. I'll rebuild (or supervise one anyway) tonight when my girlfriend gets there. Its her ride its time she learned a little more about it. If the main is too rich i have a 102 and a 100 i can try. I'm not worried about the overall size of the carb, its smaller than the massive carb on there now. I'll let you guys know how it turns out.

[83ATC185]

Well after last night, we're gonna need a lot more than a carb. Was pulling it to fire it up, it backfired and snatched the handle out of my hand, and made a loud thunk noise. Go to pull it again and no compression. I pulled the CDI cover and its jumped time about 60 degrees or so. A total rebuild has long been overdue on this thing anyway. It was pieced together with parts i had laying around, measuring and picking the best parts. The motor is really worn completely out. Does anybody know a good place to get a complete rebuild kit from? Im gonna take this winter and do this right. Slowly learning that yes, you can piece together junk, and yes, it will run, but dont expect any constant reliability. At least the carb is new and ready to go at least ill have a spare to throw on my 200x if need be.

And just like that my girlfriend went from rebuilding carbs to rebuilding engines.

[83ATC185]

Ok ive got the motor rebuilt, but still have carb issues. I replaced the 200x carb with a 185 one i built up. It's strange. It idles smooth, although a little bit high, but it doesn't run away. 104 main jet, 38 pilot. Float is the yellow one, and i don't think it is adjustable. runs very rich(black smoke and the very strong smell of raw gas.) at every RPM. Idle speed screw does nothing, until its in so far it revs it up. Idle mixture screw does nothing, no effect no matter how far in or out it is. Idles fine and revs normally with the choke off, although it bogs a tad when revved. Pull the choke up, it dies like you would expect. If you leave it to idle, it will do it smoothly, indefintely. But it is very rich and the mixture screw has no effect on it running.

[oscarmayer]

your main jet is too big and you need to lower the pin. put the e-clip on the slider pin to the top. mixture screw should be 1 1/4 to 1 1/2 turns out only. any more can cause flooding. make sure you adjust the float. if you know how. if not let us know and we can walk you though.

[83ATC185]

I know how to adjust the black ones with the little tab, but on the yellow plastic float the needle itself just fits into a groove, unless I'm missing parts somewhere. Ill check on the slider needle position and see if i've got any smaller jets, pretty sure I've got a 100 laying around somewhere. My understanding is that the float should shut off the flow at around 1/2 from the bottom of the carb? It seemed about right but i will double check when i get home. Thanks for your help most carbs i've fooled with were lawnmowers, things like that and all the adjustment is new to me. Ive read up a lot on here about them but i learn best with my hands.

[oscarmayer]

Understood. Well, it could be the needle is not correct for the carb. I have seen the Chinese pout in crap parts into an ok carb. You may try using the (connects to float to stop fuel flow)needle from a different carb. That may help. also take a q-tip with some carb leaner on it and clean the seat of the needle, then the needle tip very well. finally take some wd40 and spray onto new q-tip and lube carb seat and needle end. if the needle end is rubber. Chinese rubber tipped needles have been known to dry and crack even when in fuel, so it could just be it is not sealing up any more. in that case again changing the needle will help. (i dealt a lot with chinese parts and they are nothing like the Japanese. 1/4 the quality and workmanship. when I use Chinese parts or engiens, i rebuilt them to my standards before it gets put to use.

[oscarmayer]

oh, the mixture screw is the screw on the bottom of the carb meaning you have to have a small flat blade screwdriver that points directly up to adjust the mixture. that screw should be no more than 1 and 1/2 turns out. very rarely will it ever need 2 turns.

[83ATC185]

that may very well be my problem i haven't had a chance to look at it very close yet, maybe tonight. I have had problems before where the Viton or whatever it is starts breaking down and getting sticky so i'm always sure to check that. but i have 4 keihin's and 2 chinese carbs and the accompanying box of parts...i thought the needle i used was the one from the shindy overhaul kit i just bought but i could be wrong.

And what years/models had the yellow (originally clear?) plastic floats? The round ones. Every keihin i have has these floats, but all i ever see in the shop manuals is the black ones with the metal tab.

[83ATC185]

Ok after checking everything out I put a 100 main jet in it, 38 pilot, turned mixture screw out 1 1/2 turns, changed needle to a legit one (it IS obvious at second glance which is chinese) and checked slide needle position, clip was in middle slot. Fires up first pull, no choke, no black smoke. Idle is high, the speed screw has no effect. Pilot screw does have an effect now, but will run with it all the way seated which I did not expect. Very slight bog when throttle is cracked, strong and smooth otherwise. I may see if I have a 35 pilot jet and try that. But what would cause the idle to be like it is?

[oscarmayer]

to fix the bog, put the clip at 1 down from center. then test turning mixture to 1 1/4 or 1 3/4 to see if it has an affect. if the cable is binding or kinked, or short, it could cause the idle screw (screw on side of the carb) to not work as the slide is not closing all the way. check that. if you have an adjustment for cable length, try adjusting it to get a better seating carb. I imagine the Chinese carb has a slight taller length to the slide and it is holding it open. you make have to take the cable to shop and have them extend the inner slide cable (part that slides inside the sheath) about 1/2 " or so.

sounds like your right there.
yep as you can see there is a difference between Chinese and japan quality. Chinese believe cheap, cheap, cheap and ignore quality. we raced Chinese ATVs for many years and I can tell you first hand the quality. I always rebuild the engines not only for racing but with better parts. w/o that we would have never made it very long.

[83ATC185]

Carb is stock keihin with the matching slide. Cable has been swapped out, the other was frozen up. So its very possible that its not long enough. Will try moving the clip down and maybe adjusting, if not swapping throttle cables out. One night at a time. The fact that the slide isn't closing fully like it should or that the idle screw is wrong, is the only way i can see it not working.

[oscarmayer]

ok chec it out. you can also take the screw out to where it no longer touches the slide and see what happens. but yea i suspect the cable is too short.

keep us posted and good luck, your right there.

[83ATC185]

Ok i've got this straightened out. Removed 38 pilot jet, jet was clean. Looked in carb body, could see light through the pilot hole. Took a wire from a wire brush and ran it through the hole, making circles with the end of the wire. Some varnish and crud came out. Shined light through the hole, it didn't appear to be any different. Replaced 38 pilot with a 35, put it back together, fired it up, ran good. went to put gas tank in place while it was idling, revvs to the moon. Jiggled cable, idle surges. Removed adjuster boot on carb to find adjuster loose. Tried adjusting, no dice. The adjuster was too loose in the threads of the top cap to stay in place. So for right or wrong i removed the cap, took out the adjuster, put GM engine sealant on the threads and adjusted for my cable, let it set up, put it all together and it runs perfectly.

I've gotta recommend GM engine sealant, this stuff holds up to anything, and creates a rubber-like seal when it sets, not like an RTV. Its become my go-to silicone replacement. http://www.summitracing.com/parts/nal-88861417
Thanks everyone for the help!

[oscarmayer]

awesome! well, congrats on fixing it.