Shifting with the clutch... why?

[manbearpig]

I see so many gopro videos of guys tearing down the street in a straight line using the clutch every time they change gears. wondering if this is the norm for everyone or if these guys are just doing it a different way.

I use the clutch lever to start, come to a stop, and to feather and gain RPMs when needed. I just unload the trans with a momentary break in acceleration/deceleration leverage and just shift. I have been riding this way as long as i can remember, taught to ride this way by my father. i have never, ever had a transmission component failure.

i see no point in letting go of the bars to grab that lever more often than you have to.

and dont tell me that its because its harder on internal components than using the lever. By using the lever, youre wearing your fibers faster...

[tri again]

We'd drive heavy trucks without the clutch as you describe.
70,000 lbs?
Safer than having everything slow down and mismesh.
Back in the day when the jake brake would kill the engine if you hit the clutch.
The theory was to match rpms with road speed etc and shift PERFECTLY in time.

as far as bike engines?
My thought is that we have more 'slop' because of the multi plate clutch
so timing to shift doesn't need to be as perfect.
They'll slip in when they line up.
Not real usable info but just a thought.

[6speedthumper]

I power shift all the time. There are occasions when I'm I do use the clutch. Usually low speed driving. I have found my 350x has a great shifting trans and I don't use it much at low speeds. My Warrior on the other hand, is a bit notchy and using the clutch makes is easier at low speeds. Power shifting causes less wear on the clutch because it stays continuously engaged because you are not disengaging it then re-engaging it. Especially under heavy throttle and the clutch has a lot of "shock" applied to it when you let go of the lever.

I think a lot of people do it because they were taught to. They may have been told that you absolutely have to use it every time you change gears (which I think has a lot to do with people's experiences driving cars). Depending on the car or truck, I don't use the clutch. Some vehicles are easy to shift without using it. Others either grind, or you have to wind them out that little bit so they'll slide into gear when everything relaxes/lines up. The NV4500 behind a Cummins power shifts very well.

[hatc200x1]

On our 1986 Freightliner Semi with a 10 speed we never use the clutch except for taking off. Get the RPM's and speed right for the next gear and she will slip right in. Sometimes it will grind a little bit but if you try using the clutch it doesn't stop the small amount of grinding.

[El Camexican]

I always use them on cars and light trucks, but bikes and trikes not much, only hard up and down shifts, say at over 3/4 of max RPM and usually because I'm on the gas when I do it. Now in saying that my magnetic drain plugs are pretty fuzzy when I pull them. That may be part of it.

Bracket drag bikes don't use the clutch after launch, they just kill the ignition for .020 of a second and an air cylinder moves the shifter up with the press of a button.

[nstyle73]

You are comparing synchronized and un-synchronized transmissions with different types of clutches. "Powershifting" is far different than your Freightliner and the technique that some use to "power-shift" is hard on transmission components when the gears are not meshing with the next gear already traveling at approximately the same speed. Powershifting a street bike transmission will wear the dogs on the gears depending on the tranny design and the rider. These are far greater power levels than a trike, but the same is true. I'm not an expert rider by any stretch, but at the dragstrip, I have more luck with just an ever-so-slight squeeze of the clutch to unload the plates and provide a seamless transition to the next gear.

[nstyle73]

El, you were all over that I see

[Ol Deuce]

That's what I do also....never broke a trans!!!!!:D:Bounce




I see so many gopro videos of guys tearing down the street in a straight line using the clutch every time they change gears. wondering if this is the norm for everyone or if these guys are just doing it a different way.

I use the clutch lever to start, come to a stop, and to feather and gain RPMs when needed. I just unload the trans with a momentary break in acceleration/deceleration leverage and just shift. I have been riding this way as long as i can remember, taught to ride this way by my father. i have never, ever had a transmission component failure.

i see no point in letting go of the bars to grab that lever more often than you have to.

and dont tell me that its because its harder on internal components than using the lever. By using the lever, youre wearing your fibers faster...

[Dirtcrasher]

Maybe it's faster for racing (def when drag racing) but I just let off the throttle and it clicks right in. Fast corner, TOO hot?, I just jam it down.

Knock on wood, never crashed a tranny yet......

[manbearpig]

Yeah on a hot run at the dunes alot of times theres no time for a cluch especially when your loosing altitude on a vertical climb.....also great to dump the cluch down hill to start or if you stall mid-flight ! You`re talkin water pumper 250r right ?

yes.. also to bumpstart. That 2nd corner at Cahuilla Creek gets me often. and ya... while hitting the buggy whoops at the bottom of every sand hill is not the time to have to worry about grabbing another lever every couple seconds.

and im talkin every bike and trike ive ridden thats had a manual clutch.

[bkm]

My bike has been in the family since 89 and this is how my old man taught me how to ride and my lower end is still factory sealed.

[6speedthumper]

I generally use the clutch for downshifts. Especially when I'm coming into a turn too hot on a trail and I need to "jump" down two gears. I'm already on the brakes to slow down, just click, click, let out the clutch, mash the throttle, and slide around that turn.

[czac]

I never use a clutch, in fact my trike doesn't even have one on it!

Well, I admit,its a semi automatic but hey, its not to say that if it weren't, id be using the clutch!!! lol

[jakep53]

I was taught to use a clutch and I think i'll keep using it!!

[Louis Mielke]

My attitude has always been what feels right at the moment. If it feels like I need to clutch, I do, if it feels like I don't, I don't.

If your not "GOOD" at riding a manual vehicle then I say ALWAYS clutch. Just to be on the safe side.

[ps2fixer]

I have always clutched between gears, of course that is how I was taught to ride a atv. Just to put it out there, semi autos clutch between gears too, the shifter clutches, shifts, then lets the clutch out, check out a big red some time. I suspect either way the transmission gears don't face much wear, but the shift forks might if they are being forced into gear, bent shift fork anyone?

[Mosh]

While many people have done it with success on their machines...I have worked on far far too many atv and dirtbike engines with ground shift forks and rounded engagement cogs popping out of second gear...for me to see any benefit in not using the clutch. To say it saves wear on the clutch is a foul assesment as well. Plates are cheap and far easier to replace than gears and case splitting.

I liken it to a turn signal on a car. The lever is there but too many dont use it nor can Anybody force them to..but it sure would save a lot of headaches if more did.

[DohcBikes]

I'm with Mosh on this, power shifting wears out forks, dogs, and slots faster, no matter how good you are at it.

When doing all gear runs on a dyno, when the average guy shifts, the HP and torque curves drop considerably, sometimes all the way off the bottom of the graph for slower shifters. This is obviously due to the time it takes to operate the clutch without the engine under power.

When the average guy power shifts, the curves obviously do not dip nearly as deep before returning to the levels from the higher rpm in the previous gear, due to the time saved by not operating the clutch while the throttle is closed. So in turn, the forks, dogs, and slots are subjected to a much higher load immediately when the throttle is opened again in an instant.

Some riders are proficient enough with the clutch to keep the power levels from dropping significantly while shifting, and yet even less riders are able to match or exceed the power levels occurring while reentering the next gear up...(guess who:D) I've never seen anybody that could keep their curve higher through the gears than I can using a clutch, and that includes people power shifting. The only way to make my shifts faster is with the air shifter el mentioned, or for some bikes, just a fuel or ignition interruptor known as a quickshift, which will allow full throttle shifts. Race use.

The big difference is how the force is applied. If you slam 300lbs into a wall with no cushion, more damage will occur than if you had a buffer between the weight and the wall. The 300lbs of force is still transferred, but much more smoothly, controlled, with a less destructive outcome.

Clutches are a lot cheaper and easier to replace than gears and forks, and when operated properly, do not rob power on 99.99% of shifts anyway.

[aldochina]

I like my clutch very much! Unless your on the strip, or shooting for a hole shot I just dont see the point. Even then, does it really make you faster?

[manbearpig]

To each their own, i suppose. the racers do it one way, the recreational riders do it another

[slashfan7964]

I was always taught to shift a bike/three wheeler/quad with the clutch. Maybe it's just how they are used to riding.

[Ghostv2]

God (Honda) gave us clutches and by golly I'm going to use it. Japanese workers didn't slave over this bike all day for me not to use it.

Plus I always thought you were suppose to.

[Afrothunderkat]

I never use a clutch, in fact my trike doesn't even have one on it!

Well, I admit,its a semi automatic but hey, its not to say that if it weren't, id be using the clutch!!! lol

Still has a clutch that can be slipped! Hold the shift lever all the way down or up and let it out like a hand clutch.

My 2250dx's clutch would drag if you just clicked it into gear, something was broke but It allowed me to hold the shifter up or down between gears that acted like a clutch. Was super fun revving it up and dumping it in 2nd!

[fabiodriven]

It's true that the correct way to drive a truck with a non synchronized tranny is without the clutch. However, as others have said, you're "lining up" the gears in between shifts with the engine based on road speed, incline or decline, weight, steering drag/scrub, and many other variables. The tranny is never just slammed into gear, or "power shifted". The transmission is fully engaged and in gear before any load is applied to it.

When you power shift a trike, assuming your definition is to hold the bike wide open and just upshift, or just jam the shifter down while decelerating, you're not "lining up" the gears. You're just crashing them at that point. I'm guessing the only thing saving them then is the shock load being released through tire spin or skidding. I always use the clutch on a trike, even when drag racing. When racing I only let of the throttle a hair, if at all, while shifting. I do use the clutch though. I am very confident in my ability to shift and feel as though I'm more than likely faster than a large percentage of people at it. Nearly every single vehicle I've owned has been a manual and I'm a truck driver so I shift gears all day a lot of the time and have been for almost 15 years.

[350for350]

I always use the clutch. The exception was my old Bultaco dirt bike. I only used it to start and stop. Otherwise it would slip. Now on my 1997 kx250, if I want all out acceleration I'll use the clutch to shift, but I won't let off the throttle at all.

[6speedthumper]

It's true that the correct way to drive a truck with a non synchronized tranny is without the clutch. However, as others have said, you're "lining up" the gears in between shifts with the engine based on road speed, incline or decline, weight, steering drag/scrub, and many other variables. The tranny is never just slammed into gear, or "power shifted". The transmission is fully engaged and in gear before any load is applied to it.

When you power shift a trike, assuming your definition is to hold the bike wide open and just upshift, or just jam the shifter down while decelerating, you're not "lining up" the gears. You're just crashing them at that point. I'm guessing the only thing saving them then is the shock load being released through tire spin or skidding. I always use the clutch on a trike, even when drag racing. When racing I only let of the throttle a hair, if at all, while shifting. I do use the clutch though. I am very confident in my ability to shift and feel as though I'm more than likely faster than a large percentage of people at it. Nearly every single vehicle I've owned has been a manual and I'm a truck driver so I shift gears all day a lot of the time and have been for almost 15 years.


Yeah, that description of powershifting that you gave, Fabio, is not how I do it at all! Lol! I always release the throttle between shifts. So, technically, I guess it's not considered "powershifting". Can't stand gear clash. I almost always use the clutch for downshifting though. I just feel it's far too much load being applied to the transmission during downshifts to not use the clutch. Interesting to see who does what, and why!

[RIDE-RED 250r]

Anyone who has ever split a bottom end and comprehends how the transmission works/shifts can easily see why shifting with a clutch makes it easier on the transmission components..particularly the shift forks. I too have seen plenty of scrubbed shift forks and their corresponding hubs on the gear resulting in "missing" gears... And that is a fact.. Disagree?? I don't care.. you are wrong. Occasionally shifting this way is one thing, but habitually it WILL wear forks faster.

I have done it on occasion, but rarely. And I too am an experienced truck driver. One thing about shifting this way that tells me its more impact and strain on the NOW DISCONTINUED shift forks and trans gears (except Yukons) is the abrubt manner in which the engine RPM comes down when shifting up this way.... and of course the abrupt increase in RPM when down shifting. I suppose if you do it slowly enough and get good at matching the next gear before clicking it in you can get smoother at it.. but that would be SLOWER than shifting with the clutch because now you are waiting for engine RPM to come down and match for ground speed in the next gear up (the way you properly shift a heavy truck)... So then what is the real benefit??

But do what you want, it's your machine... and you won't ever ride my machines if thats how you treat em.

Try this sometime: Pin the throttle and do not lift... just a quick tap on the clutch and shift up.. you might be surprised just how quickly you get up through the gears and accelerate.

[manbearpig]

i totally undertand how these transmissions shift.. thats why i can shift without the clutch without damaging components.

i have also split MANY bottom ends (2 and 4 stroke) and have seen the damage first hand. i also know how it happens. it does not happen from someone who knows how to shift without the clutch. it happens when a motor pops out or is accidentally knocked out of gear and is slammed back into gear while the motor is still at high revvs (without clutch). Missed shift anyone? It also happens because people genuinely do not know what theyre doing and try to "power shift" without blipping the clutch. If you try to ride these bike like they have an override transmission, you will not have a good time.

heres an example: one of my go pro vids during a race. if you dont want to watch, just listen. like i said, i do not use the clutch at any time during a race other than to bump start after locking the breaks, to feather to gain RPM, and to start and stop.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gu4lRidPQpw&list=UUHJF0gmNgKChEUhk0jIU8Xw


never once have i drained metal flake oil from one of my own bikes that i ride this way

[stroberts22]

I use to never use a clutch but have been trying to use the clutch more and found that it helps control the power of a 2 stroke to keep it in the power band. Also under braking you get less wheel hop using the clutch instead of just down shifting. I have also been ruff on discontinued forks so I'm trying to be easier on my stuff. Here's a article about James Stewart not using a clutch.http://www.racerxvt.com/article/gary-bailey-trackside---in-the-clutch

[The_Steve_Man]

I dont use the clutch. I do let off the gas a little before shifting. If I start getting out of the powerband I just kick it down.

[6speedthumper]

I will say this, none of my machines have metal flakes, or chunks, in the oil. Always super clean. But, I'm a maintenance freak.

[Keith Salyer]

I use it to get holeshots or to regain control in the corners, but other than that I don't use while racing. If I am just putting around I will use it most of the time without thinking about it and I feel that clutches and transmissions are tougher than you think.

[RIDE-RED 250r]

You guys aren't getting it. The clutch is the component in the transmission group that is intended to bear the brunt of the wear and tear. When you take that component out of the picture, what is now going to take the abuse?

But anyway....... It's pointless to debate because one side is never going to convince the other side that they are wrong...


What is the best oil to run in my 250r? :lol::naughty:

[manbearpig]

There isnt a right an a wrong in this case. its obvious that both methods work. my initial inquiry was related to why people do what they do, not if damage was occurring.

[DohcBikes]

There isnt a right an a wrong in this case. its obvious that both methods work. my initial inquiry was related to why people do what they do, not if damage was occurring.



i have never, ever had a transmission component failure.

i see no point in letting go of the bars to grab that lever more often than you have to.

and dont tell me that its because its harder on internal components than using the lever. By using the lever, youre wearing your fibers faster...

Wwwweeellll, it sure was an open invitation for the people that know it's better to use it to tell you why. Hehe.

[manbearpig]

i said that with confidence that there is no damage occurring if done properly. those statements were made to eliminate the anticipated claim of "because its what youre supposed to do to not damage components." this is a claim i feel that would be made by an inexperienced/uneducated rider who's opinion, quite frankly, im not seeking

i wanted to hear from guys like Lou, keith salyer, STroberts, El, and dohc. guys i know can really ride, and ride often. seems like through their feedback one thing can be established: to each their own. some do it very well with the clutch, some do it very well without.

it seems as though WHY people use it has to do with the assumption that it may be damaging or hard on the internal components other than the clutch plates.

[El Camexican]

By using the lever, youre wearing your fibers faster...

I would argue that plate wear from using the clutch once you are moving is negligible as everything is turning in the same direction. I'm pretty sure most wear occurs on launch and when you are stopped with the engine running and in gear with the clutch lever pulled in. Once the assembly gets worn to the point that it can slip at high speed (that is actually where it works the hardest to stay together) death is imminent. Top end is where you will first notice a worn clutch, unless you're into stump pulling.

[Mosh]

So the rest of us dont ride well and often?
I cant speak for the others but me personally up until last year raced with the Ohio guys and trail ride.
Any one of them will tell you I dont ride a trail bike and a race bike. Everywhere I go I am on my 250r.
I too used to shift whithout the clutch in racing applications..I thought I was doing it right...But when I split my engine over a loose crank bearing I found evidence to be different.

[manbearpig]

So the rest of us dont ride well and often?
I cant speak for the others but me personally up until last year raced with the Ohio guys and trail ride.
Any one of them will tell you I dont ride a trail bike and a race bike. Everywhere I go I am on my 250r.
I too used to shift whithout the clutch in racing applications..I thought I was doing it right...But when I split my engine over a loose crank bearing I found evidence to be different.


O jeez, i knew SOMEONE was gonna go there...
NO. thats not saying everyone else doesnt ride or ride hard, those were just a few contributors to the thread that i could think of off the top of my head. some guys wrench, some ride. the above mentioned do both, very well. yourself included mosh. Those opinions are valued above others. your contributions are valid, though they differ from my own personal experience... probably because... well.. i ride a Honda ;)

[czac]

Racing may be the only truly good reason to not use a clutch. that extra fraction of a split second you'd get may put you in the lead.
Other than that though, either use it or don't its your bike, if it breaks its you who has to fix it, no one else so have fun,ride and, enjoy.
Enjoying yourself while riding is all that really matters!

[Frankencelery]

I certainly can't speak from the voice of experience, since I've probably put less than 3 hours ride time on my Tecate, but while I can and have shifted it without the clutch (usually by accident), it doesn't quite feel right that way, and since Kawasaki was nice enough to include a clutch for me to use, I'll probably continue to use it.

[Mosh]

O jeez, i knew SOMEONE was gonna go there...
NO. thats not saying everyone else doesnt ride or ride hard, those were just a few contributors to the thread that i could think of off the top of my head. some guys wrench, some ride. the above mentioned do both, very well. yourself included mosh. Those opinions are valued above others. your contributions are valid, though they differ from my own personal experience... probably because... well.. i ride a Honda ;)
Yeah I meant no mal intent by that. Was just bringing it up.
Like I said earlier, some have no problems with it. I know Flyin Brian Chillenski has probably logged some of the most laps in race applications that I am aware of in the modern era of trike riding. Finally after 20 years of him racing his R, 3 read gear knocked 2 cogs off and caused him problems. That was a bone stock 86 R engine that only saw racing. The only benefit to not using the clutch I can even slightly say is due to arm pump. It is ironic you mentioned Hondas being superior. In my days of engine stuff, I actually see Yamaha's have less issues with their transmissions than Honda.

Glamy..Thanks again for another valuable post. I think we are all a lil smarter for it.

[atctim]

I was taught to use my clutch when shifting. Always did, until I started racing. Since then (2006) I only use it when putting around. For racing and trail applications and on the street on my dual sport I just shift. I only use my clutch to stop and start now.

[250rAL]

Racing may be the only truly good reason to not use a clutch. that extra fraction of a split second you'd get may put you in the lead.
Other than that though, either use it or don't its your bike, if it breaks its you who has to fix it, no one else so have fun,ride and, enjoy.
Enjoying yourself while riding is all that really matters!

Until the next guy buys that abused transmission.

[keister]

I just unload the trans with a momentary break in acceleration/deceleration leverage and just shift....


Power shifting causes less wear on the clutch because it stays continuously engaged because you are not disengaging it then re-engaging it.

This is an interesting debate. My first reaction is that we have very different definitions of "power shifting."

Here's what we have always called powershifting. This was copied from Urban Dictionary.com.
To power shift a manual transmission vehicle, after inital launch and upon reaching the engine's power curve peak, you must keep the accelerator fully depressed, apply the clutch, upshift, and release the clutch.

You guys are describing letting off the throttle and shifting without the clutch. What we call a powershift is holding the trike wide open and blipping the clutch when you click a gear.

When I am drag racing or coming off the line in a race, I always powershift in this manner. Once launched, I never lift from full throttle on my R in a drag race.

BUT, in the normal course of a race: turns, whoops, jumps (TT, MX), I just bang gears. Nobody has time to be grabbing clutch levers..... but when the wide open straightaway appears (ie. Pine Lake home stretch), I go back to the WOT powershift technique.

The trails are a very different story. I constantly use my clutch in the woods (I'm talking 350X now). Tight turns, cresting blind hills, creek crossings, log hopping all require a lot of clutch modulation. That is one big difference, Paul. Then again, you don't have that kind of terrain to negotiate.

[onformula1]

Power shifting is when you "stab" the clutch during a shift.

Some Suzuki's, Kawasaki's, Rotax's and some Yamaha's have more neutrals then gears under full throttle. (2-3 & 4 wheelers)

(Honda's for the most part have excellent transmissions) Across the board.

If you want to go "full auto"

Use a very light trans oil, like Torco MTF or other. pours like water.

Polish the shift shafts, gears, back cut the gears if needed & cryo everything if possible.

Then you will have a "True automatic" for the most part. Change the trans. fluid every time you ride.

The down shifts are harder on the trans. then the up shifts because of chain slop.

[Crazyktmmatt]

My 200x likes the clutch. Alot of the time it dont wanna shift w/o it for some reason. It can be shifted w/o it, just have to be nice is all.

[nd4speed]

I have shifted with out the clutch many times wide open throttle drag racing with 2 stroke motors with no ill affects. Mostly cause my foot was faster than my hand and I needed the next gear.

After you have done it a few times at full throttle it is not so scary but the clutch has its purpose for different situations.