New Head and Now New Problem...

[ZacH_GrifF]

I replaced the head on my 83 Honda 185s. I did it to get good studs to mount the head pipe on because the old ones snapped off and I didnt feel like dealing with helicoil. It also needed a new head gasket. I lapped the valves in, put new valve stem seals in it, and I put a new head gasket on it. I go to put it all together and everything is fine up untill the point where the cdi case goes on. Also I never messed with the cylinder or piston just head gasket up. I can pull the recoil starter and everything spins fine but as soon as I put the back part of the CDI housing on the head the bike instantly becomes stiff and is a PITA to spin over. I thought maybe I tightened the CDI case bolts too tight seeing as their are no torque specs in the service manual but there barely snugged up now and it didnt get much better. I got the bike craned but it will not idle and after I got it cranked it slowly started dying as if you push on the center of one of those little mini fans untill it stops even thought the on switch is on.

It really has me stumped. The timing is correct and the valves are lashed correctly.

Can anyone help?

[rg97]

I'm guessing that you mean the cam/Advancer cover? Ive never heard of that problem before. Does it feel like the cam is grinding against the cover?
It seems that maybe the cam was not pushed far enough into the head if something is grinding.
How did you check the timing?


Which part is it that it becomes stiff when it is installed?
Part A
https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQ5WvGZ0N6iityOP4-OsA0Ibvc32-ZsOWlgPnmUQEE8OCmbZDHpeg


Part B

http://i.ebayimg.com/t/1985-HONDA-ATC-200X-CDI-COVER-/00/s/NzY4WDEwMjQ=/z/U9gAAOxy015SKTEs/$T2eC16R,!y!FIc4TH(srBSKTErtThg~~60_35.JPG

[ZacH_GrifF]

Thanks its the the first part your showing. and thats the only thing Ican think is wrong but I dont see how it could be out farther than its supposed to. For the timing I lined up the timing marks on the cam and head cover and on the flywheel and the lobes on the cam were pointing down when I installed the cam.

Oh and there is no grinding noise everything just seems really tight.

[YTZ drew]

Are you sure there aren't accidentally TWO camshaft thrust washers installed, like maybe one stuck to a film of oil on the head, and another on the cam at the same time? Are you using the cam cover (top half of the head) that belongs with that head? I have seen cams bind up when mixing and matching heads and cam covers (they are machined together and are therefore a mated pair). Not sure why it would only bind up when putting the ignition housing on, though. Is the bushing on the right side of the camshaft properly seated under the cam cover? If its out of place to the left maybe that could do it, but I thought they were pinned into the head so they couldn't move.

edit: are you sure the cam sprocket bolts are the right ones (not too long), and are the rocker shafts installed correctly, with the right bolt holding down that little metal piece that retains them, right behind the cam sprocket?

[ZacH_GrifF]

The head and cover are not a matched set. I dont think there is more than one thrust washer and I made sure the cam bushing was seated with the pin in the hole underneath it. I guess I will pull the cam tomorrow and see if everything checks out. If I am wrong and the timing is off is that even a possible cause to my problem but I dont think it is off because it ran good other than the drag Im getting when I cranked it up.

[rg97]

Heres what you do. Put some grease (white lithium or assembly lube-- something noticeable) on the cam bolts, pretty much anywhere that sticks out on the cam. Then bolt your cam cover on how you normally would. DO NOT CRANK IT. Take everything back off. Look on the cover to see if any of the grease transferred to it. You will see where your problem lies and where things are becoming tight.
If everything checks out and nothing transferred, I dont know where to go from there. How did you check the timing?

[ZacH_GrifF]

Ok so I went outside and pulled the cover back off and it has new wear marks on surface wear the cam and cover meet. They are more towards the bottom and left if your looking at the cam from the CDI side of the bike.

[rg97]

Sounds like cam sprocket bolts. Try removing the bolts and do the grease trick. Careful not to move the engine crank, as it will mess with your timing

[ZacH_GrifF]

There is a raised surface on the back of the cover that keeps pressure on the cam to keep it from coming out of the head sideways. That is the spot that is wearing. It's a machined surface that the cam rides on there is no way the bolts can touch it. I wish I couple take a picture but my phone won't upload it correctly.

[DohcBikes]

The cover does not retain the cam, and the can does not normally "ride" on the cover.

When you say "the head and cover are not a matched set" do you mean the advancer cover or the cam and rocker cover/cap? Just making sure. If its the head and the rocker cover that doesn't match, we can't really help you, because they MUST match.

My guess is the cam is not installed correctly, one way or the other.

[rg97]

The cam shouldnt touch that surface, it should go through that o-ringed slot and touch nowhere else. I'm stumped for now
Great info from DOHC above!

[Gearheadtom]

Make sure you have a gasket in there, not just sealer, been there, tried that.

[ZacH_GrifF]

Sorry man I think it was a pice of silicone that squeezed out when I put the valve cover on. But I want know for a while my cam chain fell back down and took a piece of wire with it so now I have to pull the flywheel and it's housing to get to it. Man this sucks haha.

[YTZ drew]

Try fishing with a magnet. I have dropped the chain before...

[ZacH_GrifF]

I have a flexible magnet at work imma try to use it hopefully that works. It's real strong.

[ZacH_GrifF]

Oh and if the problem does end up being the head and valve cover would a machine shop be able match them to each other?

[DohcBikes]

Oh and if the problem does end up being the head and valve cover would a machine shop be able match them to each other?you know what, there's a very long answer to that.

The short answer is, get a matching set. Lol. If they don't match, its a problem right now for sure. PM me for an explanation if you want.

Don't take the engine apart to fish the chain. I drop them in there just to freak people out. Just get a magnet and rotate the crank to guide it on. Except you mentioned a wire getting pulled in. Copper or steel?

[ZacH_GrifF]

Ha it's a piece of a coat hanger. If I can get it out with the magnet I will but otherwise I'm not gonna jeperdize the motor I'll get it out. Thanks I really wish someone had mentioned to me that I needed a matching set so now I'm stuck with a head I can't use if when I put er back to get her it still don't work.

[DohcBikes]

Ha it's a piece of a coat hanger. If I can get it out with the magnet I will but otherwise I'm not gonna jeperdize the motor I'll get it out. Thanks I really wish someone had mentioned to me that I needed a matching set so now I'm stuck with a head I can't use if when I put er back to get her it still don't work.

I have a really nice 200s topend for sale in the classifieds. Matching head cap, lol. PM me and we can work a deal. Payments are fine since you are in a pinch.

Fish for the hanger, you'll get it.

Not an ad guys, just an attempt to help a member out.

[ZacH_GrifF]

So I got the wire out by removing the head and using a magnet. I cleaned where the cam sits and put the motor back together to see if anything was causing the cam to get bound up but no luck its still tight. So Ill have to get a new head and cover for now.

[Dirtcrasher]

Since when did we have to have "matched sets"?? Like the elusive left 250R lower case?? People break them and find another one.

The long and short of it is you are overlooking something simple. As a general rule, "nothing" should require excessive force to assemble or bind once assembled.

Don't be a parts changer, get some pics up here or figure it out.

[greenhuman]

I think its the small cam bushing being squeezed out of shape because the pin is not located properly. Pushing it in by hand is fine because it will only go so far if its squashed and turns freely then the cover goes on and when you tighten it up the cover is pushing the cam into the squashed bush and the cam becomes tight.

[ZacH_GrifF]

This is getting confusing haha.

[Dirtcrasher]

You know the pin he speaks of correct?? It holds the bearing in place, you also have a rubber plug in there that directs the oil to the cam oil galleries. If that pin was off a bit and you tightened it down Green Human could be spot on.

IDK when this motor got rebuilt last but I always recommend buying the Dennis Kirk timing guide set and a new cam chain. They get a bit noisy after many years....

[ZacH_GrifF]

Yea I know of the pin. Let me ask you this tho upon looking closer I can see where the previous owner bolted down the head with the pin not seated correctly. Would this cause my problem. I do have it seated correctly.

[rg97]

If there is a raised surface on that pin-bushing mating surface on the head then it will have to be sanded out, carefully. If not, then it will never seat correctly

[Scootertrash]

Since when did we have to have "matched sets"?? Like the elusive left 250R lower case?? People break them and find another one.

The long and short of it is you are overlooking something simple. As a general rule, "nothing" should require excessive force to assemble or bind once assembled.

Don't be a parts changer, get some pics up here or figure it out.



You know that there is a gasket that goes between the pulse generator housing and the head/valve cover, right? Number 2 in the pic. Put the gasket in and you should be good to go. Replace the O-ring on the housing while you're at it, along with the gasket between the CDI cover and the housing. Do it right the first time.

ETA: Don't substitute RTV or silicone for the gaskets!!!


189580

[Scootertrash]

I think its the small cam bushing being squeezed out of shape because the pin is not located properly. Pushing it in by hand is fine because it will only go so far if its squashed and turns freely then the cover goes on and when you tighten it up the cover is pushing the cam into the squashed bush and the cam becomes tight.

If this was the case I would think that the binding would be evident once the head/valve cover is torqued down. He's making it sound like he is having trouble with the pulse generator housing causing binding once he tightens it down


everything is fine up untill the point where the cdi case goes on. Also I never messed with the cylinder or piston just head gasket up. I can pull the recoil starter and everything spins fine but as soon as I put the back part of the CDI housing on the head the bike instantly becomes stiff and is a PITA to spin over.

see my previous post

[DohcBikes]

185s heads are line bored for the cam. Using an unmatched head and cap is not recommended. One option is to have the pair line honed to match again, as long as there will be acceptable clearances for the cam after honing.

Sometimes changing parts is faster and cheaper than using whatever you have and ruining other components because you wanted to save a buck.

[atc007]

Just read this entire thread................. Put a gasket on it. DOHC is right. "Dealers",manufacturers,I should say,demand ,and will only sell,,,matched sets. I have mix matched Countless many in my years. never had an issue. Tranny or head/cam wise. maybe I'm just lucky,,,Nope,that's not it !

[ZacH_GrifF]

Atc007 and scootertrash y'all nailed it on the head! I found the old gasket stupid me forgot one went there because of the o-ring. I stuck it on and turned it over. It's like butter takes so much less effort. Thankyou guys! This has had me stressed out having this going on and having to take care of my college stuff. I got to put a new ring set on it though. I decided I'm just gonna go ahead and do a full top end refresh chain and guides too! Sorry DOHC I would get the top end I was gonna get from you but I just don't have the need or money for it now. Sorry man. Thank y'all it's fixed!

[DohcBikes]

Atc007 and scootertrash y'all nailed it on the head! I found the old gasket stupid me forgot one went there because of the o-ring. I stuck it on and turned it over. It's like butter takes so much less effort. Thankyou guys! This has had me stressed out having this going on and having to take care of my college stuff. I got to put a new ring set on it though. I decided I'm just gonna go ahead and do a full top end refresh chain and guides too! Sorry DOHC I would get the top end I was gonna get from you but I just don't have the need or money for it now. Sorry man. Thank y'all it's fixed!no need for apology, I'm glad it worked for you

[Scootertrash]

Atc007 and scootertrash y'all nailed it on the head! I found the old gasket stupid me forgot one went there because of the o-ring. I stuck it on and turned it over. It's like butter takes so much less effort. Thankyou guys! This has had me stressed out having this going on and having to take care of my college stuff. I got to put a new ring set on it though. I decided I'm just gonna go ahead and do a full top end refresh chain and guides too! Sorry DOHC I would get the top end I was gonna get from you but I just don't have the need or money for it now. Sorry man. Thank y'all it's fixed!


It's amazing what a difference .020 thick gasket makes ;)

[ZacH_GrifF]

Yea it amazed me I was thinking there is no way this will work but I put it on and walla it fixed it!