Valvoline 2-cycle TC-W3 oil

[nachop]

I was out of premix that I normally use, so I bought Valvoline 2-stroke oil since I didn't want to wait for my other oil to arrive. Since I have not used this oil before, I mixed it to spec which is 20:1 for my 85 ATC250R. I know that 2-stoke oil is much better than it used to be, but I didn't want to take any chances which is why I mixed at 20:1. It seems WAY too rich. If anybody has used this oil before, what is a safe more diluted ratio to use. Thanks.

[rg97]

Go to 35:1 or 40:1. Barnett468 will inevitably write a novel about this oil.

[nachop]

Barnett468 will inevitably write a novel about this oil.

Thanks for the response. Is this a good thing or a bad thing? On a side note, this oil really wreaks. It reminds me of Yamalube R.

[90guy]

On a side note, this oil really wreaks. It reminds me of Yamalube R.
Bahaha your telling me! I run it in my weed eater and 2 stroke tiller!

[barnett468]

I was out of premix that I normally use, so I bought Valvoline 2-stroke oil since I didn't want to wait for my other oil to arrive.Hello nachop;

I don’t know what your other oil is but in case you didn’t know, one should not switch back and forth between synthetic and non synthetic oil when used for mixing with fuel to run a 2 stroke.





I mixed it to spec which is 20:1 for my 85 ATC250R. It seems WAY too rich. If anybody has used this oil before, what is a safe more diluted ratio to use. Thanks.I have never used that oil and doubt that many here have that might see your post, so I simply posted some general oil info that I thought might be interesting and hopefully somewhat helpful.

As far as that oil goes, if you are just doing general trail riding and not going Bonzai at WOT, a ratio of 28:1 [32:1 max] is fine for your particular engine imo, however, if you do ride WOT all the time, I suggest running 20:1.

What is your current oil and mix ratio?




OIL MIX RATIO – Irregardless of many oil mfg’s claims, oil should typically be mixed at around 32:1 for a bike that will see occasional max rpms of around 5000. For bikes that see occasional rpms of around 8000, a mix of 20:1 is optimum. This is due to the fact that the higher an engines rpm, the faster the oil “passes” through the engine.

You WILL read anecdotal “proof” of people saying they have run their particular brand of "super special" rehydrolized osterated 2 stroke oil with prefabulated amulite and super nano thingamajigys at 10,000:1 in their 900 cc single cylinder stroker engine at 50 million rpm. I suggest you take these claims with a “shovel full of salt” as a good friend of mine says.

http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-laughing025.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys.php)





If anybody has used this oil before, what is a safe more diluted ratio to use.
Go to 35:1 or 40:1.Have you ever used this oil?

If so, what bike/engine did you use it in at that ratio?

Did you race it or just cruise it?

If you have done none of the above, please explain what you base your ratio recommendations on.




OIL RATINGS – One of the original oil ratings for your bike is API-TC. If you see this it is fine to run. In general, any oil that does NOT say outboard or marine on the front or have a picture of a boat only, is fine to run. You CAN safely run outboard/marine 2 stroke oil in an emergency providing you run it at lower rpms.




OIL VS JETTING – Whenever switching oil brands and/or mix ratios, you should rejet your bike to maintain optimal performance and eliminate the potential for damage caused by incorrect jetting.




VALVOLINE 2 STROKE MOTORCYCLE OIL

Valvoline 2 Stroke Motorcycle Oil is actually a Sunoco Trademark. It is non synthetic, with no synthetic additives. It has a TCW-3 Certification [2 stroke boat engine oil] only. TCW-3 oils are “ashless”. Its formula is different than their TCW-3 rated outboard engine oil and is designed as a “multi purpose” oil.


SUNOCO OILS

http://www.sunocolubes.com/product/sunoco-2-cycle-engine-oil


Here's the link to the MSDS for Valvoline 2 Stroke Motorcycle Oil P/N 9993 which is on the Sunoco site and NOT on the Valvoline site even though it comes in a Valvoline bottle. Well ok. :crazy:

http://www.sunocolubes.com/sites/sunocolubes.com/files/sunoco_2-cycle_12_1_qt_0.pdf




NO WARRANTIES OR GUARANTEES EXPRESSED OR IMPLIED WITH THIS POST.

http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-laughing013.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys.php)



Here's my avatar. I named her Bacon. Isn’t she cute?

Hi, my name is Bacon Aren't I cute.

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTDheK_NT7A9cIdJnV_1Pg7lGbLDWNu5 AVQnY60FToKElt_Wip72n1nHA

[rg97]

In simple terms, heres what mike (barnett) said:
Run 20:1 if your bike will ever see wide-open throttle.
Run 32:1 if you cruise.

He did not ask what kind of riding you (nachop) do. That will help us determine. 40:1 is a bit lean and will have little to no effect, other than a minor gain in performance. Between 35:1 (my recommendation) and 32:1 (his recommendation) there is not really much of a difference. Both provide adequate lubrication.
The lowest I would ever run is 25:1, but you dont have to listen to me. Listen to the "head engineer" :lol:

[DohcBikes]

Dramatically changing the mix ratio is not a good idea tuning wise. Going from 20:1 to 40:1 will certainly affect the engine.

[ezmoney1979]

There is some bad information being passed in here like every two stroke oil thread.
OP- get rid of the Wal-Mart valvoline and buy some quality high performance oil like 927, Golden Spectro, etc. Mix it at 32:1, jet it to that ratio and enjoy your machine. Do not change oils or ratios after that.

[rg97]

Aaand the bad information is...?
Mike recommended 20-32:1. I said 35:1. You said 32:1.
Its a no-brainer that there is better oil. But sometimes you have to use what you have.
If it is rich now, it will need tuning anyways whether you leave it at 20 or go to 32 or 35.

[barnett468]

Clarification of comment below.

OIL RATINGS – One of the original oil ratings for your bike is API-TC. If you see this it is fine to run. In general, any oil that does NOT say outboard or marine on the front or have a picture of a boat only, is fine to run. You CAN safely run outboard/marine 2 stroke oil in an emergency providing you run it at lower rpms.Hello nachop;


As you are aware, not all oils are created equal, even though you did not ask for recommendations on which oil to run, below is a brief list of common high quality oils in addition to the ones posted by ezymoney.

Maxima 927 [from ezmoney post], 40% castor oil and synthetic blend may separate in temps below 35 degrees f. Recommended for higher rpm apps like racing.

Maxima Super M, low ash, std oil and synthetic blend.

Klotz Super Techniplate, 20% castor oil and synthetic blend. Contact for potential separation info.





In simple terms, heres what mike (barnett) said:
Run 20:1 if your bike will ever see wide-open throttle.
Run 32:1 if you cruise.

He did not ask what kind of riding you (nachop) do. That will help us determine.My comment precludes the need to ask what type of riding nachop does. I’m going to give him the benefit of the doubt and assume that he can understand my comments along with the oil mfg's recommendations and decide for himself what might be best for him.




Post 2.

Go to 35:1 or 40:1.
Post 6.

40:1 is a bit lean…I’m sorry, I’m a bit confused. Can you please let him know which ratio you finally GUESS might be best for him now that you have read both my and DohcBikes posts? Remember, you can only pick one!





and will have little to no effect…Will have little to no affect on WHAT exactly?





other than a minor gain in performance.Where did you get this information?

Please post the links to any dyno tests supporting your claim.





Between 35:1 (my recommendation) and 32:1 (his recommendation)I did NOT recommend 32:1 to him AND the higher of your original recommendations is 40:1. Again, please make up your mind and just pick one.





Both provide adequate lubrication.Adequate lubrication for what EXACTLY?

Since you have conveniently failed to answer even ONE of the questions I asked you regarding this specific oil,AND you have no idea what type of riding he does or mods his bike has, imo, it seems reasonable to me that you have absolutely NO idea what ratio will “provide adequate lubrication” for his engine.





The lowest I would ever run is 25:1...Under which conditions would you switch from your 40:1 and 35:1 recommendations to your latest 25:1 recommendation?





but you dont have to listen to me.I not only consider that one of the most intelligent comments I have ever seen you make, I also doubt that you will need to worry about many people "listening" to you after reading your posts.

As nachop is well aware, Honda recommends a mix of 20:1, but don’t listen to them, what do they know?


I mixed it to spec which is 20:1 for my 85 ATC250R. I didn't want to take any chances which is why I mixed at 20:1.

Oil mix ratio suggested by Honda in the original owners manual on page 11.

http://www.atcmanuals.info/

http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-laughing025.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys.php)




Rg97 has recently stated on the site that he is 4 ½ years shy of legal drinking age [16 ½]. Imo, his recent posts below to me on the thread listed below, clearly reflect a pervasive, abrasive tone and suggest a level of maturity that is often found in children well below his age.


Barnett you should read before you post.

I did read, then posted some info that might be helpful to him.

Just because someone, including you, have been unable to find a part, does not mean that it does not exist and that others might not know where to find it.

LOL
Trololloolol
And he didnt even pick it up :rolleyes:

http://www.3wheelerworld.com/showthread.php/164547-oem-350x-connecting-rod-needed?highlight=rod

[barnett468]

POST ADDITION

Sorry nachop, I forgot my avatar photo.

Hi, I'm a cute little baby fur seal until hunting season starts in around 2 weeks.

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTPVl94GrqAajvACcWSWBuCH4Hr1ehM_ b2Mu35gKuNf00fTPAdNX-Dhgl4


I have no edit button.

[rg97]

I thought that you might try and be the bigger man, but that failed. Strange that someone about 40 years younger than you can do that, but you cant.

I'll answer your questions but if you were hoping for a rebuttal to dissect I dont have it.

http://www.3wheelerworld.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by rg97 http://www.3wheelerworld.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.3wheelerworld.com/showthread.php?p=1294595#post1294595)
and will have little to no effect…



Will have little to no affect on WHAT exactly?
Should have clarified that I was talking about engine life, because a lean condition will shorten life span. Before you ask, I have no data to back it up, but it should be common sense to people like you and I.

http://www.3wheelerworld.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by rg97 http://www.3wheelerworld.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.3wheelerworld.com/showthread.php?p=1294595#post1294595)
Both provide adequate lubrication.



Adequate lubrication for what EXACTLY?


Um well, The engine itself. The oil in the gas will cover the crank and rod bearings. 32 and 35:1 will both do that just fine.


http://www.3wheelerworld.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by rg97 http://www.3wheelerworld.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.3wheelerworld.com/showthread.php?p=1294595#post1294595)
The lowest I would ever run is 25:1...



Under which conditions would you switch from your 40:1 and 35:1 recommendations to your latest 25:1 recommendation?

It will depend on the type of bike. ATC250r's were performance machines that liked to run. RD's, Banshees, Zillas, CR480/500's and other two strokes, performance orientet or not, may all "like" to run a different ratio.

http://www.3wheelerworld.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by rg97 http://www.3wheelerworld.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.3wheelerworld.com/showthread.php?p=1294595#post1294595)
but you dont have to listen to me.



I not only consider that one of the most intelligent comments I have ever seen you make
Why thank you.
http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-laughing025.gif

****

The rest of your post was purely to show that what, people should not listen to a word I say? Your ad hominem (look it up) attempts dont phase me, and I could care less. Nobody is perfect, though some (not me) think that they are. You pull 2 out of over 1000 posts from myself (when I was in a very bad mood :lol:) and expect it to put me in a bad light. I'm surprised that you didnt put any of the PM's that members sent complimenting you.
If I were to try and do the same to you, it wouldnt work. Many times, moderators have REMOVED your posts because they were so childish and inappropriate that bans were about to be issued, so I cant quote them anymore.

****

ez, seeing as you are click happy of the "dislikes" button, feel free to do it here. You just dont like me!http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-laughing025.gif

[90guy]

My lord. Arguing on the intrwebs is just so stupid it's like hitting my head against the wall.

[nachop]

Wow! Look what I started! Anyway, thanks to all for the responses. Barnett, you really have me thinking and a bit confused. I ride trails and dunes and do ride wide open on occasion, but only for short periods of time. I bought my 85 250R, brand new, back in 1985. The first oil I used was Bel-Ray MC+1. I don't remember the ratio or size of the bottle, but it was one bottle to 5 gallons of gas which I think was 50:1. I am the only one who has ever been into the engine. When I did the first top end job, many years ago, I was surprised at how clean everything inside the engine was and how little carbon was on the piston. The bottom end required nothing. A mechanic friend of mine said that Golden Spectro was also a good oil, and that it was cheaper. I ordered a case and I gave it a try (1 bottle to 5 gallons). When I finally ran out of it, a friend of mine gave me several bottles of Amsoil Sabre that a machinest recommended to him (and again, 1 bottle to 5 gallons). I recently performed my ATC's second top end job and amazingly, nothing was required on the bottom end and everything else looked clean and in good condition. Here is my confusion. All 3 oils had different ratios, and I never had anything on the engine fail. If I had mixed these oils at 20:1, I probably would have covered the nation in smoke and fouled more plugs than I could count. How has my engine survived for this long if I have never mixed at 20:1? Obviously, I have not ridden my trike every day since I have owned it, but it HAS been ridden a lot.

[Mosh]

I own a 250r still on a stock crank and only 1 top end job. I have serviced quite a few that were still on stock cranks and top ends that were over twenty plus years and still running strong.

It is not uncommon for them to run that long. It is a Honda face it.

It is usually when people that are misinformed or poorly trained start modding them they become unreliable.

You are probably due for a clutch by now. Some free advice would be to pull the sidecovers and inspect your balancer bearing on the clutch side for play , and the crank bearings for up and down movement. The balancers usually get loose before anything and can cause all sorts of issues you may not be feeling or seeing. If those are good throw in some clucthes and new gaskets and keep going. Nothing beats stock reliability and components.

I won't get into the oil debate other than to advise , stay away from that Amsoil stuff. I have heard of more problems with that stuff than most and the 50-1 mixes are far too lean for my taste.

[barnett468]

OMG Look Dohc...MOSH "Disliked" the poor helpless sad looking little baby fur seal that is facing impending doom. He is OBVIOUSLY a poor helpless sad looking little baby fur seal facing impending doom HATER. Isn’t that terrible?

How could ANYONE be so cold and heartless as to not feel empathy when seeing this face?

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTPVl94GrqAajvACcWSWBuCH4Hr1ehM_ b2Mu35gKuNf00fTPAdNX-Dhgl4



Here’s a picture of Bacon, maybe he’ll like her better, let’s find out.

Hi Mr. MOSH, my name is Bacon. Aren't I cute?

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTDheK_NT7A9cIdJnV_1Pg7lGbLDWNu5 AVQnY60FToKElt_Wip72n1nHA


PS – Maybe if I click “Like” on his post he might have a change of heart. Maybe I should click “Thanked” too. I’ll try that and see what happens.

I have no edit button.

[DohcBikes]

Personally I love the baby seal. If the site had singled me out like they have you, and taken my ability to have an actual avatar for no apparrent reason, i would choose that EXACT avatar and include him in EVERY post.

One thing you can be sure of is that a properly trained technician will never recommend that anyone change oils and mixes as frequently as nachop describes he has.

Just because something doesn't blow your engine up, doesn't mean that's the right way to do it.

Just because something runs a long time with shade tree methods, doesn't mean it wouldn't have run longer using the correct methods.

ezmoney settled this in Post #8.

[barnett468]

Wow! Look what I started!

Barnett, you really have me thinking and a bit confused. I ride trails and dunes and do ride wide open on occasion, but only for short periods of time.

The first oil I used was Bel-Ray MC+1. I don't remember the ratio… …I think was 50:1. I am the only one who has ever been into the engine. When I did the first top end job, many years ago, I was surprised at how clean everything inside the engine was and how little carbon was on the piston. The bottom end required nothing. A mechanic friend of mine said that Golden Spectro was also a good oil… …I ordered a case and I gave it a try… When I finally ran out of it, a friend of mine gave me several bottles of Amsoil Sabre…

I recently performed my ATC's second top end job and amazingly, nothing was required on the bottom end and everything else looked clean and in good condition.

Here is my confusion. All 3 oils had different ratios, and I never had anything on the engine fail. If I had mixed these oils at 20:1, I probably would have covered the nation in smoke and fouled more plugs than I could count. How has my engine survived for this long if I have never mixed at 20:1? Obviously, I have not ridden my trike every day since I have owned it, but it HAS been ridden a lot.


Hello nachop;


I see you are new here, so first of all, we all welcome you to the Zoo. Secondly, yes, as you stated, any disruptions in the service are YOUR fault. This is simply because YOU are the one that started the thread, lol.

If you ever get bored, and need some entertainment, all you need to do is start a new topic asking any question about oil you desire, then simply sit back and watch the entertainment unfold. I doubt that anyone ever really gets mad at anyone other than possibly me here so I suggest you take anything you perceive as being that way, with a “shovel full of salt”.

Ok, now to your question. I am NOT a petrochemical engineer. Others here know a lot about oil but prefer to make short posts like the one ezmoney made whose opinion I value [as if it should matter what I think], whom, imo, basically gave you most of the info you need to know in around 3 short lines.

Your question is an xlnt one imo, and some of the answers to it have already been posted, such as oil migration etc.. Instead of making a long “filibuster” post as MOSH refers to some of mine as, I will mainly post some info which was written by a friend of mine that is knowledgeable on the subject.

One thing you might not find is that your bike is jetted to perform best between sea level and around 1000 feet elevation with a 20:1 ratio of the mfg’s recommended type of oil. It has been mentioned previously on your thread that changing ratios can affect jetting, however, different brands and types of oil mixed at the same ratio can have different affects on jetting also. Ok, confused now, because I am?

The sole purpose of 2 stroke oil is to lubricate the piston, cylinder and bearings etc., so why would someone want to run less than the mfg’s. recommended ratio? Also, contrary to rg97’s inaccurate claim, it has been shown in dyno tests, that up to a certain ratio, with proper jetting, MORE OIL actually INCREASES HP, not less oil. Some of these tests were performed by Graham Bell. In his tests, this ratio was around 16:1 using Castrol R. See the book the info came from in the link below.

http://books.google.com/books/about/2_stroke_Performance_Tuning.html?id=Ij593j28IP8C

The oil mfg’s. themselves are partially to blame for some confusion as to what ratio “should” be run. Back in the 70’s, there were fewer oils and 3 big name brands were Bel Ray MC1, Klotz std, and good ol’ Blendzall Castor Bean oil. I was sponsored by Bel Ray so that’ what I ran at around 32 1. I seized some pistons on it but I ran the Pro MX Motorcycle class and even the factory guy’s seized pistons. It’s just what happened back then when air cooled bikes were pushed that hard.

Oil is BIG, BIG, business, therefore, to sell oil, some mfg’s. like to imply that their oil will work in almost ANYTHING at almost ANY ratio. I think Bel Ray says you “can” mix anywhere from 20:1 to 80:1, but recommends around 32:1. Come on, please, really? Yes it is a fact that you could actually run it at 80:1 and leaner, however, it might not be prudent, and are the oil mfg’s. they going to foot the bill when your piston marry’s your cylinder for life? I think not, lol.



Below is info from Harry Klemm. See more info in the links at bottom.

LUBRICATION NEEDS - A two-stroke engine actually has two very different kinds of lubrication needs. The lower end crank and rod bearings prefer a slow drip of a very heavy viscosity oil, while the top end parts wear best with a deluge of a very lightweight oil. Since these are two very opposite lubrication needs, you have to choose whom you want to please. For most two-stroke owners, it’s a no brainer. You can buy 100 cranks and crank bearings that will all offer the same performance, but every owner wants to do whatever can be done to preserve a good running piston / cylinder set. Given all this, heavier premixes of lighter viscosity oils are more desirable to most owners.



PREMIX RATIOS VS OIL “MIGRATION” TIME VS ENGINE RPM - Oil Premix ratios are another subject that some folks tend to get emotional about … and like oil brand choice, our choices are about science and results…not emotion.

The objective of the premix ratio is to maintain a certain level of “oil-presence” in the engine interior during it’s average “operating-use” cycle. But how does one measure or assess the “oil-presence” … The most effective way has been with a radioactive additive. We explain below.

Trying to keep it simple…here is how it works. A test lab sets up an engine on a dyno stand, and begins feeding the engine a premix of an oil that has a specific level of mixed-in radioactive additive. As the engine is run, a Geiger counter at the exhaust exit measures the amount of radioactive material being eliminated. In this way, it is possible to factor the amount of radioactive material being put into the engine, verses the amount being sent out the exhaust. The net result is the amount of “oil-presence” inside the engine. In short, these tests showed that the oil-presence in the engine is a function of the operating rpm. That is, the “oil-presence" inside a two stroke drops significantly as the operating rpms increase. What this means is that an engine being run at 4000 rpm can maintain a very healthy and happy level of oil-presence with a 40:1 premix. However that exact same engine being run at 8000rpm needs to have a 20:1 premix to maintain the exact same level of oil-presence inside. This is why our 350 Bighorn road racers ran happily on the public roads on 40:1, but needed 20:1 for our sustained high rpm racing use. It bears noting that in both the 40:1 street and 20:1 racing situations, our Bighorns made no visible exhaust smoke at all, except when they were held at idle speeds for a long time.

A further example of this is shown in the carbureted two-stroke 951cc SeaDoo watercrafts of the early 2000s. In an effort to reduce the smoking during initial take-offs, SeaDoo engineers setup the oil injection systems to deliver no oil at all at idle speeds (and we mean zero oil). The logic was that at idle speeds there is virtually no oil migration at all. The high oil presence from the previous high speed runs was enough to allow the engine to run happily at idle for 10+ minutes with no oil at all being added…. And it worked great.

The lesson here is that your premix ratio should be a function of the average operating rpm that your vintage two stroke runs at. If you are at peak rpm all the time, 20:1 is a good idea. However for recreational level riders that don’t “scream” their engines constantly, leaner premixes will yield excellent long term wear.

An ounce of oil migrates much faster through a large displacement cylinder than a small displacement cylinder. In addition, oil migrates through any engine much faster at sustained high rpm, than at sustained low rpm.

To give this information some real world meaning, the engines that need the most oil in the premix would be large displacement singles being run at sustained peak rpm. The engines that would need the least amount of oil premix would be small displacement cylinders being run at very low rpms. However, as most of us know, most small displacement cylinders are revved very high, and most large displacement singles are revved very low, so they all tend to use the same range of premixes…. Until you go to the extremes.

We road race Kawasaki 350 Bighorn singles that we hold at 8000+rpm full time. We race on a 20:1 premix that produces no visible smoke at all while we race. We experience very little smoking because the oil is “migrating" through our 350cc engines at a very rapid rate. We ride the same 350cc Bighorns on the street using a 40:1 premix, and on that premix, the bikes never produce “any” visible smoke (but you can smell the bean oil we run).

While many H1 owners prefer to keep their oil injection, we dislike them for a few reasons. Firstly, despite the variable oil output of the injection system, there is no viable setting that generates acceptably low smoke levels under average street riding conditions. Secondly, when they fail, there is no warning other than a seized up engine. Lastly, we consider the oil fitting points to be potential air-leak risk points (if they loosen or break), and that was a risk we did not want to live with. To gain real control of our H1’s oil diet, we eliminated the oil injection and simply ran premix.

When we road raced our H1, we started out running 20:1 premix (like our Bighorns), and there was plenty of visible smoke coming from the pipes at all times. When we put the same H1 on the street with a 40:1 premix, it billowed smoke non-stop…especially during inner city riding. Why did our H1 billow clouds of smoke on exactly the same 40:1 mix that let our Bighorns run smokeless?? … The answer is Oil Migration.

Mechanically speaking, the H1 is not a 500. It is actually three 166cc singles. When we toured our H1 around town at 3000-5000 rpm, the oil migration time was extremely long, and so the oil needed for ample lubrication was very minimal. For all of our racing we used Maxima 927 Castor oil, and for all of our street riding we ran Maxima Super M for premix (the Super M is arguably the cleanest and least smoky of all premium grade oils).

We began to cut back our oil premix in an effort to get “acceptable” smoke levels during street riding. This meant no visible smoke while cruising at 3000-5000rpm, and only a minor “blue cloud” while doing “downshift acceleration passing”. We used a 60 mile loop of varying road conditions to do the evaluation. After numerous loop rides, these were our results.

SEE LINK AT BOTTOM FOR CHART

A Few More Notes on Oil and Exhaust Smoke - We had the privilege to speak by phone with Tony Nicosia about his early experiences with the H1. Tony was employed, by Kawasaki, to do much of the early testing of the H1s, and he is arguably one of the most successful Kaw triple drag racers of the 70’s. Tony quickly recalled the exhaust smoke difficulties he encountered. In the very early going of street testing, he received a ticket for excessive smoke from his H1 prototype test bike. His solution was to disconnect the oil injection pump cable (holding the pump in “idle” mode full time)….. and then added only one ounce of oil per gallon in premix along with that setting. Tony claimed that he made “all” of his drag racing passes with this oil setup. He also made numerous high speed road rides with the same mix …. Including a few peak speed runs from Barstow California to Las Vegas … 150miles (you could get away with that kind of stuff in 1970). These experiences speak volumes about how little oil the H1 can actually get by on.

We did a few weekend poker runs in our local area where we knew there would be no riding over 60mph, and lots of biker traffic that looked down on smoking 2strokes. For that, we routinely ran a 102:1 mix (5oz to 4gallons). The bike emitted virtually no visible smoke during “around town” riding, and only a tiny blue cloud during a few “downshift passing” spurts. Later teardown inspections showed all the internal parts to be looking very good with no visible “issues”.



OIL FILM STRENGTH VS PISTON SEIZURES - Many people believe that piston seizures occur when engine heat causes the piston to expand larger than the size of the cylinder bore.... but surprisingly this is not true.

If you could freeze your engine "in motion" in the middle of a long full throttle pass, and disassemble it for micrometer measurement, you would find the piston to measure at a .0005" to .001" press fit into the bore. That's right, a slight press fit! The reason that it doesn't seize is because the premix oil has such a terrific film strength that it acts as an irremovable buffer between the piston and the cylinder. That is, the bare metal surface of the piston never actually touches the bare metal surface of the cylinder because the oil stays between them. Many mechanics have experienced this phenomenon while cleaning a freshly bored cylinder in a solvent tank. Completely dry without any cleaning solvent, the piston moves through the bore with difficulty. However while rinsing a cylinder bore with cleaning solvent, the piston glides all the way through with no resistance at all. This is because the solvent acts as a film between the piston and cylinder.

A piston seizure can only occur when something burns or scrapes away the oil film that exists between the piston and the cylinder wall. Understanding this, it's not hard to see why oils with exceptionally high film strengths are very desirable, and why maintaining a proper oil-presence is also desirable. Good quality oils can provide a film that stands up to the most intense heat and the pressure loads of a modern high output engine. Here again, we mention that “absolutely no oil” has a stronger film strength than castor based oils.



100:1 PREMIX OILS - Since the 70’s there have been repeated advertising claims made by various oil brands claiming that their oils can offer suitable lubrication for competition two-stokes on a 100:1 or 80:1 premix. In many cases, these claims are “supported” by testimonials from various users. Despite the oil makers claims, and the sincerity of the testimonials … it’s not so. Running a 100:1 premix would be much like running only 2 quarts of oil in your truck, expecting that the quality of the oil can make up for the quantity …. It cannot….. no matter how good the film strength is “claimed” to be. The truth is, many two-stroke engines can “operate” on a 100:1 pre-mix so long as rpms are kept very low (as might be the case on a novice class open bike). But the first time that 100:1 engine makes an extended higher rpm run … it will lose the mathematics of oil migration, and score a piston. There is just no way around the math.


http://www.klemmvintage.com/oils.htm

http://www.klemmvintage.com/kaw500h1.htm

[DohcBikes]

^^^^^^^^^Now that's some good technical two stroke oil info right there.^^^^^^^^

Here's my favorite part....


When we road raced our H1, we started out running 20:1 premix (like our Bighorns), and there was plenty of visible smoke coming from the pipes at all times. When we put the same H1 on the street with a 40:1 premix, it billowed smoke non-stop…especially during inner city riding. Why did our H1 billow clouds of smoke on exactly the same 40:1 mix that let our Bighorns run smokeless?? … The answer is Oil Migration.

Its somewhere in the middle of a post that may be considered too long and technical for some to enjoy, so I didn't want anyone to miss that part!!

[nachop]

I own a 250r still on a stock crank and only 1 top end job.
You are probably due for a clutch by now..., stay away from that Amsoil stuff. I have heard of more problems with that stuff than most and the 50-1 mixes are far too lean for my taste.

I did not know they were so durable. I thought mine was special because of the way I took care of it, boo hoo. I did replace the clutch long ago. I was surprised about the Amsoil comment. Since the guy who recommended it to my is a machinest, I presumed that he knew what he was talking about since he sees a lot of motorcycle parts and uses the oil himself.

[nachop]

One thing you can be sure of is that a properly trained technician will never recommend that anyone change oils and mixes as frequently as nachop describes he has.



Three different types of oil in 29 years is "frequent"? The Valvoline was just to get me by until I can order my regular supply. After all the reading, however, I am not so sure I am going with Amsoil anymore.

[nachop]

Barnett,

Thanks for this amazingly informative post. This part really blew me away "MORE OIL actually INCREASES HP". I always believed the opposite. What I never considered was having to re-jet based on the ratio of the pre-mix. I guess I have been really lucky. I was under the impression that if you had dripping from the pipe (main jet too big), or heard pinging at wide open (main jet too small), or changes in elevation/temperature, then you needed to re-jet. I guess you never really are to old to learn something new. Looks like I will be looking for a new two-cycle oil like Maxima.

[bkm]

Take it for what its worth, but when I was a poor teenager back in the mid 90' all I wanted to was ride and ride cheaply. My fmf only piped 86 250r lived many many years very happily on Valvoline oil at 32:1. Is there better options, sure, but on an otherwise stock healthy machine, it will work just fine. I know because I've done it. I'm also not here to debate this oil vs. that oil.

[barnett468]

You pull 2 out of over 1000 posts from myself (when I was in a very bad mood ) and expect it to put me in a bad light.Your attempts to try and make others think these two incidents are the only ones that occurred are not gonna fly. Below are just a few others in addition to the 6 you made on this thread alone. I could spend all day copying your abrasive posts from threads if I wanted.


Just a few of MANY of your abrasive comments from other threads that you seem to have forgotten about.

PS fallguy666: Shut up

Have that one annoying person that you cant stand to read posts from? (thats you barnett)

Have that one I want barnett to post in this thread and dissect everything we have said. I need somthing funny to cheer up my sunday afternoon


One option to help preserve the peace and harmony of the site and other members, is if you have another “bad day”, as imo you frequently seem to, and want to take it out on me, you do so on a thread started by Mickey Dunlap with one moderators approval, that’s dedicated to the sole purpose of bashing me only. I have never replied to any of the 63 post on it and never plan to. There is also no lock on it and there never will be, so there is no need to feel that someday you might not be able to take out whatever it is you seem to like to take out on me and others.

Since imo, you don’t seem to be enamored with ezmoney or Fabiodriven either, I guess you might be able to start threads dedicated to bashing each of them also. If you do this, I do strongly recommend you do it in the open forum and NOT on this one because I have seen at least one member take some minor exception to threads posted in the “wrong” forum.

http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-laughing025.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys.php) http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-laughing025.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys.php) http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-laughing025.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys.php)


I have pasted the link to the thread below for your convenience.

http://www.3wheelerworld.com/showthread.php/163421-A-little-info-on-Barnett468-aka-Mike-Lilivig?highlight=mike




Here, maybe if you think of Bacon whenever you are in a “bad mood” as you put it, the thought of her might cheer you up.

Hi, rg97, my name is Bacon and I hope my cuteness cheers you up whenever you are in a “bad mood” so you don’t take out your “badness” on other people cause Mr Hat says that’s a not nice thing to do mmkay?

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTDheK_NT7A9cIdJnV_1Pg7lGbLDWNu5 AVQnY60FToKElt_Wip72n1nHA



PS

ad hominem
I did as you suggested and entered “ad hominim” into my calculator and it just stayed blank. Is there something else I need to add to it make it work?

http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-laughing025.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys.php)

[DohcBikes]

Three different types of oil in 29 years is "frequent"? The Valvoline was just to get me by until I can order my regular supply. After all the reading, however, I am not so sure I am going with Amsoil anymore.Well yes I suppose reading again you are right. No that is not extreme. Thanks for helping me see that.

Point being, I liked ez's post, Finding and sticking with one, quality oil is highly recommended, and there was some feeling that maybe others think its OK to switch it up whenever they find something they think will work better.

Never used amsoil, but I don't like the idea of how much marketing they seem to think it takes to sell a good product, so I steer clear.

[barnett468]

Barnett,
Thanks for this amazingly informative post. This part really blew me away "MORE OIL actually INCREASES HP". I always believed the opposite. What I never considered was having to re-jet based on the ratio of the pre-mix. I guess I have been really lucky. I was under the impression that if you had dripping from the pipe (main jet too big), or heard pinging at wide open (main jet too small), or changes in elevation/temperature, then you needed to re-jet. I guess you never really are to old to learn something new. Looks like I will be looking for a new two-cycle oil like Maxima.

No prob, you’re welcome.


OIL INCREASES HP – Yeah, the theory is that more oil reduces friction slightly and/or increases compression slightly but improving ring sealing. An extreme example is if you do a compression test on an engine with moderate [not excessive] ring blow by and put 3 squirts of oil from a squirt can in the cylinder, you can see the compression increase on a compression gauge. This is a common old school method of assisting in determining whether the rings are worn or a valve is bad.


OIL RATIO VS JETTING – Oh yeah, first of all, my guess that maybe around 90 percent of the bikes on here are not jetted perfectly and most are rich as opposed to lean so they can tolerate reducing the amount of oil to gas and still not be too lean. If they were jetted too lean, well they would simply have melted by now in which case you could go as lean as you wanted with the oil ratio simply because a non running bike doesn’t care what the ratio is.

This part is badly explaind and badly simplified but there ya go, lol. Imagine this, you are running 100:1 and are properly jetted, you then switch to 10:1. That’s a lot of oil and just a little gas right? Ok, in general your bike is designed to suck in a certain amount/volume of air or gas or water or ice cream etc..

As your engine turns over, it “sucks” that amount of air, mixed with gas, through the carb. The jets are a fixed size and will only flow a certain amount of fluid be it gas, oil or water. Well instead of flowing a mix with a lot of gas and just a little oil, you are now flowing a mix with a lot of oil and just a little gas. The amount/volume of mix flowing through the main jet actually does change just a hair but the big prob is the reduction of gas and increase of oil flowing through it is what causes it to be leaner in this particular example.


DETONATION – This one is kinda tricky. Detonation can NOT always be jetted out. It is also affected by the amount of ignition timing as well as obviously compression and octane rating etc..

A stock Tecate 3 will ping is bleepin brains out on a hot day. This is NOT really due to faulty engineering. Kawi wanted as much hp in that sucker as they could make with the mandatory spark arrestor/silencer. They could have retarded the timing and lowered the compression a hair to correct it, however after over I tested it for around 200 hours under extreme conditions with no engine failures running kawi 2 stroke oil at the recommended ratio and 93 octane gas, to their credit they decided to leave it as is, lol.

I tried to jet it out 6 ways to Sunday with a few different test carbs and nothing reduced the deto but the bike sure ran like cr_p, lol.

Harry Klemm gave me a cylinder head with a different squish angle to see it that would reduce the deto but nope.

The prototype also had no rev limiter and it revved to bleepin high for them so they gave me a rev limiter to test on it which is the same one that ended up on the bike.

Anyway, if you take the stock muffler off and install a straight through one and rejet it, it will haul a_s.



My Avatar.

Hi, I'm not a fur coat just yet!

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTPVl94GrqAajvACcWSWBuCH4Hr1ehM_ b2Mu35gKuNf00fTPAdNX-Dhgl4

[nachop]

Once again, thanks for the post Barnett. It was informative AND thought provoking. DohcBikes, I do agree with you and others about sticking to quality oil. Based on the condition of my piston, cylinder, head and other internal parts, I really do believe that MC+1, Golden Spectro, and Amsoil Sabre do a good job. I am always open to suggestions, especially from those who have seen the insides of their engines and the results of using a particular brand. I would never have used Amsoil had my friend not GIVEN me a butt load of it. I couldn't refuse free. In addition, the owner of the machine shop I mentioned earlier, recommended it and uses it in all of his 2-stokes. He does a lot of machine work on all types of motorcycle engines and gets to see what products are good and not so good (assuming they are used properly). He also asks his customers what products they use AND how they use them. It seems like the name Maxima has popped up in several discussions regarding 2-cycle oil. How many of you have used this oil, synthetic/non-synthetic, and what your results, condition of pistons, cylinders, etc.

[atc300r]

I use Amsoil Dominator in all three of my 250rs .I trail ride,drag race, flat track race and have done some mx practice works for me. Iv heard you shouldnt mixe synthetic oils .Iv also used Klotz great oil ,Maxima 927 great oil. For non-synthetic I use Castrol and Valvolene. When I do a topend rebuild or engine overhaul I run a tank of premix with non-sythetic oil and 91 octain non-ethol gas at 32/1 for breakin. I was told by the oldtimer tuners and engine builders not to use synthetic oil on breakin for any engine.After breakin I use Amsoil at 32/1. This is just me.Back in the 80s my Uncle ran his 250rs at 84/1 with Amsoil after breakin. He had a 82 ,2 83s and a 85 .He never had a problem. He bought all 4 trikes brand new.

[nachop]

atc300r,

Thanks for sharing this info. I have also heard NOT to use synthetic oil when breaking in ANY engine. The guys that race AND tear these things down have a lot to offer. They have seen what can happen using different pre-mix ratios and have seen what the internals look like when its time for a rebuild/repair.

[barnett468]

Once again, thanks for the post Barnett. It was informative AND thought provoking. I am always open to suggestions, especially from those who have seen the insides of their engines and the results of using a particular brand. I really do believe that MC+1, Golden Spectro, and Amsoil Sabre do a good job.
It seems like the name Maxima has popped up in several discussions regarding 2-cycle oil. How many of you have used this oil, synthetic/non-synthetic, and what your results, condition of pistons, cylinders, etc.

Hey, you are very welcome. I am happy to plagiarize Harry’s info whenever I think it might help someone and make me look smarter than I really am, lol.

The Klotz Super Techniplate I mentioned in a previous post is one you will find that a lot of people here use.


Here’s some more general info to possibly add to your confusion that I thought you might find interesting.

As we all know, some oils are better than others at resisting/reducing wear. Even though you have not had piston seizures and/or crank bearing failure with the oil you have been using and you have gotten what you determine to be good service life from your eng using these products, it does NOT mean that you would not have gotten even more service life had you used a higher quality oil. In other words, for example, instead of getting 200 hours on your piston with your current oil, you might have gotten 300 with a higher quality oil would have gotten twice the service life had you used different oil, you would not, however, providing you did not run any sand through your engine, you likely would have gotten some increase in service life.

I am not implying that the oils you used are bottom of the barrel junk, they are not. I am also not implying that you will get twice the service life if you use a “better” oil, because you won’t.



ANTI WEAR TEST - The following is a test of various oils anti wear capabilities. It is not the only test that is done on oils but it is extremely telling.

I looked at the MSDS for several of them including Mobil 1 and both the royal purple oils, and only found ZDDP in the Mobil 1. Which had 1100 ppm which is fairly high.

http://www.animegame.com/cars/Oil%20Tests.pdf


Regarding the much beloved Mobil 1

“It was outperformed by oils half the price and even by its semi-synthetic stablemate.”

http://www.animegame.com/cars/Oil%20Tests.pdf



FILM STRENGTH - There ARE oils that are FAR superior at resisting/reducing wear, however you simply cannot use them for your app. This is because they will likely quickly load up your spark plug if you run your engine for even a few minutes below around 4000 rpm and the mfg’s. of these types of oil tell people so, lol.

These are used for pro road racing where they see use at up to around 12,000 rpm’s. This is a case where the best oil is one that is the best for your app and NOT the oil that offers the most resistance to wear. Yes, it may seem to defy logic. One of these oils is Motul 800 full synthetic Road Race oil which costs around $20.00 per qt. ouch.

Motul 800 19.00 per qt.

http://www.amazon.com/Motul-Road-Racing-Factory-Line/dp/B000WMQ5D2


Just for fun, I posted one example of the abuse these high end oils are subjected to. If you have never seen a pro 2 stroke road race you should check this out. Wheelies down the straight at over 140 mph on 100 hp 500 cc bikes spinning 11,000 rpm.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7_WAeCe8oE



BREAK IN SYNTHETIC VS STD OIL

The following is for 4 cycle engines. Although there may be testing regarding this issue on a 2 stroke engine, I am unaware of any. It would seem logical that the same rule would follow and to some degree it possibly may, however, the amount of oil being delivered to the cylinder and piston etc. is far less than the amount than the amount delivered to these areas on a 4 stroke engine, therefore, imo, the concern and potential for slow or improper/incomplete ring sealing when using synthetic oil for break in is less, but again this is just an opinion.


Excerpt from Amsoil who only makes synthetic oil, telling people NOT to use their oil, lol. See full text in link below.

"Breaking in a new engine is one area that petroleum oil is better for than synthetics.

…we recommend you run the factory installed petroleum oil for about the first 500 miles.

…these are our recommendations based on engineering studies and our extensive knowledge of this topic."

http://www.synthetic-oil-tech.com/d.cgi/1124190/converting_to_amsoil.htm



From Harry Klemm.

SHORT TERM SET UPS FOR SHORT TERM BREAK IN - There are a number of engine builders who (for their own reasons) will set up the top end clearances of a high-performance two-stroke (piston & ring end-gap) considerably looser than factory spec. The most common reason for doing this is that the engine is prepared in a way that will cause very rapid wear to the piston and rings. Engines like this, often run very wide exhaust ports with very little radius for the rings. Such an engine would seriously wear the piston and rings before any break-in period could be completed, and so they are clearanced to go into immediate service with no real break-in at all.

In such engines, the loose piston clearances not only accelerate piston collapse and ring wear, but they also induce very heavy wear on the cylinder walls (especially around the exhaust port). While everything about this setup sounds short sighted and perishable (it’s both) there is an abundance of builders setting up engines in this way. At Klemm Vintage, we do not (and will not) build such an engine platform. Our engine sets are built for good long term wear and performance … and as such our setups “do” require break-in….. here is why.

A BIT OF HISTORY - In the early years of high performance two-strokes, most piston rings were a raw cast iron material that very literally had to “wear-in” to perfectly seal on the new cylinder bore it was fit to. With such rings, it often happened that “full ring sealing” didn’t take place until the ring had been in service for a good number of hours. Getting any racer to run the engine easy for that stretch of time just wasn’t going to happen. To help ease this problem, manufacturers applied a soft Teflon “skin” on the outside of the ring sealing surfaces. This soft Teflon skin “sealed” to the new bore in a much shorter amount of time, making for faster break-in and true “sealed” performance in a shorter amount of time. The down side was that when the Teflon wore completely away, the ring end-gap became excessive for “ideal” performance, and the ring tension against the bore was also not ideal. This was a particular performance problem on high-rpm small-bore racing setups.

Wise engine builders began setting up these top ends with “much closer than spec” piston clearances in an effort to get proper ring-end gaps when the Teflon skin wore completely off the rings…. And it worked great as long as you had an oil with a very high film strength. What didn’t work out great was that the break-in time required for such setups was much longer … and no pro-racer could be trusted to “go easy” on the engine for that long.

The solution was to simply let the engine run 60-90 minutes on a stand at a high idle, with a fan or breeze blowing across the fins. This initial run-in wears away the majority of the “skin” off the piston rings. In addition, it gives the cylinder bore and piston-skirts time to “get familiar” with each other in a “low load” atmosphere. This is a procedure that we still use (and strongly recommend) today. It bears noting that after this “static” break-in running, there is still some “loaded” break-in operation needed. However the risk of a piston-scoring event during that break-in ride is greatly reduced.



DRY TOP END ASSY - One step that helps reduce break-in times is to assemble the top end with no oil at all on the piston skirt or cylinder walls. This step has a history worth telling.

In the middle 1960s and early 1970s American muscle-cars were a very popular item on automotive showroom floors. At that time, it was standard procedure for Detroit manufactures to assemble all automotive engines with a generous helping of oil on the cylinder bores and pistons. When these muscle-cars were first fired up, the assembly oil on the bores would burn onto the bores as a glaze that took a very long time for the rings to wear through before sealing.

Unfortunately, this assembly process caused problems for salesmen in the showroom. When prospective buyers took a muscle-car out for a test drive, it was a given that there would be at least one full throttle blast involved. During that full throttle blast, the poorly sealing rings allowed considerable oil to pass, and the brand new muscle-car would leave a big plume of unattractive blue oil smoke that could be seen in the rear view mirror…. Buyers were understandably put off by anything that appeared to be “already burning oil”.

This was a very real problem that Detroit had to address. In time, they learned that if they assembled the top ends dry, with no oil on the bores or pistons, they could avoid this initial burned on cylinder glaze. The result was much shorter ring sealing times (because the rings didn’t have to wear through that glaze), and the absence of blue smoke from those important test drive blasts.

This same rule applies to two-strokes … vintage or not. Some owners shy away from this assembly process because they fear scoring the piston … but it is an unfounded fear. On such assemblies, we do apply assembly oil to all the lower end bearings. In the first moments of initial combustion, that lower end assembly-oil disperses on the bore in even quantities that are easily enough to avert any kind of scoring. In addition, it bears noting that the lubrication needs of an unloaded engine spinning at very low rpms are very minimal. We have been assembling high performance two-strokes in this way since the early 1970’s. It works … and it results in greatly reduced ring sealing / break-in times.

http://www.klemmvintage.com/breakin.htm


Hi guys, I'm still here! :w00t:

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTPVl94GrqAajvACcWSWBuCH4Hr1ehM_ b2Mu35gKuNf00fTPAdNX-Dhgl4