83 185s motor mods

[Honda_ATC]

Im looking to build the hell out of my 185s, its kind of a bucket list thing for me. I already have a stock 200s top end on it and id really like to get a lot more power from it. Ive been reading around on threats and craigslist looking at what other people have done along with what I have done in the past years. Personally I found that a good carb and head set up really brings them alive.

My questions are..

Has anyone bought Barnett clutches? Did you like them? how was the power delivery ? ect.

Has anyone bought a web cam? if so which one did you go with and how do you like it? did it make a big difference in power deilvery?

What type of exhaust system do you have? Is there any other good system besides DG?

What type of valves/springs/guides did you go with ? Is kibble white a good brand?

How well will the stock crank handle these mods ? Ive had a 185 with a 12:1 piston in it, the stock crank held up well for a few months then I sold it, and never found out how long it lasted

Im sorry if Im asking for a lot here but I really wanna make this a good build, so if you have any similar builds could you please provide a link to your thread, so I can read it over? Thanks everyone !

[shortline10]

I have some go fast parts give me a pm .

[ZacH_GrifF]

I put Barnett clutches in my 83 I like em so far. They give a nice engagement. As to compared to the cheap ones I don't know. I went from the original worn out straight to the Barnett set I also replaced the springs too.

[Honda_ATC]

If you don't mind me asking how much did you pay for the set up?

[rg97]

Web cam 89a is a nice upgrade. Not too hard on the engine that you need other mods along with it.
Keep your eye out for a supertrapp exhaust. As per the 200x, they are the best IMHO. The DG is obnoxious at best.

[Honda_ATC]

Thanks for the response, I've been talking to shortline10 about some parts and I've been thinking about the megacycle cam with 435 lift, seems to be the biggest wildest thing I can get in there, this motor will be used for ice racing so I'd like to have that edge. However, I do have another 83 185 I'd like to put the 89a in, when you did yours could you really feel the difference ? Thanks again

[rg97]

I saw noticeable gains in the mid and top end.
Now I have a stroker in there, and that gives me the bottom and extra mid I need for the ultimate ride.
Just be careful because with big lift cams that also means expensive add-ons. Webcamshafts site lists the following needed for a .435 cam:
Racing cam designed to take advantage of larger valves and the latest port flow technology. Requires Exhaust System, High Compression Piston, and Performance Valve Spring Kit. Check ALL clearances!

So you might think that the cam is cheap but look what else you'll need. Exhausts are hard to come by (good ones at least) and arent cheap ($150+)
High comp pistons are I think in that 100-150 range. Performance valve spring kits are $75, and larger valves require head machining and you can forget about the extreme porting that will need to be done.

[Honda_ATC]

Well to be honest my friend that built one and it did 67 with stock gearing and we have always been very competitive and I plan to blow him out of the water (with stock gearing) that was the whole point of the builds, make them pull the most power and top speed with stock gearing. I was planning to spend around $5-600 but if I can get a motor set up like yours with great low and top end with out massive porting I'd be just happy with that. Where did you get your stroker kit and did you get a thicker base gasket to increase the stroke length?

[rg97]

Strokers on these bikes are called squash-rod strokers. No plate needed. Not sure how familiar you are with them.
Heres how I explain it.
The crank pin is moved out 3mm so that you get 3 up and 3 down more. BUT, if you had 3 up extra, the piston would crash into the head/valves. So, they (powroll) heat up the con rod and squish it down 3mm. So, now the stroker goes up 3mm but the rod accounts for the 3mm and the piston goes into the same place at TDC. Now though, the piston is going 6mm further down than stock (3mm from crank, 3mm from rod). So, to fix that, they flycut the piston. The bottom of the piston is shaved so that it will clear the crank.
I have a 212cc stock bore stroked motor that started as a 192cc 200x motor. I'm not sure as to whether the same mods will work on the 185s. If the stroke on the 185s is the same but they just made it a smaller bore than you should be good to go in that direction. However, if Honda made the stroke shorter on the 185s, then the powroll stroker is not an option as far as I am concerned.
I got my stroker from Powroll Performance in Oregon. Look them up and call them if you're interested. Their customer service is an abomination, but if you call repeatedly ( I try once every hour) then you should be able to reach them and talk about a 185s motor stroker. A 200x stroker complete swap (you send them your crank, they modify it and send it back with new bearings and other things) will run about $500 just by itself.
You may also want to give Mickey of Four Stroke Tech a call (fourstroketech.net) and see what he says as far as mods for a 185s. Great guy.

[Honda_ATC]

Well I should mention that I have a 200 top end on a 185 lower end, and the stroke between the two must be the same, (the only reason i have a 185 lower end is because its all down for the shifting pattern I personally dont like shifting up lol.) How did you go from a 192cc to a 212?!?! The only piston I found anywhere near that big is a 204cc and thats really punched out! very nice 212x by the way!

EDIT I looked in my shop manual for 185 then the 200x both have the 57.8mm stroke

[rg97]

Stock bore and 6mm stroker = 212cc. You can push it to 218 using a 66mm bore but I did not.
It would be the cylinder that matters, not the top end. I'm sure that someone has specs on a 185s but I know that a 200x stock stroke is 57.8mm. Bore is 65.0mm
Thanks for the compliment, its all apart right now since I have another project going for it right now.

[rg97]

So I saw your edit and it looks like a stroker may work. By no means am I an expert on the 185s so you'll want to contact Powroll, Four Stroke Tech, or shortline10 like you have been doing and see what he/they say.

[Honda_ATC]

Sounds great thanks for all the contacts and the time !!

[Honda_ATC]

187530



For anyone who cares this is the trike that the mods are being done on

[RDH/86200X]

Nice bike. I may be building a 185s in the near future as I just completed my aftermarket front suspension. I also just had a 185s given to me I just need to go get it. Good luck on your build.

[barnett468]

Im looking to build the hell out of my 185s,I already have a stock 200s top end on it and id really like to get a lot more power from it.

my friend that built one and it did 67 with stock gearing and we have always been very competitive and I plan to blow him out of the water (with stock gearing) that was the whole point of the builds, make them pull the most power and top speed with stock gearing.Stroker kit [as rg97 suggested], high rpm cam, big carb and big head flow.

Do you know what mods your friend did?





if I can get a motor set up like yours with great low and top end with out massive porting I'd be just happy with that.Power “feel” is a subjective opinion. Actual power is best determined by a dyno. In general, you cannot increase power everywhere in an engine. You can have more power on the bottom, mid or top, therefore you need to determine which ONE is the most important to you.

In general, the bigger the cam, the more it raises the entire operating range of an engine. A big cam starts producing “power” later and quits later.

Increasing the displacement will net you the biggest overall increase in power imo. There is no replacement for displacement or nitrous, lol.





…this motor will be used for ice racing so I'd like to have that edge.What type of racing exactly ie., drag, long oval, short oval?

Do you use a wide or narrow powerband for this?





I've been talking to shortline10 about some parts and I've been thinking about the megacycle cam with 435 lift, seems to be the biggest wildest thing I can get in there…Just curious, why did you guys choose the mega cam over the web cam?


Megacycle states that their durations are taken at .040” lift. The web cam "duration"is taken at .050”, the ADVERTISED duration is likely taken at .006" or .015".

Since Megacycle only states one duration, and does not specify whether it is advertised duration or not, it seems difficult to compare all the differences between the two cams.

Since the lift is the same on both cams the other differences are lsa, overlap and possibly icl.

The mega cam has an lsa of 106 and the web is 109. Since you are looking for max top speed AND a wide power band, from what I can tell so far, the web cam with the 109 lobe center will work better for this purpose imo, however, if shortline10 has tested both these cams in the same set up back to back, I would go with his recommendation.


78-85 200X CAMS

Mega cycle p/n 143-40 143-40NS

Lift .435 dur @ .040" 272 lsa 106
In 30 btc/62 abc
Ex 62 bbc/30 atc .006"

Must cut cylinder head for lobe clearance. Use R/D 228-H



Web cams p/n 55-72

Lift 435/.395 adv dur 288/288 dur @ .050” 262/262 lsa 109


Intake Opens 22° Before TDC
Intake Closes 60° After BDC
Exhaust Opens 61° Before BDC
Exhaust Closes 21° After TDC

Check all clearances.




PARTS MATCHING - One important thing is to make it work together as a package, the gearing, compression, cam, ignition timing, head flow and carb etc. should All be matched to optimize performance of all the various parts.




COMPRESSION – This must be matched to the cam, the type of fuel you use and ignition timing. You need to calculate the DYNAMIC compression and cylinder cranking pressure to determine what is beat. The STATIC compression will NOT tell you this, it is only a rough indicator. You must account for elevation when calculating this also because you lose around 4 3/4 - 5 psi of cylinder pressure for every 1000 foot increase in elevation above sea level.




EXHAUST - In general, an exhaust with a straight through muffler provide the most top end. Supertrap makes both types of muffler/silencer. Some tracks have noise level restrictions. A straight through Supertrap might net pass.




ADJUSTABLE CAM GEAR - Once your build is running, if you decide you want a bit more top and less bottom or vise versa, you can change the cam timing with an adjustable timing gear. Web or mega may sell them. 8 degrees is the recommended max, 4 is a preferred max. Check valve to piston clearances after wards before running.

More adv = more rpm less bottom end.

Less adv = less rpm, more bottom end.




As rg97 suggested, shortline10 and four stroke tech are good sources of info.

:beer

[RDH/86200X]

Barnett I think that's a new record for you.

[Honda_ATC]

Thank you I'll be started a new thread as soon as I start this project

[Honda_ATC]

I know for a fact he just put a 12:1 in it and ran aviation fuel, that was the only mods the rest was stock, the racing I do is mainly tight corners and limited straight aways. If I can make massive low to mid range I'd be very happy with that. The only reason I said megacycle cam is because I can get one new for 120 but I'm more then willing to shell out the 140+ for the web cam. So over all I'm looking for massive low to mid range power. So maybe the 89 from web cam, 12:1 wisco and rebuild the head with stronger valve springs and bigger valves ?

[barnett468]

I know for a fact he just put a 12:1 in it and ran aviation fuel, that was the only mods the rest was stock...You mean his pipe and carb were also stock?





the racing I do is mainly tight corners and limited straight aways. If I can make massive low to mid range I'd be very happy with that. So over all I'm looking for massive low to mid range power. So maybe the 89 from web cam, 12:1 wisco and rebuild the head with stronger valve springs and bigger valves ?You need to cc your head. Tell us what it is and we can calculate your dynamic comp etc based on cam choice and if you bore or stroke it etc.

You don’t want too much compression and you don’t want too little.

I do not know if your 200 head has bigger valves than a 185. i can look but shortline10 will know. it is VERY easy to "overport" a motorcycle cylinder head. too much and it will LOSE power.

What fuel are you going to use. Race gas has more btu [power] than av gas. E85 is around 105 octane because it burns like c__p.

What cam and set up were you running before at the races?

IMO, the cam rg97 suggested is probably a good choice for you. I’ll check out the others also. Shortline10 should have some ideas too. You can run the .435 lift cam but you need to gear your bike for it. I think it is a bit of overkill for your app though.

As mentioned, you will be very happy with a few more cubes in your engine.

[Honda_ATC]

I'm thinking your right with the rg97 cam, on the 185 of my friends the carb was stock with a stock header and slip on fmf pipe, I'm running the same exhaust set up as he has. As for the cc's of the head I'm not sure of right now I tried looking around and couldn't find any information on it. (So just to be clear, my current set up is a 185s lower end, stock 200 head cam piston cylinder, and carb all from a 200) I'd like that huge cam in it but I think there just too much moding to make it fit for me

[DohcBikes]

Have you actually ever tuned a four stroke for performance? If so what engine and how did you conclude the statement above to be true?El I don't know what to say to this but damn man.

All that good technical info he provided to the o.p. in nothing more than an attempt to help him and you find one general statement to complain about? Do you have anything to add or an explanation as to why you think the statement is false? Or did you just join the thread to start trouble?

If you think the statement is wrong, then why don't you just tell us why? Then we could be having a proper, mature technical debate.

How do you expect him to respond to a question when you word it like that?

I could a sent this to you in a pm El, but so could you have sent Barnett one. There's a lot of good info here and I'd hate to see another great thread destroyed by you two going back and forth over a single statement that will likely NEVER affect the o.p. at all.

Reading the post in its entirety, it looks like some cut and paste may have been screwed up, but that's just a guess. In that case, it was a simple mistake that can not be corrected if someone does not have an edit button, which we are ALL aware that Barnett does not have. Im an idiot, I don't know what I would do without mine.

My apologies to Honda_ATC

Ill delete this message in a few hours. I appreciate you El but this is getting so old.

[DohcBikes]

One mistake does not a moron make.

The o.p. should take every bit of secondhand info that he reads from the internet with a shovel of salt.;)

See the thing is that it was a simple mistake, one that I'm sure he knows he made by now. We all do it.

I appreciate you taking the time to explain.:)

[barnett468]

POST CORRECTION

Hello HONDA_ATC;


Sorry, I just saw some replies to your post when I looked at them I noticed an noticed an error in mine. I apologize for the mistake.

More adv = more rpm less bottom end.

Less adv = less rpm, more bottom end.

Should read:

Retarding the cam timing = more peak rpm and less bottom end.

Advancing the cam timing = less peak rpm and more bottom end.

The statement is abbreviated and could be explained in further detail.



As evidenced by the quote below which is just one of the many comments I have made on the site regarding the affects of cam timing it should be clear that my comment above was simply a typing/cut and paste error as DohcBikes so perceptively guessed.

Post 26 posted on 2-16-2014 from link below.

ENGINE POWER - If it does have a huge cam and you prefer your power to come in a little sooner, you can change the gear ratio and/or buy a very cool adjustable cam sprocket/gear and advance the cam around 4 - 6 degrees. WEBCAMSHAFTS should have them.

http://www.3wheelerworld.com/showthread.php/165140-An-uninteresting-200x-thread/page2?highlight=adjustable+cam+gear





El I don't know what to say to this but damn man.

All that good technical info he provided to the o.p. in nothing more than an attempt to help him…

Reading the post in its entirety, it looks like some cut and paste may have been screwed up, but that's just a guess. In that case, it was a simple mistake that can not be corrected if someone does not have an edit button, which we are ALL aware that Barnett does not have. Im an idiot, I don't know what I would do without mine.

[barnett468]

POST CORRECTION FOR POST 26.


"I noticed an noticed an error in mine." should be, "I noticed an error in mine."


I hAve no edit button.

[Honda_ATC]

Well at any rate here, so were all on the same page. A 12:1 an rg97 cam and a bore should suite my needs ??

[rg97]

Retarding the cam timing = more peak rpm and less bottom end.

Advancing the cam timing = less peak rpm and more bottom end.

This is what barnett said. Contradicts what you just said.
But anyways.
If you want to throw a 435 lift cam in there then more power to ya. Your reliability and maintenance is pretty much going to go down the drain. Theres only so much you can get out of these engines and thats pushing it.
A better setup IMHO (but more expensive though) is a stroker crank with a wiseco high comp piston with a WEB 89a and larger valves (+1mm) with a ported intake and exhaust.

[barnett468]

I'm thinking your right with the rg97 cam, on the 185 of my friends the carb was stock with a stock header and slip on fmf pipe, I'm running the same exhaust set up as he has. As for the cc's of the head I'm not sure of right now I tried looking around and couldn't find any information on it. (So just to be clear, my current set up is a 185s lower end, stock 200 head cam piston cylinder, and carb all from a 200) I'd like that huge cam in it but I think there just too much moding to make it fit for meHello HONDA_ATC;

You need to physically measure the volume of the combustion chamber, they can vary slightly. As mentioned, shortline10 or four stroke tek might have this info but it should still be measured.

You have a 200 top end and carb and your friends bike is faster than yours?

Out of curiosity, you might want to do a compression test with the throttle wide open.



DohcBikes;

Wow I missed the new action. This is better than watchin reruns of Bevis and B__thead!

I was posting in the window prior to post 24 so I didn’t see it or the ones after until I hit the send button. Looks like I was given a whole 60 minutes to respond before I was tried, convicted and SALTED! :lol:

FYI –The American Medical Association AND Mr. Mackey both say that salt is bad for you, mmkay!

:beer

[barnett468]

Well at any rate here, so were all on the same page. A 12:1 an rg97 cam and a bore should suite my needs ??Hello HONDA_ATC;

The cam you are referring to is a Web Cams part number 89a as rg97 has mentioned a few times now. Too many numbers can make it confusing, lol.

It’s also been mentioned a few times that either a big bore or a stroker will give you lots of power.

It’s very hard for us to determine exactly what will be enough power to make you happy. As rg97 implied, big power costs relatively big bucks.

You also cannot run an engine with “high” compression on 87 octane gas and you have yet to tell us what octane and type of gas/fuel you plan on using. Typical 110 - 112 race gas is around $12.00 a gallon or more.

Have you ridden your friends bike?

If your bike is just a little faster than his bike will that be fast enough for you?

You also haven't mentioned what your previous race set up was.


If you have the money, I suggest you do what rg97 suggests.

[Honda_ATC]

Yes top end it's faster then mine how ever he has a 12:1 piston in a 185 bore. It's a hell of a job trying to get it to pull over but top end it beats mine, we both have the same gearing. I'm personally looking to get the most out of this engine with out having to mod a 435 cam to fit. If I didn't have to mod the head so much I would for sure put that cam in it I will try to figure out the cc of the head as soon as I rip the motor down

[Honda_ATC]

All I had before was a stock 185. I put a 200s top end on the 185 lower end to freshen it up and give it a little more juice and his trike it's faster then mine on top end but it seems mine runs out of steam and he smokes me like I said same gearing same lower end different pistons

[barnett468]

hello;

well if that 200 head has a bigger combustion chamber than a 185, you have less compression than a std 185. low compression = low power. if the 200 cam you are running has a longer advertised duration than the 185 cam, it is likely that it has a later intake valve closing time which depending upon the cam overlap and other factors might lower compression also. this is one of the reasons i suggested you do a compression test.

we still have no idea what type of fuel you plan to use.

[Honda_ATC]

Trust me I would put a 435 in it if there wasn't so much modification to the head. But I'm going to do the set up your talking about with the stroker, web cam and piston. I will how ever build a second motor with the 435 cam in it as well as soon as I get this motor done. Thank you all for your help !

[barnett468]

ok cool you have a plan. the carb might be a bit small but don't let that stop what you plan to do. carbs are not that much.

PS - Your plan is actually what rg97 sugested, i just mentioned it again.

[shortline10]

To mod the head for a 435 lift cam will take less than 5 minuets with a dermal tool lol , very simple .
To get the best of both worlds meaning gobs of bottom end power and unlimited top end power when needed I like the megacycle 435 in combination with your choice of high compression piston over 11.1 . The high compression will make the bottom end power . Their is no stroker crank available for the auto motors unless you find something used from the 1980s and their just stupid rare .
I am not a big fan of web cams and was never impressed with their power delivery .






Trust me I would put a 435 in it if there wasn't so much modification to the head. But I'm going to do the set up your talking about with the stroker, web cam and piston. I will how ever build a second motor with the 435 cam in it as well as soon as I get this motor done. Thank you all for your help !

[rg97]

Thats what I was worried about. I didnt know how the ends of the cranks were on the auto bottom ends. In that case the 435 lift with a high comp piston, a porting job, and other recommended things (exhaust (are they even made anymore for a 185s??) and springs and retainers and maybe larger valves) would be the best

[Honda_ATC]

Ok well I'm glad I don't need to drop $500 just on the crank because if that was an option I would have in a heart beat, but I am glad I can put a monster cam in it pretty simply, how ever will the stock rocker arms work with that cam?

[Honda_ATC]

DG makes a system how ever I'm not a fan of them. I brought the header pipe to a friends machine shop and he's going to build a custom header (just make one with a bigger pipe) and keep my stock fmf slip on pipe on it

[DohcBikes]

an rg97 cam

This put a smile on my face and also sounds legit.

Adult beverage induced posting. It happens folks.

[barnett468]

DG makes a system how ever I'm not a fan of them. I brought the header pipe to a friends machine shop and he's going to build a custom header (just make one with a bigger pipe) and keep my stock fmf slip on pipe on itHello HONDA_ATC;

FYI, if you have a larger header pipe made but it has to neck down to a smaller diameter/size to fit the muffler, you will not really gain anything. For example, if your current pipe AND muffler are the same size and you install a larger header but not a larger muffler you will not gain much. You can have a 2" header but if the muffler is 1", it will not flow anymore air than the 1" pipe allows.

I've done this type of testing before and we actually did this type of testing on the Kawi "Mule" just before it was released. Its top speed was supposed to be limited to around 35 mph for safety reasons. Well for some reason it did around 55 and almost spun the tires from a dead stop when floored, lol.

Kawi could not release it that way so they needed a quick easy fix. Well the guy that was assigned to fixing it simply welded a washer to the end of the muffler that had a hole about 1/2 the diameter of the ex outlet pipe. Well it now did right around 35 mph and no longer lurched off the line. It had a cv carb and still ran smoothly with no burbles or hesitations. I don't recall any overheating issues either. We all thought it was hilarious.

Exhaust systems are actually extremely complicated the way they work.

PS - If you have an 86/87 Tecate 3 and you replace the stock muffler/silencer with a straight thru type, it will haul bleepin a_s!

Man, I sure hope I don't get salted again! :lol:




"an rg97 cam". This put a smile on my face and also sounds legit.Yeah, and it sounds meaner than a 89a or whatever.

rg = race grind

97 = 97 horsepower guaranteed

[barnett468]

Ok well I'm glad I don't need to drop $500 just on the crank because if that was an option I would have in a heart beat, but I am glad I can put a monster cam in it pretty simply, how ever will the stock rocker arms work with that cam?Hello HONDA_ATC;

Back in 1976, Fishburn Machine made a 500 cc stroker out of an XL350 engine for a desert racer that Norm Reeves Honda sponsored. There were no kit parts available then.

If you have the money anything can be done. You can have your crank stroked by several places. Below is the link to just two. It wouldn't hurt to call them and get pricing.

http://thumperracing.net/index.php?route=product/category&path=72_263

http://www.competitivecrankshafts.com/index.php



I’ve had many custom pistons made at the first link below.

https://www.jepistons.com/

http://www.rosspistons.com/

[rg97]

an rg97 camThis put a smile on my face and also sounds legit.

Adult beverage induced posting. It happens folks.

Why not give WEB a call and see if it exists? ;)
I looked it up, RG like barnett said = Race Grind...

But as for the 97, thats the lift. .970 intake lift. Over double what the .435 megacycle is.

[Honda_ATC]

I'm gonna call around and ask for sure I think it would be very cool to have one of the only 185 strokers !

[Honda_ATC]

Does a thread exist that shows how to mod the head to fit that cam??

[Honda_ATC]

This put a smile on my face and also sounds legit.

Adult beverage induced posting. It happens folks.

This is what happens when I'm running on 3 hours of sleep and on 3ww on my phone. :TrikesOwn

[shortline10]

Set the cam with large washer in the head with the valve cover removed . Rotate the cam and look were it rubs in the valley and give it some clearance . Like I said very simple .



Does a thread exist that shows how to mod the head to fit that cam??