An uninteresting 200x thread

[redsox]

I've searched the site, and there is an abundance of info on the 200x. Everything you'd ever wanna know. So, perhaps the questions that arise may have been asked an answered. Oh well. If it upsets you, move on the to next thread. Lots of drama on here lately, and, in the words of Sweet Brown, "Ain't nobody got time fo' dat!" I'm posting to learn, share some info, and lastly because i think a thread will motivate me a bit to get through the job.
here is the back story. About two years ago, i picked up an 85 200x. It ran good, but she had been ridden hard and put away wet. just about everything on the wheeler was used up, abused, and in need of repair. The thing would smoke like nana at foxwoods on start up. Then it'd even out, and wasn't too bad. little puffs here and there if you hammered the motor and made her work, but didn't appear to be what you'd notice from a "traditionally" smoked top end. I thought it was a valve seal issue. Also of note, and most important for this thread, the thing RIPPED. it was fast. I had no history on the trike and I had no way of knowing what had been done. Also, i'd never had another 200x, so a stock to stock comparison was not an option. It walked away from a 200es, and took a 250es, and 2 250sx's. (all stock) I suspect that the sx's may have caught up and passed if we had the running room, but i cant say for sure. Anyway, the x went good. Like i said before, everything on her was pretty roached. especially the rear bearings. tried to get one NH ride out of it last year and the bearings let go. paperweight. it was decision time for the little x. it was an overall basket case and the decision was to shelf it in lieu of other interests and projects.
Flash forward a few months. A guy i ride with has his second kid and decides to thin his trike heard from 3 down to one. he's selling his 86 250r and his 85 200x and keeping his big red. i should have bought the r, and didn't. i bought the 200x. i got a great deal on it and it was in good shape. needed pads, which i did right away. also, the kicker was wearing out. if you're familiar with these engines, you know this is common, and splitting the cases is in your future. I knew i had the other engine, with good bottom end, so i was happy. took her on a few rides, hellhole, jericho MT, etc. etc. and everything was good. x#2 was not as fast as x#1. that was clear. it was, however, in good shape, reliable, and a decent survivor for an 85. then the problems began.
the kicker problem was getting ever worse. early this year we took it to NH for the Super Dave Stunt Spectacular. It would start easy, and idle. as soon as it was warm, and you shut it off, you had to bump-start it to get it to run again. it wouldn't kick. if it sat and cooled, it'd kick over. it was weird. Then one day on a ride in walpole, it died. wouldn't start again. home to the shop with a weird, what i'll call, "intermittent" spark that seemed out of time. this is what i found.

186914186915186916186917



the pin that holds the cdi into the cam had come loose. a small piece of the cam had broken off (it was stuck to the magnet). when i pulled the cdi, the pin and the rest of the broken cam came out in my hand.

I had the other engine, so I swapped cams and CDI's and we were up and running again. (i didn't check closely to see if the cams were identical, but they seemed to be - more to come on this)

x#2 was running fine, but it still had the lingering kick start shaft problem. the cold/bump start issue had been resolved with the cdi/cam problem. i think the reduced throw of the kicker, combined with the loose pin in the cam, wasn't generating the centrifugal force needed to advance the cdi and get the spark right. thats why the bump-start always worked. does that make sense? even if it does, that doesn't reconcile the cold start/warm start issue, which was also solved with the swap. i cant make sense of it.

i'm snowed in this weekend, so i thought i'd deal with 200x #1. i've been thinking of doing an auto-x build for the bride somewhere down the road. i stripped it down almost to the frame. i still need to press out the swing arm bolt and get the shock off. but i took the engine out and dug into it a bit. interesting stuff.

186907

i popped the head off and immediately noticed a large gouge in the cylinder wall.

186908186909186910186911186912186913

three little pieces of the snap ring that holds the wrist pin in place broke off and were trapped between the rings. ate up the wall and the side of the piston pretty good. the piston is/was a ProX. i've never heard of them, but i don't get out much. the crank and connecting rod seem good, as does the head, valves, and spings. i haven't measured anything, and i don't know it the engine was bored, or what other mods were done other than the piston. i would think that there are other upgrades. now, on to the real question. If i take the lower end from this engine, and swap the cylinder, piston, and head from the other engine, with a new tusk gasket kit, am i ok? remember, the cam in the other head was originally in this engine, so, it may not be stock. is that an issue? i'm not looking to win any races, i'd just like a nice reliable machine with not much more of an investment. if this engine has an upgraded crank, how can i tell without splitting the cases? will the throw be off if i go back to the stock head? are these questions making sense? in the interest of full disclosure, this is pretty deep in one of these engines for me. i've dabbled before, but this is new ground. i've rebuilt snowblower/lawnmower engines a bunch, but this is a bit different. any and all advise welcome. thanks for reading. sorry for the sideways pics. i'm left handed.

[rg97]

If it had an upgraded crank (a stroker) then the rod would be shortened and the bottom of the piston would have been cut. Considering your pictures the piston, The crank is stock.

[atc007]

Yep,throw the good top end on the good bottom. Your real question being,,is the good runner stroked? Highly unlikely. Measure both engines to certify the crank is the same height. I Always would HIGHLY recommend a hone and fresh rings. Then you are good to go for a long time. I can't say I've ever seen a Honda of any flavor do that with the pin! Very interesting. Post any questions,keep up the good work.

[redsox]

thanks boys. appreciate the input. if i am taking the piston/cylinder/head combo off the runner, should i still hone and get fresh rings? is the thinking that i might as well while I'm in there? makes sense, i guess. how do i determine what rings to get? i suppose i'll be able to tell if its been done once i get in there. who do i get the rings from? honda still sell them?

[rg97]

If you can I would make sure the bore and piston are all in spec and get a wiseco. If you want to keep the stock piston and it is good shape, yes hone the cylinder and see if you can still get rings from your local shop. If not there then head to Ebay. There are NOD kits cheap on there all the time.

[fabiodriven]

Yep, it's one of those "while you're there" kind of things. It would be silly not to hone and ring it. You have to take it apart and see what kind and size of piston you have, then go from there. I'd just be guessing, but I bet Honda still has rings for their pistons. There have been so many 200cc Honda trikes, bikes, and quads made for such a long time.

Posting at the same time here, but I'd personally take an OEM piston over a Wiseco any day.

[redsox]

"Posting at the same time here, but I'd personally take an OEM piston over a Wiseco any day."

why is that? and to reiterate, reliable, long term durability is the goal here.

[DohcBikes]

Reliable long term=OEM.

[atc007]

The piston will be marked on top. A arrow with NO numers will be stock,otherwise it will be stamped with a #,25,50 etc. Either way,you will have the bore of your cylinder measured,that wll dictate the size piston you will use. Then IF the piston in it is still the right size. You will inspect that ,,especially the intake side,for deeper scratches or any cracks. IF all checks out,you get away with rings. For really long term. I would def pop for a new piston and rings. I am assuming here,,most of the pistons on ebay will be sudco or shindy. Both are oe type pistons. And will be the cheapest way out. this will ensure you don't chunk a piston after doing all this work. And you will still be south of $150 w all your parts. You should do a valve job while you're in there too. again,just a good option. We know it runs. but if it has a sharp valve,it won't be long for this world. Only way to know is to look :) Then put new valve seals in and you are good to go. You will also want to clean the wonderful Honda designed oil spinner /strainer in the crankcase. You will need a special tool for that.

[redsox]

good info all around. thanks. its obama day tomorrow so i should be able to crack into the running engine. i'll have a good idea what i'm dealing with then. i'll post a few updates and then make a decision on what piston to use/buy.

[fabiodriven]

I have a friend who's a very talented machinist, well two actually if you include Steve as well, but this other guy does boring and sleeving. My first job was working for him in high school. He told me OEM is the way to go and that's all I needed to hear.

[Mudduck]

i have a parts machine 85 200x f/s if any interest i'm in rhode island 1hour south of you

[fabiodriven]

Actually, where you're talking about this thing being snotty you may want to make sure you don't have a high compression piston.

[redsox]

Actually, where you're talking about this thing being snotty you may want to make sure you don't have a high compression piston.

well, thats sort of the whole question. i'm fairly certain that it will be a completely stock top end going onto this thing. i'll know for sure tomorrow. is there anything i need to watch out for in terms of bottom end mods that may or may not screw me up? also, i'm leaning oem until i hear a good argument otherwise.

[redsox]

i have a parts machine 85 200x f/s if any interest i'm in rhode island 1hour south of you

thanks man. i'm pretty set for now. i'll keep you in mind. you should check out the new england ride thread and come rip sometime.

[rg97]

If that circlip let go on the old top end, it's floating around in the bottom end somewhere. Have you checked/replaced the oil?

[jays375]

Check your clearance on the piston and ring gap.If within spec you should be good to go.Just consider what you will lose with a hone.

[barnett468]

Hello redsox;



I've searched the site, and there is an abundance of info on the 200x. So, perhaps the questions that arise may have been asked an answered. Oh well. If it upsets you, move on the to next thread. Lots of drama on here lately…I think that since your post at least appears to be in the correct forum there shouldn’t be any problems, lol.


Ok, first I want to say that I think you are hilarious in a good way. I love your post, your questions and how it is worded/phrased. It’s hard to search through 100’s of posts to find answers unless you type in CDI, in which case you will ALWAYS find KBONLY telling the op to buy a $5.00 Chinese one off Ebay, which in fact actually work just fine, lol.


Some of the following has already been mentioned by others.


PISTON - Ok, in my experience, if cost is a factor the Wiseco or Shindy pistons are likely the least expensive. They are both XLNT pistons. The Shindy is Japanese made and the Wiseco is a forged piston that is US made. Since you are NOT putting 20,000, miles a year on it they are fine to use.

COMPRESSION – If you are NOT opposed to running at least 93 octane gas, AND you want a LITTLE more performance, I recommend getting a piston that increases your compression to around 10.25.

This is mildly beneficial on an engine with a stock cam but it is strongly suggested on an engine with a cam that is “bigger” than stock. This is because, in general, the bigger the cam, the more it lowers the compression. This is due to the increased cam lobe overlap and/or later intake valve closing times “bigger” cams typically have. Since your cam size is unknown AND therefore may be “bigger” than stock, increasing the compression is a bit of insurance against your bike running like a P I G in the lower rpms due to stock compression combined with a “huge” cam.

If the outdoor temps are typically around 80 degrees and above where you ride, you might need slightly higher octane than 93 it you run higher compression. E85 corn gas = around 104. Simply listen carefully for a slight pinging sound upon acceleration. If you hear it, you need higher octane gas and/or stiffer springs on your ignition advance unit.


Shindy stock 9.6 compression. Up to 1.25 mm over. Open the link then click the small blue box on the right side that says search distributors to see where to buy it. Try ebay also.

http://shindypro.com/piston_kits.html


Wiseco. 10.25 compression, up to 2.0 mm over.

http://www.wiseco.com/ProductSearch.aspx


HARD STARTING/IGNITION ADVANCE – Your ignition should not advance while you are kicking it or below around 1400 rpm. If you encounter hard starting again, with the engine COLD, I would lay the plug on the head and kick it over. If the spark is yellow it is weak and most likely due to a weak stator assy or ignition coil. If you can get the bike running bit it does not start when it is warm/hot, I would check the spark color again. If it looks weaker when the engine is warm, the prob is definitely electrical.

IGNITION TIMING – You can check it with the plug out while kicking it over then again while it is idling. I put a mark on the flywheel F mark with white out to make it more visible and check it in a dimly lit area.

CAM IDENTIFICATION – I do not think the orig cam had any marks on it. The aftermarket ones might.

CAM INSPECTION - Look for moderate to heavy grooves. Replace if it has them.

ROCKER ARM INSPECTION - Look for flat spots. They surface shpuld be smooth wirth no low spots. Replace if they have moderate to excessive wear.

LEAKING VALVES – Since the head is off, I would spray some carb cleaner in one port at a time and see if it weeps out the valve. It should not.
You can also remove the valve springs and “feel” if the guides are excessively worn or if the guide/stem seals look damaged.

STROKER IDENTIFICATION – If your connecting rod looks like it has stock Honda markings on it, it is NOT a stroker. You can post a photo of the rod numbers and we can possibly decipher what you have.

It might be hard to measure rod length, however, if you install the cylinder, you can measure the actual stroke from the piston at the bottom and the piston at the top. Stock stroke is 57.8 mm.

BORE SIZE IDENTIFICATION – As suggested by rg97, have it measured for taper and out of round. As mentioned by atc007, your piston should have some numbers on the top like .25, .50, .75, 1.0 or .010, .020, .030, .040. These will indicate bore size greater than stock.

GASKET SET – I would not use a Tusk kit. It is likely Chinese. Below is just one of several negative reviews I found online regarding them. I would but original, Vesrah or Cometic.

“Today I was putting my engine back together with my spare Wiseco piston and my Tusk gasket kit.

Wow you get what you pay for with this kit! Complete POS.

It comes with a power valve gasket, which has glue on the back of it in the Yamaha OEM kit. But in this it doesn't so the gasket falls down when you put the cover on. And it ripped too.

Also inner o-ring was too small.

All in all a crappy kit and I won't be using it again, OEM all the way next time.”


VESRAH TOP END KIT $40.00

http://www.ebay.com/itm/HONDA-86-87-ATC-200X-Top-End-Gasket-Set-VESRAH-200X-MADE-IN-JAPAN-/290855180765#ht_314wt_1167


COMETIC KIT, NO O RINGS $26.00

http://www.ebay.com/itm/83-85-Honda-ATC200X-COMETIC-TOP-END-GASKET-KIT-ATC-200X-/330565076350#ht_1017wt_952


TUSK KIT WITH O RINGS $20.00. The low price alone should be a clear indicator of the quality one might expect.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Tusk-Top-End-Head-Gasket-Kit-HONDA-ATC-200X-1983-1985-NEW-/400511849114#ht_715wt_930


CYLINDER AND HEAD SURFACING – You can check both these for flatness by doing the following:

1. Use a full size sheet of around 280 – 320 wet/dry sand paper.

2. Lay it on a granite counter top or tape it to a window next to the frame.

3. Clean the cylinder and head gasket surfaces then color them with black felt pen.

4. Spray water or WD40 on the paper.

5. Using light - moderate force, rotate each part approximately 4 turns on the paper.

6. Look at felt mark, continue sanding until it is completely gone.


BREAK IN - Ok, can't help myself, lol. I would use a NON synthetic oil designed for Motorcycles or ATV's that also contains high levels of ZDDP. Levels of between around 1100 and 1400 have been determined to be best. Valvoline Motorcycle and ATV oils meet these parameters and are typically available in autp parts stores. One does not "NEED" to use a motorcycle specific oil however they are a little bit better for the clutches.

Piston rings occasionally do not break in as quickly or even properly if synthetic oil is used for break in.

[fabiodriven]

I'm not super well versed with the 200's, but if I had it apart I'd work on the kicker and check out the timing chain. Then I'd do gaskets and seals and take a peek at the clutch.

[rg97]

Run 10W-30 Shell Rotella T oil and forget about it

[redsox]

If that circlip let go on the old top end, it's floating around in the bottom end somewhere. Have you checked/replaced the oil?

i have drained the oil. oddly, the remaining piece of the circlip was intact, still doing its damnedest to hold the wrist pin in place. i tried to match up the complete circlip with the broken one + the pieces i found. i have most, if not all of it accounted for. there is nothing larger than a nickel floating around down there. :naughty:

[redsox]

I'm not super well versed with the 200's, but if I had it apart I'd work on the kicker and check out the timing chain. Then I'd do gaskets and seals and take a peek at the clutch.

i did the clutch already on this bottom end. there are no knocks or anything from the timing chain, and it looks pretty good. the kicker repair involves splitting the cases and i don't want to get that deep in this project.

[redsox]

When you go to put the new circlips in make sure to position them so that the openings are either up, or down, but not sideways as that is what can make them close up and get out of the groove.

thanks, solid info. i didnt realize that. i'll be sure to make sure.

[redsox]

BREAK IN - Ok, can't help myself, lol. I would use a NON synthetic oil designed for Motorcycles or ATV's that also contains high levels of ZDDP. Levels of between around 1100 and 1400 have been determined to be best. Valvoline Motorcycle and ATV oils meet these parameters and are typically available in autp parts stores. One does not "NEED" to use a motorcycle specific oil however they are a little bit better for the clutches.

Piston rings occasionally do not break in as quickly or even properly if synthetic oil is used for break in.

You ALMOST made it through without the oil jargon!!! haha. lots of good info. much appreciated.

[barnett468]

You ALMOST made it through without the oil jargon!!! haha. lots of good info. much appreciated.You're very welcome. I...I...I just couldn't help myself. Yes, I guess I have an oil fetish. I guess there are much worse [or less fun] things one could have. Perhaps I should enroll in a 12 step "de-oiling fetish" program, lol. "Hello everyone...my name is Barnett, and I LOVE oil..."

METAL IN OIL - As far as metal bits in the engine go. I like to use magnetic drain plugs. Tri Again likes to stick Neodymium magnets on the drain bolts instead. The magnets keep most of the steel [from gears wearing etc] out of the oil.

ENGINE POWER - If it does have a huge cam and you prefer your power to come in a little sooner, you can change the gear ratio and/or buy a very cool adjustable cam sprocket/gear and advance the cam around 4 - 6 degrees. WEBCAMSHAFTS should have them. Rotate the engine to insure the valves do not hit the piston which they should not. Either way, if the clearances are bigger, I doubt they would be more than around .003" wider than stock in most cases .

VALVE/ROCKER CLEARANCE - If you have a cam that is bigger than stock, they often use clearances that are bigger than stock. If no one here know for sure I would contact web cams and ask for their suggestion. Either way, I doubt the clearance would be more than around .003" greater than stock.

http://www.webcamshafts.com/

[rg97]

If you're looking for reliability then stick with a stock cam.

[Mudduck]

yeah i met jeffatc250r 2 weeks ago spring time comes im in

[DohcBikes]

I don't think you mentioned changing cams for performance, but I do see a couple suggestions, here's my 2¢.....

The XR200 cam is a common, uninteresting upgrade for a 200x. Still available brand new and affordable, Honda quality parts.

The 9.6:1 OEM piston is a flattop piston, its a great choice for reliability AND power. In addition to the OE style Shindy's and Sudcos, don't forget to look at NOS Honda pistons and rings, once you have determined the condition and size of your bore.


And by the way to anyone considering Pro-x pistons, circlip failure is a common issue with these. Good piston, BAD circlips. If they have since addressed the issue I am not aware. Personally I will continue to steer clear for now.

[redsox]

ok, so i made some progress last night and today. a thousand interruptions today, so i could never quite get in the groove, but i muscled through and got some stuff done. i cleaned things up and got rid of the old gaskets. 187047187048 i also took the runner out of the other machine and started a tear down. got the cam out and have the head off. everything looks great. the jug and head look perfect. the piston is marked "965" on top. the jug is stuck on tight and i couldn't get it off. i had to pack it in for the night. I should be able to chip away during the week. again, to stay focused, i want to order the stuff i'll need. i'm gonna order a better gasket kit. has anyone dealt with G+H Supply on ebay? their prices are good. also, i'm questioning the "if it ain't broke" theorem. if everything is kosher in the top end thats going on, should i futz with it? hone, rings, piston, valve seals, etc. etc.? i know i probably should, but why? what does the "965" mean? is that stock? thats all for now. thanks for looking.

[DohcBikes]

Can we get more pictures?

I don't know what was causing your few issues on the running engine but i would measure ring gaps, piston, and cylinder at the minimum unless it was running perfect.

If you can't see the crosshatch its a good idea to hone it.

965 is on the top of my stock pistons as well, I don't know why. I will say this...its 9.6 piston, 65mm bore, maybe that has something to do with the way they numbered the part.

[DohcBikes]

Pics of the top of the piston and a backlit pic of the cylinder would be nice.

[barnett468]

Hello redsox;




...took the runner out of the other machine and started a tear down. got the cam out and have the head off. everything looks great. the jug and head look perfect. the piston is marked "965" on top. the jug is stuck on tight and i couldn't get it off.

i want to order the stuff i'll need. i'm gonna order a better gasket kit. has anyone dealt with G+H Supply on ebay? their prices are good.

also, i'm questioning the "if it ain't broke" theorem. if everything is kosher in the top end thats going on, should i futz with it? hone, rings, piston, valve seals, etc. etc.? i know i probably should, but why?

what does the "965" mean? is that stock? thats all for now. thanks for looking.
I would do ALL the inspections suggested by all, you obviously can't tell if the valves are leaking simply by looking at them. Very few here want to see you post a thread that says "Hey my engine smokes and pops, how come?", lol.


G H DISCOUNT ATV - The biggest thing I care about is getting quality parts. I see they have Shindy and D. I. D. which as I mentioned are very high quality parts. This does not mean that everything they carry is good. I suggest you simply list the brand name of the parts you are interested in before you but them if you want and we can tell you what we think about them. They have 99% positive feedback for 37,000 parts so their service is probably good.


936 ON PISTON - I don't remember for sure, however, if it is cast in [not stamped], I would "guess" it is orig, but since guessing wont help you, hopefully someone else will know for sure.


CYL REMOVAL - Ok, one way to Neanderthal the cyl off is to take a putty knife [because they have a fairly thin blade], sharpen the blade on one side only, round both corners slightly to reduce the potential for “gouging” then H A M M A R that baby between the eng case and cylinder about 1/2 the depth of the gasket with a big 2 pounder on one side then the other and simply work your way around stopping to try and rock it off occasionally. Yes this is one of my more “technical” suggestions, lol.


CYL/PISTON - Since you are likely going to keep the bike for a while, I would inspect the piston/cyl as suggested and repair as necessary. At the very least I would get the cyl trued if necessary and install new rings. If you are on a super tight budget and your cylinder is good but your piston to cyl clearance is slightly loose, you can simply get your piston knurled buy an old guy at an old machine shop. More super high tech info for ya.


TIMING CHAIN – I would use a D. I. D., Wiesco or orig Honda only. There are chains for around 30% less however the chain is a critical part and if it breaks it will make you and your engine very, very unhappy. It’s also best to replace the timing gears along with the chain, otherwise the chain will wear prematurely.


GASKETS

Athena gaskets are made in Italy and cost less than the others below. I would not use them but some say they are ok.

Vesrah gaskets are made in Japan.

Cometic gaskets are xlnt and made in the US.

Not everyone has good success with Athena’s as evidenced by the comments below, however, there are two sides to every story and if these guys here like them, with proper installation on FLAT gasket surfaces you should have no problem. I NOT like leaks. I just prefer the best gaskets I can get when using them on the cylinder head. I do NOT like leaks.


“My Athena kit sucked and leaked around the cam chain after a couple weeks. The rubber piece that went around the cam chain opening between the head and cylinder looked like it was a terrible excuse for the shape it was trying to fill. Also the Vesrah kits I have ordered in the past include new valve seals. The Athena kit for my Trail 90 was too cheap to include the one needed valve seal. I would never buy an Athena kit again.”


Orig head gasket and others may be avail from Honda. See http://cmsnl.com and http://partzilla.com for orig parts. Cmsnl stocks many discontinued orig parts. Partzilla’s prices are less than cmsnl’s.



And, I’m not going to mention oil this time…Oh darn it, I just did…Man I need help!

[MNhondaguy]

Yes, I guess I have an oil fetish. I guess there are much worse [or less fun] things one could have. Perhaps I should enroll in a 12 step "de-oiling fetish" program, lol. "Hello everyone...my name is Barnett, and I LOVE oil..."

http://www.webcamshafts.com/


There's one of you on every forum out there, and many people are educated correctly by such persons. I am thankful for people with the knowledge and patience to inform others. :beer

[redsox]

yeah i met jeffatc250r 2 weeks ago spring time comes im in


Funny lookin' kid, ain't he? Don't let his boyish good looks fool you. He speaks 6 languages, is one hell of an opera singer, and can tune a banjo in under 4 seconds. he once won a slam dunk contest by accident.

NO progress today boys. 8-10 powder. sick of it!! more to come tomorrow after work. sorry.

[barnett468]

NO progress today boys. 8-10 powder. sick of it!! more to come tomorrow after work. sorry.Hey, thanks for stoppin in to tell us ya got nothin ta tell us, lol.

[rg97]

Hey, thanks for stoppin in to tell us ya got nothin ta tell us, lol.
Hey, thanks for adding something useful and upbuilding to the thread, lol.

redsox,
If you cant get the jug off make sure there is nothing holding it back, before you take a hammer to it. If you want to do what barnett suggested with a putty knife watch that you dont hit a stud. That would be a headache. Also watch that you dont scratch the mating surfaces. If you do, when you replace the gaskets it won't seal right and you'll need a new jug and/or case. Dont rush into it and have it bite you in the butt!
I know the feeling about snow man! I've had like a dump of 4-5", then a week goes by, and then another 4-5" for about a month now. It hit above freezing for the first time this month today. Supposed to be in the high 40's on thursday here. I'm preparing my ark for the flood!

[redsox]

ok, so, someone i greatly respect always says "never let lazy be the reason" so, i ate a quick supper and went out to the barn to just accomplish one thing. move the project forward a bit. if i got one thing done then i knew i'd feel better than if i hit the couch and drank. so, i got the jug off and took pictures of the cylinder and the piston. the piston looks a bit burnt around the edges. is that bad? its in great shape otherwise. not a scratch. is everyone still leaning towards replacement? the cylinder looks immaculate. i tried my best to take pics. they came out so/so. i have a quality honing tool, but i'm a bit skeptical. how much do i hone? i don't wanna screw it up. i'm thinking i'll order the piston, rings, and gaskets tonight and i'll just re-ebay the tusk kit when it shows up. thoughts?187121187122187123187124187125

[barnett468]

Hey, thanks for adding something useful and upbuilding to the thread, lol.Hey, thanks for making a useless, unnecessary, sarcastic remark for no good reason.

I guess you missed my other posts 18, 26 and 33. Although I’m certain that I missed something, I can’t think of anything else to add at this time unless I post info on the optimum viscosity oil to use in cold weather or what tires are best to use in the snow since he did say there was snow outside.

Would doing that make you happy?




Post 34.

There's one of you on every forum out there, and many people are educated correctly by such persons. I am thankful for people with the knowledge and patience to inform others. :beer





Barnett has put up with way more...he is still here.Yup!





I know the feeling about snow man! I've had like a dump of 4-5", then a week goes by, and then another 4-5" for about a month now. It hit above freezing for the first time this month today. Supposed to be in the high 40's on thursday here. I'm preparing my ark for the flood!And you think this comment is related to his engine questions, "useful" to him and "upbuilds" the thread?



I have no suggestions for you, however, I at least think about what I am posting before I hit the send button. Don't forget, I have no edit button to hide behind. I hope this thread gets derailed no further than this. Although there might be a few here that like to read the type of comment you posted, I can ASSURE you it is a FACT that not everyone does.

[barnett468]

Hello redsox;


PS – Just curious, how did you get the cylinder off?





ok, so, someone i greatly respect always says "never let lazy be the reason" so, i ate a quick supper and went out to the barn to just accomplish one thing. move the project forward a bit. if i got one thing done then i knew i'd feel better than if i hit the couch and drank.I would have chosen option "B".





i got the jug off and took pictures of the cylinder and the piston. the piston looks a bit burnt around the edges. is that bad? its in great shape otherwise. not a scratch. is everyone still leaning towards replacement? the cylinder looks immaculate. i tried my best to take pics. they came out so/so. i have a quality honing tool, but i'm a bit skeptical. how much do i hone? i don't wanna screw it up. i'm thinking i'll order the piston, rings, and gaskets tonight and i'll just re-ebay the tusk kit when it shows up. Thoughts?I refer you to posts 1 thru 33 for most of your answers, lol. Again, I would measure, measure, measure.


CYLINDER - The cylinder looks like it has a few pit marks around 1” down from the top. If you can feel ANY irregularities in the surface near the top, I would definitely bore it irregardless of how the rest of it measures.


PISTON – I would not be worried about the color on the piston however I would MEASURE it also which actually has NOT been mentioned yet.

A piston can be heavily worn but still “look” ok. I would measure it 90 degrees to the pin [front to back] at 1/4” below the oil ring land, around 1” below the ring land and around 1/4” up from the bottom.

If the bottom is smaller than the middle measurement, it is worn beyond spec and I would replace it. If you do not, it will “rock” excessively in the cylinder which is not good.


RING LANDS [grooves] – These also wear and there is a service limit spec for them in the manual. If they are beyond spec and you use them the rings may “flutter”/”chatter” in the grooves with can prevent them from sealing properly, cause the rings to break and/or wear the cylinder prematurely.



PS - I hope this post is more useful than my post 36, lol.

[rg97]

You didn't include the part where I helped redsox. Too bad. I help then make a comment about the record weather which Redsox brought up first. I see nothing wrong with that. This is the end of this.
Redsox, if your cylinder is well within spec (measure top, bottom and measure front-back and side-side... If all at same or within a couple thousandths and are good according to Honda manual) then you can hone until you have a nice 45 degree cross hatch. Measure again. Honing only takes off a few thousandths of material so you'll be fine there.
I say replace all that you listed. That discoloration on the piston isn't bad but brand new stuff (OEM or higher comp wiseco) are going to be Better than a 30 year old part. Just imho

[DohcBikes]

I refer you to posts 1 thru 33 for most of your answers, lol. Again, I would measure, measure, measure.


PISTON – I would not be worried about the color on the piston however I would MEASURE it also which actually has NOT been mentioned yet.

Yes I realize that there are no pretty pictures to draw your attention to my posts, but......

In post 31.


I would measure ring gaps, piston, and cylinder at the minimum unless it was running perfect.

If you can't see the crosshatch its a good idea to hone it..

Sorry, it had to be done :welcome: thanks for explaining further:beer

Yep there's a bunch of top end knowledge in here to be reviewed, keep your Honda service manual handy!!

Barnett said one time that Honda is perfect. I saw it on the internet so I know its true.

[fabiodriven]

I may have missed some of these posts, I don't know what's going on up there. I stopped reading Barnett's posts within two weeks of his arrival and I can't change that now regardless of if he says anything pertinent or not. I simply just wouldn't know. The rest of this stuff seems stupid basic. Yeah don't scratch the mating surfaces, der. I certainly wouldn't toss a jug or case that had a gouged mating surface, I'd plane it then fill it with JB Weld. No biggie. You gotta be a real peach to even get to that point though, but I'd be lying if I said I've never seen it.

I'm not sure how far you're going with this machine, but if you're just going to be using it like we normally do and it's not a race bike or a show piece the answer is simple to me. If it were mine, I'd have the bore and piston measured. If a hone is all it needs and it's a factory piston, I'd hone it, re-ring it, and throw it back together. If it needed a bore then I'd have it bored and use a Honda piston. Just how I'd go about it personally.

[nicker71]

I've had good,success with G&H on both my 200x and 110. Im sure they would use oem parts or whatever you want as long as they sell you the parts. They did my head and cylinder on my x and it took about two weeks

[DohcBikes]

I may have missed some of these posts, I don't know what's going on up there. I stopped reading Barnett's posts within two weeks of his arrival and I can't change that now regardless of if he says anything pertinent or not. I simply just wouldn't know. The rest of this stuff seems stupid basic. Yeah don't scratch the mating surfaces, der. I certainly wouldn't toss a jug or case that had a gouged mating surface, I'd plane it then fill it with JB Weld. No biggie. You gotta be a real peach to even get to that point though, but I'd be lying if I said I've never seen it.Seriously, can we get a LMAO button to click??

Would've saved a post for sure lol...

[Dirtcrasher]

Hey, thanks for stoppin in to tell us ya got nothin ta tell us, lol.

It's his THREAD, he can do what he wants Deepa

[barnett468]

I may have missed some of these posts, I don't know what's going on up there. I stopped reading Barnett's posts within two weeks of his arrival and I can't change that now regardless of if he says anything pertinent or not. I simply just wouldn't know."Howdy" fabiodriven;

I know you don't like it when I start my posts off with "Hello" so I thought I'd go easy on you and change my greeting.

I understand that my posts give you a headache as you mentioned before [lol], however, I don’t understand the point of you telling us on this thread that you don't read them anymore since the title of this thread is, “An uninteresting 200x thread.", and NOT, “Hey, I just thought I'd let everyone know I don't read Barnetts posts anymore.”, lol.

Redsox, who is the op of the thread btw, has thanked me as well as some others for our information. I'm guessing he appreciates yours also, and imo [as if it matters], an op's opinion of the posts is the most important one.





The rest of this stuff seems stupid basic. Yeah don't scratch the mating surfaces, der. I certainly wouldn't toss a jug or case that had a gouged mating surface, I'd plane it then fill it with JB Weld. No biggie. Just for clarification for others, rg97 is the one that made the comment I think fabiodriven is referring to, which included, if you scratch it you will “need a new jug and/or cylinder.". I do like the way he has learned how to use the term/phrase, "and/or" from me at he very least. Anyway, rg97 then wanted me to give him credit for this statement as if he might have thought his post had no merit unless I acknowledged it. That seems a bit bizarre to me, however, perhaps since you have mentioned it here, it might be sufficient acknowledgement for him.

It also seems to me that he might not have ever seen the JB Weld you speak of or is simply unaware of its many varied uses, as imo, you appear to be.


redsox,
If you want to do what barnett suggested with a putty knife watch that you dont hit a stud. That would be a headache. Also watch that you dont scratch the mating surfaces. If you do, when you replace the gaskets it won't seal right and you'll need a new jug and/or case.



For everyone’s info, I actually acknowledged everyone’s post on this thread.

Post 41.

I refer you to posts 1 thru 33 for most of your answers, lol. Again, I would measure, measure, measure.



Since as you implied, you won't be reading this post because it's mine, perhaps someone like DohcBikes might post a synopsis of it for you so you are up to speed on the latest "intel".








Yes I realize that there are no pretty pictures to draw your attention to my posts, but......Hello DohcBikes;


Hey, first of all, I want the name of the person that taught you how to do multiple quotes!

In post 31.

I would measure ring gaps, piston, and cylinder at the minimum unless it was running perfect.Uh, even though there were NO pretty pictures to look at in your post, I not only saw AND read it, if you look at the bottom of it when you sober up and your eyes hopefully regain focus, you might see that I was also the FIRST person to click ”Like this post.”, so have no fear, even though there are NO pretty pictures I have NOT forgotten you, lol.

I was simply elaborating on your post with specific details once I saw redsox’s piston.




thanks for explaining further :beer




Barnett said one time that Honda is perfect.No one here would EVER believe that I said that, lol.




thanks for explaining further :beer

Here, have some more beer.
:beer

[barnett468]

It's his THREAD, he can do what he wants DeepaUh, you can put away your hangmans noose and silly red face emoticon there Dirtcrasher. Contrary to the conclusion you appear to be jumping to, my comment was meant in jest with no ill will intended, however, I am aware of the unfortunate need for some people to convict/condemn hastily without first determining or reviewing the FACTS which imo, is EXACTLY what you are doing to me here.


Redsox, who is the op of the thread btw, has thanked me as well as some others for our information. I'm guessing he appreciates yours also, and imo [as if it matters], an op's opinion of the posts is the most important one.




FYI, Redsox made the comment below to me in post 25. Since my nature is not to view everyone’s comments to me as ill willed, I interpreted it as being funny and clicked “Like this post.” Underneath it.

Post 25.

You ALMOST made it through without the oil jargon!!! haha. lots of good info. much appreciated.



You can apologize or not.

You can play 3WW Sheriff or not.

You can "report" my post or not.

You can...

[barnett468]

Hello redsox;

I sent you a pm.

[redsox]

i watched about an hour of video last night on youtube re honing cylinders. it ain't no thing but a chicken wing. i can handle it. so, i'm measuring the piston today and ordering what i need. i'll hone, clean, and prep everything while i wait for shipping. i'll lap the valves, new valve seals, and reassemble. i'm gonna keep it simple here, and have a nice, useable rider.

as for the malarkey, lets try and keep it between the lines. sarcasm and hilarity will be greatly rewarded, but whining and bickering will not be tolerated.

[DohcBikes]

I believe its "no thang but a chicken Wang"
:lol:
ohhh wait a minute that doesnt look so good when its typed out:lol:

Flex hone: keep it lubed

Slowwwwww speed on the drill

Fast up and down, quick changes of direction, measure the cylinder as you proceed.

You still need to measure everything!!!


GUYS CAN WE DO THIS COMMUNITY A FAVOR, PUT ON OUR GROWN UP HATS AND QUIT ACTING LIKE CHILDREN? WE DONT NEED GROWN MEN TELLING OTHERS WHAT TO POST AND WHERE TO POST IT. THE SITE HAS OWNERS AND MODS FOR THAT.

IF YOU DONT GET THE HUMOR THEN WHY RESPOND? BECAUSE YOU SOUND LIKE A FREAKIN BABY WHEN YOU WHINE ABOUT IT.

End rant, carry on.

[barnett468]

i watched about an hour of video last night on youtube re honing cylinders. it ain't no thing but a chicken wing. i can handle it. so, i'm measuring the piston today and ordering what i need. i'll hone, clean, and prep everything while i wait for shipping. i'll lap the valves, new valve seals, and reassemble. i'm gonna keep it simple here, and have a nice, useable rider.

as for the malarkey, lets try and keep it between the lines. sarcasm and hilarity will be greatly rewarded, but whining and bickering will not be tolerated.Yeah the honing is easy. the mistake sime people make is spinning the hone too fast and not going up and down or in and out fast enough [yeah that doesn't sound too good so take that how you will, lol].

I usually hone the bore for around 15 seconds after which I'm done. If you hone it much longer than this, it might make it too loose.

A hand held hone will NOT true a cylinder.




As DohcBikes mentioned in line 3 of post 31 at 8:57 pm on 2-17-2014 which he likely made from his voice activated tablet while sitting in his back yard in Glendale Arizona next to a roaring flame fueled by cardboard boxes while suckin back a frosty one, it should have a cross hatch pattern. See his comment quoted below and God help me if I left somethin out, lol.


If you can't see the crosshatch its a good idea to hone it.

Anyway you want to achieve lines that are basically an X pattern so spin slow and go in and out fast and please do not post a video.

Also, I like to spray WD40 on it before I hone the bore. Ok, I’m givin up, this is just goin into the toilet now.




CLEANING THE BORE - Ok, this is far from being as easy as it seems in my experience and there are several ways to do this. Below is just one.

1. Clean in solvent tank or spray with carb or brake cleaner.

2. Wait until the old lady is gone than toss a rubber mat in the kitchen sink and fill it with warm water and liquid dish soap. Dawn or ones with citrus in them like Lemon Joy are best imo. Ok, now I’m startin to sound like a pansie.

Anyway, scrub is with a brush then rinse it off thoroughly with warm water.

3. Put some WD40 or lacquer thinner on a white paper towel and wipe the inside. If it comes out clean you are done. Just spray some WD or similar in it to keep it from rusting until you are ready to install it.

[barnett468]

I believe its "no thang but a chicken Wang"
:lol:
ohhh wait a minute that doesnt look so good when its typed out:lol:

Flex hone: keep it lubed

Slowwwwww speed on the drill

Fast up and down, quick changes of direction, measure the cylinder as you proceed.

You still need to measure everything!!!

SON OF A "BLEEPIN" FARMER, I started my post in the post window before yours so I didn't see it until AFTER I posted, lol.

Now i look like a M O R O N because I HAVE NO EDIT BUTTON! :lol:

I think I'll just go to bed, yes I know, thank goodness.

HEY, at least I told him one way he could clean it after he honed it.

:beer

[DohcBikes]

Hey nothing wrong with some AGREEMENTS now and then eh??:Bounce

[redsox]

Hello redsox;


PS – Just curious, how did you get the cylinder off?


it wasn't that bad coming off. i'd just run out of time the night before. i used a rubber mallet and worked my way around until it came loose. broke a small bit off the front lower cooling fin.:cry: i was afraid of the hammer and putty knife idea, but would have tried it if necessary.


I'm not sure how far you're going with this machine, but if you're just going to be using it like we normally do and it's not a race bike or a show piece the answer is simple to me. If it were mine, I'd have the bore and piston measured. If a hone is all it needs and it's a factory piston, I'd hone it, re-ring it, and throw it back together. If it needed a bore then I'd have it bored and use a Honda piston. Just how I'd go about it personally.

agreed john. what i "could" do is not the same as what i "need to" do. i don't know if you've seen this machine but its the one my cousin kevin has been riding. i'm just looking for reliability. i'm not afraid to spend $ on whats needed, but i want to keep things simple, and get it done and back together. its got new bearings, a new clutch, new brakes, a fresh carb and new cables. we're getting there.


I've had good,success with G&H on both my 200x and 110. Im sure they would use oem parts or whatever you want as long as they sell you the parts. They did my head and cylinder on my x and it took about two weeks

thanks. that's what i was hoping for.


It's his THREAD, he can do what he wants Deepa

i like the little angry emoji, but it dosen't suit you! your a pillar of positivity bud.


Hello redsox;

I sent you a pm.

PM recieved. I'm no medical doctor, but i'd get that thing looked at! In the long run, I guess if the horse is ok, then its water under the bridge.



Hey nothing wrong with some AGREEMENTS now and then eh??:Bounce

bingo. i'm the one asking for help here. i appreciate ANYONE taking the time to read this and throw out opinions and suggestions. i'll sort through all the junk, get what i need, and be thankful for it. for the record, barnett pm'd me kind of apologizing for all the baggage his posts bring with them to the thread because of old beefs or whatever. i thought that was pretty Fred Blassie. I'll be home and wrenching soon. lets press on and get through this thing.

[Dirtcrasher]

Well, all I can add from personal experience is that I have honed dozens of cylinders with a fast in and out but a slow revolution on the lubricated ball hone. Ends up from 30degrees to 45degrees. It never takes off .002, maybe in a Sunnen honing machine but not by the method that has served me well for 25 years. One crucial step which may have been mentioned, is to completely clean all cylinders bored or honed in warm soapy water to remove any hidden traces of fine metal after a hone,bore or contamination. Dry it fast and some light oil will prevent the "flash rust".


FACT, I have rebuilt too many motors to recall and they never blew up; Not 1 motor I built blew up!!, so I'm doing something right. Then the 4 strokes came along with the shims on top of the valves and I started rebuilding those as well. My friend said it best, "every motor you build me starts on the 1st kick!!" made me feel good :D Gotta take pride in your work.


I also like to chase all threads with a tap, making sure 1.5X the diameter is the length needed for optimum thread strength. For example, those 6x1.0 pitch case bolts need to be 9mm thread length, more is not necessary. I learned this when working with a toolmaker as well as owning my own machine shop.


Check ALL gasket or honda-bond mating surfaces with a fine stone such as a toolmakers stone with WD40 and watch the high spots disappear!! Remove the dowel pins and clean them, then lightly oil them and reinstall them for an easy re-assembly. These issues you may find are from prior owners that smashed mating surfaces apart, and back together. Most motors have a casting "boss" for a brass drift and light hammer to avoid damage to the surfaces.


I also apply grease to my clutch cover, stator side cover gaskets and some others and don't have leaks; The gasket can be re-used. New gaskets crushed for the first time are nice, however, my method has not failed me in a situation when a clutch is lost and you don't have the gasket. Of course it is not a practice to be done on base or cylinder head gaskets. If you had a 2 stroke, I would recommend using a pointy punch on the base mount with about 5 dimples on each thin side as sometimes those can be "suked" in the crank (seen it), but we have a 4 stroke here so I shall continue.


You are more than welcome to bring that machine down and we can cover more than you have read as why it is done a certain way. Fully heated shop with any tool you could possibly need. It's nice when you understand why the cam spins more times than the crank and WHY! TDC, timing, 180 out and other discussions can be educating. I would not charge you one dime as I enjoy your company.


It's also time to yank the clutch cover and clean the "oil filter rotor" which is a centrifugal type of oil filter rather than a paper oil filter element such as on your 86/87 250SX. Look at the damage to that top end, that damage all goes in the oil filter rotor and some out the left side steel mesh filter.


We can also discuss your kickstarter gears if a shim for the engagement of the gears or back cutting them has been done with good results. Especially when you replace the top end with a greater compression piston than OEM. This area has been a demon of 83/84 and 85 200X's. The 86/87 200X solved that issue.

[lokisbuddy]

I have a friend who's a very talented machinist, well two actually if you include Steve as well, but this other guy does boring and sleeving. My first job was working for him in high school. He told me OEM is the way to go and that's all I needed to hear.

I have nothing whatsoever against oem but I have been using wiseco pistons in everything I own and I had a .20 over wiseco in my xr for 6 years and I abused her like a Detroit whore till the frame broke I then took the piston out, re ringed it and its now happily seated in my 200x jug :) its all a matter of preference I suppose.

[redsox]

I have nothing whatsoever against oem but I have been using wiseco pistons in everything I own and I had a .20 over wiseco in my xr for 6 years and I abused her like a Detroit whore till the frame broke I then took the piston out, re ringed it and its now happily seated in my 200x jug :) its all a matter of preference I suppose.

i don't think wiseco is a bad product. i also don't think anyone else is suggesting that wiseco is bad. but, as the rebuild is for stock durability, and not performance enhancement, i think the suggestion was leading me towards oem. the stock piston, which has undoubtedly taken a smokin' beating, has been rocking for 30 years and it don't look bad. if this were a differnt build, i'd probably go wiseco.

[lokisbuddy]

i don't think wiseco is a bad product. i also don't think anyone else is suggesting that wiseco is bad. but, as the rebuild is for stock durability, and not performance enhancement, i think the suggestion was leading me towards oem. the stock piston, which has undoubtedly taken a smokin' beating, has been rocking for 30 years and it don't look bad. if this were a differnt build, i'd probably go wiseco.

you're right I was just tossing my 2 cents in so a stray reader to let them know that if you take care of your engine like I and many others take care of theirs a wiseco will last a long time even if you beat it like it owed you money :)

[fabiodriven]

I've used plenty of Wiseco pistons, they're great. I'd use OEM first though unless I were trying to bump the compression.

[barnett468]

it wasn't that bad coming off. i used a rubber mallet and worked my way around until it came loose. broke a small bit off the front lower cooling fin.:cry: i was afraid of the hammer and putty knife idea, but would have tried it if necessary.Unfortunately now you know why I suggested the putty knife method. There is occasionally a method to my madness, lol. I have used it a zillion times with nominal to 0 damage.

If you want to try and reinstall the broken fin piece, you can try the JB Weld fabiodriven referred to for fixing gouges, however, a more durable method is to simply buy some of that low temp aluminum rod you might have seen on TV or at swap meets where a guy is “welding” a thin aluminum can with it. It is available at all welding supply stores.

Don’t use an oxy/acetylene torch on it, der, lol.




WISECO BRIEF HISTORY - Their pistons used to be less than great back in the 70's but they were the only non oem option available at the time for two strokes. Harry Klemm and Dave Miller used them in the team race bikes at DG and FMF. Their failure rate was extremely high with the likes of Gary Denton and Warren Reid beatin the livin bejesus out of them in the 125 pro class.

They have gone through a few changes since and are vastly improved. Harry runs them in his AHRMA Championship winning Kawi tripple. After a full season and many street miles, he tore it down and found minimal wear.





It's also time to yank the clutch cover and clean the "oil filter rotor"…OMG, he mentioned oil…can I PLEEEEASE talk about oil now, huh can I?

[Dirtcrasher]

Just checking your bottom end oil level before a ride is really important to these overhead cam units. Dennis Kirk has a timing chain guide set with the chain for a good price and it is good stuff. My 200X has been abused (once warmed up) but doesn't make that crappy sound most 1st gen 200X motors often make.........

You can always go back to a nice auto X motor; I wonder if Benny has those or just 185's. All take out motors about 600$, he got em and they are well worth the cost IMHO.

Wiseco makes a very good piston. I was able to toss a 10.25:1 into a 350X crate motor with a perfect clearance; I was surprised but very happy.

Since where talking about "Wiseco". How many of you call the Wissco or Wise-co, kinda like Teck-ate or teck-atty :lol:




OMG, he mentioned oil…can I PLEEEEASE talk about oil now, huh can I?

Yes, we can talk about the portions of the motor that removes (or tries to) remove contaminants. :beer

[barnett468]

Yes, we can talk about the portions of the motor that removes (or tries to) remove contaminants. :beer


Dang it, this is all I got.

Post 26.

METAL IN OIL - As far as metal bits in the engine go. I like to use magnetic drain plugs. Tri Again likes to stick Neodymium magnets on the drain bolts instead. The magnets keep most of the steel [from gears wearing etc] out of the oil.

[Dirtcrasher]

Yeah the 1st gens have that giant 24 or so mm that holds the crappy big parts in a mesh filter - you know...

[lokisbuddy]

Since where talking about "Wiseco". How many of you call the Wissco or Wise-co, kinda like Teck-ate or teck-atty :lol:


I say Wise-co and while I no longer have it I called my 86 tec-otty F***in C u next tue lol

[redsox]

some cleaning today, and some measuring. snow and work have a way of getting in the way of fun. so, i concentrated on getting the mating surfaces clean on the good jug. scotch pad and carb cleaner. there are no deep scratches or gouges. i feel good about it.

187235187236187237187237187238

you can see the broken fin in the last photo. not the end of the world.

i measured the cylinder, then the piston on top, canter, and bottom. it's all pretty close. all the measurements are within 3 hundredths. i'm thinking more and more that i'll reuse the piston. there doesn't seem to be much wear. i'm cleaning the jug now and i'll hone and clean again tomorrow. i'll lap the valves over the weekend while i wait for parts and i'll be ready for reassembly next week.

[DohcBikes]

3 hundredths? You should be working with thousandths, even in mm, to get an accurate picture of what the cylinder "looks"like. Maybe post some actual measurements for us...I have every stock spec and clearance right here handy.

[redsox]

One crucial step which may have been mentioned, is to completely clean all cylinders bored or honed in warm soapy water to remove any hidden traces of fine metal after a hone,bore or contamination. Dry it fast and some light oil will prevent the "flash rust".


I also like to chase all threads with a tap, making sure 1.5X the diameter is the length needed for optimum thread strength. For example, those 6x1.0 pitch case bolts need to be 9mm thread length, more is not necessary. I learned this when working with a toolmaker as well as owning my own machine shop.


Check ALL gasket or honda-bond mating surfaces with a fine stone such as a toolmakers stone with WD40 and watch the high spots disappear!! Remove the dowel pins and clean them, then lightly oil them and reinstall them for an easy re-assembly. These issues you may find are from prior owners that smashed mating surfaces apart, and back together. Most motors have a casting "boss" for a brass drift and light hammer to avoid damage to the surfaces.


I also apply grease to my clutch cover, stator side cover gaskets and some others and don't have leaks; The gasket can be re-used.

It's also time to yank the clutch cover and clean the "oil filter rotor" which is a centrifugal type of oil filter rather than a paper oil filter element such as on your 86/87 250SX. Look at the damage to that top end, that damage all goes in the oil filter rotor and some out the left side steel mesh filter.

will be sure to do all of the above. thanks, man.



We can also discuss your kickstarter gears if a shim for the engagement of the gears or back cutting them has been done with good results. Especially when you replace the top end with a greater compression piston than OEM. This area has been a demon of 83/84 and 85 200X's. The 86/87 200X solved that issue.

the bottom end with the bad kicker is getting shelved for awhile. the kicker is solid in this bottom end, hence the switch. the auto-x will be a project down the road, using the other frame.


Unfortunately now you know why I suggested the putty knife method. There is occasionally a method to my madness, lol. I have used it a zillion times with nominal to 0 damage.

If you want to try and reinstall the broken fin piece, you can try the JB Weld fabiodriven referred to for fixing gouges, however, a more durable method is to simply buy some of that low temp aluminum rod you might have seen on TV or at swap meets where a guy is “welding” a thin aluminum can with it. It is available at all welding supply stores.


i should have listened. my mistake. i'm ok with not repairing it. it ain't no trailer queen.



OMG, he mentioned oil…can I PLEEEEASE talk about oil now, huh can I?

No. Everyone is getting along.

[redsox]

did i misspeak with hundredths? new to all this, forgive me.187239187240 largest measurement and smallest measurement. largest being the cylinder.

[DohcBikes]

Ya those are thousandths in inches.

The small measurement you are showing is 2.530" The service limit for the 200x piston is 2.555", which means it is well outside the service limit.

The large measurement shows 2.561" The service limit for the cylinder is 2.563", which means you are BARELY inside the service limit.

You have over .030" piston to cylinder clearance. The service limit is .004" I know this sounds very tight but Honda has very tight clearance on this engine. Stock new they recommend .0007-.0019.

Time to bore and buy a piston.

[DohcBikes]

Also, I want to say to anyone measuring a cylinder, that calipers are not a reliable method. The correct method is to use micrometers and dial bore gauges.

Redsox, I recommend you have a machine shop measure your stuff before you get too discouraged.

[redsox]

ok. i'll double check the measurements in the morning, but, it is what it is. do it once and do it right.

[redsox]

Also, I want to say to anyone measuring a cylinder, that calipers are not a reliable method. The correct method is to use micrometers and dial bore gauges.

Redsox, I recommend you have a machine shop measure your stuff before you get too discouraged.

not discouraged at all my friend. learning all the time. this is cool stuff. i have good connections at a machine shop and will have EVERYTHING double checked. honestly, i really liked the idea of doing it myself, but, whatever. i'll get the thing bored and i'll continue to march. i wish i listened to the old man a little closer when i was younger.

[DohcBikes]

Well hey, you got the right attitude. Feel free to pm me with any specs you need, but I'll be following the thread.

On the bright side....your math was right after all lol...its 3 hundredths clearance:beer

Have the machine shop give you the measurements in inches and mm.

Mm should be to the thousandths to be accurate in my book. Inches should be to the ten thousandths, or four decimal places, to be accurate.

[Dirtcrasher]

.300 is allot.

.250 is 1/4 of an inch off. You gotta to be reading .025 and .030 about half and about Two thirds of a MM respectively.

I have inside and outside micrometers 1-12".

Give me a buzz after the micrometer makes some sense.

I see just under 2.530 and 2.561.

Vernier calipers have to be the WORST way possible to measure near anything important; They make a great ruler even with dropped pressed.

You need the inside cylinder measurements in numerous different areas to have an idea if it's within tolerance or not.

Inside telescopic bore gauges and a micrometer set as well are the only way to do it.

When I was 16yo, I went to see the resident moto mechanic and he let me work for him for him. He would drop a .005" long feeler gauge between the bore and piston and smile. New piston based on his visual inspection, the slop was noted as well. There near always barrel shape..........

[barnett468]

Hello redsox;


WARNING: The length of this post may induce drowsiness.



…do it once and do it right.lol, this comment is gonna come back to bite ya in the backside.


Ok, if the piston/cyl clearance is in fact more than around .010", it is highly likely that the crankshaft ball bearings are excessively worn AND the rod bearing is excessively worn. This is because it typically takes a LONG time to wear a piston/bore out that much PROVIDING it has not ever had much sand run through it. Well, it is a DIRT bike, of course it has had sand run through it, plus it's 50 million years old, lol.

Irregardless [see how I got that word in there Dohc] of how the piston/cyl acquired so much wear, the wear is an indicator of probable excessive wear on the bearings also.

No one wants to hear this, but based not only on the age of the bike, its unknown service history [aside from knowing the piston is orig] and excessive piston/cyl clearance, I suggest you take it apart, replace the crank ball bearings and probably the rod bearing and check the wear on the gears. It might shift fine for ten years as is, it might shift fine for a day.

You can do the following while it is assembled if you want to try and get a rough idea of the crank condition.

CRANKSHAFT BALL BEARINGS – grab the end of the crank one side at a time, see if there is any up and down or in and out play. It should be virtually 0 by feel.

ROD BEARINGS – Check the clearance between the rod and crank with a feeler gauge. Service limit is .031”

Check the radial clearance in the bearing by feel. Service limit is .002”. This is next to impossible for an inexperienced to do properly and judge reasonably well, however, if an inexperienced person can determine with certainty that there is play in this bearing, it is most likely well beyond its service limit imo.

See examples of procedures in the manual in the link below if you do not have one.

http://www.oscarmayer.net/atc/manuals/




Have the machine shop give you the measurements in inches and mm.Or just use the free online conversion calculators or math calculators which are available at http://math.com.

MM X 25.4 = INCHES

INCHES X 25.4 = MM




This section is more useless than the previous.

GOOD - At .030" clearance, at least it won't seize.

BAD - At .030" clearance, it likely wont have enough compression to run.

GOOD - If it doesn't run, you're less likely to fall off it and get hurt, plus it will save a lot of money on gas.

GOOD - At .030" clearance you can just buy a .030" over piston and shove it in there which will save you money on boring it. [That's a joke too.]





i'm ok with not repairing it. it ain't no trailer queen.Uh, yeah that’s kinda obvious if you plan on putting that nasty lookin cylinder on it without cleanin it.

Hey Dirtcrasher, please don’t hang me, it’s a joke, [sorry couldn’t help myself], lol.

From Websters online dictionary.

joke [noun]

definition:

Something said or done to provoke laughter or cause amusement, as a witticism, a short and amusing anecdote, or a prankish act.




No. Everyone is getting along.KILLJOY!



PS - Hey, I don't know if this has been mentioned yet but it might be a good idea to measure everything, lol.

[barnett468]

POST CORRECTION


:beer


I have no edit button.

[redsox]

On the bright side....your math was right after all lol...its 3 hundredths clearance:beer

i was really second guessing myself. thats what made me feel most like an idiot. i can handle the fact that the measurement may be inaccurate, but i thought AT LEAST i knew how to read the gauges. i'll get it measured right and go from there.:D


keep in mind, this engine ran GREAT prior to being taking it apart. the kicker shaft was the issue. it didn't even smoke. let me reiterate. RAN GREAT. the whole "swap" is so i don't have to split the cases. lets not panic till i get better measurements on what i have here. in fact, lets not panic at all!

[barnett468]

That's amazing.

One other thing you can do for your own interest, is take a piece of a manilla file folder around 1/2" wide x 1 1/2" long, stick around 3/4" of it in the bottom of the cylinder then install the piston.

If it goes past the paper easily it is very loose. You can measure the thickness of the paper to get a close number.

If you use 2 pieces of folder on top of each other and it goes past those well then...

Also, if it really is .030" clearance, the piston should have been rattling so loudly that a deaf person should have been able to hear it unless it had 90w gear oil in it, lol.

[barnett468]

oops. one more thing, with .030 clearance it should have a huge "ridge" in the top of the cylinder that you can easily feel with your finger however i could not see one in the photo but its hard to tell by that. you would feel it with your finger as i mentioned in a previous post.

[barnett468]

i just looked at the cylinder, you need to clean off a section of that clack carbon goo on the top of the cyl before you can tell if it has a ridge or not.

[redsox]

no ridge, the piston was tight, tight, tight in there before removal. i suspect i measured poorly on all counts. i aspire to be better. i think it best to ignore previous measurements until i get my Shite together. depending on work, i may be able to get better info today.

[barnett468]

Yeah that makes a LOT more sense, lol.

A piece of lined school paper used to be around .0025". If the piston is snug but not tight with that, it's a good sign. Two pieces on top of each other are around .005" [duh]. If its snug with that but still passes by with minimal force, then it may be out of round and tapered a bit too much to work. Again, this is obviously not exact, however, imo its a good indicator of whether you might need to start cutting back on the beverages and save some of that money for a new piston and bore.

[DohcBikes]

And Barnett.....are you in here telling people to measure clearance with paper again lol...isnt it about time for bed?:lol:

[barnett468]

And Barnett.....are you in here telling people to measure clearance with paper again lol...isnt it about time for bed?:lol:Uhm, at the risk of sounding unkind and condescending, after redsox's most recent posts it seemed like it might be a more fool proof tool for him to use.




And Barnett...isnt it about time for bed?:lol:Since this is a "family friendly" site, I am unfortunately unable to answer this question in a manner that I feel it is worthy of.




...sarcasm and hilarity will be greatly rewarded...



PS - Do you know if I can report my own posts?

[redsox]

Inside telescopic bore gauges and a micrometer set as well are the only way to do it.

i got ahold of the right tools, my friend.


Uhm, at the risk of sounding unkind and condescending, after redsox's most recent posts it seemed like it might be a more fool proof tool for him to use.

come on. cut the kid some slack. making the most of what i got. i used the best measuring tool i had on hand. i couldn't have been more than a few inches off. i could have sent some pics of the ol' 25' stanley tape, or, measured in furlongs, or rods.:naughty:

[Dirtcrasher]

I'll still gladly help you to read micrometers which are the right tool. If you know how to read them, any regular micrometer (screw digital, I drop stuff!!) you can read TENTHS of a THOUSANDTH of an INCH.

Simple decimal points.

.1000 - 1 tenth of an inch.
.0100 - 100 thousandths of an inch.
.0010 - 1 thousandth of an inch (3 decimal points)
.0001 - 1 tenth of 1 thousandth of an inch. Thats really really small.

Call me anytime bud....

[Mudduck]

omg that freaking funny

Funny lookin' kid, ain't he? Don't let his boyish good looks fool you. He speaks 6 languages, is one hell of an opera singer, and can tune a banjo in under 4 seconds. he once won a slam dunk contest by accident.

NO progress today boys. 8-10 powder. sick of it!! more to come tomorrow after work. sorry.

[redsox]

let me apologize to all for my lack of progress. part of the reason for this thread was to motivate progress and avoid long delays. if youre taking the time to read this and offer help then the least i can do is contribute on my end. Got an inside bore gauge last week. Works been crazy and the bride wrecked the new truck a bit (no one hurt) so i've been unable t get to the fun. after a little lesson on how to use the gauge, i measured the top, approximate center, and bottom of the tube. Gauge is in mm.

Top- 65.0099
Mid- 65.0299
Bot- 64.9991

so. you guys are correct. i need a bore and a piston. this is an unforeseen development, but its in my lap now. gotta get it done. this is new ground for me so there are a few questions.
What should the bore cost?

Are people sending their stuff out or going local? i have some connections locally that i will explore, but i'm curious about who does what, and where.

I think i'll go with the whole top end kit from G+H. Seems like a good price, all made in Japan.

Is honing something i'll still need to do or is that unnecessary with the bore?

thanks for the help, sorry again for the delay. this is truly becoming a Massachusetts project. Behind schedule and over budget.

[barnett468]

Hello redsox;


Bummer about troubles.

Ok, its been a while.

Do you want stock compression or higher than stock compression?

Do you want to run 87 89 or 93 octane?

Can you get E85 corn gas?

Is the piston a Shindy?

The Shindy’s are good as I and possibly others mentioned. They are made by ART which is an OEM piston supplier, which is a good thing.

The bore place will do the final hone, just clean the heck out of it after. I would use the method I previously described. Any local shop should be able to handle it. I would make sure they have a wet stone machine hone, not a cheapo or a hand help one. The cost might be around $60.00.

They might be less than amused if you bring it to them all grungy, lol.



OK, now for assembly and break in…I’m getting ready to duck.

I would NOT use synthetic oil. I would use std non synthetic motorcycle oil. Valvoline is available at most auto stores. Joe Gibbs break in oil is good but needs to be changed quickly.

I use a thin coat of the engine oil, others do something different. If the engine is going to sit for a few weeks or more before start up I use engine or ring assembly oil.

I typically let them idle high for 3, 15 minute cycles with a fan blowing on them before riding.

If you want further break in suggestions just ask, I’m sure you’ll get lots of good info.

[barnett468]

CYL/PISTON CLEARANCE - Shindy says to use OEM specs. I think DohcBikes has them. I would probably bore it to around .0015” and the ring gap should be ok as is but I would check it and use around .012”.

The more clearance you give things, the closer they are to being worn out.

[DohcBikes]

Hold on there Redsox.

I DO have the stock specs. Your cylinder, after getting the new measurements, is useable. There is not a single measurement that falls outside the service limit on the cylinder. Even the .03mm taper is acceptable. As a matter of FACT lol... it looks like a regularly, minimally worn cylinder to me. By the way, we need six measurements. Three on one axis, three on another, to determine out of round as well.

The problem here is, you must have gone to NASA to pic up your micrometer lol.....

Metric mics do not normally read ten thousandths.

So we may need some revised information again. We need the measurement of the piston as well. Let's keep at is until we figure out what's really going on here.

[redsox]

ok. well, thats good, right? this bore gauge is pretty high speed. its on loan. i'll get the other measurements tonight. top, middle, and bottom, 90 degrees from each other? that makes sense. i'll also measure the piston. sorry again. this must be painful to the reader. its all new to me so its slow going.


the piston is shindy, and the kit looks pretty good. i'm not ordering anything till i figure out what i really need.

[DohcBikes]

Its not painful dude its refreshing lol... you are getting us all the info we need and being patient and diligent.

Yes that's good news! If the piston is decent you can ring it, very lightly hone it, and go for it.

Once we get the measurements double checked and added to I'll post up the math and the service limits. So far all the mic says is that it ain't a brand spankin new cylinder, but its not too bad. There's a slight "barrel" taper to it, but not close to service limits.

[barnett468]

Hello redsox;


Just curious, EXACTLY how far down from the top are you measuring. It should be 1/4" below where the black carbon line is/was. This is because the rings do not come up above the bottom edge of the black carbon line, therefore, the area where the carbon line is/was, will be SMALLER than the area 1/4" below it.

[barnett468]

OK here's a challenge. Since the competency if your dial calipers has been brought into question, if they have a lock knob, you can give us the readings then lock the calipers at each of those readings and measure the calipers with your new handy dandy NASA grade bore measuring device. Move it in the caliper jaws until you get the SMALLEST reading.

[fabiodriven]

I don't even know what's still available for these, but did you price OEM? That's if you need a new top end.

[redsox]

OK here's a challenge. Since the competency if your dial calipers has been brought into question, if they have a lock knob, you can give us the readings then lock the calipers at each of those readings and measure the calipers with your new handy dandy NASA grade bore measuring device. Move it in the caliper jaws until you get the SMALLEST reading.

i'll try that challenge tomorrow, good sir.

i assure you, it is operator error, and not the equipment. I am, however, learning. i spent some time tonight getting more familiar with these gauges. i went back to square one and zero'd everything. then i took measurements at the top (approx 1/4 inch down), middle, and bottom. then i did the same, except at 90 degrees. All of my measurements jived with last nights. Again, everything in mm.

top #1 - 65.003 top #2 - 65.023 - out of round .02

mid#1 - 65.029 mid#2 - 65.035 - out of round .006

bot #1 - 65.023 Bot #2 - 64.995 - out of round .028

i feel pretty confident in these numbers. i don't know about NASA, but the gauge is serious business. its cool, and I now have a far better understanding of how it works and what i'm measuring. Getting a zero, and then subtracting your gauge reading from that number to get your measurement. pretty neat.

If these numbers are correct, which they are, then i think i'm within the wear limit. Correct? I had limited time tonight. i'll measure the piston and the shoulder pin tomorrow.

[DohcBikes]

top #1 - 65.003 top #2 - 65.023 - out of round .02

mid#1 - 65.029 mid#2 - 65.035 - out of round .006

bot #1 - 65.023 Bot #2 - 64.995 - out of round .028

i feel pretty confident in these numbers.

If these numbers are correct, which they are, then i think i'm within the wear limit. Correct? MM in thousandths, as requested. Damn fine work. Cylinder "looks" nice... when you give us good measurements, we can "see" it. Looking forward to piston measurements.

Wrist pin. Its a wrist pin. And the White Sox are the Sox....:beer

[barnett468]

iIf these numbers are correct, which they are, then i think i'm within the wear limit. Correct?Hello redsox;

Yes, however, if they were less, your rings might seal better and last longer, but you "can" run it like that.




I assure you, it is operator error, and not the equipment.I was simply being kind and offering you a graceful out, I would have taken it, lol.




i took measurements at the top (approx 1/4 inch down)…This measurement should be around 1/4” BELOW the black carbon ring, which would make it around 1/2” down from the top, but you said it had no ridge and the other specs are ok so I’ll let you off the hook.


.001" out of round = good

.0008” taper = good


You can run this cyl with just a GOOD hand hone, however, if you need a new piston, depending on how close the Shindy piston is to oem size, it might be a little tighter or a little looser, no big deal.

I would NOT use a ball hone or any hand held hone however. Unless the 3 blade hand hone is new, the blades are likely not perfectly flat. This is BAD mmkay?

A new HIGH QUALITY 3 blade hand hone will reduce the taper if PROPERLY used, but it will not reduce the out of round.

If you have a REAL shop hone it on a $3000.00 hone. It will reduce the taper AND out of round to around .0002” or less.

It will also increase the largest part of the cyl by only around .0002” or less if the guy is good and lucky.

Truing the cyl like this will help insure proper ring seating and prolong ring life, however, it might cost $30.00 to do.

Even though your cyl is within spec, if you need a new piston, I would bore it since this will tighten up the piston clearance and it will only cost around $30.00 more. Also, it will still leave you 4 more bores to go.

[redsox]

I don't even know what's still available for these, but did you price OEM? That's if you need a new top end.

they're obtainible, and not priced bad at all. I dont think i'm going to need much. we'll see.


If it were mine, I'd have the bore and piston measured. If a hone is all it needs and it's a factory piston, I'd hone it, re-ring it, and throw it back together. If it needed a bore then I'd have it bored and use a Honda piston. Just how I'd go about it personally.

words of wisdom.

[redsox]

I would NOT use a ball hone or any hand held hone however. Unless the 3 blade hand hone is new, the blades are likely not perfectly flat. This is BAD mmkay?

I have a nice snap-on 3 blade thats never been used. DYING to use it. should suffice.

[redsox]

small update. sorry it's been awhile. been cold, and i've been busy, and lazy. i've gotten a bunch done. waiting on a couple parts before reassembly. i might have screwed up a bit. i've been rocking the manual and goin' step by step, but i jumped the gun and lapped the valves. then i read that you shouldn't lap the valves. just when you think you're doing well, the japanese coat the valves with some special mojo and you accidentally junk your engine with valve compound. although i am now a master of the micrometer, even I can't unlap a valve. i have the other head with valves intact, but i don't think switching is the best idea. did i do irreparable damage? everything seems kosher. suggestions?

[barnett468]

I would NOT use a ball hone or any hand held hone however. Unless the 3 blade hand hone is new, the blades are likely not perfectly flat. This is BAD mmkay?

I have a nice snap-on 3 blade thats never been used. DYING to use it. should suffice.Hello redsox;

You are using selective quoting now, lol. I suggest if you are that anxious to use it, you try it out on your neighbor’s noisy dog and get your cylinder honed as I suggested earlier.

http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-laughing025.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys.php)





A new HIGH QUALITY 3 blade hand hone will reduce the taper if PROPERLY used, but it will not reduce the out of round.

If you have a REAL shop hone it on a $3000.00 hone. It will reduce the taper AND out of round to around .0002” or less.

It will also increase the largest part of the cyl by only around .0002” or less if the guy is good and lucky.

Truing the cyl like this will help insure proper ring seating and prolong ring life, however, it might cost $30.00 to do.

In addition to the FACTS mentioned above, it is also a FACT [people love when I do that] that your 3 blade hone will INCREASE the size of your bore. The more clearance the piston has beyond the spec for a new bore, the quicker it, the cylinder, and the rings, will wear out at a progressive [not linear] rate.

For ONLY around $30.00, you have the RARE opportunity to have that sucker almost like new.

Why settle for “It will suffice” like lots of others do when you can have It is G R E A T!

Ok, I'm done being obnoxious for the moment.
http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-laughing013.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys.php)



PS – What do you think of my new annoying little yellow and green laughing guys?

I have a sad looking baby fur seal too if you prefer that.

Hi Mr. redsox, I am a sad looking baby for seal, and the reason I look sad is because I heard that you plan to "cheap out", and Mickey Mouse honing your cylinder that could be restored back to almost new [with the exception of that cylinder fin that broke because you got impatient an W A I L E D on it with a 5 lb sledge hammar] if honed with the PROPER tool. Of course the fact that it's hunting season and for some reason there are a bunch of Eskimos standing around holding long 2 x 4's with a bunch of long sharp pointy things sticking out of one end causes me a bit of concern too at the moment.

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTPVl94GrqAajvACcWSWBuCH4Hr1ehM_ b2Mu35gKuNf00fTPAdNX-Dhgl4

[barnett468]

POST ADDITION

Is there a way one can click "Like" on their own posts?

http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-laughing025.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys.php) http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-laughing025.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys.php) http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-laughing025.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys.php)


I have no edit button.

[DohcBikes]

Could you possible show us a detailed picture of your valves?

[barnett468]

i might have screwed up a bit. i've been rocking the manual and goin' step by step, but i jumped the gun and lapped the valves.Hello redsox;


It is a BAD idea to run new valves on a used seat BECAUSE, the seats are ground a certain width and certain angle and the surface of that angle is FLAT.

At an idle speed of just 1000 rpm’s, each valve beats the cr_p out of the seat at a rate of 8.333 times per second or 500 times per minute and vise versa. At an average cruising rpm of around 3000, each valve beats the cr_p out of the seat at a rate of 25 times per second, or 1500 times per minute.

After the valves beat the cr_p out of the seats on and off over a period of around 27 years etc., the seat becomes less than an ideal "sealing" surface.

If you are/were able to lap the valves to a point that they do/did seal, they still will NOT last as long as they would if you were to have the seats re-cut.




then i read that you shouldn't lap the valves. …the japanese coat the valves with some special mojo and you accidentally junk your engine with valve compound.Nope, lapping new Japanese valves will NOT "junk" your engine. Simply scrub the seating surface of the valve with a brass “toothbrush” and carb cleaner, then brake cleaner, and they will be un-mojoed and have no compound left on them. AFTER the seats are PROPERLY cut, you can lap them in again with fine compound and it will easily clean off.




even I can't unlap a valve.Sure you can, just by some “unlapping” compound then turn them in the opposite direction from which you used to lap them with.




did i do irreparable damage?To what, your cylinder, your valves or your cat by throwing the poor thing out in the snow simply because it kept trying to lay on top of you while you were sleepin so it could get warm?

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQDDXJVtJZly7RV-kR09qmC4Cij-nlqkaud9AICSneimgmR4SxTUviGsTwn




i am now a master of the micrometer,That’s good, because you’ll need that expertise when you are measuring how far out of round and tapered and possibly BIGGER your cylinder is after you use your hand held hone on it.




everything seems kosher.Everything EXCEPT for your cylinder honing plan AND your valve seats in my “humble” opinion.




suggestions?Sure.



PS – Perhaps you like my baby pig photo more than the others. I named her “Bacon”.

Hi, my name is Bacon. Aren’t I cute?

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTDheK_NT7A9cIdJnV_1Pg7lGbLDWNu5 AVQnY60FToKElt_Wip72n1nHA

[Keith Salyer]

I like this thread so bump it up

[redsox]

well, i thought i'd update, and kind of put this thread to rest. i haven't posted much lately, but i've been wrenching when i can. i got everything measured. i was pretty happy that everything was within limits. i got everything together pretty nicely. i realized that the stator cover was busted and repaired previously, so i grabbed one from member papa250r with a rickystator. its in nice shape and powder coated so i was way happy. after some timing trial and error i got things right and she runs nice. been going through a nice easy break-in over the weekend and she should be ready to ride soon. i replaced the rear shock while the engine was out and now, if everything is good with the engine, it should be a pretty capable rider. i'm happy. thanks to everyone who helped. it was a real learning experience. i know its not the space shuttle, but i think its cool to be able to do this. still learning at 38 years old!! can't wait to see how it performs in the woods..

[DohcBikes]

Glad to know its working! Good job.

[fabiodriven]

Awesome Dan. Rory was putting the bug in my ear about riding soon.

[redsox]

Awesome Dan. Rory was putting the bug in my ear about riding soon.

i'm ready!! make it happen captn'.


Glad to know its working! Good job.

appreciate all your help my friend. thanks for the patience.

[Dirtcrasher]

^ You don't have a damn COB-WEB like I do!!, :lol: Yes we need to get things together too, FABZ and I spoke recently and mentioned how tight this late winter is hurting us. We gotta get outside!!