200x starting problems

[joenovosel]

i posted in the nw member forum but not too much help. Ive got an 85 200x when its cold outside it will take me around 100 kicks to get it started, after its warmed up it will start up ok. Im not sure why its such a pain when its cold. Any help please

[yaegerb]

Welcome to the site. Your issue is too generic for people to answer. Can you tell us what you have worked on yet? 100 kicks (I hope that is an exaggeration) is way too many kicks. A properly tuned/running 200x should start in no less than 5. Always start with the FAS principle: Fuel, Air, Spark.
Fuel
An easy issue to check first is your fuel lines and your carburetor. Have you ensured that your fuel lines are unblocked (fuel flowing freely) into the carb and that you are using fresh gas? Another to-do item for these almost 30 year old machines is to rebuild the carburetor. Shindy sells very inexpensive kits on ebay for the OEM 24MM Keihin carb.
Air
Almost always overlooked is the air filter unit on these machines. If you haven't already, spend the money on a quality airfilter like a UNI or a K&N. A properly oiled UNI or K&N will deliver consistent, fresh air to this machine.
Spark
Unscrew your sparkplug from the head, leave it in the boot and ground it to the side of the 200x head. Turn off all lights in your garage. Can you see a FAT BLUE spark? You will instantly see if you have enough spark or not. If not, then you may have an electrical issue and not enough spark to ignite your fuel. If that's the case, let us know...there are lots of good ATC electricians on this site...ahem...KBOnly...ahem.

Another item to note.....
I would also ensure that you have re-set valve lash on the machine as improperly set valves can cause erratic starting and running behaviors.

Let us know the progress on any of the above items. Narrowing down to one of them will help us help you.

[joenovosel]

These things will help a lot. I haven't done anything to it yet. I rode it this summer with no problems. This last weekend we took it out and that's when I noticed the starting problem. Sadly no not exaggerating it was close to 100 kicks to get it going. But once it was warmed up. It would only take one or two kicks to start.

[slashfan7964]

Mine was that way for a while. It took like 30 kicks after sitting for over a year. Once it was warmed up it would fire the first kick without issue.

[tri again]

Mine was that way for a while. It took like 30 kicks after sitting for over a year. Once it was warmed up it would fire the first kick without issue.
Was that gas a year old too?
I seems to have the best luck with fresh gas.

[JustEnough]

When was the last valve adjustment? I think that is what it needs.

[barnett468]

is it significsantly colder outside now out than it was before?

what is themp wgere you are trying to start it?


how much chioke is required for cold start?

how much choke do you use if amy to start it when it is cold?


do you have some flammaBLE BRAKE CLEANER OR STARTING FLUID ETC THAT YOU CAN SORAY IN THERE WHEN IT IS COLD TO SEE IF IT STARTS?

IF YIUR GAS IS APPLE JUICE COLOR OR DARKER IT IS TOO OLD AND/OR DISCOLORED FROM RUST IN THE TANK.

IF GAS IS A YEAR OLD OR MORE I WOULD REPLACE IT AS OTHERS SUGGESTED.


p

[barnett468]

What is the air temp where you are trying to start it?

[barnett468]

Are you giving it any throttle when you are trying to start it cold?

If so how much?

Next time you kick it 10 times when the bike is cold and it does not start remove plug and see if it is wet. If it is dry you have a fuel delivery prob.

[joenovosel]

I found out the air inlet tube, from the filter to the carb. Fell off by the filter and melted a hole in it. Im pretty sure i got dirt in the carb so i pulled it off and cleaned it out. The smaller jet, pilot jet i think its called was clogged but is now clean. I got the bike from a shop and before they sold it they rebuilt the carb,petcock and cleaned the tank. Its got nice clean gas in it and now the fuel is flowin good. After i cleaded the carb i kicked it about 15 times with the choke on halfway still nothing, pulled plug and its wet. But its pretty blackish brownish? The temp has been around 40-50 dropping this week to 20s. Usually if not winter time i use half or no choke. Winter half to full. Ill pump the gas a couple times when starting. Never have held it while starting.

[oscarmayer]

try startign w/o the choke. and try startign w/o touching the throttle during start.
change the plug as it coudl have been dround and is now bad.

[joenovosel]

The plug is my next guess. I havent adjusted the valves. I have no idea how to do it.

[El Camexican]

Sadly no not exaggerating it was close to 100 kicks to get it going.

Have you measured the diameter of your right and left calves and thighs to see if there is a noticeable difference between the two since getting this trike?
181634

[yaegerb]

The plug is my next guess. I havent adjusted the valves. I have no idea how to do it.

Send me your email address and I will send you a manual and then you can properly adjust your valves. Also you will need to check for spark as this is sounding more like a weak spark issue. Does it excessively smoke on start up or while running?

[slashfan7964]

Was that gas a year old too?
I seems to have the best luck with fresh gas.

Yeah, I drained what I could and got it running. Burned the last of the bad crap through it then it was fine.

It was even worse after it sat for almost 8. Really should take the carburetor apart and clean it.

[barnett468]

is your carb stock?

if no then what is it if you know?

what size is your pilot jet?

so it was taking 100 kicks, yoiu found your pilot jet was plugged, you cleaned it and now after 10 kicks it still fdoes not start and the plug is wet and looks crummy?


let us know after you do the things above.

the spsark should be blu color but it is often a uyellow color on these old bikes which dies niot ifnite the fuel as easily. its a bit hard for me to exolain how a spark that is too weak to start your bike looks like. maybe some else can.

anyway, it has enough spark to start when its warm so hopefully it is still enougfh to start it now that your jet is clean.

depenfding upon the results of the test dsuggesred above you might need to put a smaller pilot jet in and lower the neeedle a bit.

a stock plug is an 8 heat range, i would install a 7 to see if that helps then a 6 to see if that helps more. i would run a 6 plug for long if it is warmer than around 45 degrees outside.

what heat range is your plug currently?

[barnett468]

see how far your air screw is turned out from full in. i think it should be around 1 1/2. below is a free online factory service manual. might take 5 minutes to load.

[joenovosel]

Email is joenovos3798@gmail.com it usually smokes some when starting it up once its warmed up its pretty good.

[barnett468]

is it extremely dark smoke or is it very light gray?

[joenovosel]

Update...got a new plug, half choke barely touching throttle and it fires up two kicks. Running real rough. Popping. Not staying running without me feathering throttle. And putting out light grey smoke. When given more gas it stays lighter grey smoke. Pulled new plug and it is black. Only ran it for about ten minutes,if that. Also noted where the muffler connects to the pipe there looks like a clamp and most likely some sort of gasket was there but is now gone. Any one know what that is?

[slashfan7964]

Sounds like it's burning bad fuel. Mine did exactly that (but ran ok otherwise) until all the s*** gas was burned through it. Then the smoke went away and it ran fine apart from small idle issues.

[barnett468]

ok is this when the emgine is hot or cold?

if this is with the engine hot then did it do this before when it was hot?

i would do the following for now.

clean the old plug or try another in case your new one is cracked.

unless something unusual happened and your coil or cdi suddenly went out it is fuel related.

unscrew the spark plug cap, clip 1/4" off the wire then reconnect it.

check float level.

once you set your air screw try a pilot jewt that is 2 sizes smaller.
try a pilot jet

[joenovosel]

Another question. Where and how do you get the feeler gauge to check valves? Is there a easy way to tell if i got the motor tdc?

[JustEnough]

Best way to tell that you are TDC is to have both valve covers off and you will see that the rockers are not moving as you pass the TDC mark.

This should help:

http://www.3wheeler.org/dirtwheels/6-87~tuneupindex.html

[barnett468]

buy the feeler gauge at any auto parts store. use the freeonline manual i posted for you if you need it.

basically, remove plug on ignition side cover.

remove large hex caps on cyl head.

remove spark plug.

stick expendable finger lightly in spark plug hole.

turn eng over with kick starter at moderate speed until you feel a LOT of pressure coming out hole.

stop when you feel pressure.

turn eng over slowly as you watch for top dead center mark in ignition hole.

stop when you see the "T". this means top.

the "F" which is very close to the "T" means FIRE.

set the valves to spec.

recheck them after you tighten the nut because the clearance might change sl;ightly.

the fact that you say your starts and runs perfect when it is warm suggests your valves are not too tight. a tight valve could cause a popping sound.
your popping sound should be caused by something else.

[joenovosel]

Well. Been out freezing in the garage this morning working on it. Cleaned the plug. Cleaned the carb again. Put a k&n filter on it. Re adjusted the carb. Kicked it on half choke barely touching the gas she fired up after three kicks. Not bad considering its 22 degrees and snowing right now. Had to then let it warm up and adjust the idle. While cold and giving gas light bluish grey smoke, not alot. Once watmed up clear and running good again.

gotta say thanks for all the help guys. I was going nuts with this thing.

[yaegerb]

Blueish gray on start up would be your valve seals. When you decide to put a new top end (piston, rings) I would go ahead and put new valve seals on the motor and you will eliminate that smoke on start up.

[barnett468]

what heat range plug is it?

what heat range was the old one.

black on the plug is also ridiculously rich especially sinvce it occured safter only a few minutes.

it also can occur when the gas is old but you said it is new.

that thing is ridiculously rich and it will likely give you problems starting and running when the weather warms up.

i would do what i suggfested earloier.

[joenovosel]

The plug continues to get black when i run it then will not start. I clipped the end of the spark plug cable. The air screw is the one on the out side of the float bowl correct? If so i turned it all the way in then backed it out 1 1/2 turns. Since ive had it its only sat maybe 2-3 months with gas in it. It has new gas in it fuel filter is clean and easy to blow through. Once i pull the plug and clean it off it fires right up with 1-2 kicks. Would the air/fuel be different now i went from stock air filter to a k&n?

[oscarmayer]

post a photo of the plug. it could be oil blow by, or a dirty carb that is pouring fuel down the throat of the engine.

[beets442]

A turn and a half out is a good starter point to a fine tune.This is the way I tune my carbs and everyone has their way but this is mine.
When you get it started,turn airscrew IN til it starts to run rough and back OUT slowly til it runs at its highest RPM,then back IN a 1/4 turn.
Idle should be a little high,turn it down too. Hit throttle and the rpm should drop quickly to a good idle.
Put an inline fuel filter on if it doesnt have one.
Hope this helps.

[joenovosel]

That does help alot. After I clipped the coil wire(hopefully i did the right one) i can't get it to start. I've got good fuel flow. I pulled the plug and pt it against the head kicked it over a few times and I have a real faint spark that is only going every once in a while. Maybe 2 time in 10-15 kicks. It's barely visible. I'm not sure how to tell heat range of plugs. all I know is it's the ngk plug the manual says. It's a 8lms or something. I'm about ready to get rid of this dang bike!!

[yaegerb]

Try to adjust your pulse air gap setting since your spark is so weak. It will be in the manual I sent you and I have also pasted a picture of the procedure below.

182265

[tri again]

That does help alot. After I clipped the coil wire(hopefully i did the right one) i can't get it to start. I've got good fuel flow. I pulled the plug and pt it against the head kicked it over a few times and I have a real faint spark that is only going every once in a while. Maybe 2 time in 10-15 kicks. It's barely visible. I'm not sure how to tell heat range of plugs. all I know is it's the ngk plug the manual says. It's a 8lms or something. I'm about ready to get rid of this dang bike!!

NOOOOOOOO no no, I know that feeling.
You'll get it, we always do and when it runs right, you'll want a few more.
Hang in there.

[joenovosel]

Alright I checked the pulse air gap its good. I'm going to buy a new coil and see if that helps.

[barnett468]

Hello;


Where is kbonly?

The coil wire I suggested you should clip is the one attached to the spark plug. Unscrew the boot on the plug end and clip it 1/4”

The carb screw I mentioned is on the bottom in the front, see photo in 4-8 in the manual below. The manual might take up to 5 minutes to load.

http://www.oscarmayer.net/atc/manuals/honda/atc200x_83-85_servicemanual.pdf

clean every single ground and ignition related connector on the bike. If it still does not spoark properly I would do the following.

this is from my bad memory so there might be an error.

if the new ign coil does not fix it and your spark is still intermittent you might have a bad cdi.

Check the coils in the stator with an ohm meter per manual above

The lower the readings the less voltage they produce.

As long as they are within around 30% of the factory spec they still seem to work. Basically as long as they are not broken they seem to work.

Check the voltage of the ign one in the stator while kicking it. It should be around 45v but they rarely are and seem to still run if they are as low as around 28v.

If your cdi is bad you can get a Chinese one from ebay for 5.00. kbonly and some others can tell you how to wire it or do a search here for kbonly or cdi.

If your stator coil is good and your new coil does not fix it BUT you do finally get consistent but very weak spark then the magnets in your stator are likely bad.

Yes, this is a virtually unknown problem. They lose some magnetism after 28 years. Once they lose some magnetism they generate a less power magnet field etc. the reduced strength of the magnet field basically reduces the spark at the spark plug.

These bikes had a brite blue spark at the plug when new. There are many here that have changed everything or tested everything and it was all in spec but they still had a soft or lazy yellow spark and didn’t know why.

If you need a new flywheel I think the following might have one, I found one 2 days ago.

partzilla.com

xtremeusa.com

ronayers.com

cmsnl.com

You can also re-magnetize yours a little with neodymium magnets. You can get them from ebay or maybe a computer supply store.

[barnett468]

i forgot to mention

clean the electrode in your plug.

check the gap, it should be .024" - .028"

If .020" is less than it currently is would set it to that as a temporary test.

lay the plug and look at spark before and after, even if you see no difference give it a try.

the narrower the gap the less voltage it takes to make it fire.

let us know what happens.

it will not hurt your bike to run with a narrower gap because it reduces the temp of the plug slightly because it take less voltage to fire.

a plug with a "thin wire" electrode might also work slightly better.

[joenovosel]

I may have messed up the coil wire. I couldnt see where it would come off the boot end by the plug so i unscrewed it from the coil and clipped that end. I most likely messed it up and did it wrong i think. Before i clipped this end it would fire up on 1-2 kicks with the plug cleaned. The plug was getting black every time i started it and ran it for maybe 10 min. Trial and error i guess. I think i adjusted the air screw 1 1/2 turns out. And hopefully it will not turn my plugs black once i get a new coil. Ill be ordering one tomorrow. Other than the black plug it was running awesome vefore i clipped the wrong end of the coil wire. So i dont think the cdi or anything else is bad. I cleaned the plug started it up after itsat for 4 days in 12degree weather in 1 kick. Then i adjusted the air screw and clipped the wire and now it wont fire.

[barnett468]

one easy to test it is to

remove the spark plug.

unscrew coli wore at coil.

stick 1 finger in the coil and 1 on the engine.

kick it over gently, would should get a small jolt.

if you kick it hard you should get a moderate jolt, it won't kill you and is completely harmless, i have done it dozens of times..of times...of times...oh, sorry.

if you kick it hard and do mot get a moderate jolt you are not getting as much juice as you should.

you can also take the easy way out and clip the wire again or try a different one. a car wire will work if you have the top of the plug that threads on.

[Dirtcrasher]

Does your thumb over the spark plug hole get blown off??

Most people don't have a compression tester but that is rule #1 and why many motors will start if you "pop" start them.

You can "Ohms test" the coil with a analog meter and fresh batteries......

[joenovosel]

Ok. I took the coil off my big red and tried but nothing. It fired up then died. It seems like its getting intermittent spark. When I hold it to the head it sparks every 6-7 kicks. I don't see how it has changed so much after only cleaning the carb again. What do you guys use to adjust the air screw with it on the bike?

[joenovosel]

Can I use the cdi from my big red to see if its the cdi?