250r steel clutch plate ?

[3wheelrider]

Not sure if this is a dumb question but: I bought some NEW steel clutch plates for my R but- These have the small (dimples-for lack of a better word) on the contact area. (Just like the OEM ones on the semi-auto ATCs). However,-the stock OEM 250R ones are smooth of course. Will these dimples cause drag or plates to stick? Or are they OK to use? Anyone use them before for a manual clutch?

[3wheelrider]

181192-
Not sure if it causes plates to hold oil & stick/grab? (when you pull in the clutch & move the trike). Not sure -since on the manual clutches the plates do not come with this from the factory- Are they not a problem?-(for those who have used them)

[RIDE-RED 250r]

I have not used them, but I don't see what it would hurt to run them. They will only be in contact with the friction discs and not in direct contact with the basket or pressure plate gripping surfaces. About the only thing that could happen as far as I can see is possibly shorter friction disc life...I wouldn't hesitate to give them a try.

My guess is they are textured to reduce slippage... Whether it really works or is just a gimmick remains to be determined until someone who has run them chimes in.

[yaegerb]

Steel's are dimpled like that for better friction. When I put new steel's in any bike dimpled or not I always glass bead both sides of each steel plate. Provides better friction and longer steel/fiber plate life.

[jeswinehart]

Yep, like Yeager said. You don't want smooth steel plates, you want ruff'd up ones (just not warped).

[3wheelrider]

I understand the dimples add friction, but when you pull in the clutch you dont want friction. The steel plates slide against the friction plates when you pull in the clutch. So I was wondering if it was ok- (since the NEW OEM ones are smooth not dimpled & not shiny of course). Was wondering if the dimples had a negative effect as far as drag or maybe even causing plates to stick-since the OEMs are not designed that way- curious question thats all thanx.

[yaegerb]

Again, no, the dimples on the plates are not a negative attribute. Now I am curious....what mfg did you buy from?

[Dirtcrasher]

When you pull in your clutch, there is NO contact. Or you would be creeping forwards.....

Please tell me who made that clutch??

[RIDE-RED 250r]

Im kind of curious who makes those plates as well. I have not seen plates with that pattern of texturing before either. Plates I have bought just had kind of a cross-hatch pattern to the surface like you would get if you resurfaced a head on a pane of glass with sandpaper to check for warpage.

[3wheelrider]

LOL- "SUMO" I think-cant find the link on EBAY now. I had them in for a ride but the gears would jam in. I'm thinkin it was due to the straight 30w oil tho. (I usually dont put that in). I couldnt roll the bike in gear with engine off too- the inner pressure plate was definetly pushing out enough. But clutch wouldnt release cause plates were dragging it seems. I know centrifical force seperates them but it didnt seem to be happening. Outer basket is OK. Assembly is correct. Gonna try some ATF type F or 10w-30 oil. I have a feeling its was due to the SAE 30 oil but we'll see.... Waiting on new OEM clutch springs since the "SUMO" ones (& other brands) are too stiff /long! Aftermarket crap sucks 90% of the time!

[yaegerb]

Yes, sounds like a cheaper brand. I learned my lesson a long time ago. I only use OEM or Barnett plates.

[Dirtcrasher]

Sumo is for wrestlers......

[wonderboy]

The OEM plates I bought for my 350x had the dimples. Dimples are a good thing. Realize that there is no raised metal around the dimple, it is a carefully made depression so it isn't going to "dig in" to the fibers or anything. The dimples are there to hold oil. Oil in a wet clutch is a good thing.

[3wheelrider]

Heres an ad for TRX

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Honda-Complete-Clutch-Kit-TRX-250-R-1988-1989-Friction-Steel-Plates-Springs-/330986081667?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item4d104ecd83

I took a chance on THIS over TUSK. I prefer OEM yes-but $60 for just the steel plates. -I really couldnt swing it so.....
I still had the stock '85 alum. plates on-lol

[El Camexican]

Oil in a wet clutch is a good thing.

I respectfully disagree.

Oil is the last thing you want on any clutch, but it’s there in this case because running clutches internally is cheaper, quieter and cleaner than running a dry clutch and on an ATV that is subject to mud and water it is a must to house the clutch. That is why all fiber plates have groves to allow the oil to be wiped off and flung out of the pack as the springs are released. If they didn’t your clutch would never lock up. You’ll also notice that there is never any oil pumped into a clutch assembly intentionally and the baskets are never immersed in oil, they only dip in enough to throw some oil around the inside of the cover to lube the gears on that side of the case that drive the clutch, water pump, exhaust control etc.

The dimples on the plates don’t do anything useful and there is no noticeable difference between dimpled and non-dimpled when riding. I suspect that dimpling is done as part of a stress reliving process to the sheet metal the plates are made from. Too much to get into here, but in short the flatness of your steel plates and more so their ability to remain flat when heated up are the most critical aspects of their function. Look at OEM clutch plates and you’ll find both dimpled and smooth as well as aluminum plates.

He needs to lose that 30 weight oil, get a set of stock springs and see if the clutch works. If after properly adjusting it he can’t find neutral, or if the clutch is dragging he needs to check the plates for flatness, hot spots or any other defects and change out the bad ones.
.

[RIDE-RED 250r]

Check basket fingers for grooves too.

[wonderboy]

I respectfully disagree.

Oil is the last thing you want on any clutch, but it’s there in this case because running clutches internally is cheaper, quieter and cleaner than running a dry clutch and on an ATV that is subject to mud and water it is a must to house the clutch. That is why all fiber plates have groves to allow the oil to be wiped off and flung out of the pack as the springs are released. If they didn’t your clutch would never lock up. You’ll also notice that there is never any oil pumped into a clutch assembly intentionally and the baskets are never immersed in oil, they only dip in enough to throw some oil around the inside of the cover to lube the gears on that side of the case that drive the clutch, water pump, exhaust control etc.

The dimples on the plates don’t do anything useful and there is no noticeable difference between dimpled and non-dimpled when riding. I suspect that dimpling is done as part of a stress reliving process to the sheet metal the plates are made from. Too much to get into here, but in short the flatness of your steel plates and more so their ability to remain flat when heated up are the most critical aspects of their function. Look at OEM clutch plates and you’ll find both dimpled and smooth as well as aluminum plates.

He needs to lose that 30 weight oil, get a set of stock springs and see if the clutch works. If after properly adjusting it he can’t find neutral, or if the clutch is dragging he needs to check the plates for flatness, hot spots or any other defects and change out the bad ones.
.

You are TOTALLY correct about needing to squeeze the oil out from between the plates as the clutch grabs. But there is quite a bit more too it.

For sure, the clutch on our machines IS designed to be oiled continuously. Again, you are correct that the clutch isn't dipping in it (or submerged), but oil is in fact pumped through the shaft that the clutch rides on and is spun centrifugally outwards through the plates. It is the only way for oil to get between the plates during running.

There is a lot going on with the oil in the clutch pack. It pulls heat out of the clutch as it spins out, it keeps the friction surfaces from wearing quickly, and it has a big effect on the clutch enagement as the plates come together. It helps provide the initial friction prior to the oil getting pushed out in the final stage of clutch engagement. Oil plays a pretty critical role for the actual enagement of the clutch initially. The clutch IS designed with the oil in mind and without it, the clutch would not work as we have come to expect.

I'll dig up the SAE paper on wet clutches when I can find it and I'll attach it here. It'll make for some interesting bathroom reading material (just don't wipe with it...) :)

[El Camexican]

You are TOTALLY correct about needing to squeeze the oil out from between the plates as the clutch grabs. But there is quite a bit more too it.

For sure, the clutch on our machines IS designed to be oiled continuously. Again, you are correct that the clutch isn't dipping in it (or submerged), but oil is in fact pumped through the shaft that the clutch rides on and is spun centrifugally outwards through the plates. It is the only way for oil to get between the plates during running.

There is a lot going on with the oil in the clutch pack. It pulls heat out of the clutch as it spins out, it keeps the friction surfaces from wearing quickly, and it has a big effect on the clutch enagement as the plates come together. It helps provide the initial friction prior to the oil getting pushed out in the final stage of clutch engagement. Oil plays a pretty critical role for the actual enagement of the clutch initially. The clutch IS designed with the oil in mind and without it, the clutch would not work as we have come to expect.

I'll dig up the SAE paper on wet clutches when I can find it and I'll attach it here. It'll make for some interesting bathroom reading material (just don't wipe with it...) :)

I look forward to seeing that paper, but for now (and at the risk of looking like a fool if that paper contradicts what I type here) I will get on my soapbox and proclaim that I have never seen any transmission or clutch on a single cylinder engine that was fed by a pressurized oil system. Maybe some of the new stuff does, but the older engines I’m more acquainted with get their lube from splashed oil that drips back down from the top end or is just flung off the gears (2 stroke). I will agree that the oil helps cool the clutch, and makes the transition from open to closed a little less abrupt than a dry clutch like those found on a Ducati, but by no means does it increase the lifespan of the clutch by an amount that is worth the amount that its presence inside the cases decreases the life of the engine which is forced to share the filth that the clutch leaves in the oil.

The drilled holes in the backs of the baskets, the grooved washers on the clutch bearings and the holes in the inner hubs on my big boars have always appeared to have been situated in ways that facilitate the escape of oil from the assembly, not to introduce it. Evidence of this was always visible when I would take the clutches apart as the worn plate material left patterns like spray paint were it was exiting the rotating assemblies.

I do agree that some clutches are designed to work within oily environments, but only as a compromise to facilitate heat removal, noise reduction, bearing lubrication and protection from dirt and water, not as any sort of benefit to the action, or life span of the clutch plates. If oiling the clutch plates had any benefit at all then cars, trucks, Ducati’s and such would use them wet. The only place I see clutch plates in oil are in applications like our rides and automatic transmissions where there is a benefit to having them in oil that outweighs the benefit of running them dry.

[barnett468]

I'm thinkin it was due to the straight 30w oil tho.get oil for wet clutch engines at the auto store or motorcycle shops.



I know centrifical force seperates them but it didnt seem to be happening.not exactly completely sort of. if your clutch drags slightly when pushing it around in gear with the engine off it will drag less when the oil is hot.

[barnett468]

drags less with a warm engine than a cold one.

no edit button

[barnett468]

MAIN PURPOSE OF AN OIL BATH CLUTCH - The oil cools the clutch.


PURPOSE OF DIMPLES ON CLUTCH PLATES - the main purpose is to trap oil. this trapped oil does the following:

1. keeps clutch cooler

2. causes plates to separate easier when clutch is pulled.

3. causes smoother engagement.

4. reduces potential for clutch chatter when releasing clutch slowly.

5. reduces clutch squeal like the tecates have when releasing clutch. japan gave me several different fiber plates to try and the ones I ended up using were the best overall. Its not like they never made a clutch before geez.

6. INCREASES POTENTIAL FOR CLUTCH SLIPPAGE.

NOTE - Most if not all Barnett plates do not have dimples.
to trap ioil1. trap oil

[barnett468]

If oiling the clutch plates had any benefit at all then cars, trucks, Ducati’s and such would use them wet. The only place I see clutch plates in oil are in applications like our rides and automatic transmissions where there is a benefit to having them in oil that outweighs the benefit of running them dry.

This is a fun one and quite interesting actually.

An automatic transmission has typically 4 - 6 clutches in it that operate in oil, so the auto trans throws a wrench in that theory but you did suggest that there was a benefit for them to operate in oil on an auto trans. Also an auto trans will typically go well over 100k miles before it starts to slip much. A manual trans dry clutch typically goes around 35 - 40k if driven under the same conditions

Now if someone wants they can calculate the cumulative surface area of the auto clutches and man trans clutch and see which if either has more.

If in fact the man trans clutch has more surface area it would throw another wrench in that theory.

Not trying to pick on the theory, just seemed like an interesting point.

[wonderboy]

@ El Camexican: I'm sure in the end, I'll be the fool...

The paper I'm referring to is all about automotive wet clutch systems. My issue (possibly) is that I'm assuming all wet clutch systems (automotive, ATV, etc) are all the same. I thought that I'd seen on the oiling circuit diagram in the service manual for my 350x that the clutch was in fact pressure fed, but I'm at work so I can't confirm this (don't have the service manual at work and can't download stuff like that).

Anyway, it is an interesting debate. Once I can review more of the service manual, hopefully it can explain the oiling of the clutch a bit more. On a side note (and in support of your thoughts) I've never heard of an oil pump on a 250R (which supports your statement that it isn't pressure fed).

[El Camexican]

This is a fun one and quite interesting actually.

An automatic transmission has typically 4 - 6 clutches in it that operate in oil, so the auto trans throws a wrench in that theory but you did suggest that there was a benefit for them to operate in oil on an auto trans. Also an auto trans will typically go well over 100k miles before it starts to slip much. A manual trans dry clutch typically goes around 35 - 40k if driven under the same conditions

Now if someone wants they can calculate the cumulative surface area of the auto clutches and man trans clutch and see which if either has more.

If in fact the man trans clutch has more surface area it would throw another wrench in that theory.

Not trying to pick on the theory, just seemed like an interesting point.

Please re-read my post The only place I see clutch plates in oil are in applications like our rides and automatic transmissions where there is a benefit to having them in oil that outweighs the benefit of running them dry.

I guess I should have said IS but regardless I was stating that they ARE wet in an auto transmission. As far as surface area of 16 plate 1,000 CC bike clutch VS the tiny little 10" units on some 2000cc 4 banger cars I think it is safe to say that CC to CC the wet bike set-up has more surface area, especially when you consider how much weight the car clutch is moving.

[El Camexican]

@ El Camexican: I'm sure in the end, I'll be the fool...

The paper I'm referring to is all about automotive wet clutch systems. My issue (possibly) is that I'm assuming all wet clutch systems (automotive, ATV, etc) are all the same. I thought that I'd seen on the oiling circuit diagram in the service manual for my 350x that the clutch was in fact pressure fed, but I'm at work so I can't confirm this (don't have the service manual at work and can't download stuff like that).

Anyway, it is an interesting debate. Once I can review more of the service manual, hopefully it can explain the oiling of the clutch a bit more. On a side note (and in support of your thoughts) I've never heard of an oil pump on a 250R (which supports your statement that it isn't pressure fed).

Your 350 could have had some sort of transmission oil pressure, never say never, but even on 1100cc sport bikes going back a few years I’ve never seen one. I once spent a couple hours on the phone with a tech from Barnett clutch that was very enlightening. He explained a lot about which fluids clutches prefer (auto Type F) and how oil on a clutch is a compromise. I also had occasion to talk to an Allison transmission tech a few years back while rebuilding a hydrostatic transmission and he was into bikes so the conversation ended up on two wheels and he stressed that the best fluid for any clutch was Type F if possible (2 stroke) which was exactly what the Barnett guy told me years earlier when I was struggling to keep my drag bike clutches alive. The only other thing I can add to my opinion on clutches and oil are conversations with Pro Stock bike builders who have told me that low oil levels not only cut down on windage losses, but that it also helps keep the clutch out of the oil. In fact at high RPM most of your oil is busy doing things in your top end, there is very little sitting in the oil pan, so your clutch basket is not immersed at all on a top ends run.:beer

[RIDE-RED 250r]

Just to add, when proper oil level is present in the transmission of an R, part of the bottom of the clutch is submerged.. Not by a ton, but about 3/8" roughly. Best I can tell looking at the level of the oil level plug in relation to the clutch housing on the cover anyway.. But I could see how under running circumstances the oil would barely touch the clutch once it starts getting slung around the transmission.

Just a non-expert theory here: Dry clutches found in automotive, heavy trucks and tractors and such only have the one friction disc. I have never seen or heard of a single disc wet clutch (but I make no claim of knowing everything). Knowing what I know about the wet clutches found in motorcycles and wheelers, I believe the bigger purpose of keeping the clutch lubed is to prevent failure of the clutch hub bearings, and basket fingers where the friction disc tabs tend to rub grooves. I could only imagine how fast the basket fingers would get grooved and ruined without the oil to lubricate it. And the clutch hub/basket bearings?? They would probably last about 5 minutes before melting down...if even that long.

So with all that being said (and if I am correct in my inference) the bigger purpose of the multi disc wet clutch setup is to increase surface area enough to overcome the slippery conditions between the pressure plate, discs, plates and basket created by the oil needed by the basket and hub bearings and fingers. Without the added surface area of the multi-disc setup you would never get the power to the ground... Dry clutches don't spin on a shaft like these wet clutch packs do when the clutch is disengaged and therefore require no additional lube to any moving parts.. They are bolted to the flywheel and transfer power directly to the transmission via the transmission input shaft being splined to the clutch disc... And the only spinning parts in that type of clutch is the pilot bearing in the flywheel which only sees rotational duty when the clutch pedal is pushed in and the throw-out bearing. And again, only sees rotational duty when the pedal is pushed in. .. So as long as you don't sit with the clutch pedal pushed in for extended amounts of time, that grease packed sealed bearing will last a very long time. Of course, the throw out bearing is what goes bad prematurely by the bad habit of riding the clutch...

So, I may be completely wrong on my hypothesis... Feel free to correct me if I am.

And Barnett: I do have to respectfully disagree with you on service life of dry automotive clutches... I have had more than one go well over 100k and still nowhere near needing service. BUT, as a heavy truck driver I know how to treat a clutch and how not to. The driver and his good or bad habits makes a huge difference on clutch life...

[El Camexican]

Ride Red 250r: About the hub wear if run dry, I’m pretty sure the Ducati's use either a steel inner hub, or a much higher grade of aluminum than our cast crap Jap hubs for this reason. They also run pretty loose. When used with a vented cover and disengaged they sound like a dozen phones ringing at the same time. Ditto on the car & truck clutches going 100K+. Guess it depends on who's driving.;)

[Dirtcrasher]

drags less with a warm engine than a cold one.

no edit button

Unless yours were stolen, all my posts have edit buttons. Take a screen shot once posted............

[barnett468]

And Barnett: I do have to respectfully disagree with you on service life of dry automotive clutches... I have had more than one go well over 100k and still nowhere near needing service. BUT, as a heavy truck driver I know how to treat a clutch and how not to. The driver and his good or bad habits makes a huge difference on clutch life...not a prob. i like this thread, heres the deal.

I was referring to cars that are driven at least mildly aggressively, not a car that is driven by grandma or in such a way as to preserve the life of a clutch. Yeah I guess I'm the only guy that dumped the clutch on my perfectly good datsun b210 and tried to over rev if to see if the valves would float, lol.

Also I'm referring to cars that are driven in street traffic with little freeway miles.

I am also referring to cars with a 4 speed trans but the facts still remain with the 5 speed cars.

If you take two exact same brand new 2013 cars, one auto and one manual and drive them under the exact same conditions the clutches in the auto trans will outlast the manual the clutch every time by at least 30% and often by around 60%. It's a proven fact, it is not an opinion.

This means if you have a Malibu that needs a manual clutch disc at 100k, the auto will not need clutches until around 140k.

Everything is relative.

[barnett468]

Please re-read my post [I]The only place I see clutch plates in oil are in applications like our rides and automatic transmissions where there is a benefit to having them in oil that outweighs the benefit of running them dry. I guess I should have said IS but regardless I was stating that they ARE wet in an auto transmission. Yes i understand this. i might be a bit confused as to what point you were trying to make.


As far as surface area of 16 plate 1,000 CC bike clutch VS the tiny little 10" units on some 2000cc 4 banger cars I think it is safe to say that CC to CC the wet bike set-up has more surface area, especially when you consider how much weight the car clutch is moving.i was not comparring motorcycle clutches to car ones. i was comparing the life of clutches in an auto trans vs a manual trans in a car. sorry if my post was confusing.

[barnett468]

Unless yours were stolen, all my posts have edit buttons. Take a screen shot once posted............hello dirtcrasher, how are you? thanks for trying to help/ here's the deal. I asked Mrs. Mosh about it and she said the moderator with the photo of him sleeping in his chair removed in his avatar removed my access to it but she did not know why so now I simply make multiple posts if I have a mistake in my post etc.. She also said I am not the only one with no edit button. Obviously needing to make multiple posts when I could simply make 1 if I had an edit button like most others do wastes space on the thread but that's what they seem to want me to do for some reason.

[barnett468]

post correction

"sleeping in his chair removed in his avatar" should read, "sleeping in his chair in his avatar"

sorry, i have no edit button.

[wonderboy]

To the OP: sorry for the tangent...

So just when I thought I understood these things, stuff like this comes up and mess with my head.

El Camexican is right with regard to the lack of a pressurized oiling system to the clutch. I finally dug up the 350x service manual, and in there they have a very nice diagram showing the pressurized oiling circuits and NOWHERE does it ever get pressure fed into the clutch. This really messes with my head, since I'm in the business of dealing with automotive style wet clutches (4WD systems) and all our (auto) wet clutches have pressurized oil feeding them for all the previously mentioned reasons. It just surprises me that our ATV's get away without this and don't suffer any negative effects from the little oil that must just get on there from splash or a little bit of dipping.

There is still part of me that wants to believe that our ATC clutches are designed to require oil, and that they NEED oil in them at some point to make all the parts happy (nice vague term there), but I'll defer to those that definitely know more than I. (Better to be thought a fool that to open your mouth and remove all doubt... although I'm sure I've opened my mouth enough by now)

[El Camexican]

To the OP: sorry for the tangent...

So just when I thought I understood these things, stuff like this comes up and mess with my head.

El Camexican is right with regard to the lack of a pressurized oiling system to the clutch. I finally dug up the 350x service manual, and in there they have a very nice diagram showing the pressurized oiling circuits and NOWHERE does it ever get pressure fed into the clutch. This really messes with my head, since I'm in the business of dealing with automotive style wet clutches (4WD systems) and all our (auto) wet clutches have pressurized oil feeding them for all the previously mentioned reasons. It just surprises me that our ATV's get away without this and don't suffer any negative effects from the little oil that must just get on there from splash or a little bit of dipping.

There is still part of me that wants to believe that our ATC clutches are designed to require oil, and that they NEED oil in them at some point to make all the parts happy (nice vague term there), but I'll defer to those that definitely know more than I. (Better to be thought a fool that to open your mouth and remove all doubt... although I'm sure I've opened my mouth enough by now)

I totally agree with you, our clutches ARE designed to require oil (a little of it anyway) but for reasons other than the way the plates work. My point throughout all this was simply that in theory clutch plates are happier when void of oil and engines are better off without sharing oil with them. If you encounter a system that feeds oil into a clutch pack like you mention my best guess it that it is to pressurize the pack together, or cool the pack, but that said those systems are likely using ATF and not motor oil, right? I’ll wager to say that filling a car trans with motor oil would give it a lifespan of only a few hours, yet that is what our clutches live in, so in the end I would say that “our clutches are designed to work in oil” rather than "designed to require oil".
BTW, If I thought you were a fool I wouldn’t respond to your posts and if I thought I knew everything I wouldn’t be on here reading them!
:beer

[El Camexican]

Yes i understand this. i might be a bit confused as to what point you were trying to make.

i was not comparring motorcycle clutches to car ones. i was comparing the life of clutches in an auto trans vs a manual trans in a car. sorry if my post was confusing.

I think you might have assumed that when I said “cars, and trucks” I meant auto trans when I meant STD trans.

About auto trans clutch plates there are more in most than I would ever want to count, so yea, I would say there is more clutch surface area in an auto trans than a STD clutch, but I'm not going to do the math to find out!

And finally, if some plates are dimpled I will speculate that it is not to hold oil. When time permits I am going to make a call to Barnett and ask. I think it has to do with the manufacturing process, or perhaps to minimize stiction so that the pack opens easier, but I’d be shocked if they were meant for lubing the plates while in use.

[barnett468]

I think you might have assumed that when I said “cars, and trucks” I meant auto trans when I meant STD trans.not sure, don't remember anymore.



About auto trans clutch plates there are more in most than I would ever want to count, so yea, I would say there is more clutch surface area in an auto trans than a STD clutch,the auto trannies i was referring to have 4 fiber plates in an old ford c4, 5 plates in an old ford c4 van and 6 in a c6. the c6 is used in a car that would use around an 11" disc if it were to have a manual trans and if the c4 is used it would use a 10" plate if it were a manual trans.



I'm not going to do the math to find out!why not, lol.



And finally, if some plates are dimpled I will speculate that it is not to hold oil. When time permits I am going to make a call to Barnett and ask.great idea, i already know at least part of the answer from talkig to barnett about it in the 70's as well as talking directly to the engineers that design the clutches when i ran the R and D dept at Kawi.



I think it has to do with the manufacturing process, or perhaps to minimize stiction so that the pack opens easier,This is correct and one of the reasons for them that i mentioned earlier but there are others as i also mentioned. Whether any of the things i mentioned were part of the dimples design is not relevant to my post since some of the things i mentioned might simply be a by product of the dimples.



but I’d be shocked if they were meant for lubing the plates while in use.i made no reference to this but another member did.

:Bounce

[barnett468]

post correction

i was only answering the last part of this question.

I think it has to do with the manufacturing process, or perhaps to minimize stiction so that the pack opens easier,


Just for fun, did you know an early 70's maico uses all steel plates?
.

[El Camexican]

Just for fun, did you know an early 70's maico uses all steel plates?
.

I recall hearing something about that once, but there was more to it than just removing the fibers and adding steel no? they were really big plates and didn’t use little springs to hook up right?

[barnett468]

I recall hearing something about that once, but there was more to it than just removing the fibers and adding steel no? they were really big plates and didn’t use little springs to hook up right?they were all steel from the factory. they were not really much lsarger in diameter than other clutches like the honda 250 and it took 2 hands to pull a stock one in. heres the deal

sit on line in neutral with your 74 1/2 adolph weil model 450 maico waiting for the flag or gate etc..

15 second sign goes up.

count slowly to 7.

pull the clutch in with all your might.

drop it in second.

pray they throw the flag right away otherwise your clutch will get hot causing the bike to creep across the line or run into the gate in which case the bike stops moving and the clutch gets hotter until it grabs so much it either kills the engine or climbs the gate at which time the gate finally goes down and you have to put your bike in neutral and "try" to start it up then just jamb it in gear with no clutch because it won't disengage now anyway.

once under way never pull it in again until after the race.


Anyone here ever TRY to start a 450 or 501 Maico, lol?
.

[El Camexican]

Gee, can't belive they don't still use that set-up.

[barnett468]

Gee, can't belive they don't still use that set-up.Yeah, I kid you not, lol. I saw Galon Mosier at a world championship race at Saddleback and his left hand and right leg were pretty big. The kick starter was on the left but they were impossible to start while sitting on the bike. Mine kicked back on me so hard once i could hardly walk and had to have my friends start it for me the rest of the day. I was deathly afraid every time I had to start it after that.

[El Camexican]

Until you’ve had a 14:1 1200cc KZ kick back into your calf while wearing tennis shoes you have nothing to complain about. Oh, and my friends must be smarter than yours, cuz none of them volunteered to help fire it after that!

[barnett468]

Until you’ve had a 14:1 1200cc KZ kick back into your calf while wearing tennis shoes you have nothing to complain about. Oh, and my friends must be smarter than yours, cuz none of them volunteered to help fire it after that!Hey, I done went to skool, yeah, that's right SKOOL, so i can do matth and dat sort a thing and my supercomputer says that, that's just 1 cyl kicking back at a time in a 4 cylinder unless its an Ariel square 4 like the one Steve Mcqueen used to own so its still only...umm, let's see...1200 cc div by 4 = a whopping, wimpy 300 cc's...

As far as my friends go, its not that they are so dumb although they might not be so bright either, it was more of a matter of all the beer being in the ice chest in my van which was conveniently locked so...

PS - Similar to you, I also learned a long time ago that those $2.00 rubber sandals don't work to well either.

[El Camexican]

Hey, I done went to skool, yeah, that's right SKOOL, so i can do matth and dat sort a thing and my supercomputer says that, that's just 1 cyl kicking back at a time in a 4 cylinder unless its an Ariel square 4 like the one Steve Mcqueen used to own so its still only...umm, let's see...1200 cc div by 4 = a whopping, wimpy 300 cc's...

As far as my friends go, its not that they are so dumb although they might not be so bright either, it was more of a matter of all the beer being in the ice chest in my van which was conveniently locked so...

PS - Similar to you, I also learned a long time ago that those $2.00 rubber sandals don't work to well either.

In my skool they taught us that the crank assy in that Kawi weighs as much as a whole Maico engine and that drag racers don't wear MX boots.

[barnett468]

In my skool they taught us that the crank assy in that Kawi weighs as much as a whole Maico engine and that drag racers don't wear MX boots.well that bleepin maico engine is actually a bleepin tank with a massive flywheel and 2" thick sand cast cases and 1" thick steel cyl liner so it weighs about 200 million lbs but ok day the kawi crank is heavier and they both spin the same speed when kicking and the kawi crsank has tewice as much inertia than the maico pig. the engine kicks back when the engine tries to run backwards. since one rod and piston assy of the kawi is about 1/2 that of the pig it has tess inertia fir the same given speed.

this means the smaller single cyl displacement of the kawi and the lower weight of the kawis rod and piston has less ability to slow the heavier rotating mass of the kawi crank therefore in theory it still actually kicks back less. even if it did actually kick back less i'm sure it still kick basck bleepin hard. had a frew calf kick backs in my day and couldn't walk right for a few days. they are killer.

i only know what waine rainey wore but of course he was road racer, i'd be too chicken to wear tennis shoes draggin racin. the only bike drags i have ever seen were on tv and all those guys wore boots. don't know if its a requirement on the pro circuit.

went down on the asphalt twice to, that was the end of my high perf street bike ridin. bought me a big old slow harley and wore a pink pig hat whenever i rode it, lol.

[El Camexican]

181192-
Not sure if it causes plates to hold oil & stick/grab? (when you pull in the clutch & move the trike). Not sure -since on the manual clutches the plates do not come with this from the factory- Are they not a problem?-(for those who have used them)

I called Barnett. They say that that they DO dimple theirs and that the dimples are there to allow oil in to cool the plates. They also said that providing the correct oil is used that the presence of it in the dimples will not hurt performance.

[barnett468]

yes my maico was not 14.1 like yours so that added a bit more power but my cyl cylinder kick back was still from an eng that displaced 150 cc more than a single kawi cyl.

[barnett468]

I called Barnett. They say that that they DO dimple theirs and that the dimples are there to allow oil in to cool the plates. They also said that providing the correct oil is used that the presence of it in the dimples will not hurt performance.ok cool. yeah you got a tech guy, i mentioned it was also there to cool the clutch in my previous post. there is a bit more to it than that though. they do have plates with no dimples though. the high horse race guys use no dimple plates because the dimples reduce contact area which reduces holding power, simple fact.

think about this, a dimple is the same as a hole with respect to surface area. imagine if one was to drill 50 3/8" holes in every single metal in a clutch. there would be very little surface/contact area. the clutch would slip more than a greased pig on ice.

[barnett468]

Below is a link to a page with 20 different sites mentioning that the barnett plates they bought have no dimples.

http://www.google.com/search?q=barnett+clutch+plate+no+dimples&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

[3wheelrider]

Thanks for all the replies guys-STILL waiting on parts:rolleyes:-nothing to report yet....