'86 250SX rear hub

[Sawfly]

so i'm trying to get the axle off to replace the bearings and most likely the final drive as well and i can't get the right hub off. theres a locking ring/washer before the drum brake and i dont know how to remove the lockwasher or get the hub off. i've tried a hub puller and that ended in pain and band-aids. it's been soaking in WD-40 and PB blaster for almost a full day. i'm thinking it's just rusted real bad. any suggestions?

[Dirtcrasher]

This is why I tell people to grease their splines.

I had one like this and used a very thick plate of steel. Drilled two holes to slip over the lug studs; and tapped a 1/2 -13 thread in the center. Then I welded a nut onto threaded rod and made a point with a grinder on the other end. Oil that threaded rod and use an impact gun.

Don't heat and ruin that seal, it may be discontinued.

[barnett468]

Hello sawfly

HUB REMOVAL – You need a puller that can be bolted to the studs on the hub as dirtcrasher suggested. It has 2 10” jaws with a small 90 deg bend on one end with around a 1/2” hole in that bent portion. You can rent them at most rental yards that rent tools. If you use one then once you get the center bolt tight hit it with a 3 lb hammer, not a nail hammer. Then tighten center bolt again and hit again etc. It should come off if properly done.

SEAL - The seal is available see below.

LOCKWASHER – The original parts fiche does not show one, that is just what the manual calls it. It is just a sleeve that covers the seal and should pry off with pb blaster etc once the wheel hub is off. It should also come off with the drum cover. It’s probably just dried onto the seal. See item below.

BRAKE DRUM REMOVAL – There is no clip to hold it on. It gets trapped on the spline by the hub.

GREASE – That’s a good suggestion from dirtcrasher, however if you have anti seize might work better. Just don’t get any on your brake shoes, it only takes a little.


DRUM AND DRUM COVER DRUM COVER SEAL ITEM 21 AVAILABLE

http://www.cmsnl.com/honda-atc250sx-1986-usa_model7191/partslist/F++0901.html#results


AXLE

http://www.cmsnl.com/honda-atc250sx-1986-usa_model7191/partslist/F++10.html#results


HUB AND DRUM SIDE SEAL RING [LOCKWASHER]

http://www.cmsnl.com/honda-atc250sx-1986-usa_model7191/partslist/F++0801.html#results


DRUM SIDE SEAL RING [LOCKWASHER]

http://www.cmsnl.com/honda-atc250sx-1986-usa_model7191/ring-side-seal_91265ha8003/

[up-tyte]

First, yes always grease splines but we think this hub has never been removed or it has been a very long time. I am helping Sawfly on this project as he lives in my house. We have had a flywheel puller clamped on the hub and then torqued down with a impact, left it on for a couple days and nothing, we did not hit the puller as we had a lot of tension on it,tried heating tonight and nothing, I know the seal. I was thinking of making a puller like Dirtcrasher mentioned but will have to find some extensions for the wheel studs, they are about 3/4" shorter than the axle. Will try that tomorrow and let you know how it goes.

[barnett468]

Hello



We have had a flywheel puller clamped on the hub

A “jaw” puller is actually a “pulley” puller not a “flywheel” puller. These only work on things that are not stuck on too hard and the rear surface of object being pulled must be machined flat. You can rent a 3 jaw slide hammer puller that has a locking ring for the jaws so they can’t slip off but I would use the puller and method I previously recommended. It’s the best way.




and then torqued down with a impact,

Again this only works with things that are only lightly to moderately stuck.




left it on for a couple days and nothing,

You could have left it on until kingdom come and it would never have an effect, it doesn’t work that way.




we did not hit the puller as we had a lot of tension on it,

The pullers are designed to hit hard, if it is stuck that bad it will never come off if you do not hit it hard with a 3 lb hammer as I previously suggested.




tried heating tonight and nothing,

The hub metal is way too thick to heat enough to have an effect before melting the hub.




I know the seal. I was thinking of making a puller like Dirtcrasher mentioned

Great idea but highly impractical in your case ONLY because if it’s stuck that bad you would have to make it super strong to work in your case, that’s the only potential problem with it. It is also the EXACT same principal as the one I said you can rent for $5.00 which is designed to be strong enough for this sort of thing.




but will have to find some extensions for the wheel studs, they are about 3/4" shorter than the axle.

Why, if they are not spot welded to the back of the hub just thread a nut on two opposing studs and hit them with the 3 lb hammer, they should fall right out. All you need then is 2, 2” grade 8 bolts 4 grade 8 flat washers and 2 nut to bolt to the puller arms.

[Larry T Moore]

they do make an adapter for small wheel hubs to use a slide hammer...used one on a ride mower...after about 10 good hits it flew across the yard

[Sawfly]

went out and rented an actual hub puller that fit over the studs, used an impact on it and still nothing. we put a piece of 1/4" steel stock between the puller and the axle in the hopes it wouldn't flare the axle too much, didn't work too well. it dug a hole almost all the way through the steel stock. 170593 i'll try to find a slide hammer attachment like you mentioned larry.

[barnett468]

Hello


Lol, you guys have an incurable case of air gun love, you must watch a lot of Nascar. I told you how to use the tools PROPERLY twice already so this is the third time but if you refuse to use them properly then I can’t help you any more than I already have. For an air gun to even have a chance at removing your particular hub, it needs to be a US or European made HIGH TORQUE type with 120 psi going through it. Is this EXACTLY what you have? There actually is a science and skill to doing this when things are stuck as bad as yours is. You may break the hub because it is stuck so bad, if so don’t blame us.

Your hub puller is suppose to have a special tip that spins on its bolt. This protects the bolt AND the shaft it is pushing against so it doesn’t damage it like it did your “steel’ plate. Some pullers have a pointed tip, some have a flat one. The pointed one goes directly in the tiny indentation in the end of the axle if there is one. The flat one can be used with or without a steel plate.

Your steel plate idea was a good one unfortunately it didn’t work because the steel you used is soft as butter and the puller tip is incorrect or not working properly. You need around 50 lbs torque on the bolt before hitting it with the hammer. Using a 3 lb hammer or larger, hit it "bleepin" hard. If it is working, the bolt will require an additional 1/8th turn to get it up to 50 lb’s of torque again. Repeat as necessary, it might take 20 times.

If the bolt is not turning you can do the following and either it will come off or something will break and possibly send shrapnel towards your head at supersonic speeds, lol. Wear heavy clothes and safety goggles. Install tool with proper tip then torque to 50 ft lbs then heat hub shaft on splines with oxy/acetylene ONLY [other gas won’t work], behind flange until it glows red hot. Don’t heat flange, don’t melt the drum and don’t put flame directly on axle. Once hub shaft is red use a 3 ft breaker bar or a shorter bar with a pipe over it to make it 3” long and turn bolt. The hub will come off 99.999% guaranteed.


Pay the extra $5.00 for tool breakage insurance.




Hello A “jaw” puller is actually a “pulley” puller not a “flywheel” puller. These only work on things that are not stuck on too hard and the rear surface of object being pulled must be machined flat. You can rent a 3 jaw slide hammer puller that has a locking ring for the jaws so they can’t slip off but I would use the puller and method I previously recommended. It’s the best way.

The slide hammer I mentioned in post 5 probably won’t work but try it if you want, I use them often but I think your hub is too stuck for it to work. If you choose not to do any of the above then you will need to rent around a 10” electric cut off wheel and simply cut it off and hope you don’t ruin the axle in the process.

[barnett468]

Hello


If you find the flames are getting uncomfortably close to your brake drum cover then simply take a piece of 2”X 2” plywood and cut a 13”X 1/12” slot in it then soak it in water for 30 minutes and then place it over the axle to protect the hub.

[up-tyte]

Barnett, We are just using the impact to tighten things up, we are tightening to between 50 and 70 ft lbs and then using a 5lb hammer, we don't have a 3 lb, I go from my 2 lb framing hammer to the 5lb. The puller has a flat end with a slight point in the center to keep it centered on the axle end and it was flaring out the end of the axle, hence the reason for the steel plate, we expected it to give some but were trying to not deform the axle as much. I have used my jaw puller to remove many flywheels, gears and brake hubs in the past without issues, I do also have a flywheel puller you mentioned but has a to small spread to fit the wheel studs. I have never had this much trouble getting something unstuck, and I have worked on a lot of 40 year old equipment that had been sitting, it is acting like there is a lock ring on it. Cutting it off would be our last option but that is getting closer, we are checking on availability of hubs. Is the lock washer part of the hub or will it come off separate, or is it more of just a cover for the seal? Other than the lock washer are the right and left the same?

[barnett468]

Hello up-tyte




We are just using the impact to tighten things up, we are tightening to between 50 and 70 ft lbs and then using a 5lb

I might check it with a torque wrench to be sure.





then using a 5lb , we don't have a 3 lb, I go from my 2 lb framing to the 5lb.

Ok, you never mentioned you were using a hammer. You can NOT use the 2 lb first, you must use a 3lb or larger and hit the POS very HARD.





The puller has a flat end with a slight point in the center to keep it centered on the axle end and it was flaring out the end of the axle, hence the reason for the steel plate, we expected it to give some but were trying to not deform the axle as much.

Ok I know what you have now however I still don’t have enough info. Is there a factory indentation in the end of the axle or not? If there is and the indentation is bigger and deeper than the pointed tip on your puller the only the FLAT part of the puller is contacting the end of the axle and it theoretically [lol] should not flare out. Either way if this is the case, then using a steel plate will not prevent the axle from damage. If the point on the puller is larger than the indentation in the end of the axle then you can either drill a larger indentation in the end of the axle so the flat part of the puller will sit flush on the end of it or buy a piece of hardened steel and put a large dent in it with your 5 lb hammer and a center punch so the flat part of the puller will sit flush on it then file the raised lip around the punch mark flat and use the steel as you did before then try it again as mentioned.





we expected it to give some but were trying to not deform the axle as much

The steel plate can not give so much as a .001”, that's why it must be hardened.





I have never had this much trouble getting something unstuck, and I have worked on a lot of 40 year old equipment that had been sitting,

Yeah I know hard to believe something like this could be stuck so hard but they can.





it is acting like there is a lock ring on it.

Nope, no lock ring.





Cutting it off would be our last option but that is getting closer, we are checking on availability of hubs.

Someone here should have one, just make a new post requesting one or try Ebay and the links below.

partzilla.com

xtremeusa.com





Is the lock washer part of the hub or will it come off separate, or is it more of just a cover for the seal?

It is just a separate cover for the seal I posted a link to it in my earlier post. See it again below.





Other than the lock washer are the right and left the same?

No, that would be way too easy, lol.


See parts in link below.

http://www.cmsnl.com/honda-atc250sx-1986-usa_model7191/partslist/F++0801.html#results




As I mentioned, if you heat it properly and use the tool with a 3” breaker bar it should come off.

[up-tyte]

yes there was a small indention in the end of the axle, the point on the puller is smaller and the flats where touching. After several attempts with the 5lber you could see the hole for the cotter key starting to distort and the end flaring out, the axle nut will not slide over the end at this time, but that's an easy fix. We have also had to file the edges of the bolt in the puller so that we could reinstall the socket. Can't get much leverage with a 3" breaker bar, didn't know they made one that short.

[barnett468]

Hello up-tyte




yes there was a small indention in the end of the axle, the point on the puller is smaller and the flats where touching. After several attempts with the 5lber you could see the hole for the cotter key starting to distort and the end flaring out, the axle nut will not slide over the end at this time, but that's an easy fix.

Cheap parts.




Can't get much leverage with a 3" breaker bar, didn't know they made one that short.


Once hub shaft is red use a 3 ft breaker bar or a shorter bar with a pipe over it to make it 3” long and turn bolt.

Ok, MR. up-tyte, my comment above CLEARLY says “3 ft breaker bar” not 3", the part you misunderstood was “or a shorter bar with a pipe over it to make it 3” long”. This would have to be around a 1” breaker bar with a 2” long pipe, watch makers use them, lol.



After several attempts with the 5lber you could see the hole for the cotter key starting to distort and the end flaring out, the axle nut will not slide over the end at this time, but that's an easy fix.

This is what I would do at this point. Heat till it’s cherry red then use the “non watch makers” breaker bar and pray. If it fails rent the cut off wheel.



We have also had to file the edges of the bolt in the puller so that we could reinstall the socket.

That figures, probably not us made, lol.

[Dirtcrasher]

I don't rent or buy pullers, I make them. And they must be super thick and strong.

Then if needed, I add some heat and bang to the center threaded rod, more pressure, hit it again.

The 86/87 hubs have an o-ring to help keep the water out so you may melt that.

[just ben]

Hello MR.Barnett You did clearly say a 3" (inch) breaker bar and then in your usual cocky way of an explanation you said 1" breaker bar with a 2" pipe. Wouldn't that be 3"? not for publication.

[Sawfly]

barnett - i've followed your instructions pretty much to the letter as far as using the puller and still no dice, we'll be trying the "non watch makers" idea tomorrow sometime... i'm gonna go ahead and get my last rites out of the way tonight.

dirtcrasher - i'm aware of the o-ring, do you know if it can be replaced with just a standard o-ring the same size?

[barnett468]

Hello Sawfly and Up-tyte




Barnett - i've followed your instructions pretty much to the letter as far as using the puller and still no dice,

Again all I can say is I wish it wasn’t so hard to get off and that if someone had a better idea they certainly would have mentioned it by now.




we'll be trying the "non watch makers" idea tomorrow sometime...

Yeah, ya might get just a bit more leverage with that one, lol.




i'm gonna go ahead and get my last rites out of the way tonight.

Ok, but please keep in mind, this can be HAZARDOUS, although I’ve never had a problem. The only reason I even mentioned it to you guys is because up-tyte mentioned he has quite a bit of experience pulling heavy flywheels etc so I figured he would know the risks involved in using this method and take the proper precautions.

“NO WARRANTIES OR GUARANTEES EXPRESSED OR IMPLIED”, lol




dirtcrasher - i'm aware of the o-ring, do you know if it can be replaced with just a standard o-ring the same size?

I figured I’d answer this for you only in case you get to heating your hub before he gets back. It’s actually a seal on yours, the size is 20 mm id x 28 mm od x 2.5 mm thick. It is available from the OEM parts suppliers below and probably Ebay. Just enter the p/n and ebay in the search engine.

OEM FICHE AND PARTS SUPPLIER, HUB SEAL ITEM 9 P/N 91255-HA8-000.
http://www.cmsnl.com/honda-atc250sx-1986-usa_model7191/partslist/F++0801.html#results

partzilla.com

xtremeusa.com

SEAL ON EBAY
http://www.ebay.com/itm/NOS-HONDA-ATC250-TRX250-TRX350-OIL-SEAL-91255-HA8-004-/200679695727




if needed, I add some heat and bang to the center threaded rod, more pressure, hit it again.

Ok, now you have a “majority” consensus. Get the torch out, lol.




Hello MR.Barnett You did clearly say a 3" (inch) breaker bar and then in your usual cocky way of an explanation you said 1" breaker bar with a 2" pipe. Wouldn't that be 3"? not for publication.

I’m a bit baffled as to the purpose of this persons comments or exactly how they relate to your original question and subsequently how it has anything to do with helping you with your problem, but maybe you can make some sense or logic out of it.


Good Luck

[Killbot]

I remember reading they only come out from one side of the bike. maybe your going the wrong way?.. I'm a horrible mechanic tho.!lol

[Sawfly]

so barnett, we ended up having to heat it to a nice glowing red, not bright red but we're getting there. then breaker bar and we had to reheat it. eventually came off with much groaning and popping. there's roughly an inch to an inch and a half wide solid rust ring around the outside of the splines(would post pics but the air was gettin to me). so i'm guessing the outer hub seal was either bad at some point or the right side sat in standing water for a couple weeks/months/years. melted and burned most of the seals on the hub and turned the lock ring white(hooray ash!)

i expect to get to work early-ish tomorrow. also, the flange/lugs are now bent due to the forces applied, while i will try to repair them i'm going to try and find a spare hub.

Killbot- the axle(from what i gather from the manual) comes out from left-right. hubs are separate

[barnett468]

Hello sawfly and up-tyte



First, im glad no one got hurt removing your hub i warned you it was dangerous, second im glad you successfully removed it without having to CUT it off.

I’m just guessing from your comments and the way they are worded that you are less than ecstatic you got your hub off and still have an axle left. Most people in your position would at least be extremely happy it came off at all if not somewhat happy for those that took the time to read your post and offer you suggestions that ultimately led to it’s removal.

I forewarned you in an earlier reply that it sounded like it was stuck so bad it would probably break during removal or that if you heated it until it was "cherry" red like I suggested you should buy a new one anyway. Well you heated it up red but not as red as I suggested and you bent it and now you are unhappy about it and want to fix a bent rusty hub with no temper left in it because you had to heat it until it was red hot to get it off.

If you knowingly heated it less than I suggested in an attempt to have your cake and eat it too it would make no sense to be unhappy with anyone other than yourself, besides it’s not mine or anyone else’s fault that offered you suggestions on how to remove your hub which was rusted to the axle due to someone’s neglect.




Heat till it’s cherry red then use the “non watch makers” breaker bar and pray. If it fails rent the cut off wheel.

There actually is a science and skill to doing this when things are stuck as bad as yours is. You may break the hub because it is stuck so bad, if so don’t blame us.


so barnett, we ended up having to heat it to a nice glowing red, not bright red but we're getting there. then breaker bar and we had to reheat it. the flange/lugs are now bent due to the forces applied

That’s close but not EXACTLY what I suggested you do. You guys own a torch so I “guessed you know the difference between the two. Had you heated until it was Cherry red it would have come off easier and you therefore might NOT have bent your hub.





i will try to repair them

I told you it would be JUNK once you got it red hot so WHY in the world are you trying to save it? IT IS AN UNSAFE HUB NOW, USE AT YOUR OWN PERIL!





i'm going to try and find a spare hub.

I already gave you a couple suggestions how to do this, one of which was to post a request for one here in the “NEW MEMBER FORUM” but you haven’t done that yet for some reason yet you had the time to reply to inform us that your hub is bent and some parts are melted.





melted and burned most of the seals on the hub and turned the lock ring white(hooray ash!

You sound totally surprised yet you guys own an oxy/acetylene torch. Haven’t you used it enough to know what it does to metal that gets glowing red hot not to mention rubber parts?

[Dirtcrasher]

I was worried about his drum seal, not the hub seal.

[barnett468]

I was worried about his drum seal, not the hub seal.

Hello dirtcrasher


I saw that in your earlier post which was a good consideration so I looked up the rubber drum cover seal and the metal lock ring seal sleeve drum seal cover thingy and posted where he could get NOS ones. Besides I think that became the least of his problems since his hub wasn't going to come off unless he heated it unless he sawed it off and took a risk of damaging the axle splines. Since he sounded like he really didn't want to cut it off, this was the only other option I could think of. Like I mentioned, they own an oxy/acetylene torch so they made their own well informed decision.

[Sawfly]

well informed might be giving me a little too much credit, also, my posts are normally made to be viewed in a less serious and more sarcastically/with a grain of salt than anything else.

i try to fix almost everything, the temper hasn't come out of the hub to the extent that i believe it to be dangerous. i could be wrong but that's why i've got a helmet right? right. just roll with it.

i'm actually very ecstatic about the hub actually coming off, even more so because there were no injuries.

the bending was mainly from the beginning before we heated it and before i posted on here. the bending played a major role in asking for help.

i'm also going to sort through all the spare parts mixed in boxes that are sitting around the garage/shop/storage shed before i go looking to buy a hub. this may take a while.

and finally, dirtcrasher - the outer drum seal is gone although i still have the spring which i will throw in a useless box of odds and ends for some random project.

[Dirtcrasher]

well informed might be giving me a little too much credit, also, my posts are normally made to be viewed in a less serious and more sarcastically/with a grain of salt than anything else.

i try to fix almost everything, the temper hasn't come out of the hub to the extent that i believe it to be dangerous. i could be wrong but that's why i've got a helmet right? right. just roll with it.

i'm actually very ecstatic about the hub actually coming off, even more so because there were no injuries.

the bending was mainly from the beginning before we heated it and before i posted on here. the bending played a major role in asking for help.

i'm also going to sort through all the spare parts mixed in boxes that are sitting around the garage/shop/storage shed before i go looking to buy a hub. this may take a while.

and finally, dirtcrasher - the outer drum seal is gone although i still have the spring which i will throw in a useless box of odds and ends for some random project.

Barnett says it's available. The o-ring in the hub was just another improvement Honda made to keep water out of the differential once it made it's way past the swinger tube. The 85 seals like garbage. I would tear that whole thing down, clean it, silicone up all the joints as well as the boot and use "open gear compound" on every spline. You can't get this grease off your hands, it will take a few showers :lol:

Water is a terrible enemy to trikes; But we all use them for different reasons. The best thing you can do is preventative maintenance.

I had an 85 that the diff ring gear holder was about to strip from water and rust entry. I sold it............

[Sawfly]

i use cheapcycleparts for referencing part numbers and i've found all the seals i need so i think that'll be fine. that entire rear end is getting taken apart, i've drained muddy oil out of that final drive enough that i'm gonna spend a little more to seal it a lot better(although my brake actually had very little real rust) i'm waiting to pull apart the diff till i get back from my 2 week reserve training. then i''ll finally see just how bad it's gotten.

i work as a mechanic so preventative maintenance is something i'm normally very good with but while i was stationed in CO this sat on a trailer outside with a tarp most days, it's also cold up there so there's only so much i could do.

[Dirtcrasher]

Careful with those diff caps too, they snap easy. Just grease it and snug it up.