250r crank oring placement

[3wheelrider]

Ive seen talk on a few threads about installing an oring to stop possible leak but I am unclear where it
goes exactly. Anyone got a pic or diagram to make it clear to me where it goes? Not sure if I
have a leak there but-how would you know if there IS anyway? I would like to do it just in case....

[3wheelrider]

sorry for the staggered sentences-not sure why it comes out that way?!-
(Using Iphone to post....)

[barnett468]

Hello


I don't understand your post, too cryptic

Do you want to install an oring on the crank inside or outside the crank area that wasn't put there by Honda to try and prevent the crank seals from leaking? If this is the case I personally would NOT do it.

Do you want to check crank seals for leaking? If so go to the recent post by Islander regarding "250r smokes too much" ALL the info you need to do this is there.

[3wheelrider]

Atc300r seems to know what Im talkin about.....-(altho Its for a watercooler R). I know it doesnt come with one there but I ve heard its a good idea to do so. Im just trying to eliminate the possibility of a leak there tho I have NO issues.
Anyway ,-so remove the collar place oring then reinstall collar? Is that how it is done on the WC R too?
Anyone got a diagram?Just want to be sure.....

[Dirtcrasher]

On the air cooled and liquid cooled 250r there is an O-ring that goes between the collar and crank bearing on the clutch side.You have to remove the clutch and pull the collar of put the O-ring on and reinstall the collar.Make sure you time the counter balancer when putting back together there are timing marks on everthing.167589 167590

Bingo!! Hopefully it'd not discontinued.

[RIDE-RED 250r]

Did Honda quit with this O-ring shortly after the water pumpers went into full swing?? Neither of my engines had an O-ring there, nor did they have a groove on the collar for an o-ring....


This is very interesting to me

[KASEY]

i have cracked several 250r motors and NEVER seen an oring... so don't put something where it does not belong,,, asking for trouble if you put an oring where it shouldn't be....

[barnett468]

Atc300r seems to know what Im talkin about.....-(altho Its for a watercooler R). I know it doesnt come with one there but I ve heard its a good idea to do so. Im just trying to eliminate the possibility of a leak there tho I have NO issues.
Anyway ,-so remove the collar place oring then reinstall collar? Is that how it is done on the WC R too?
Anyone got a diagram?Just want to be sure.....



Hello Mr. 3wheelrider


From ATC300R - "My 85 was built in 12/84."

ATC300R, was it built prior to the VIN posted below?

Ride Red, was your built before or after the VIN listed below?

Was it built prior to or after ATC300R's bike?

xxxxx

ATC300r seems to know what Im talkin about.....-(altho Its for a watercooler R).

I personally don’t see how being sarcastic and condescending towards someone that you don’t know and who is simply taking time out of their life to help you, is going to get you the answers to your questions. Perhaps ATC300R is a cryptic code cracker and could crack the Enigma code if he wanted to, all I know is that I am not. This being said I am going to continue to help you at least this far any way.

Even though you may not want, need or understand the information I am supplying others will and may benefit from it as I frequently benefit from theirs.

xxxxx

I know it doesnt come with one there but I ve heard its a good idea to do so.

Honda designed these bikes without an o ring for some reason.

xxxxx

Im just trying to eliminate the possibility of a leak there tho I have NO issues.

This is understandable however since if it is done improperly it could possibly create a problem of some kind.

xxxxx

so remove the collar place oring then reinstall collar?

ONLY if you have a crank that looks like ATC300R’s in the photo and you have an o ring groove on your collar already.

Xxxxx

Is that how it is done on the WC R too?

Only on ATC300R’s bike that we know of so far since it is NOT this way on Ride Red 250r’s bike.

xxxxx

Anyone got a diagram?Just want to be sure.....

In addition to ATC300R’s xlnt photos I posted two links to the OEM Honda fiche below which shows it.

xxxxx

The OEM parts fiche shows a different crank assy in 85 prior to VIN 2413878 than the cranks used after this VIN. When they specifically list a VIN along with a part number it means that the actually dimension and or connectors [wiring and switches] are not interchangeable with other similar parts listed for the same year.

Since the crank was changed sometime in 85 I suggest you look VERY closely at the crank bearing area in ATC300R’s photo. If yours has and steps or the splines are machined 100% up to the bearing area it won’t help you at all to install one. His crank is the same od all the way and he has a smooth [non machined] area of approximately 10mm wide where the seal rides. Without this “SMOOTH” area an o ring will not “seal” and air can leak past the splines.

Since ATC300R has an o ring and Ride Red does not in the same year bike this “suggests” that all 85’s prior to this vin had an o ring and o ring collar. If this is the case then the OEM parts fiche he has an error regarding the early 85 collar and o ring. If this is not the case, then Honda simply used left over 84 collars in some of the 85 models. The only way to determine this is to compare the 83-84 collar to any 85-86 non o ring collar and see if they are interchangeable.

To PROPERLY run an o ring on an o ring free 85-86, one would have to machine the id of the collar to the proper size to properly accept the o ring. This is EXACTLY the reason I said I personally wouldn’t do it. Perhaps ATC 250R might measure his for you but I suggest you use a less sarcastic tone with him then you did with me if you want the info.

The proper shape/size of the o ring grove should be a square cut recess with the outer edge chamfered slightly to prevent cutting the o ring during installation and an id of 21.5mm [o ring will expand approximately 1%-3% when installed on the crank shaft] and a depth of approximately 3.0mm.

crank 84 130000961000 85 13300ha2000 up to VIN2413878, 13300ha2010, 13300ha2020, 86 13300ha2670

bearing 84-86 28x68x18

collar 84 13617961000 85-86 13617ha2000

o ring 84 91307-425-003 size 21.5mm X 3.2mm
xxxxx

84 o ring fiche 91307-425-003 size 21.5mm X 3.2mm

http://www.cmsnl.com/honda-atc250r-1984-usa_model7189/o-ring-215x32_91307425003/

xxxxx

84 crank assy fiche

http://www.cmsnl.com/honda-atc250r-1984-usa_model7189/partslist/E++07.html#results

xxxxx

Bingo!! Hopefully it'd not discontinued.

They ARE discontinued but are available at the cmsnl.com site I listed. It is a std o ring size and is therefore readily available at o ring supply stores as well. Just get the right “material”.

[barnett468]

Hello


The collar is hardened and therefore may be difficult to machine.

Apply 2 stroke oil or Bel Ray grease to collar and o ring in and out for installation.

[bkm]

http://www.trx250r.net/forum/engine-transmission/21540-air-leak-2.html

[Mosh]

http://www.trx250r.net/forum/engine-transmission/21540-air-leak-2.html


Whole lot of misinformed stuff in that thread. There is NO Oring in a waterpumper under the seal collar. That guy on the other forum has a leak because his crank bearings are shot on the stator side. he should be splitting the cases and fixing it right vs. putting a bandaid on the thing.

One of the guys offering advice was asking some really simple questions on here and other forums just a few short years ago. Things that even a novice builder should have known. Probably more of a business man picking up tips from his hands on guys than he is a builder.

The service manual has the best advice and no service manual or engine seal kit says anything about putting a oring on the crank collar for a watercooled 250R.

[bkm]

Whole lot of misinformed stuff in that thread. There is NO Oring in a waterpumper under the seal collar. That guy on the other forum has a leak because his crank bearings are shot on the stator side. he should be splitting the cases and fixing it right vs. putting a bandaid on the thing.

One of the guys offering advice was asking some really simple questions on here and other forums just a few short years ago. Things that even a novice builder should have known. Probably more of a business man picking up tips from his hands on guys than he is a builder.

The service manual has the best advice and no service manual or engine seal kit says anything about putting a oring on the crank collar for a watercooled 250R.The point of the link I posted was to answer the OP's question. Nothing more, nothing less. Personally I feel that if there was a problem with that seal leaking there, Honda would have placed an o-ring there. I agree that this seems to be more or a band aid for worn out components.

[Mosh]

I wasn't trying to call you out on the link or anything, just happened to have your name in it with the quote.

[Mosh]

http://www.servicehondapsn.com/fiche_section_detail.asp?section=2461361&category=ATVs&make=Honda&year=1985&fveh=131330

http://www.servicehondapsn.com/fiche_section_detail.asp?section=2461365&category=ATVs&make=Honda&year=1985&fveh=131330

http://www.servicehondapsn.com/fiche_section_detail.asp?section=2461367&category=ATVs&make=Honda&year=1985&fveh=131330

No oring:wondering

[3wheelrider]

Ok-I wasnt trying to ruffle feathers. By my comment I just meant that my question wasnt so cryptic that it wasnt comprehendable.-thats all. Yes- that thread with BDT is where I also saw it mentioned (1& sometimes 2 orings he says)-guess
not.-Anyway, after the advice/info here -I will leave it as is. Thanks to all !

[Dirtcrasher]

http://www.servicehondapsn.com/fiche_section_detail.asp?section=2568557&category=ATVs&make=Honda&year=1984&fveh=132994

#20 was what I assumed he was posting about.

[LastFoolerInVA]

http://www.servicehondapsn.com/fiche_section_detail.asp?section=2461361&category=ATVs&make=Honda&year=1985&fveh=131330

http://www.servicehondapsn.com/fiche_section_detail.asp?section=2461365&category=ATVs&make=Honda&year=1985&fveh=131330

http://www.servicehondapsn.com/fiche_section_detail.asp?section=2461367&category=ATVs&make=Honda&year=1985&fveh=131330

No oring:wondering

all 3 of those parts fiche's are not of the proper parts to determine if there is or isn't an o-ring

it seems dirtcrasher got it... looks like an oring to me

[RIDE-RED 250r]

Wish I could be of help with the VIN situation in trying to sort this out, but I cannot. I know that at least 1 of my 2 '85 R's has an 86/87 engine and the other has an 85 engine, but was not original to the VIN on that trike. So any determination of any possible changeover point regarding post VIN XXXXX would be impossible given my engines I have. Sorry guys....

[yaegerb]

I would just call Carlos and ask him then we could all go on with our lives, LOL. I would assume he knows why or how some of the cranks have that recess in the 1985 model. I don't have that recess on my crank and my bike was made on 2/85.

[Dirtcrasher]

Thats odd but it is what it is. Apparently Honda changed some things up and no longer needed that o-ring.

Find the size and something from something will fit; :lol:



If the 84 fits, I have a couple from 2 83/84R's lower ends. I'll be selling off every single bearing and seal etc NEW for those years.

Customer does not call me back, does not answers in PM or Email and hopefully someone at TF13 can get the motors back to him.

It's been 2 years, I have had time here and there but never got a response so time to move it.

No repair manual, no money and no gaskets or rings either. I QUIT!

All the work I did and I get dumped on, just like my tenants do..................

[barnett468]

I bought an 85 motor from ebay and it also has the o-ring.


Hello ATC250R and Ride Red 250r

Thanks for all you guys putting effort into this. Honda used to put partial vin's on the motors which matched the bikes vin's back in the "old" days. I don't remember if they did that in 80 on uo though. If you know if they did one could just use the engine vin's. Don't need to know what they are just whether they are before or after the VIN cutoff I posted.

Yeagerb, thanks for the info but Honda went by the vin for cut off dates not the buils date, is it possible you could check to see if yours is before or after the one I posted? If not no problem. I like your Carlos comment he must be one of dem der "engin ears".

[barnett468]

Ok-I wasnt trying to ruffle feathers. By my comment I just meant that my question wasnt so cryptic that it wasnt comprehendable.-thats all. Yes- that thread with BDT is where I also saw it mentioned (1& sometimes 2 orings he says)-guess
not.-Anyway, after the advice/info here -I will leave it as is. Thanks to all !


Hello


Xxxxx

Ok-I wasnt trying to ruffle feathers. By my comment I just meant that my question wasnt so cryptic that it wasnt comprehendable.-thats all.

Thanks for your comments but if you re-read my original post I guessed EXACTLY what you were doing anyway and suggested not to do that. It would have been less typing for you to simply answer my question with a yes. I’m over it, no problem.

xxxxx

Yes- that thread with BDT is where I also saw it mentioned (1& sometimes 2 orings he says)-guess
not.

Yes this unfortunately a very bad and unfortunate problem when someone who does not know much for help and then some “brainiac” like Carlos, unfortunately gives wrong information, especially when that particular wrong information could possibly even do damage to ones bike. Everyone wants to be an “expert” but unfortunately not all giving info are. I personally don’t want to discourage anyone from at least trying to help another but I just encourage those that do who aren’t absolutely certain about what they are saying that they simply qualify their comments by saying something like “I’m not positive about my suggestion so please confirm with another before you try putting 2 o rings in a place that isn’t designed for even one”, lol.

Xxxxx

after the advice/info here -I will leave it as is. Thanks to all !

Yeah, kinda looks like that's a reasonable decision best based upon the general consensus, just please don't take any more of Carlos's advice,lol.

xxxxx

Carlos from BDT recomended to put two o-rings in. In that thread.

Of course that’s because 2 o rings will last twice as long, don’t you know that?

Xxxxx

I bought an 85 motor from ebay and it also has the o-ring.

Please quit buying o ring water cooled motors, you’re not helping. If it wasn’t for you this thread would have ended a while ago, lol.

xxxxx

all 3 of those parts fiche's are not of the proper parts to determine if there is or isn't an o-ring

Those actually are the correct 3 sections of at least one of the OEM Honda fiches s to show whether it came with an o ring or not. The fiches had dates on the bottom and we would occasionally get updated fiches for the same year. Since ATC300R Seems to keep getting 85 motors with o rings it suggests that either the fiche is inaccurate as I previously mentioned or the ones currently available for online viewing are updated versions of the original 85 fiche which may in fact show an o ring up to a certain VIN.

xxxxx

it seems dirtcrasher got it... looks like an oring to me

Yes, he did as far as the 84 goes and this is the exact same fiche I previously posted a link to but mine was from a different online parts supplier than his.

xxxxx

That’s odd but it is what it is. Apparently Honda changed some things up and no longer needed that o-ring.

Yes, most 2 strokes typically used an o ring in this area. Since this is a high potential leak area it seem highly unlikely that Honda eliminated the o ring intentionally simply to save a mere 20 cents by eliminating it and subsequently run the risk of leaking seals and possibly seized pistons that they would then have to pay for under warranty but one never knows.

xxxxx

[barnett468]

Hello


Below is an oem fiche showing no o ring from VIN, ATC250R A (85) ALL-TERRAIN VEHICLE (ATV), JPN, VIN# JH3TB060-FC400019 TO JH3TB060-FC426863

This is the VIN cut off for the crank change on the previous fiche I posted, "2413878". I don’t know why this VIN starts with a “2” and has 1 more digit than the other listed above.

Anyone know what consecutive unit number their 85 bike starts with, 2 or 4 and possibly the build date?

[Mosh]

all 3 of those parts fiche's are not of the proper parts to determine if there is or isn't an o-ring

it seems dirtcrasher got it... looks like an oring to meThe links I posted are for an 85 watercooled. DC's link was for a 84 aircooled which undoubtedly runs that o-ring.
The original question was for the watercooled engine not the air cooled.

"Maybe" according to atc 300r, some early model watercooled R's had that o-ring. My wifes is on a factory crank and built in 12-84..No oring. I too along with kasey have split several 250R engines. 3 this year for me alone. Probably 10 over the last 5 years. I have never, ever, seen an o-ring in that collar. I know Honda had a ton of vin break-point updates to the watercooled engine. The first ones had 3 small ball bearings for the clutch rod, vs one large one. Different collars for the Kicker shaft, and clutch hubs, etc, etc.

However I have never found and O-ring in the crank collar, parts schematics do not show it, and every bottom end seal kit I have ever purchased, does not list or contain an O-ring for the application on the watercooled crank. Could there have been on a select few? Sure maybe, but for some reason if that is the case, Honda decided very early on in production it was not needed.

Whatever the case, no engine 85 and up I have done had it, kasey has not seen it, and I nor him apparently have any leakdown issues or running problems. So until I see one, I won't care to hunt it down and install it on a watercooled engine.

As far as feather's getting ruffled, I am not.It is a perfectly legit discussion on here, and I am perfectly open to learning new things. If in fact some engines had that O-ring it would be news to me, and I am perfectly willing to accept it, and learn it. But still I hold fast to have never seen an oring there.

[LastFoolerInVA]

The links I posted are for an 85 watercooled. DC's link was for a 84 aircooled which undoubtedly runs that o-ring.
The original question was for the watercooled engine not the air cooled.

As far as feather's getting ruffled, I am not.It is a perfectly legit discussion on here, and I am perfectly open to learning new things. If in fact some engines had that O-ring it would be news to me, and I am perfectly willing to accept it, and learn it. But still I hold fast to have never seen an oring there.

aha... I see that now Saul

no feathers ruffled... this is exactly what threads r for... info... & not everybody always has the same

[yaegerb]

So....
Carlos from BDT motorsports called me this morning on some parts I am having built so I decided to ask him about this "mysterious o-ring". He said that NO 3rd gen watercooled 250R's (85-86) came from the factory with this o-ring as shown in the micro fische's that Mosh has posted, thanks mosh! He said that if you pull the bushing off the crankshaft (clutch) side you will see a tiny recess. This is where shops sometimes put an o-ring to seal up the cases during a pressure test if a builder notices that pressure is dropping during a pressure test. Furthermore, he said when performing a pressure test, its a telltale sign that air is seeping past that bushing/seal if the pressure drops .5 lb's in 10 minutes. So long story short that o-ring is a preventative measure for having a completely sealed motor. Lastly, he said the 99.9% of the time you don't need the o-ring because the viscosity of the oil will typically seal around the bushing and seal.

Whew...I feel better :)