85 250es starts off kicker not e-start batt is good and starter

[honda4h]

here is the deal my bike will not start off the e-starter batt good, starter good , starter gears good, one way bearing good. rolls over fine. will not attempt to start but when i kick it bang starts right up. i will ride it for a bit try again with the e-starter rolls over fine/strong but will not start. kick it starts right up. this is a newly acquainted bike. i have had lots of 250 es and sx bikes this is a first for me. with this issue. wtf i consider my self big red knowledgeable rebuilt engines. wiring issues. etc. but this takes the cake. so what do you guys and gals think?

[yamaha225dr]

It sounds to me like the starter isn't spinning the engine over fast enough to create combustion. This can happen if the low speed fuel air mixture is out of adjustment. I have seen atv's have this problem and only start by being pushed or pulled by something else. How well does it idle? I assume good, since you didn't mention a problem but other then some kind of electrical gremlin only showing up when you use the electric start, I don't have any other suggestions.

[ps2fixer]

Just an odd idea, can you kick start it with out the battery hooked up? I'm thinking the engine might not be producing enough power to spark while the starter is engaged, unless that is a completely seperate circuit. You could rule this out by using a 2nd battery (say from your car) and jumping the starter with the key on. If it starts, it is related to the draw while starting off the battery, if not, then I would have to say it would have to be what Yamaha225dr said.

[tri again]

I've got the same issue with an 87 250es.
Funny thing is it starts with 1/2 kick.

If I crank the starter for 3 or 4 seconds, it will start instantly
when I let OFF the start button.

Seems like ps2 is barking up the right tree.

[honda4h]

bike runs well good power spark plug is tan color rolls over fast/normal. idle's perfect. runs the same without the battery starts 1/2-full kick good. and i have tried another battery same crap. i have not looked to see if there is spark when i'm trying to start with the e-start. i will look tomorrow.

[dougspcs]

I've heard of this condition also but until now not given it much thought, but now my brother is having the same issue.

He says it starts with e-start well when cold, but after warmup it cranks over but basically refuses and he has to kick it..

I'll be tackling it this weekend and hope to discover the cause!

[ps2fixer]

My guess would be CDI box or a weak pickup coil. I would think if someone used an external battery to crank the engine over (positive on the starter and ground anywhere on the frame to crank), it would tell you if it is related to the power draw of starting the machine. Don't have any with the same issue, but most of mine I kick start lol.

[dougspcs]

I'm thinking you're pretty warm in that too Cory.

Thinking I'll get a spark tester and compare spark tension both while kicking or using estart to crank the engine. Should be a measureable difference..then just start tracking the cause!

One of my thoughts would be a faulty engine ground..since the single ground completes both the starter and ignition circuit!

Remove and cleaning that ground strap connection will be my 1st step.

[Dave8338]

Pull the connects apart, clean them well with copper pipe cleaner/paste used for soldering copper tubing, and treat all the connections with dielectric grease and put it back together. Pay special attention to the grounds. Often times, there is enough resistance in the starting circuit wires, that they rob enough volts while cranking the starter, that there isn't enough juice left to fire the coil. When they start after you let off the starter button, it is because the engine is still spinning enough to fire AND you are no longer drawing juice from the DC system.

Hope this helps.

[Flossyb20]

Have you though about trying another starter? That starter sits right on top of the engine an gets hot...this happens quite a bit in cars, the heat will warp the bearings and such inside the starter, and cause to use too much current to spin it over, thereby robbing what you need for a good spark. Your spark should be blue to white, not yellow....I have an SX myself, but haven't run across this problem, just speculating

[dougspcs]

Pull the connects apart, clean them well with copper pipe cleaner/paste used for soldering copper tubing, and treat all the connections with dielectric grease and put it back together. Pay special attention to the grounds. Often times, there is enough resistance in the starting circuit wires, that they rob enough volts while cranking the starter, that there isn't enough juice left to fire the coil. When they start after you let off the starter button, it is because the engine is still spinning enough to fire AND you are no longer drawing juice from the DC system.

Hope this helps.



Have you though about trying another starter? That starter sits right on top of the engine an gets hot...this happens quite a bit in cars, the heat will warp the bearings and such inside the starter, and cause to use too much current to spin it over, thereby robbing what you need for a good spark. Your spark should be blue to white, not yellow....I have an SX myself, but haven't run across this problem, just speculating

Sound theory Flossy and Dave and for a car totally right. Because in a car electrical the power for the ignition is drawn from the battery. If the starter is pulling the voltage too low during cranking then then voltage on the coil could drop to say as low as 4 volts, not enough to fire the coil..no spark.

But in our trikes the power for the coil is coming from the stator so even if there was no battery voltage or it was being drawn low by the starter it wouldn't really matter.

But since the engine ground strap is the common for both starting and ignition circuits. If corroded there isn't enough contact to close both circuits at the same time..

[honda4h]

well this bike may be sold soon. i will look at the possible issues you guys talked about. if i cant fix it i will drop the price. and off she goes. i just haven't got the time. the building season is in full swing i'm just to dam tired after work. but i will find out the issue if it dose not sell. it's a weird issue cold or hot starting not a chance of fire it's like it's off on the kill switch

[ps2fixer]

If you were closer to me I would buy it for the right price, or just swap parts/check connections with all of my spares.

[rouseanator]

I had a sx that would kick start but wouldnt e start it ended up being the ignition cut it and put the 2 wires for run together and then the e start works fine thought it was the solinoid at first cause i would take a screw driver and touch the 2 screws on the solenoid and it would start without even pushing the estart button swaped another solenoid from my bigred and it did the samething also when i got the bigred the ignition was toast i bought a new ignition of ebay for 40 bucks comes with 2 keys

[dougspcs]

solinoid at first cause i would take a screw driver and touch the 2 screws on the solenoid and it would start without even pushing the estart button swaped another solenoid from my bigred and it did the samething also

Umm, dude..of course it will do this..the solenoid is basically a big switch triggered by the starter button sending heavy current to the start..

You hit the two big contacts with a screw driver you are shorting the current directly to the starter..this is an old backyard mechanic test to see if the reason you engine won't crank is in anyway starter switch related..

[dougspcs]

If you were closer to me I would buy it for the right price, or just swap parts/check connections with all of my spares.

Then sell it to me..oops my hoarding just flared up! Best go take my pills...wait, I don't take pills!!

[ps2fixer]

Then sell it to me..oops my hoarding just flared up! Best go take my pills...wait, I don't take pills!!

How about you buy it, bring it to me and we get it fixed up? We could split profits (if resold) lol.

[rouseanator]

um dude just saying that in my case i thought the solenoid wasn't working cause if it had a bad one the estart wouldn't work but it did work with a screw driver could have been a bad solenoid if a switch wasn't working but you bypass it, it should work..... but mine had the same symptoms would kick start easy but estart wouldn't and end result it was the key switch bypassed that switch by cutting the wires and puting the run wires together it worked and that let me know when it worked it was safe to order a new key work
Umm, dude..of course it will do this..the solenoid is basically a big switch triggered by the starter button sending heavy current to the start..

You hit the two big contacts with a screw driver you are shorting the current directly to the starter..this is an old backyard mechanic test to see if the reason you engine won't crank is in anyway starter switch related..

[honda4h]

i'm going to try another switch i have 3 or 4 lying around. but i tried the e-starter with the plug out i have a nice blue spark it should start its got gas. i put it in no start.a kick it starts up. i'm thinking compression the kick may be faster/quicker. then the e-start and yes the starter is strong i tried it on my other big red. swapped them etc. pic of the trouble maker 167170

[tri again]

Come to think of it, I had one that really wanted to be on compression stroke for kicking
and would start instantly.
But the starter would spin great and nothing would happen even tho I had spark and fuel like you mention. Might have been an 84 es as I recall.

I've got an 87 that will kick fire every time and will estart when I let OFF the starter button
if the engine is still spinning a little.

Guess it's time to get out there and see what I can figure out.

[dougspcs]

Well my brother brought his trike in for it's big maintenance..great looking machine, mostly formality but I tore into everything to clean and check the machine top to bottom.

Besides the starting issue that some of you others have had..

Anyway, I saw nothing out of the ordinary on this trike..battery, ignition, starter circuit..all good.

The carb had been removed and cleaned by the PO, but I took it out just the same. It was pretty clean but two things jumped out at me, 1st the intake boot clamp was pretty loose during disassemble. 2nd, while blowing out the carb jets a small spider nest flew out of one of the jets..

Once reinstalled it's starts and runs perfectly..on Estart.

Not to say that this is the only possible cause of this symptom, but I hope this gives you guys another you guys hints where to look.

[HamboneKS]

guess I'm reviving an old thread here, but no one ever seemed to solve this one. Now I'm having the exact same issue posed by the OP.

It will only start on e-start after letting off the starter button, if the engine has enough momentum to roll over and fire with the start button disengaged.

any new thoughts on this?

[ps2fixer]

I didn't reread the thread, but if the starter is drawing so much to hinder the ignition system, prime targets would be weak/low battery (try jumper cables to your car battery if possible), weak ignition (cdi or coil), or the starter's getting worn and is drawing excess power even though it spins fast enough. Another thing could be wiring and connection quality which I guess the starter solenoid could fall into this category if it's internal contacts are getting worn out.

[RUNMEDOWN]

I have a similar issue; my 250es fires first kick but after adding a new battery it would not electric start turns out I popped the little weird shaped fuse. I ordered new ones but I jumped the fuse block the lights came on but still no electric start. One odd thing; without the fuse block jumped the headlight would dim when the engine was revved. That is the opposite of my non-battery ATCs

[HamboneKS]

So I was riding it without electric start or even a battery, and it did the same thing where the light would dim when I revved it up. I was bored at work the other day so I read the trouble shooting section in the manual (found a copy here online) and it actually had 3 possible causes of " electric starter cranks but bike won't fire". One possible cause was a bad kill switch. No idea why, but my kill switch is frozen..... I'm digging into it tomorrow and hoping that's it

[RUNMEDOWN]

So I was riding it without electric start or even a battery, and it did the same thing where the light would dim when I revved it up. I was bored at work the other day so I read the trouble shooting section in the manual (found a copy here online) and it actually had 3 possible causes of " electric starter cranks but bike won't fire". One possible cause was a bad kill switch. No idea why, but my kill switch is frozen..... I'm digging into it tomorrow and hoping that's it
It would seem to me (Read as uneducated guess) that what the manual is suggesting is that if the kill switch is bad, it is grounding the kill thus not letting the engine spark so that is what is stopping the electric starter from starting the trike. If that is the case; the trike would not start with the kick either. It would be the same as leaving the run switch in the off position

[ps2fixer]

It would seem to me (Read as uneducated guess) that what the manual is suggesting is that if the kill switch is bad, it is grounding the kill thus not letting the engine spark so that is what is stopping the electric starter from starting the trike. If that is the case; the trike would not start with the kick either. It would be the same as leaving the run switch in the off position

That would be correct. Another way to test that theory is to disconnect the kill switch wire (black with white stripe from memory), but it might be in a multi pin connector.

[honda4h]

i never found the issue with my bike. i sold it years ago.

[Chopsaw]

My 85 red is in the same spot , no e start kicks right over . At first it would crank , but no start until I released the button . Now it cranks over , no start . Fires up on first kick . I'm gonna look at it , jump it first , then maybe change out the starter .

[Hair Bear Bunch]

I had a similar issue with a Kawasaki quad. Kick it over with the plug out = good spark, estart = no spark at all.
The loom had been hacked about quite badly and without a manual it was pure trial and error but I found a wire that had 12v on it and when touched to earth there was a tiny spark - not a short circuit crack - and with that wire earthed I had a spark with the estart. Put the plug back in and it started first time.
Not suggesting your loom has been cut about, but worth double checking connectors and earth pionts.

[HamboneKS]

That's such a simple troubleshoot!!! Hadn't thought of pulling the plug to watch for spark, duh.
I tore into the kill switch yesterday, and both wires running to the switch have continuity to ground, which seems weird.

[HamboneKS]

I got everything put together and tried the electric start with the plug out and it has spark while cranking. Put it back together and it wil just crank and crank and then backfire really loud. It will start sometimes if I let off the button at exactly the right moment. So frustrating, maybe it's just a kickstart bike

[Hair Bear Bunch]

Fresh plug? Older plugs can break down under compression.

[HamboneKS]

I'll give that a try. I narrowed the plug gap and it did a little better. Maybe just a weak spark