1984 Honda 200es starter issue

[jdtench]

Okay, I do know I should search the forum first before asking for help and I have done so. I have scoured all over the different posts and none of them have what I am experiencing. Here it is.
I just rebuilt this trike last year. A fresh top end rebuild and some elbow grease to get it looking pretty and it was at 90% done. It was rideable so I rode it. I put a fresh battery in it and it worked great. Towards the end of the summer, the battery seemed like it was losing its charge and wouldn't start the trike with the starter. After I rode it a bit, it seemed like it would charge and would then crank with the starter. When I got the machine out today to start it the first time this year, it again would not start on the button. I wasn't surprised because of what had been happening last year. So, I decided I was going to charge the battery. I hooked it up to the charger, set it to 2 amps, and after 90 seconds it said fully charged...:wondering So, I put it back in the trike and I heard a clicking coming from where the starter solenoid is. After a couple of more tries, the clicking stopped and now there is just a faint noise that occurs when the button is released (still coming from the same region). The neutral light will dim when the button is pushed so I know it is drawing current. Signs point to the solenoid being bad. I got out the digital multimeter and tested the starter when the button was being pressed and it is getting no power. This sounds textbook except...
The trike will run, I pull it and it starts fine. However, when I flip on the headlight, the neutral light goes completely dim. There is also about a 1.5 second delay from flipping the switch until the light coming on. I know a little bit of dimming will occur on the neutral light, but this seems extreme. I am wondering if I have two separate problems here. I know the '84 200es BRs are notorious for wacky electrical issues and I was hoping one wouldn't find mine, but this is what is going on. I know my battery charger is still good and I do believe the battery is charged. If it is the starter solenoid, okay, I can fix that. But, if something else is going on to cause the weirdness with the neutral light, I'm at a loss. I wanted to post this to see if any one thinks the two are related. Thanks!
http://i1240.photobucket.com/albums/gg488/jdtench/IMG_0289.jpg

[cajun66]

Check all your grounds?

[jdtench]

I'll check the negative battery terminal ground tomorrow. Thanks!

[jdtench]

Sanded down the negative ground and that didn't help. I did hook a jumper cable to the battery, put the negative on an engine mount, and bumped the starter connector with the positive end and it started the engine. So, it has to be the starter solenoid. Like I thought, textbook. I'll get this fixed and maybe mess with the light dimming issue at a later time.

[kb0nly]

Starter solenoid for sure, as you discovered... As for the lighting issue take apart your handlebar switch pod and clean up the contacts for the lighting switch. They get corroded and cause a high resistance connection, the current starts to flow they warm up from the resistance and make a better connection and then the lights come on. I kid you not, i know this sounds science fiction but i have had this happen three times now on trikes. Usually the contact show some signs of arcing from this happening but sometimes they just looked all corroded.

Also take apart the fuse holder under the seat and clean it up as needed, that can become a bad connection over time as well. Mine was doing the exact same thing regarding the starting, i couldn't find an exact match on the 200ES starter solenoid so i bought one close to it and then spliced on the wiring connector from the old solenoid and that fixed it right up.

[Gearheadtom]

if the solenoids are the same as the 200e and the 200m, you can take it apart and clean the contacts on the inside, just be careful that you don't break the wires off where they connect on the inside.

[kb0nly]

The one i had was permanently riveted together but i have seen the ones you talk about that can be taken apart.

[jdtench]

I ordered one and will be putting it on soon. When I have some free time I'll look at the connectors. Do I have to take apart the assembly mounted on the handlebars...or are the connectors all in the headlight housing?

[kb0nly]

All the wiring connections are in the headlight, but i would check the starter switch also. Remove the screw from the bottom of the switch pod on the handlebar and the start button will come off and you can check and clean it. Usually the one wire breaks off in there and needs to be resoldered.

[jdtench]

Replaced the starter solenoid...that didn't help. I checked the start button, removed it, everything still intact. I guess I'll pull the wiring out of the headlight and inspect all of that next. Neutral light still goes dim when pressed though. Starter does start the engine when I bump it with jumper cables from the truck. Anything else I might be missing? Is there a ground that I could be missing? I cleaned the negative battery ground and that didn't help. Any others?

[kb0nly]

Could be the start lockout relay by the voltage regulator on the back of the battery box. I forget what Honda actually called it but its just a relay used to keep starter from working unless in neutral and since its wired in with the neutral light it could be causing the dimming. I eliminated it on mine. Just have to cut and splice the two wires the relay switches. You can unplug it and jumper with a piece of wire to test first.

[jdtench]

That's the part that I replaced. I'll jump it tomorrow and see if that's the issue.

[tri again]

Could be the start lockout relay by the voltage regulator on the back of the battery box. I forget what Honda actually called it but its just a relay used to keep starter from working unless in neutral and since its wired in with the neutral light it could be causing the dimming. I eliminated it on mine. Just have to cut and splice the two wires the relay switches. You can unplug it and jumper with a piece of wire to test first.

I went through that with mine, maybe called rev limiter in there too so you can't go full throttle in reverse.
sorry to say I gave up and traded them off.
The only usable info I have is that people have replaced entire harnesses only to admit the old harnesses were probably ok but due to the fact that they HAD to go through every connection, they magically work.

I'm trying to figure out if he changed the solenoid but still only works with a jump from the truck.

I spent weeks on mine going blind with a wire diagram before I gave up.
AND I had a know working perfect 200es right next to it to swap KNOWN working parts with.

I must be gettin' old.

I bet it's something simple.
I'd check Engine and frame grounds first and then every other connection on the machine.

More fun to work on near a toolbox than out in the woods, for sure.
Glad it starts perfectly with the rope.
Saves a lot of 'if's'.

[kb0nly]

Its either that small relay, starter solenoid, or a bad connection somewhere thats all i have ever dealt with on them.

That small relay is inline with the start button, so if the start button isn't working thats the most likely cause if the wiring in the button is ok. There is four wires to that small relay, this is not the starter solenoid its another small relay on the back of the battery box by the regulator, there is a gray and yellow/red wire, leave them alone. There is two Green/Red wires, those two need to be jumped. I just looked at the schematic they called it the inhibitor relay. Basically this is how it works, the neutral switch provides the ground for the neutral light and the inhibitor relay coil, when you put it in neutral it turns on the neutral light and turns on that small relay, which closes the connection for the start button to turn on the ground to the starter solenoid and turn over the starter. So without that relay closing your start button won't work. I cut Green/Red wires from the plug, soldered them together and put on some heatshrink and just tapped the harness back up to that relay. Since your getting a dimmed neutral light, which i was at one time also, i just unplugged that small relay from the remaining two wires, the coil in the relay draws power when connected, and if the coil is going bad it will draw even more, causing the light to dim.

If you want you can unplug that inhibitor relay, strip a piece of wire and shove it in the terminals for the two Green/Red wires and see if the starter works, if that fixes it, just leave the relay unplugged and splice those Green/Red wires together and done!

[jdtench]

You guys have been great. I have plenty of ideas to try. Didn't get to look at it today, but I will look to see if I can find that relay. kb0nly, thank you for looking up that part name. I have the shop manual, owners manual, and wiring schematic for the machine and none of them (that I could find) mention the inhibitor relay. But, I was able to find pictures of what it looks like and am pretty sure I can find it thanks to you giving me the actual name for it. So, here's what I'm going to try:

1) Use a screwdriver and jump the solenoid to see if it starts that way (to test the solenoid)
2) Find the inhibitor relay and jump the Green/Red wires (will leave the gray and yellow/red wire completely alone attached to the inhibitor relay)

Oh, I just installed a new DG exhaust on it. The other one had a broken pipe on the muffler pipe where the head pipe and muffler connect (which, by the way, is still usable if you're comfortable welding. The head pipe is in good shape, the muffler pipe looks a little thin, but the muffler itself is in good shape.) The DG is a lot louder than I was thinking it would be, but I didn't want to fork over the extra $ for stock exhaust. The DG was much cheaper. I am also going to tackle replacing the clutch shoes and discs later in the spring, but that should be straight forward. These electrical issues are a pain to diagnose (well, has been made easier thanks to you guys).

EDIT: I found this picture on another website of someone else having the same issue. They found a shop manual reference for the inhibitor relay in a TRX200 Fourtrax manual.
http://i1240.photobucket.com/albums/gg488/jdtench/InhibitorRelay.jpeg

[kb0nly]

I'm betting its the inhibitor relay, as i have had to bypass that on two of these now... LOL

I have the DG exhaust on mine as well, yes a little louder than stock, but it runs so dang nice with it!

[jdtench]

I agree, mine runs very good with it on. All the sputters and spurts are gone. Very smooth.

UPDATE: Ok, I jumped the inhibitor relay, no difference. So, I decided to run a wire straight from the positive battery terminal to the starter. The neutral light dimmed, but nothing. So, I hooked up some jumper cables from the truck battery right to the atc battery and it s l o w l y turned the starter. I then removed them and the starter wouldn't budge. Put the jumper cables BACK on the truck, but this time put the negative on the atc frame and bumped the starter's connector with the positive end and it barely spun. So, I'm pretty sure that the electrical components are okay and the starter itself is the issue. I'm thinking it will spin off the truck battery because it has higher amps than the atc battery. I'm going to remove the starter, clean it (or rebuild it) and hopefully that will fix the issue. Luckily, the machine is running so good right now that it only takes one pull to start it, so it isn't that big of a deal. But, it sure would be nice to have that electric start back. I took a video of some of the ordeal, here it is.
http://i1240.photobucket.com/albums/gg488/jdtench/th_3B895BD9-662F-4C7C-9B60-75101B808632-1623-0000046AC73D0EE5.jpg (http://i1240.photobucket.com/albums/gg488/jdtench/3B895BD9-662F-4C7C-9B60-75101B808632-1623-0000046AC73D0EE5.mp4)
NOTE: From watching the video, it looks like the battery might be weak. But, I put it on a charger and my charger says it is at full charge. Also, when I bump the starter while the machine is running (I know it's a no no, but...) the starter won't spin. With the extra juice from the stator I would think that if the battery was low, the starter would still spin if the engine is running. I also want to mention that there is no noise whatsoever coming from the starter, even when running. I know the starter clutch can sometimes get stuck which means the starter spins the entire time the engine is running.

[kb0nly]

Sounds like a bad starter then i would agree... I would take it off and go through it, clean the rotor and check the brushes. There are kits on ebay for $17-$20 to replace the brush holder plate and brushes, could be a bad winding to, won't know until you test. There is a good supply of used and new starters out there though so no worry. I bought a couple off of ebay for $30 a while back.

If you have a test light or voltmeter i would remove the cable from the starter and use your meter or test light on the starter cable and push the start button, is there voltage there? That would just be a last test of the electrical system. The fact that the light dims and even jumper starting it barely spins it i'm sure your right on the starter.

[jdtench]

Ordered a rebuild kit off Ebay, should be here Thursday. I'll keep you guys updated. So far I think this thread will be a great resource in the future for others with the same issue.

[honda4h]

can the relay cause no spark? along with the starter relay not clicking. i tested it and its good but will not rollover or try to start with the button.

[kb0nly]

No, the relay can't cause no spark, the starter and lighting system along with the battery are totally independent of the ignition system. Which is why you can pull start then with a dead or no battery at all and keep on running.

If it won't start with the button you have to go through it all, start button switch, inhibitor relay, starter solenoid/relay, etc...

[jdtench]

kb, I've ran into two issues with the DG exhaust and I was wondering if you had the same. The first, did you have to find another place to mount the hitch support bars? The muffler is in the way now and I can't mount it where it used to mount to. I think I need to drill new holes into the grab bar to mount it to. Second, it has been fouling plugs like every 5 minutes. It ran awesome for 5 minutes, then sputtered and finally stopped. Checked the plug and it was dry and black. Cleaned it with a wire brush, did the same exact thing after 5 minutes. I fiddled with the mixture screw and tried to lean it out some, but it wouldn't run right if I leaned it out any more. So, I thought of another way. I raised the needle on the pilot jet from the 3rd notch to the second notch (giving it more needle) and I ran it all day today with out any issues. So, that seems to have fixed my problem. Did you run into this with yours?

Oh, I got my electrical issues fixed (for now). I charged the battery (even though I tried that a month ago and it told me the battery was at full charge), put it back in and everything is working. The battery was put in last year. At some point last summer the battery would barely spin the starter and when I pulled the trike out this year, I had these issues. I'm thinking that the battery might be bad or the stator is going bad and not charging, but I did run the bike without the battery in it (I know, not supposed to) and flipped on the lights (again, I know) and they worked. Dim, but worked. So, seems like the stator is producing juice. I might take it back to the store and have them test it.

[kb0nly]

I didn't have that fitment issue with the DG exhaust, just bolted right on with the single bolt on the muffler tab, do you have it high enough? The tab will also match up with the lower hole from the original muffler since it had two, but then the muffler is at a downward angle, the muffler should be level and straight back.

I didn't have to adjust the needle, it worked great with the free flowing DG exhaust. If you do still get a lot of plug fouling its either your running too rich or your CDI is going to heck on you. There has been multiple 200ES owners on here that changed their CDI after i did and wrote up a post on how to rewire for a newer CDI unit and they generally reported cleaner plugs without any adjustments to the carb. If you moved the clip up one notch that means you dropped the needle lower, making the fuel mixture leaner, watch your plug closely and make sure its a nice tanish/brown and your not to lean!

I have gone through two batteries now on mine. The don't last long, and up here in the colder latitudes they die in the winter pretty easily. I have been thinking of spending the money for a AGM battery for it, they are spendy but maybe worth it. I put a Optima AGM battery in my Jeep and man what a difference cold starting in the coldest winter temps.

You said they were dim running without the battery, thats normal, but did you try revving up beyond idle? They should brighten up with the increase in RPM and voltage, if thats the case the stator is fine. Won't know until you get a known good battery installed, have that one tested or replace, and then monitor the voltage while running for a while and see if the battery comes up to 13-14v while running.

[jdtench]

Checked the plug again after it started sputtering and was barely running, still black. I backed the clip up to the very top position (giving it the most needle) and ran it for about 30 minutes, same thing. I saw another post that you mentioned buying another cdi unit (without the reverse safety switch) and the parts to rewire the plug to a square connector, so I ordered one. Should be here later in the week. Hopefully that will solve the black plug situation. I am also going to put a brand spanking new plug in it the second I put the new cdi on.

I am in the process of replacing the clutches. Had to go to 3 different stores until I found one that carried a 30mm deep socket to get the centrifugal clutch off. I am also going to have to make one of those nifty tools to remove the nut on the manual clutch. So far, the hardest part of the job has been getting the right crankcase cover off!

[jdtench]

Alright, I think I opened up a can of worms doing the clutches. I followed the shop manual to the letter. As soon as I put it in gear, it jumps forward and dies. I've read that this is because the new shoes are engaging too early, but another post mentioned that they will wear down after a little while and be fine. I rode it around a while today and it never got any better. Also, I've adjusted the manual clutch exactly as the book specifies, and as soon as I move the gear shift lever, it changes gear. I can't move the lever and experience a "neutral," it is still in gear. It changes gears, but there isn't that neutral feeling when the clutch is lifted. Could this be because of the shoes as well?

EDIT: Also, it won't roll backwards while in gear.

[kb0nly]

The CDI swap should make a difference, two other owners on here posted up in my CDI thread that they changed the CDI and didn't make any carb changes and the plug cleared up. So i think its weak spark and a lot of unburnt fuel. Set your needle back to stock, check your jet sizes and adjust the mixture screw, get it running on the new CDI and drive around a while then check the plug again. Only way to get them tuned right is warmed up and adjust the mixture and read the plug.

As for the clutch... Sounds like its staying engaged when it should release, i would take it back apart and check everything, also check the clutch adjustment screw, make sure thats set right. It must be binding somewhere, the last clutch i put in definitely improved take off and holding on the hills but it didn't have any of the symptoms your describing.

And yeah taking that right cover off is just dang fun ain't it? Make sure you clean the oil slinger in there good when you have it apart. Mine took a couple plastic wedges and a rubber mallet and lots of cussing to get it off.

[jdtench]

Ok, tore into again today. I noticed that my new clutch shoes completely filled up the centrifugal clutch drum. Luckily, I still had the original shoes and I put them back in there. They still had a pretty good bit of pad on them. (I've read in other posts that people have to grind down some of the pad on the new ones to get them to work.) I also took the manual clutch back apart and put it back together (with the new clutch pads and heavy duty springs). I think I saw a washer that wasn't in the correct place. Tightened everything down and put the cover back on. Put oil back in it and fired it up. It works great! I only replaced the clutch pads, not the shoes. They seem to be pretty good for now. There is no more slipping between gears. It grabs and goes! I haven't had a chance to really ride it since I changed the cdi, but it does run better and many of the sputters are gone. It idles great! Haven't rode it hard yet to test the higher rpms. Not many places to ride around here. I really appreciate your help through all of this.

[kb0nly]

Sounds awesome! Good job on it.

[jdtench]

Ok, was still having trouble with it turning plugs black and then not running. I did notice that it was smoking a little, but I just had a bore job and new valves put in it. I read in another post that too much oil in the engine can cause the crankcase pressure to build up and oil can be blown into the combustion chamber past the rings and make it smoke. I checked my oil level and it was a little higher than the full mark. Drained a little out and got it exactly half way between the marks, put in a fresh plug (not that cheap nowadays) and ran it. Ran completely different. Wouldn't even idle. So I played with the mixture (set back to factory) and got it idling great. Checked the plug after a quick romp around the yard and it was white! Not black! Which makes sense because I out the DG on it. Turned the mixture half a turn out to richen it up and ran it about 3 mins and it is starting to tan up now. So my whole problem was too much oil. Well, and I'm also running 90 octane ethanol free gas in it right now. That stuff is pricey down here. Running like a top :)

[kb0nly]

Just keep an eye on the oil level a while and make sure its not using any oil also! If you ever put in lower grade fuel you might have to give it a tweak but sounds like you got it running good! I don't run anything more than good old 89 octane 10% ethanol up here.