1987 250ES funny spark story. Need to know why

[tri again]

So yes, I have one of 4,000 of the 250es models.

Electric start works great but it won't start.

Hang with me for a second.

So after a few 5 second e. start cranks, I let off the start button and the sucker fired instantly.
when I let OFF the starter button.

Seems like it will Not throw spark when the starter is spinning.

1/4 kick will start it.

Funny that when I let OFF the e start button, it had enough inertia
to fire and run because it had juuuust enough spin after the starter was let off.

Where should I look first other than everywhere.

Glad to have an interesting problem for a change.

Hope everyone is enjoying the 'spring'.

[Gripit'n'ripit]

Can you repeat the action with the same results in anyway? Has this happened 2 or 3 times or just the once.

[dustrunner]

i had a big red that would always start faster with the kick and then the starter finally went...we put a new starter on it and it always started right up... so possibly the starter...

[tri again]

Can you repeat the action with the same results in anyway? Has this happened 2 or 3 times or just the once.

Good question.
As I recall, the e start works (actually fires the engine) when it's warm.

When it's cold, easier to choke and half kick it.

Maybe the starter is dragging too much current to allow any extra to the sparkplug
like 124356 mentioned.

Thanks youse guys

[RubberSalt]

It's the battery /starter/solenoid

Basically the battery is causing a massive load on the battery, not enough juice for it to fire the plug. When you let off, it has enough juice to fire. My KLT200 does the same with a weak battery.

Now if you have a worn/dirty solenoid, it will draw extra current to crank the starter over. I’m not sure about the 87 big red, but my 77 gl1000, I was able to pull the solenoid apart and lap the inside contacts clean and it starts much better.

[philgipson]

voltage drop while cranking.some cds will not fire below 9v,bad battery or high amp draw.

[thestud25]

So yes, I have one of 4,000 of the 250es models.

.

There were actually 4889 produced, so they say :lol:

Sounds like your CDI is fritzing!

[dustrunner]

There were actually 4889 produced, so they say :lol:

Sounds like your CDI is fritzing! just in 87 or combined with 85 and 86 ?

[thestud25]

just in 87 or combined with 85 and 86 ?

Just in 1987 model, way more in 85-86.

[kb0nly]

Ok hold on a second.... I'm confused here because this comes up a lot.

How do you guys associate a battery/starter problem to cause issues with the CDI or spark?? They are two TOTALLY separate systems on these Honda's. You don't need a battery to even run the engine, you don't need a battery, regulator/rectifier, as a matter of fact i had a running junker one time that didn't even have the alternator coil/stator in it, ATC200, it just had the ignition coil.

These trikes have TWO electrical systems... One is the ignition, the other is the Battery Charging and Lighting along with the electric start. At NO point do they cross over. There is not power from the battery or that side of the electrical system to the CDI unit or coil, the CDI is run purely off its own coil which is part of the stator. I have seen 250's that run fine but have no voltage output on the alternator to the regulator/rectifier to charge the battery and power the lights.

I don't mean to sound like an ass here, just want to get to the bottom of this once and for all because it seems like once a week we get a question similar and everyone starts suggesting that the weak spark is due to a bad battery or low voltage when it has nothing to do with the ignition system.

Ok that said....

It sounds to me like the starter might not be spinning it over fast enough or the starter is worn and dragging, did you pull the spark plug and spin it over with the starter to see if its actually sparking when cranking with the electric start? My 200ES will do something similar when its cold outside, it won't always fire with the e-start but i can almost always get it to fire in 2-3 pulls with the choke on and using the recoil starter instead. I have another analogy that concerns the CDI, it seems like when its cold it likes slower pulses from the recoil or kick starter to allow the voltage to the ignition coil to build, probably because of a weakening capacitor in the CDI. When i rewired my 200ES for a new CDI these slow and intermittent start issues went away. But then the battery isn't strong enough to spin it over fast in the cold, so i still end up using the recoil, but once its warmed up i can use the e-start the rest of the day just fine.

[tri again]

Thanks for all the great ideas.
They all make sense and I've seen this prob on a regular points engine before too.

Hopefully I'll have the luxury of changing parts one at a time
to see exactly which one causes the problem.

Yeah, battery seems good, starter spins nice and fast, prob been sitting for 2 to 3 months with no changes, stabilized non ethanol gas before it was parked.

Now that I think of it, I did pull the plug and it had spark but maybe I should try it with the plug in and just try another spark plug to see what happens when it cranks against compression.
Again, there's nothing slow about the starter (and not too fast).
I know another 250es that has intermittent run trouble with that funny looking fuse (looks like a mini end wrench) so may have to look there too but like kb says, that may just be charging/starter run circuit.
I have one 250 es 1985 that has never had a battery and all ignition switch wires are disconnected. Startes with a kick or 2, neutral and other lights work great when it's running.
The only engine electrical control is the kill switch.
I see now what happens when we don't ride for a couple months. I must forget faster than I learn in the winter.

Thanks for the update on the production numbers btw.
I wonder if that's worldwide or usa.

[atc007]

My moneys on CDI. Thanx for class KB,great explanation. I'll personally say this. I had a Yamaha 200 w the same exact problem years ago. Sold it long before I got to work on it.. But I 'm quite sure you're in need of a new cdi here Tri again.

[thestud25]

Ok hold on a second.... I'm confused here because this comes up a lot.

How do you guys associate a battery/starter problem to cause issues with the CDI or spark?? They are two TOTALLY separate systems on these Honda's. You don't need a battery to even run the engine, you don't need a battery, regulator/rectifier, as a matter of fact i had a running junker one time that didn't even have the alternator coil/stator in it, ATC200, it just had the ignition coil.



I am fully aware that they are two separate systems. Usually when there is an erratic issue with spark it is either the CDI, or coil. I didn't read that it kick starts just fine, so my bad. It would seem that the rest of what you said is correct and that it may in fact not be turning quick enough.

There may also be a short in the actual handle bar start assembly.

[kb0nly]

I am fully aware that they are two separate systems. Usually when there is an erratic issue with spark it is either the CDI, or coil. I didn't read that it kick starts just fine, so my bad. It would seem that the rest of what you said is correct and that it may in fact not be turning quick enough.

There may also be a short in the actual handle bar start assembly.

Very good point there on the short.... Thats something else i usually forget at first, the run/kill switch on these can be a real PITA sometimes. I have had to take a few of them apart. It may seem like a coincidence but its actually not, your pressing the start button on that control, when you let off of it it might rattle it enough to let the kill switch unshort. To rule it out unplug the kill switch from the handlebar controls up in the headlight, then see if it starts with the e-start. You can also easily take that handlebar control apart and give it a good cleaning and inspection. I have had to go through mine on my 200ES a couple times, the second time i polished all the contacts, greased everything with dielectric grease and now no more intermittent kill switch issues.

[kb0nly]

My moneys on CDI. Thanx for class KB,great explanation. I'll personally say this. I had a Yamaha 200 w the same exact problem years ago. Sold it long before I got to work on it.. But I 'm quite sure you're in need of a new cdi here Tri again.

Generally problems like this are a CDI, my money is on it also. I have fought so many CDI issues, but its worth checking every part of the ignition system just to freshen it up and go over it, new plug, clean up end of plug wire, clean up wiring connections, etc. Its a bugger sometimes when we don't ride these a few months or so at a time and a problem crept in while we were gone.

I have started changing over troublesome wiring connections to weatherpack connectors to eliminate them once and for all, my 200ES sits outside year round, tarped off of course most of the time, but its exposed to weather changes and thats hard on the electrical stuff. Slowly i have replaced most of the wiring connections using a box of weatherpack connectors. They are the best solution i have found for any exposed wiring on trailers and trikes, etc.