Keister's 400X build - VIDEO - Page 8

[keister]

After snapping my frame again on the last Hatfield McCoy ride, I decided it was time to tear the 350X trail bike down and finally make it a 400.
I bought a big bore 400 kit from ATC-Eric a while back for exactly this purpose.
I will keep this thread updated as the build progresses, and will certainly have some questions for the 3WW experts as I go.

First off, special thanks goes to atc350xer (aka. Matt, aaka. "The Enthusiast") for GIVING me this frame to start with.
Also, thanks to Good Time Charlie at UP Chuck Racing (of "Trish" fame) for welding, blasting, gusseting, drilling, tapping, CNC cutting, and powdercoating it.

Here are some pictures of what I have to start with.

157126

157127

[keister]

Here is a better close-up shot of a properly gusseted 350X frame.

157128

I have made a list (big surprise) of the parts I want to replace while I have the motor apart:

Valves
Valve seals (seats)
Valve springs
Timing chain
Copper (exhaust) crush gaskets

Now a couple questions:
1. How does my list look? What am I missing? Any other "must haves" that are relatively inexpensive and worth replacing while the motor is apart?

2. Can anyone recommend a source in which to purchase all of these parts together?
I can obviously buy them one at a time on eBay, but hopefully there is a single stop shop where I can buy all these items together.

[JasonB]

i dont have feed back on the list, but after riding Eric's 400x kits in his bike I can say I would LOVE to own one! I will be watching this build for sure. Frame looks cherry as hell, gussets look stock on it !

[Kintore]

Well done peeps! those 400x's are monsters! cant wait till its done.

[CRAZY70MAN]

Mint Peeper's!!! How big of a beer rack will be on the rear?? You better add some gusset's to it also..:lol: Will it be ready for Icefest???

[keister]

PRM rear grab bar / rack. Fits 18 on ice in a soft cooler or a 30 pack still in the case. This is a trail bike. I will be running the R at RaffaFest.

[90guy]

I am really watching this Build! looking good!

[atctim]

While you are in there - might as well add an oil pump to your list. It is my understanding that you can use a 300EX one - new from Honda. This is what Louis Mielke did with the one he sold me. Someone else can maybe confirm this information is true.

[Mondexbrute]

Here is some inspiration for ya Keister!

http://i779.photobucket.com/albums/yy78/crazyquadrider83/2011-08-08192610.jpg
http://i779.photobucket.com/albums/yy78/crazyquadrider83/2011-06-24163958.jpg

[Louis Mielke]

http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m254/louis_mielke/300vs350oilpump.jpg

:naughty:

[aldochina]

gonna be a sweet build. i thought i read awhile back that you had to do a slight mod to run the 300ex pump? grind something maybe?

[keister]

Louis is always grinding something, but I think this one is more straightforward. I will post pictures when it happens. Thanks, Lou.

[keister]

Here is some inspiration for ya Keister!

Wow!!!! Color me inspired! Looks like we have similar taste in trikes. I too, have a swamp ready Big Red.

Next question to one and all. What to do for a pipe..... New chromed out DG's are readily available on eBay. They are very loud and over $200, but what are my options for a 400X of this nature???

[RoscoW]

Bill I'd opt for a TRX 450 muffler, You can still open (HRC Tip) them up when you want or keep them stock quiet when you need. Should still flow more than the 400 can put thru it. Tappers 600 works well with it and they look good.

Ross..

[atc350xer]

Love the shot of it on the coffee table buddy... I will be watching this build as well... from your garage! Got any mini beers?

[FastZ28]

Next question to one and all. What to do for a pipe..... New chromed out DG's are readily available on eBay. They are very loud and over $200, but what are my options for a 400X of this nature???

I would suggest a 400ex header made to fit and a HMF 400ex muffler. I think Flyin Bryan was doing the headers, or HRE. Maybe you should ask xrider on his pushing the limits 350x.

First post he says he got his from NOS_350X.
http://www.3wheelerworld.com/showthread.php/143634-350x-Motocross-Build-Pushing-the-Limits

[Swinger]

That frame is a thing of beauty!! Great job and will be waiting for more.

[userj8670]

Any updates??? I love all these 350x builds lately

[keister]

This build will be slow, meticulous, and correct. I am collecting parts and advice. Jason Hall gave me carb / jetting advice the other night. My IQ increases every time I talk trikes with him.

Tapper and Bob - It already has a 450R pipe now in 350 form. My headpipe is junk.
Next step: Call Flyin Bryan!

[tapper190]

not sure of the sizes, but I was looking at the early version of the xr500 head pipe. There is no flanges on them so you could machine new ones to fit the 350x exhaust ports. As I said, this is only a thought, no solid measurements to see if it would work, lol
Tapper

[keister]

It took about 4.5 hours total time to tear it down to the frame. Could have done it much quicker but I kept getting distracted by refreshing beverages. Special thanks to Rescue Ray for spearheading this teardown process. When it was complete, there was one small metric bolt picked off the floor and unaccounted for. Not too bad for a couple amateurs.
No I have 3 shelves full of 350X parts in baggies. Tonight the parts cleaning begins -- one Ziploc at a time.
Some pictures:

[ATC-Eric]

Love the frame! I will have to tackle my own complete rebuild maybe next year. Excited to watch things come together here.

[keister]

Ran into a slight snag the other night. This trike has had a case saver the entire 5 years I have owned it. I bet this hole was there the whole time.
Crisis averted. I was lucky enough to acquire a replacement cover.

[keister]

Here is two-thirds of the pipe I want to use. It is a cut down 450R pipe with some fancy custom welds courtesy of Flyin' Bryan. It is also spark arrestor compliant for riding in Michigan and other states that require that sort of thing. Still looking for a headpipe that I can mate up to this.

[keister]

Major news from this past weekend. I happened upon this crate motor - which I believe to be a 1986.

Now the big bore kit can sit on a new platform and I can shelf the OEM piston and cylinder (for now).

[tri-Z ripper]

nice score. going to be a nice heart for that beast

[keister]

But this leads to so many questions;

1. Can anyone tell by looking if this an 86? If so, I will need new electricals. I know the voltage regulators are different. Will I just need a different regulator? or entire wiring harness?

2. I still don't know if my big bore cylinder is 85 or 86. Garry Crum (my 400X advisor) told me there are differences that need to be accounted for, but I'm not sure how to tell what I have.

3. I will be using this stock carb and going way up on the main jet. Stock main says #138 in the manual. What size should I start with? Can anyone recommend a range of sizes to purchase (I presently have no spare jets). And will I need to mess with the pilot jet too, or should that be ok at stock size?

4. Any special tools I will need for this job? I have heard of a vavle spring compressor, and searched eBay for such an animal, but I see many brands, sizes, etc. Can anyone recommend the right tool that fits these exact springs (or ATC's in general)?

Thanks in advance for any insight.....

[ATC-Eric]

That engine is an 86, that I can say for sure. Why do you need a valve spring compressor? Plaining to do work on the head?

[atctim]

2. I still don't know if my big bore cylinder is 85 or 86. Garry Crum (my 400X advisor) told me there are differences that need to be accounted for, but I'm not sure how to tell what I have.

Unless you are going for complete authentics, which you are not because it's a 400, what matter does it make if the cylinder is 85 or 86? Both bolt up the same on the top and bottom sides. The difference is the cam chain tensioner - everything else is compatible. Not sure what the problem here is.........

I used a stock carb and went to I think 148 Main. I have a stock slow jet, and it is almost impossible to start this thing when it is hot now. I have a bunch of larger jets I got to re-jet mine - you can have what I don't use and we will jet it accordingly.

I know I made mention of a spring compressor, as when I did a 400EX head I used one from the auto side of things - I made it work. With 4 hands rather than 2, it won't be hard to put it back together without that tool. But also Eric is correct here, unless you are planning on going with a different cam and or valves. It's a brand new head - I'd say bolt on the 400 kit, tune it and be done.

[ATC-Eric]

The 86 cam chain tensioner will not fit inside an 85 tensioner hole. And you cannot use an 85 tensioner on 86 cases because of the crank case breather.

[keister]

That engine is an 86, that I can say for sure. Why do you need a valve spring compressor? Plaining to do work on the head?

Yes, on the motor I pulled out - which isn't technically part of this project, I guess - more like a phase 2. I already have nearly enough parts accumulated to put together an extra bonus 350X....... but that is a tale for another thread. I tend to get ahead of myself.

[ctk]

That engine is an 86, that I can say for sure. Why do you need a valve spring compressor? Plaining to do work on the head?

eric what is the give away visual that lets you know it is an 86 motor? The motor in post #25

[atc007]

Clutch cable routing. Left of cylinder on 86,right 85,timing chain tensioner size, to name a few.

[TatTooL23]

^^^ u beat me to it! i actually did know that one about the clutch cable routing.... really i did!

[ColtonGG33]

my aunt and uncle and cousins always go to the hatfield and mccoy trail every year, wonder if you rode with them? there last name is stout. i really want to go to that trail some time

[JasonB]

awesome thread~! FINISH IT!

[ATC-Eric]

eric what is the give away visual that lets you know it is an 86 motor? The motor in post #25

Like those guys said. The crank case breather by the tensioner is a dead giveaway, there are 2 styles depending on what year. They are hooked, and curve to accomodate the size of the 85 tensioner. In 86 they designed the tensioner a little different, so the breather goes straight out of the case.

[keister]

awesome thread~! FINISH IT!

Slow and steady. But first things first. I have a little trike gathering to attend next week. N'om sayin?

[keister]

This is happening!! Tonight and tomorrow I am going to put in all new bearings and finish cleaning up the some fasteners and other small misc parts.
Saturday is go time!!!

[Kintore]

Dude I thought we were doing just a motor? This is awesome! I didnt know we were building a full bike this weekend!

[atctim]

Tionesta Trikes Road Show will be arriving in a little more than 24 hours for the Big Bore Assembly! Be sure to have pleanty of assembly lube and Bud Light Limes on hand!

[thestud25]

This is happening!! Tonight and tomorrow I am going to put in all new bearings and finish cleaning up the some fasteners and other small misc parts.
Saturday is go time!!!

My parent's had that couch for years!

Nice build by the way :)

[TatTooL23]

Bid light lime???? Really?

So u need high heels and wigs to go with those right?

[Kintore]

We prefer the daisy dukes

[atctim]

Bud Light Lime is mint - no arguments will be heard!
No wigs or high heels will be worn during the building of this trike.

I find it funny that so many people hate on the Limeys - yet when I take a case somewhere, they are always the first gone, and many of the haters are having one saying "wow, these are pretty good"

[keister]

My parent's had that couch for years!

Nice build by the way :)

They gave me a good deal on it. I found your 10th grade social studies paper in the cushion. Your grades sucked!!

[Dirtcrasher]

Bud Light Lime is mint - no arguments will be heard!
No wigs or high heels will be worn during the building of this trike.

I find it funny that so many people hate on the Limeys - yet when I take a case somewhere, they are always the first gone, and many of the haters are having one saying "wow, these are pretty good"

You bring em, I'll drink em!!!!!!

[atc350xer]

You'll have an extra pair of hands, I'll be over!

[TatTooL23]

Bud Light Lime is mint - no arguments will be heard!
No wigs or high heels will be worn during the building of this trike.

I find it funny that so many people hate on the Limeys - yet when I take a case somewhere, they are always the first gone, and many of the haters are having one saying "wow, these are pretty good"

Ok I admit they r good. But not my top choice while working in a garage. Lol or posting on here.

[keister]

atc350xer documented the build with pictures. Hopefully he will post them up in here.
Six hours on a Saturday got us this far. Pictured are two mechanics that did the motor.
ATCTim named this trike "Cyrus." It is sheer 400Xcellence!

Mr. Gary Crum - Think I can get stickers by TrikeFest?

[ATC-Eric]

Awesome! I'll remind him about stickers too, just incae he doesn't read this anytime soon.

[atc350xer]

16932416933516933616933716933816933916934016934116 93421693341693331693251693261693271693281693291693 30169331169332169343

[atc350xer]

more pics...

[atc350xer]

last few...

[CRAZY70MAN]

I bet there were a few beers flowin' over there in that garage!!! Nice lookin stuff fellas....... lookin forward to the finish....

[kiser]

Looking great! Can I ride it???

[keister]

last few...

Thanks for documenting and posting these up. Your brother has all the teardown pictures on his phone, so this thread may be a little backwards when all is said and done.

[keister]

Looking great! Can I ride it???

Heck ya, you can ride it!!
.... and don't forget your climbing gear.

[atc350xer]

Thanks for documenting and posting these up. Your brother has all the teardown pictures on his phone, so this thread may be a little backwards when all is said and done.No problem, sorry about the double pic posting, I didn't know you could only add 20 at a time and I got confused :confused:

[CRAZY70MAN]

Heck ya, you can ride it!!
.... and don't forget your climbing gear.

Oh man...... well I guess I will film this years new Haspin acres 6 ft bats to keep tradition alive....... Xowner??? Check the bumper on that Honda of yours for broken bolts....

[atc350xer]

Oh man...... well I guess I will film this years new Haspin acres 6 ft bats to keep tradition alive....... Xowner??? Check the bumper on that Honda of yours for broken bolts....I'm looking forward to seeing these creatures first hand.

[keister]

Final assembly took place on Sunday and it fired to life for the first time.
Yesterday was tune and test. After working out a minor timing issue, the 400 is running like a scalded baboon.
It has power to spare, so much that a stock 350X now feels pretty tame.
It still has the chug-a-lug power down low, and it revs out in a hurry.
There were a couple backfires coming off throttle, so I may try a #152 main jet.
It now sits at 50/150 - which seems really close to ideal.

Pictured are two New Yorkers and familair trikefest faces, Russell350X and Andrew Bolle.
Both were hugely instrumental in reassembly of this trike.

[keister]

Little brother, ATCTim, and I put on some finishing touches while Bolle does meticulous restoration on the motor mounts.
Cousin Jake the Snake, showed up on one of his two wheeled Hondas, and got his hands dirty during the final tune-up.
I can't thank these guys enough. I can count 7 different people who turned wrenches with me during the build.

At least two guys asked me over the weekend if any more of these kits are available.

[keister]

While most of this was done in my own garage, as you can see in the pictures it did go to Tionesta Trikes for the long weekend.
It is back home now and will be getting shiny new plastics, steel braided brake lines, all new cables, (ASV) breakaway levers, Tapperline fender brace, and other assorted bling very soon.
I better put some fresh Thumper oil in this week too.

I will leave you with one more picture today - and this little known fact:
ATC carb floats aren't yellow, they are WHITE! I would have never imagined??

[Darius1502]

Any vids of that beast running?

[fabiodriven]

Awesome build Keister! We'll see ya next month!

[JasonB]

Hell ya man! nice work guys! Cant wait to see it in action in June ;)

[keister]

Any vids of that beast running?

Not yet. It will be on the drag strip at Trikefest next month. I am sure some friendly triker will get some footage.

[userj8670]

Sweet Build! Post up some more pix. What did you get done at Tionesta trikes? Also seen you ridden limestone - I ride there about every other weekend. Usually end up in Derrick City, PA at a bar called the Model T for lunch.

[keister]

Sweet Build! Post up some more pix. What did you get done at Tionesta trikes? There will be many more pictures to come. Now it's time to make it look pretty. Tionesta Trikes is just my brother's garage. That is where we finished putting it together and fired it up for the first time.


Also seen you ridden limestone - I ride there about every other weekend. Usually end up in Derrick City, PA at a bar called the Model T for lunch.
I have done the Limestone VFD dice run. They do it every year in August. LimestoneVFD.com (www.limestonevfd.com). It is a really good ride and brings out a large number of trikes. That whole Greater Jamestown / Salamanca metropolis area has an astonishly high population of 3 wheeler riders per capita.

[keister]

Sweet Build! Post up some more pix.

Here's 2 more pictures, but I sure do not like them!
Seems as though my kicker smashed my (freshly painted) footpeg into oblivion.

I guess I have seen this type of footpeg damage before on a 350X, but it had never happened to me before.
The kicker is on the right spline. I know because it fits properly into fender recess.
My decomp cable is properly adjusted and working fine.

As Uncle Ben said, "with great horsepower, comes great responsibility."

[Dirtcrasher]

Great build!!

If you don't have it, get the HRC tip for the 450 exhaust and you'll jump up your jetting a bit more :D

[JasonB]

that sucks about the foot peg!

[userj8670]

Never done the dice run as i prefer to have a few machines out versus a ton but maybe i will have to try it. I stopped at the firehall this past sunday for lunch. How far are you from the area?

[keister]

Never done the dice run as i prefer to have a few machines out versus a ton but maybe i will have to try it. I stopped at the firehall this past sunday for lunch. How far are you from the area?

I am at least 3-4 hours, but I have friends in that area. Not sure if Limestone fits the schedule this year. August is a pretty packed month for me.

[userj8670]

If you ever want to drive up f or a day of riding the invite is open. We usually we tack on 50-70 miles in a given day.

[keister]

New levers and cables all around. Steel braided front and rear brake lines.

Had the same problem with the front brake lever install as I had with my 250R. Took considerable time on the grinder to make it fit.
I get very nervous when I have to take brand new (expensive) parts out of the package and straight to the grinding wheel.

[keister]

So the motor has been started and run probably 15-20 times for ~5 minutes each.

Anyone have any advice as to how much time I should have on the motor before I do the first oil change?
Is it too early?

I am using Bel Ray Thumper oil in all of my 350Xes.

[Kintore]

Peeps,

When we rebuilt Dawns 200s, we ran it for one heat cycle. Changed the oil. Ran it a few more heat cycles changed the oil, then we riding down the road some and changed the oil.

I just figure you cant be to cautious. I know thumper is expensive my 450 takes it too, but you never know what is left over inside the motor...

[barnett468]

Hello


I would not run any type of synthetic oil for break in. In short, it can inhibit the piston rings from breaking in properly simply because it’s too “slippery”. I would use a non synthetic wet clutch 4 stroke oil that has around 1400 ppm of ZDDP in it.

I change the oil on a new motor after the first hour or so then again after around 20 hours or less. Your rebuilt engine is a big investment in time and money, changing the oil after these two intervals or sooner is cheap insurance.

I would not use synthetic for the first 40 hours in your case.

[userj8670]

I agree with the above statements. For what its worth here is how i did mine. First start I ran for 5 min and shut down, parked it. Second day I ran it for 10 min and gave a few short blurps on the throttle...being very gentle and not over reving. Third day went for a half hour ride making sure I went nice and easy and went thru all the gears. Oil change. From that point on a drove her around nice and gentle - def not running wide open. I have a speedo on mine and when i hit 10 miles i did another oil change. After the 10 mile mark i figured she was broken in enough and gradually drove her a little harder. Keeping in mind I put on the 10 miles over a couple weeks, not just one day. Good luck!

[FastZ28]

Let Rusty ride it for an hour then change it, and call it good, if it still runs lol.:w00t:

[Dirtcrasher]

I did 4 heat cycles on my 350X crate motor, changing the oil with VR1 each time.

Then I beat the ever living snot out of it; Runs mint :D

I just don't have the stamina to hold on. Maybe I need Extenze........:lol:

[TatTooL23]

also agree, no synthetic oil for break in

[keister]

Thanks for the advice guys. I drained the Thumper and put 10W-40 Quaker State in last night..... along with a new filter.
I will keep that oil in until after TrikeFest, I think.

Also added a front fender last night.

[keister]

While we are on the subject of oil, here's what I did.

March 19 -- Per the advice of Mr. Garry Crum, I filled the motor with as much 10W40 as it would hold. Probably about a gallon - so full it ran out the fill hole if I removed the dipstick. The idea was to get the 28 year-old clutch fibers soaking. I left that oil in for about 8 weeks. Every few nights I gave the motor a few good shakes to try to keep the clutch plates wet.

On rebuild day, I drained all that oil and added the Thumper. Also shelved the NOS OEM filter.
Yesterday, back to conventional oil and another new filter.

I have, in the past, avoided any synthetics in my 350X's. Reason being, it is too slippery and not good for the clutch. I never thought about that affect on the cylinder / rings. I decided on the Thumper because it is a much higher quality lubricant. Now I am second guessing my plan to change over the Bel Ray Thumper for my garage queen.

The clutch pulls, releases, and feels excellent now BTW. I do have a new set of fiber plates on the shelf prepared for the day that they inevitably give out. Just hope they last past TrikeFest drag races.

[keister]

Looking to finish the build this weekend. It has been a fun time, but I am so ready to be done with this project.
Here are the only parts I have left to install (plus white Maier rears, which won't go on until ATCTim fabs me a heat shield).

TO DO:
Seal leak at cam chain tensioner
New front axle bearings
Fit / trim fenders to clear tank -- mount seat
Rear steel braided brake line
New decomp cable (crate motor didn't come with one)
Fix kicker damage and repaint footpeg

One last tidbit:
The rear skid plate will be the last item to install. It was also the first come off. It came loose during my last 350X ride (13 months ago). While trying to bolt it back on during that ride, I noticed the crack in the frame - which is what started this entire process. Looking back, I am REALLY happy that I bashed that skidplate off a giant rock that day.

[JasonB]

man you are well on your way! its looking great, and Gary Crum knows his machinery lol

[atc350xer]

Looking to finish the build this weekend. It has been a fun time, but I am so ready to be done with this project.
Here are the only parts I have left to install (plus white Maier rears, which won't go on until ATCTim fabs me a heat shield).

TO DO:
Seal leak at cam chain tensioner
New front axle bearings
Fit / trim fenders to clear tank -- mount seat
Rear steel braided brake line
New decomp cable (crate motor didn't come with one)
Fix kicker damage and repaint footpeg

One last tidbit:
The rear skid plate will be the last item to install. It was also the first come off. It came loose during my last 350X ride (13 months ago). While trying to bolt it back on during that ride, I noticed the crack in the frame - which is what started this entire process. Looking back, I am REALLY happy that I bashed that skidplate off a giant rock that day.I'll be over tomorrow afternoon to help with the finishing touches!

[Dirtcrasher]

Looking to finish the build this weekend. It has been a fun time, but I am so ready to be done with this project.
Here are the only parts I have left to install (plus white Maier rears, which won't go on until ATCTim fabs me a heat shield).

TO DO:
Seal leak at cam chain tensioner
New front axle bearings
Fit / trim fenders to clear tank -- mount seat
Rear steel braided brake line
New decomp cable (crate motor didn't come with one)
Fix kicker damage and repaint footpeg

One last tidbit:
The rear skid plate will be the last item to install. It was also the first come off. It came loose during my last 350X ride (13 months ago). While trying to bolt it back on during that ride, I noticed the crack in the frame - which is what started this entire process. Looking back, I am REALLY happy that I bashed that skidplate off a giant rock that day.

Worse thing is that the 350X swinger skid plate mounts are to thin and garbage...........

[Russell 350X]

Let Rusty ride it for an hour then change it, and call it good, if it still runs lol.:w00t:

Sounds good to me!!! LOL

[atc350xer]

I rode it today... WOW!

[keister]

Worse thing is that the 350X swinger skid plate mounts are to thin and garbage...........

That may be true, but 400X skid plate mounts are stout and beefy!

[zmpolaristech]

I can't wait to RAGE THE trailprotrailprotrailprotrailpro out of this poor garage queen!!! At TF of course!:naughty:

[keister]

I can't wait to RAGE THE trailprotrailprotrailprotrailpro out of this poor garage queen!!! At TF of course!:naughty:

Garage queen?? This is my primary trail bike. It was built to ride hard. I do have a garage queen (which I still can't believe). Most people have never seen it. It will be at TF too.

[keister]

This is the garage queen.
She deserves a lot of credit for modeling for me as I reassembled the 400.
No way I could have put it back together without one to look at for reference.

But things have changed:
When I kick this trike over, it feels so effortless now.... feels like I am kicking a 200X.
The 350 also feels very sluggish by comparison..... like it's towing an anchor.

[keister]

When I hit the kill switch, it doesn't slowly die like a normal trike motor. It stops right now -- on that very stroke.

The gears aren't quite worked in yet either. Hopefully powershifting through all 6 on pavement solves that issue.

[Kintore]

Let me and rusty on it for 30 hr and them gears will be like butter! Cant wait to ride this thing! So glad I had a hand in building it.

[keister]

Just needs a couple finishing touches at this point. Sticker set should be coming soon. Custom bar pad and seat cover will come in time. I still want to get a nice big shiny headpipe too. Thanks again to all of those who helped me put this together. See you out there on the trails......

[ATC-Eric]

Very nice man!

[atc350xer]

Any other ideas on the hard start issue?

[Dirtcrasher]

Sounds like a small pilot.

[keister]

Sounds like a small pilot.

It has a #50 pilot. That's what most of the other guys are running. You think bumping to 52 or 54 would make it start more easily? I'm ready to try something different cause my leg hurts from kicking.

[jays375]

Does it backfire a lot when you let off the gas?If so you need to go bigger.

[keister]

Does it backfire a lot when you let off the gas?If so you need to go bigger.

Sometimes it does. I've been playing with the main. Time to dial in the slow jet, I guess.

[Dirtcrasher]

I jumped up to a 52, you have a larger combustion chamber.

I would grab a 52,54 and 56 to play with.

[jays375]

Pilot controls 3/4 of the throttle up to wot.

[Dirtcrasher]

Pilot controls 3/4 of the throttle up to wot.

Whatchoo talking about Willis?? Pilots are idle to about 1/4 throttle or I have a serious problem :D

[keister]

Whatchoo talking about Willis?? Pilots are idle to about 1/4 throttle or I have a serious problem :D

That's right. I know I at least have a 52 and 55 to play with.

[keister]

400X has been delivered to HMF Engineering in Cleveland. Should have a fancy new pipe by the weekend.

[Russell 350X]

Nice!!! What is he charging for it?

[keister]

Not sure yet. It will be under 500 bones for the full system. Rescue Ray is gonna get a nice surprise when I hand him a custom Flying Bryan can for his 350X. Shhhhhh!

[keister]

Just back from HMF Engineering in Cleveland, OH to pick up my trike - outfitted with a fancy new pipe. What a thing of beauty! Fired up second kick with the 55 pilot jet. Seems like it starts a whole lot easier now that it has some big laminar flow. Sounds mean too! Definintely ready for a trail ride. Snakefest anyone??

[jays375]

Looks good!What did they charge for it?Can they make another one now with out the machine there?

[keister]

500 bones. Not sure if they can or not - they wanted my trike there to fit it up. You could call and ask. Tell you what, I'll trade you their phone number in exchange for a Durablue axle. Haha. My bent stock axle is looking a little out of place, suddenly.

[jays375]

They did a nice job on that exhaust.Definately worth the money.The rest of the trike turned out very good also.Hope we meet up again and I get see it.

[sp8twn]

Are you bringing it to Gopher Dunes at the end of the month so we can see it in action? Im sure Celine and Bubbles want to see it too!!:D

[keister]

Are you bringing it to Gopher Dunes at the end of the month so we can see it in action? Im sure Celine and Bubbles want to see it too!!:D

I sure would like to, but I'm a little sketchy about the border crossing with no paperwork. I do have a title for my other 350X. Wonder if they would notice?? Do they ever look at VIN #'s at the border? We didn't have a problem with the TT450 last year. The border guard said, "Who's is........ what's that?.... a dirtbike?"

[userj8670]

How about a video of her running so we can hear that new exhaust?

[keister]

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=588342137904618

Video from Saturday. Hope this works:

[keister]

Never loaded / linked a video before, hopefully you can see it.

Here's where we are now:

52 pilot / 152 main
No airbox lid
Starts nicely, idles perfectly
Runs great if I short shift

If I hold gears a little long, it does break up at the very top
When I let off from WOT, it backfires like crazy
Plug is white - no trace of creamy butterscotch color at all.

I tried one size larger on the main (#155) and it ran worse.
I hate to touch the pilot when it starts and idles so nicely.

Looking for ideas on how to work out the kinks when I get near redline?

[Louis Mielke]

How does it run at WOT? Does it actually run well wide open and then when you let off WOT it coughs? To me it sounds like your needle is way lean and your main is way fat. If you literally hold the throttle at half throttle in neutral how does it run?

Lower the clip on the needle a position to raise the needle to fatten it up at half throttle position. If your needle is too far out, even with no main jet in at all it would still look lean on the plug. Your main sounds way too fat, play with the needle till you get some color change. Also what plug are you running? Stock? You may want to go a heat range cooler.

How does it behave it you put the airbox lid back on?

[Louis Mielke]

The main jet really is only metering fuel when the needle is all the way up as in the throttle has raised the needle to the end of its travel. It sounds like at wide open throttle, the needle is out of the way and the way too big of a main is drowning the engine. When the needle is in the jet tube the taper of the needle is limiting the fuel regardless of how big the main is, you could go to a 200 main and the needle will only let so much fuel in until it moves out of the way.

I'd focus on making it run off idle and at mid throttle so it will put some color on the plug then worry about your main.

Most people only ever really utilize from 1/4-3/4 throttle for 80% of thier riding. (in our typical trail riding locations, west coast is going to be different obviously)

[Dirtcrasher]

If the airscrew doesn't help the decel pop, you are lean on the pilot.

You are shifting as soon as you hear it break up. It doesn't seem to be blubbering, but breaking up.

Easy test, throw the A/B lid on and test the main. Better or worse?? Your now restricting the air which tells you where you sit with the same fuel delivered.

That will help you figure out where the main jet is at because now you have less air in the mix but the same jetting.....

[fallguy666]

On mine(not sure of the bore size,only know its a 12:1 with cam) I'm running a 180ish main(drilled 150) and a 52 pilot,needle second groove from the bottom.no air box lid and a DG pipe.mine is god awful now.it will pull fifth and sixth gear wheelies like there's no tomorrow. the little shot of nos I have on it is a real kick in the britches too!!!

[keister]

How does it run at WOT? Does it actually run well wide open and then when you let off WOT it coughs? To me it sounds like your needle is way lean and your main is way fat. If you literally hold the throttle at half throttle in neutral how does it run?

Lower the clip on the needle a position to raise the needle to fatten it up at half throttle position. If your needle is too far out, even with no main jet in at all it would still look lean on the plug. Your main sounds way too fat, play with the needle till you get some color change. Also what plug are you running? Stock? You may want to go a heat range cooler.

How does it behave it you put the airbox lid back on?

The main jet really is only metering fuel when the needle is all the way up as in the throttle has raised the needle to the end of its travel. It sounds like at wide open throttle, the needle is out of the way and the way too big of a main is drowning the engine. When the needle is in the jet tube the taper of the needle is limiting the fuel regardless of how big the main is, you could go to a 200 main and the needle will only let so much fuel in until it moves out of the way.

I'd focus on making it run off idle and at mid throttle so it will put some color on the plug then worry about your main.

Most people only ever really utilize from 1/4-3/4 throttle for 80% of thier riding. (in our typical trail riding locations, west coast is going to be different obviously)


This helps a lot. I was actually hoping / thinking it was a needle clip position issue, but wanted to get some confirmation before I started messing with it.
It basically runs perfectly everywhere except WOT, at which point it breaks up. I will try the half throttle in neutral test.
Never considered a plug change. It is, of course, DR8ES-L. What options do I have for a cooler plug?


I'd focus on making it run off idle and at mid throttle so it will put some color on the plug then worry about your main.

It already runs perfectly off idle and at mid throttle. The issue is WOT and crazy backfiring going from WOT to throttle closed position. Keep in mind this engine still has under an hour on it.

[keister]

If the airscrew doesn't help the decel pop, you are lean on the pilot.

You are shifting as soon as you hear it break up. It doesn't seem to be blubbering, but breaking up.

Easy test, throw the A/B lid on and test the main. Better or worse?? Your now restricting the air which tells you where you sit with the same fuel delivered.

That will help you figure out where the main jet is at because now you have less air in the mix but the same jetting.....

I haven't touched the air screw at all. Didn't realize that might help my decel issue.
I did throw on the airbox lid. It ran slightly worse, barely noticeable actually. I also went up one pilot jet size (#55) with airbox lid on and off. It ran noticeably worse, so I went back to the 52.

I just want to get it dialed in nice and tight before my Hatfield McCoy ride in May. Of course, the temp and elevation will be different there.
Thanks a bunch for the help, guys. I will try these things out.

[Louis Mielke]

The number of the plug depicts heat range, smaller number is hotter, larger is cooler, looks for a DR9ES-L but before you worry about that just focus on what you have.


You say the plug is white but putting the airbox lid on makes it worse? That's kinda of opposite of what we'd expect.

Not that you should hold the throttle wide open for any extended period of time but when I say WOT I mean just that, not specifically 6th gear tapped out, I mean the throttle completely open in any gear.

If you open the throttle wide open (in neutral sitting still), just an easy roll on of the throttle, not a stab, how does the engine sound/feel at its highest RPM? I don't mean hold it there for a long period but roll on the throttle till you reach highest rpm and then back out of it once you reach the top for a second.

Part of the problem here in trying to do this through forum posts is that how one person describes engine sounds and the way someone else might can be very different, and a lot of times you may never get an engine to behave a certain way so you don't know that the specific behavior is possible.

Buy a few plugs. Put a brand new one in and start it and let it idle, let it idle for 15 mins if you have to, if it puts color on the plug just idling (any color other than white/grey) then I would think the pilot should be close.

Dirtcrasher, lean on the needle can cause pop on decel too, not only too small a pilot, if it was poping between half throttle and idle I'd agree with you but as he described it it sounds like its poping on decel from WOT.

Keister is hat correct or are we both misunderstanding?

[keister]

If I am at WOT and I leave off the throttle completely, it pops and backfires. Pops happen between WOT and throttle closed position.

As for the airbox lid, that was exactly the opposite of what I was expecting too. But the difference was very minor, almost negligible. In real world riding, I probably would not even notice. It did seem to start easier with the lid off, but that could just be my perception.

All the rest of the stuff I will try tonight and get back to you. thanks again for helping me out.

[Dirtcrasher]

As Lou said, the A/B lid test seems completely opposite to your plug readings (as you said it was whiteish ) so, if you put the lid on and restricted the air intake, lean jetting would have better results. But you said it was worse?? Completely baffling.

I hear you short shifting it (in the video) and that's no fun for all the work to now have a fresh built motor. The guys I ride with have seen me stab my throttle fast and held it at WOT with no break up. They all shook their heads as if I were crazy. But I believe I am in some sort. In my case it is a 10.25:1 with no lid, ST exhaust (what exhaust do you have?) 52 pilot and I think a 152 main. And it runs thru all speeds great. I don't claim in the least to be a jetting expert, it is a PITA sometimes. It popped a little bit on decel and 1/4 turn on the airscrew eliminated that.

That white color plug screams lean but the A/B lid test didn't show you what it should have. Is it possible you have an air leak somewhere?

This can be well argued but the main jet plays a huge roll in all final jetting throughout the range.

The airscrew I believe should be somewhere about 1.5 turns out from bottoming it. Do so lightly and make sure the oring has silicone grease on it and is in the correct order.

Screw, spring, washer then o-ring. That way when you turn the air or fuel screw, there is no damage to the o-ring seal.

Your A/B lid test with a lean indication on the plug is completely opposite of what I would have anticipated; Louis said that as well.

I'm sure it bugs the heck out of you with a fresh 400 motor. It's not even able to race or be ridden hard.

Just wait until I put the FCR 39mm on mine and see how much difficulty I have jetting it!! A call to Mr. Hall may be necessary at that point :lol:

EDIT!! - ALWAYS do 1 jetting change at a time or you will be lost beyond words. As Louis suggested, get the 1st portion correct and work from there. I am certain that different needles can resolve issues. I honestly have never experimented with different needle tapers.....

[jays375]

Has the oring on the intake been changed?May look good but may leak also.What gives with these 350X's and jetting problems lately.Is the pilot port definately open?

[Louis Mielke]

If I am at WOT and I leave off the throttle completely, it pops and backfires. Pops happen between WOT and throttle closed position.


Pops happening between WOT and throttle closed... That's kinda a broad range man. lol. If you slowly easy the throttle off from WOT instead of just letting it snap closed how does it behave?

[CRAZY70MAN]

Taking a longshot and thinking you have an exhaust leak somewhere?? I know that has nothing to do with your plug color and your jetting may be off still. I have had my 350x do the same several times when it works a header nut loose.......or when you wheelie it at Elmira indoor and run ice studs through the header cause you have it too low . Just a thought since the build is new.....check the exhaust... Nice freakin build Peepers!! Real nice bro....

[keister]

If you open the throttle wide open (in neutral sitting still), just an easy roll on of the throttle, not a stab, how does the engine sound/feel at its highest RPM? I don't mean hold it there for a long period but roll on the throttle till you reach highest rpm and then back out of it once you reach the top for a second.


Did some more testing last night. It was 20-30 degrees colder than last weekend. I warmed it up and rode it around, and it ran A LOT better. There was still some minor breaking up at the top, but not nearly as bad.

I put it in neutral and revved it up the whole way and held it there for a few seconds. Sounded fine. Nothing odd at all. Did not seem to break up at all.

[keister]

Pops happening between WOT and throttle closed... That's kinda a broad range man. lol.

Ya, I guess so. Thing is, I never really listened for exactly WHEN it was happening.
Upon further review, the backfiring happens when the RPMs are almost all the way back down. Doesn't really happen as soon as I let off the gas. It happens when it is almost back down to idle. It still did this last night.

[keister]

Taking a longshot and thinking you have an exhaust leak somewhere??

I should hope not. I paid big money for HMF Engineering to build and install a custom exhaust system. But no, it's tight! Check out the pics on Page 8 - post #113.


Has the oring on the intake been changed?May look good but may leak also.What gives with these 350X's and jetting problems lately.Is the pilot port definately open?

Oring on the intake?? This is a crate motor and a crate carb. Both brand new. Maybe I misunderstand your question.

[jays375]

No.Didn't see the part about it being a crate motor.

[Louis Mielke]

In that case if the oping is happening in the lower rev range I'm still leaning towards the needling being lean, trying moving the clip down to the next lower clip, that will richer it up. I would aso agree with DC, you may need a larger pilot. I would try the needle first.



Ya, I guess so. Thing is, I never really listened for exactly WHEN it was happening.
Upon further review, the backfiring happens when the RPMs are almost all the way back down. Doesn't really happen as soon as I let off the gas. It happens when it is almost back down to idle. It still did this last night.

[keister]

It has been a while, but I have had it out for a few test rides this spring. These were harsh condition, abusive trail rides.
It is now dialed in. Everything is spot on, and it doesn't miss a beat. Thanks to all for the advice.

Turns out that one big issue was when I sat on the seat it shorted out my CDI. I relocated that to the inside of the airbox and it has run prefectly ever since.

I am going to put this trike through the paces this summer. SnakeFest next weekend, Hatfield McCoy next month, hopefully Rose City in summer and surely a few rides in between. I will try to keep this thread updated with some ride reports.

The best news is that I have replaced so many parts since the original teardown, that I now essentially have my original 350X sitting on my shelf. I will be putting that back together soon. You can never have too many!!

Speaking of which, I just moved recently...... here's a teaser shot from my the basement at my new house.
191302

[keister]

Updated pictures now with Cheetah tires all around.
First time I have ridden it in a long time (got hardtail fever).
Actually Matt's350X was the last to take it for a spin at Rose City.
Maybe he can give a quick ride report if he wants.

I did take it around the yard a few times after I put the new rears on.
I think I am going to lower the front end an inch or 2 again.
That will level it a little better with the 20's on the rear.
So far I am very happy with the Cheetahs.

246552


246553

[ATC-Eric]

Man I gotta get me some of those tires. Looks really good man.

[Russell 350X]

Looking good Peepers!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[CRAZY70MAN]

Ahh ya peepers...smellin that x at summit indoor?

[atctim]

Looks great with those tires on there. Cheetah upped the bar for trikes in the OEM looking tire department.

[oldskool83]

$500 for a full system is not bad. I'd see if you could get them to start selling. Some systems are in upwards of $700.