84 Tecate transmission oil leak

[up-tyte]

So I have a 84 tecate that when it sets it is leaking oil out the bottom. My first question is do I have to split the case to fix this? The second question is that the engine really smokes, is there a way that the trans oil can get into the cylinder and if I ride it this way what damage can it cause. The trike runs real strong and keeps up with the 85 my son has, it just really smokes.

[gage]

Its all the same oil, it should smoke, a little. Depends where the leak is. Most of myn have leaked from the drain plug.

[kawasaki666]

Uh . . . 2 Stroke oil is waaay differen't than the oil that goes in the crank case!!! If it's not leaking from the drain plug, then yes, you have to split the cases to fix the leak. Excessive smoke could be from the Crank Seals leaking, into the combustion chamber. Not a terrible thing, but should be fixed, soon.

[gage]

Uh . . . 2 Stroke oil is waaay differen't than the oil that goes in the crank case!!! Well I wasnt talking about ALL the oil, I just meant the bottom end. But ya.

[just ben]

Well I wasnt talking about ALL the oil, I just meant the bottom end. But ya.and you would still be wrong,do I need to explain? if it is pulling in oil from the transmission it would be the right side crank seal,if it is leaking oil from anywhere beside the oil plug then the case needs to be spit(in both cases)my best guess would be that the cases were not sealed properly the last time they were apart which would explain both of your problems. not to worry they are the simlest of simple engines to work on but if it is a center sealing issue I would still spend the few bucks and do all of the seals while it is apart

[up-tyte]

Didn't even think about the drain plug, I will check that this weekend but think it is more than that. I don't know anything about 2 strokes, all our other trikes are 4's. I was reading some other posts about splitting the cases and they talked about heating and cooling the bearings and cases, is that correct? They also mentioned pressing and pulling the case halves together. The Honda 4 strokes just slide together. Who makes a good gasket set that includes the seals? Anything else I should check or replace while I'm in there, like I said it runs really well other than the smoke.

[atc007]

I would say,,8 tomes out of 10.. Your drain bolt,,or more than likely,,your countershaft oil seal or clutch cover gasket. DO NOT go splitting your engine just yet!! Yes,,it MAY need it, But troubleshoot it!! SImply,,degrease,and steam clean it. If you don't have access to a good steam jenny or pressure washer. Go to the carwash. Get ya some purple degreaser from Wal mart or Auto zone{ Castrol knock off,any brand} I've found it works better than the Castrol, anyhow, Pressure the entire bike,but specifically the engine,lay it on it's side,wash the bottom,EVERY nook and cranny. Now,degrease the entire engine,let it soak 5 minutes or less. Steam it again. Let her dry. Start and let idle,,now SEE where the leak is! That easy. NO GUESSING. You WILL SEE it. My bet is it's simpler. However,if the smoke is tranny oil,,yes,you are ingesting tranny fluid on the clutch side. Are you and your son running the same premix oil I presume? Same jetting?. Check your plug to see what he says. . Good luck!

[up-tyte]

I looks like my leaks are coming from the Right Engine Cover gasket and the seal around the External Shift Shaft. The biggest leak is from around the Shift Shaft, the end of the shaft even looks bent, would that have to be cut off before I pull it out? As for the trans oil getting into the engine, is there anyway to confirm that is what is happening before I tear it apart? When I split the case will it just come apart easy or are the bearings pressed on the crank or in the case half?

[fabiodriven]

That would be your left case half, not your right. Sometimes you do have to cut them to get the case apart. I've seen some pretty tweaked shafts slide through though. It depends on how bent it is. And in case you haven't yet figured it out, the bent shaft is probably the main cause of your leak.

You said you're not familiar with two strokes so let's start with the beginning. Most of the suggestions above are fairly sound (except the guy who has no clue how the inside of a two stroke engine works) but they're jumping ahead.

I've never personally seen an oil-side crank seal let go. The dry side goes all the time, and that's because it's dry. The oil side seals seem to last a lot longer and like I said, I've never seen one fail to the point the engine was sucking tranny oil. I'm in no way saying that can't happen, I'm sure it has. I've never seen it though.

You do realize that two strokes are supposed to smoke, especially on a cold start?

What kind of two stroke oil are you using? If you're using the Walmart brand or some other crap it's probably going to smoke more than with a quality oil. Not only that, but your engine will not last long with that junk.

What ratio are you mixing your gas at? The manufacturer's recommendation uses a lot more oil than you do with a quality modern oil, so you could easily be mixing it too thick.

You have to start with the basics and go from there. Take your time and think through everything. You could easily overlook a simple issue chasing major overhauls. Any monkey can change parts. A real mechanic is the one who can diagnose.

[just ben]

fabio, I think he was saying that the right side case was leaking in addition to the shift shaft. if he is leaking oil on the left side cover he definetly has issues! to answer the question about the pressed bearings ect. the right side is pressed onto the crank and the left is pressed into the case. If you do end up splitting the cases pull the shift side off to keep the tranny intact. they really are simple engines, I have swapped a crank in less than 2 hrs with beer breaks or maybe work breaks lol

[fabiodriven]

Gotcha. I missed that "and".

[up-tyte]

I know the shaft is leaking for sure, not as positive about the right cover but there is oil along that seem underneath so those two items are an easy fix. I'm assuming the shaft will just slide out the right side when the cover is off, similar to the Honda 200x. I know they are supposed to smoke some and we are using a good grade oil mixing it 20 to 1 as stated in the service manual. We are running the same mix in the 85, if I would rate the smoke from the 85 at a 1 then the 84 is closer to a 4 or 5. The only thing I can think would be the trans oil cause that is what we have to keep filling and I don't think it is all leaking out. Maybe I should fix the two leaks first and then see what it does.

[fabiodriven]

There's your problem. 20:1 is far too much oil. please re-read what I wrote about the mix ratio. I'd mix it more at 50:1 or so, depending on the oil you're using.

Back when these machines were made, they didn't have the good oils we have today. That's why they had people mixing the oil so thick. With the oil we have now you don't need nearly as much because it's so much better than what was available in the early 80's.

If you're mixing at 20:1, I can almost guarantee that's the source of your excessive smoke.

Edit- But that doesn't explain why one Tecate would smoke more than the other, assuming you're using the same gas in both machines.

[fabiodriven]

When I do bottom ends Glamy, I use nothing but OEM bearings and seals. Ordering a-la-cart from Kawi is the best way to do it.

Also, Bikebandit has some really good exploded views that I just printed out and use as a manual. TecateDan has done this a lot more recently than I have so we can see what he uses.

[El Camexican]

Edit- But that doesn't explain why one Tecate would smoke more than the other, assuming you're using the same gas in both machines.

I'd think richer jetting could make one smoke a lot more than another all other things being equal.

[fabiodriven]

True mexicanadian. Brain fart...

[up-tyte]

So I finally have had time to tear into this thing some and here is what I have found so far. The first picture is of the shift shaft end before I cut it off and the second pic is after. Even after cutting I had to drive the shaft out, how could you bend it like that? Now here is my currant question, the third pic is of the shaft in a spare engine we have with the forth ( I am holding the shaft) is the bent one I removed, will these interchange? On my spare, the spring is on the bottom with the other being on top. My spare engine ID no is CE009156 and the one in the trike is CE020990, what year are these? The trike ID is an 84. 153228153229153230153231 So I have been doing some digram comparisions and the engine in the trike may be a 86? The best I can makr the frame ID is JXAXTMAI9EB504136, not sure about the I or 1, I was just thinking 84 because of the red plastics.

[up-tyte]

So I'm pretty sure the frame is a 84 but still can't identify the engine year, any help?

[El Camexican]

Even after cutting I had to drive the shaft out, how could you bend it like that? The answer is "force in excess applied a direction not considered by the designing engineers" ;) if you keep worrying about things like that you'll never finish the rebuild. Have you removed the top end yet? I'm curious to hear what it looks like given your issues up to now. I’m sure some Kawi guy on here will know what year your engine is, but a few more photos from all angles may be more helpful than the ser. #s.

[up-tyte]

I understand how things bend, I just find it odd that it was bent downward and to that extreme. I have not removed the top end yet and would rather not if I don't have to, the thing runs great except for what I would consider excess smoke. I will get the leaks fixed first and then will try a different fuel mix and see what happens. I just need to figure out what engine I have so I can get a replacement shaft.

[fabiodriven]

I highly doubt you have an 86 engine. The 86's have a power valve so if you don't have that then it's not an 86.

You need to find out if it's an 84 or 85 motor because I'm fairly certain the shift shafts do not interchange between the two years.

[yaegerb]

pictures of the entire motor would help us help you identify it.

[up-tyte]

Here are some photos of the trike and engine, hope this helps. I was on the site for Cheap Cycle and looking at their exploded views and the shaft for the 84 and 85 look similar but have different part numbers, it looks like the little spring is on the bottom of both. When I look at the diagram for the 86 the spring is on the top. Also where the two parts slide past each other the 86 is a pin that is stationary while the 84, 85 it is a bent piece of metal that slides, don't know if that is a very clear description? Hopefully the engine pics will help? I also don't know much about 2 strokes so what is the power valve?153295153296153297153298153299

[yaegerb]

Looks like an 84 to me.

[fabiodriven]

The bike itself is an 84, but I'd make sure you have an 84 engine in there before you locate the part. As far as I know, there are no visual cues on the outside of the engine to differentiate between the 84 and 85 motor.

[up-tyte]

The motor looks just like our 85 and the spare motor we have, which is where I was going to get the shaft out of, but the shaft I am replacing looks like one out of a 86. Are these interchangeable? The spring is on the other side compared to the 84/85. There has to be someone here that would know. I have found one from each year on ebay, the 84/85 look similar but with different part numbers and the one for a 86 looks like the one I need to replace.

[fabiodriven]

I can't see any reason an 84 Tecate motor would have an 86 shift shaft in it. That just doesn't make any sense.

[up-tyte]

Doesn't make any sense to me either, the first pics I posted the shaft in my hand is what I took out and the shaft in the motor is I think an 84 or 85 engine. the spring on the spring on the top say 86 while the spring on the bottom would say 84/85. Aren't there any tecate experts out there? Just want to make sure I get the correct replacement.

[yaegerb]

I have been looking high and low on the net for the engine serial number you provided and I can't find anything in regards to "CE020990". I will keep looking. Maybe someone else on this forum has a serial number list for the Tecate's.

[yaegerb]

What is the VIN number on the bike?

[fabiodriven]

I'll shoot TecateDan a PM. I gave him a NOS OEM 84 (I believe) shift shaft still brand new in the packaging from Kawi. Maybe he can shed some light on this.

[up-tyte]

What is the VIN number on the bike? The vin number is listed with the first pictures I posted along with the eng numbers. The manual says the frame is 84.

[TecateDan]

Just checked the manual the 84 and 85 are different part numbers according to Kawasaki. I do have a brand new 84 shaft that I can take measurement of but not sure I have any interest in selling it. I can dig through my stuff and try and find an 85 to see what the diff is but that won't happen ubntil tomorrow or wednesday

[TecateDan]

When I do bottom ends Glamy, I use nothing but OEM bearings and seals. Ordering a-la-cart from Kawi is the best way to do it.

Also, Bikebandit has some really good exploded views that I just printed out and use as a manual. TecateDan has done this a lot more recently than I have so we can see what he uses.

The kawasaki site has really good exploded views. SAme as bike bandit but less fuzzy. Completely agree with jhn that using OEM part are pricey but the only way to go IMHO

[TecateDan]

So I finally have had time to tear into this thing some and here is what I have found so far. The first picture is of the shift shaft end before I cut it off and the second pic is after. Even after cutting I had to drive the shaft out, how could you bend it like that? Now here is my currant question, the third pic is of the shaft in a spare engine we have with the forth ( I am holding the shaft) is the bent one I removed, will these interchange? On my spare, the spring is on the bottom with the other being on top. My spare engine ID no is CE009156 and the one in the trike is CE020990, what year are these? The trike ID is an 84. 153228153229153230153231 So I have been doing some digram comparisions and the engine in the trike may be a 86? The best I can makr the frame ID is JXAXTMAI9EB504136, not sure about the I or 1, I was just thinking 84 because of the red plastics.

Just compared the two and that IS NOT AN 84. The spring hole for the 84 is on the opposite side of the shaft. THat has to be an 85. Here is the pic of the 84


http://i1207.photobucket.com/albums/bb468/danielvpope/Tecate%20500/IMAG0622.jpg

[up-tyte]

Just compared the two and that IS NOT AN 84. The spring hole for the 84 is on the opposite side of the shaft. THat has to be an 85. Here is the pic of the 84


http://i1207.photobucket.com/albums/bb468/danielvpope/Tecate%20500/IMAG0622.jpg The pics I have found show the 85 to look the same as the 84, and yes different part numbers I think the 84 is still available but not the 85. The other differance is the T tab that keeps the two parts together, 84 and 85 look like your picture, the one I have has a stud welded in its place.

[up-tyte]

So I went to the Kawi dealer today and was doing some research. Found out the my spare motor was the original motor to this frame, the bent shaft I removed is for a 1986. So I come home and get the vin off a frame in the barn to see if it goes with the motor currently in the trike, call Kawasaki direct and found out it is not, 100 numbers off. They were able to run my engine number (currently in trike) and they tell me it is a 85. In visiting with them about interchangeability, they informed me that with this engine all parts are interchangeable from 1984 to 1987. Last Sunday night I bought a used shaft for an 85 and a 86 on Ebay and we will see how they fit.

[El Camexican]

So I went to the Kawi dealer today and was doing some research. In visiting with them about interchangeability, they informed me that with this engine all parts are interchangeable from 1984 to 1987.:wondering

[fabiodriven]

In visiting with them about interchangeability, they informed me that with this engine all parts are interchangeable from 1984 to 1987..

That is not true at all. There are some similarities and I'm sure some parts swap. All Parts? Negatory.

[up-tyte]

That is not true at all. There are some similarities and I'm sure some parts swap. All Parts? Negatory.I would tend to agree with you, but that is what they told me. I will be checking the shift shaft, it must work I have a 85 with a 86 part in it, It also seems most of the seals interchange.

[TecateDan]

dealers are people and all info is 30 years old and transferred onto computers because there were no computer at dealers when this stuff was new so take it all with a grain of salt

[just ben]

I would tend to agree with you, but that is what they told me. I will be checking the shift shaft, it must work I have a 85 with a 86 part in it, It also seems most of the seals interchange.I have a whole stack of 84-86 kxt and kx engines and I can tell you that all the parts dont interchange. The 84-85 shift shaft will interchange just fine if you use the corresponding parts.

[up-tyte]

I got my parts in the mail Thursday and will start doing the comparison process today. My next step will then to see where the extra smoke is coming from. Several of you have mentioned the right crank seal, is there a way to check this before splitting the case? Could you run the engine for a couple minutes without transmission oil to see if that makes a difference, I know not recommended but if you were just idling? When looking at my spare engine I don't see how the oil gets from the crank end into the cylinder? The cylinder is off the spare and I see two holes on top that leak oil when the engine is turned on it's side, is this how the cylinder gets oiled? I'm sure I will understand the inner-workings better if I have to tear the engine apart.

[El Camexican]

Could you run the engine for a couple minutes without transmission oil to see if that makes a difference, I know not recommended but if you were just idling? Could you? Sure, should you, no! NO! NEVER! It would prove nothing and if you did have a leak (which I doubt) you'd be pulling in air instead of oil and that will really do your engine some harm. Was there oil residue behind the right side cover when you took it off, or was it dry in there? If it was clean, or dusty, but not oily I'd leave it be.


The cylinder is off the spare and I see two holes on top that leak oil when the engine is turned on it's side, is this how the cylinder gets oiled? A picture would help here. You may have some crankcase vent holes, and if so they would leak trans fluid if tipped over. However, if you are refering to the two little holes in the crankcase above the main bearings, then yes they lube the crank and the oil in them is should be 2 stroke oil. This also means that you have a fair bit of oil in your crankcase (that is how your cylinder gets oiled) and that is what would cause your engine to smoke, but this is your spare and not your smoker, so like I said, a pic of the holes would help a lot. I suggest you fix the shift shaft problem, bolt it together, run 40 or 50:1 mix as has been suggested and run it hard for a good 20 minutes. If it runs strong but still smokes you are likley running too rich and need to jet down (smaller pilot jet, raise the clip to lower the needle and maybe a size down on the main). If that is the problem as I suspect it is, your trike will run like a raped ape after the jetting is corrected and will smoke very little. WARNING! If your engine is water cooled and the smoke is white and smells sweet, or water is dripping from the pipe you have a head gasket leak and that will need to be fixed ASAP.

[up-tyte]

Yes, the holes I am talking about are above the main bearings. I have not taken the top end off my smoker yet and don't want to if I don't have to. Is there a way to drain the crankcase of this excess 2 stroke oil? When I took the right side cover off there was oil inside, why would it be dry?, that is where the clutch is. Is the right side crank seal the same one you can look at when you remove the gears for the water pump and clutch? If so it looked good from this side. I put the engine back together and then removed the carb to check the jets, the main looks like a 250, the pilot jet wont come out so I don't know what it is. I will get it back together tonight or tomorrow and see how it runs, I will first drain the tank and use a mix of 40:1. I also took several pictures of the shift shafts for the 84, 85, and 86 engine and will post them for the record, I did put the 86 shaft back in this motor as that is what matched the star gear (?), this motor is a 85.

[El Camexican]

I should have said left side, or better yet the stator cover, sorry.

You don't want to drain that oil where the crank is, you need some, the excess will find its way out after a few minutes of hard riding. If you ever rebuild a 2 stroke engine top to bottom you need to put some raw 2 stroke oil in the crankcase before startup. I can't help you on the jetting, sorry.

[86T3]

He could do a leak down test to find out if his crank seal is leaking, right? By leak down, i mean pressurize the cylinder, block off the exhaust, and see if it loses pressure.

[just ben]

He could do a leak down test to find out if his crank seal is leaking, right? By leak down, i mean pressurize the cylinder, block off the exhaust, and see if it loses pressure.yes that would be the best way to figure out if anything is going on in the bottom end however I'm not sure this guy even knows what a spark plug is so making a leakdown tester may a bit out of his league. I don't mean any offense but This is the internet and suggestions can be given but it is impossible to tell you exactly what is wrong with it.

[up-tyte]

I do take some offense with that comment, I don't know anymore about you than you do me. You may be surprised at the projects I work on, the tools I have made and the things I have done that I was told couldn't. Like I mentioned earlier this is the first 2 stroke I have messed with, so I'm just trying to understand how everything works. All my other vehicles are 4 stroke. Would a leak down test pinpoint a leak or just let you know you have one? You would also have to seal the intake, correct? All suggestions are appreciated and I know its the internet so everything is taken with a grain of salt, it is always best to research as much as possible so you don't mess things up worst than before you started.

[jeswinehart]

. I have never built a leak down tester but got a hunch it will only tell you if something is sucking/leaking air (crank seals,jug and so on).
http://www.3wheelerworld.com/showthread.php/96856-Make-a-leak-down-tester-for-about-20