UPDATED - loose pin in shift drum. 85 250sx doesn't waaaana shift

[tri again]

All under left cover.
the gearsift arm can crack, but it didn't
the pin it 'rides' on can bend or break but it wasn't.

there's another studded bolt pin about an inch to the left that holds two
spring loaded chicklets that ride in a star wheel.
page 134-5 in the manual.
That pin came loose, but not by much and not easy to see and as of now
almost impossible to reassemble until I figure out the trick.

I just happened to notice that the bolt would rotate ever so slightly when I moved the gearshift lever with the case off.
I'll put it back together tomorrow and report back.
Seems like the fact that it backed out just enough to drag on the shift drum and not let it rotate.



I hope the pix come out but
here's the story.

Precious daughters trike. after years of FLAWless, dependable operation......

All of a sudden, 15 clicks on the shifter to get nowhere.
Sometimes, feels like neutral, between gears? 10 upshifts to get nowhere,
Neutral between whatever gear you think yer in.....NO neutral light.

Ok, so pulled the left side cover.
No bent pin #21, no cracked 'arm, gearshift''

Pulled the left side cover expecting to find bent / broken pin #21
24652-HAO-000
or
"arm, gearshift" 24621-HAO-020 cracked or bent as per search key indications.
and common availability of common failure parts, of which I got 2 sets,
neither common failure parts is anything but perfect looking.


so tomorrow we pull the right side cover and see what's not right.

btw, no synchro soup, oil clear, simply won't shift.

Let's see if pix come across..

What are we missing?

My worst fear?
"The autopsy turned up negative."

Thanks

[tri again]

text must be at least 10 characters long

[RiJiD-WILL]

my big red is doing the same thing I have fixed it twice but every time I downshift from third it falls into a false Neutral and is prettymuch stcuk there until I take off the side case...

was that bearing behind the gear shift mechanism loose? mine had one of the bearing stays turn down causing the bearing to come loose..
so i fixed that tightened it put new oil in and it worked until i tried to go down from third again. hope that helps i need to open mine up again see whats going on this is becoming aggravating.

[tri again]

my big red is doing the same thing I have fixed it twice but every time I downshift from third it falls into a false Neutral and is prettymuch stcuk there until I take off the side case...

was that bearing behind the gear shift mechanism loose? mine had one of the bearing stays turn down causing the bearing to come loose..
so i fixed that tightened it put new oil in and it worked until i tried to go down from third again. hope that helps i need to open mine up again see whats going on this is becoming aggravating.

What year is your BR?
I have heard of shift problems specific to certain models or years.

For instance, the 125m has a common shift drum stopper failure.
In my case, the mounting boss IN the case broke off but it's usually a bent or
broken 5 dollar shift drum stopper.
On the 85 sx, it's usually a bent or broken pin, occasionally a bent shift shaft.
or cracked "arm, gearshift".
Even tho the BR and SX are the same engines, I've only heard of it happening on theSX.

It seemed to shift with the left side cover off so all that stuff looked ok and yes,
also not looking fwd to taking off the right side cover.

Hopefully something will be obvious.
Most folks also say it's a good idea to have the trike on it's side and
as level as possible.
I pulled the clutch adjustment side cover off a 110 and about 5 things simply fell off
which wouldn't have happened if I had it dead level, if that makes sense.

Are you able to get side cover gaskets?

[RiJiD-WILL]

my big red is an 85 but the motor could be from a newer big red I got it from a garage it was sitting for the last 10 years waiting to go in a go cart when i scooped it up it ran great for long time not a single problem until this shifting problem.

the only problem I had with the R side case was the spring for the arm that sits in front of the neutral and reverse indicators that came off with the case and was a little pain getting back in not too hard, although I dont think that Right side is where the problem is if it feels like everything is operating smoothly on the left. you should feel the shift shaft binding.

[Flyingw]

The first thing you guys need to check is the shift shaft. Pull it out and lay a straight edge along it checking it around the shaft. A mild bend will cause this problem. Lets start there.

[RiJiD-WILL]

thats a good idea Flyingw sometimes the simplest thing can get overlooked.

[tri again]

The first thing you guys need to check is the shift shaft. Pull it out and lay a straight edge along it checking it around the shaft. A mild bend will cause this problem. Lets start there.

Excellent point fw

Mine seemed to click everything under the left cover ok with the cover off.
all bolts tight, pin not snapped or bent and gs arm not cracked.
I even lined it up with a known working shift shaft and decided to put the known working shift shaft
so I didn't have to mess with the 'arn, gearshift' bracket looking thing.
Sure didn't look bent but maybe they both are bent a little.
Hate to admit it but I ride barefoot because of all the mud and click the shifter gently,
not that it hasn't been mashed a few times since 1985.

Even bought a new pin and that gearshift arm as they are the most common fail points.

They say some people (especially visitors and borrowers) stomp the poor lil' shifters like they are footpegs
so the shift shafts can and do bend.

Not even sure what to look for under the right side cover but thankfully
have a parts sx with both covers buzzed loose.

[Flyingw]

I was helping a guy at 3WO with very much the same problem. He took it to his local shop and they determined his shift shaft was ever so slightly bent. They replaced the shaft, op ck good.

[tri again]

another few hrs on search key mentions a bolt number 8 that holds the
star gear to the shift drum can come loose.

No mention of anything interesting under the other (right) side cover yet.
so tomorrow's another fix it day.

[RiJiD-WILL]

I think its my shift drum it was really loose looking for the torque in the manual now.

the manual just says to tighten it. so ill just tighten it by hand.

[Husky250]

My 225 dx is doing the same thing. Ran fine when I put it away. Didn't ride it for a month or so then...... 1st gear is all I can get..... I'm certainly not mechanically inclined enough to start splitting cases and not rich enough to get anyone to do it for me..... Thinkin it's terminal..... SIGH!

[RiJiD-WILL]

There shouldn't be any splitting cases , we are just talking side cases or covers actually.

If you can find the manual online it should have pics or as soon as you take the side cover off take a few pics before you touch anything then start from the shifter and trace what everything does and where it goes then check for loose bolts broken, bent or cracked parts metal shavings.

Just be patient its intimidating if you haven't done it before but that's just cause its new go slow lay the bolts out in order you took them out and focus I like to make sure I have no distractions that can ruin your day and set you back.

There is a manual section here somewhere I'll try to find a link.



My 225 dx is doing the same thing. Ran fine when I put it away. Didn't ride it for a month or so then...... 1st gear is all I can get..... I'm certainly not mechanically inclined enough to start splitting cases and not rich enough to get anyone to do it for me..... Thinkin it's terminal..... SIGH!

[tri again]

There shouldn't be any splitting cases , we are just talking side cases or covers actually.

If you can find the manual online it should have pics or as soon as you take the side cover off take a few pics before you touch anything then start from the shifter and trace what everything does and where it goes then check for loose bolts broken, bent or cracked parts metal shavings.

Just be patient its intimidating if you haven't done it before but that's just cause its new go slow lay the bolts out in order you took them out and focus I like to make sure I have no distractions that can ruin your day and set you back.

There is a manual section here somewhere I'll try to find a link.

10-4 x2

Get in a place with no dust, wind, cats jumping around or phones ringing.

I looked for days and heard about the pin and arm piece but then figured out the stud bolt for the shift drum.

2 tiny springs that hold 2 little chicklet looking dogs that CAN easily fall and drop into the engine.

Really needs an almost surgical operating field, tiny parts that hold the future and yes,
best with NO distractions or mosquitos.
Some of my tools almost got flying lessons.

[RiJiD-WILL]

I did exactly that lost two of those little chicklets in the skid plate and the round cylinder guide fell out right into the motor through that hole below it luckily I found it with a magnetized screw driver.. getting that little shift drum in was a pain. I took a screen shot of the manual I think this is what we are both dealing with.

http://i1080.photobucket.com/albums/j328/RiJiD/shift-drum.jpg

I need to get a tube for my front tire hopefully tomorrow then I can test it it does shift up and down now with the trike in the air on a milk crate.

[tri again]

I did exactly that lost two of those little chicklets in the skid plate and the round cylinder guide fell out right into the motor through that hole below it luckily I found it with a magnetized screw driver.. getting that little shift drum in was a pain. I took a screen shot of the manual I think this is what we are both dealing with.

http://i1080.photobucket.com/albums/j328/RiJiD/shift-drum.jpg

I need to get a tube for my front tire hopefully tomorrow then I can test it it does shift up and down now with the trike in the air on a milk crate.

precisely!

The manual says to load the dogs and springs and spring caps into the
cover plate but I have my doubts.
GF has long fingernails and got it to go in but
the shift lever oval hole was off by a thousandts or 2 for the shifter to
go over that little collar so I may have a bent or distorted
shift drum.
When that bolt pin backed out it may have deformed the drum.
I can't see how but even took the springs out and just tried to get the little
*&^% in there without even messing weith the springs so yer
in a way more advanced stage than I.

Luckily I have a parts sx so I can swap the silly little pieces,
but so far, it's not helping.

Good luck my friend in stargear world.
Is your other pin tight and drum stopper and it's roller ok?

and that shift arm piece not cracked?
Not sure what else to check while we're in there but also
would like to find something else to obsess over..like summertime
and dune rides.

I've been in this things twice now and hope it's the last.

[RiJiD-WILL]

yup all the parts were straight and no cracks what I did to get that drum with the chicklet "pawls" in I just held the drum without that cover plate that way you can hold the little chicklets in once its in you can take the plate back the drum and chicklets out just a hair and get one side of the plate over the lip then the other side kinda like an under over motion if that makes sense.

I had the same problem with the alignment issue, i wiggled the shift drum and heard it shift inside then it lined up right.

LOL its good to know someones in the same boat as I am I think we got it figured out.
I think it would be really hard to warp that drum that would take alot of heat and force, so you should be ok there.

[tri again]

yup all the parts were straight and no cracks what I did to get that drum with the chicklet "pawls" in I just held the drum without that cover plate that way you can hold the little chicklets in once its in you can take the plate back the drum and chicklets out just a hair and get one side of the plate over the lip then the other side kinda like an under over motion if that makes sense.

I had the same problem with the alignment issue, i wiggled the shift drum and heard it shift inside then it lined up right.

LOL its good to know someones in the same boat as I am I think we got it figured out.
I think it would be really hard to warp that drum that would take alot of heat and force, so you should be ok there.

Thanks for the hope.
Darkness and skeeters got the best of me.
so yeah?
you had the same issue getting the shift arm oval back over the collar too?

like off by the thickness of a sheet of paper is all.

Good luck. I can't think of anything else to check.
Should have a report by tomorrow.
I almost tried to start mine before I put oil back in so I knew it was time for a break.

HeY!
what in the heck is that dent / dink mark on the drum star?? It looks like you can see it 1/2 inch or so to the right of the pointer on the picture you posted. 'shift drum center'
Hard to believe it means nothing. but I'm also borderline paranoid with this project.
looks like some sort of alignment indicator...but maybe to align the drum with some internal
gears that we don't need to know about

[RiJiD-WILL]

the first or second time I had the side cover off I had the problem lining up the shift shaft over the shift drum and it was just a hair off.

crap IDK what that mark is hopefully just a bad pic. now I am gunna have to go check my spare parts to see if that mark is there otherwise I will be thinking about it all night lol nothing like waking up thinking about what part goes where.

-

ok I looked at the punch mark on my spare motor that has the side case off its pretty much in the middle on the left side. I dont know who messed with this spare motor when I got it the cases were off and everything was in a jar. the only thing I can think of is that punch mark is showing where the hole is on the back side of the drum. I always lined the drum up over that peg never noticed the punch mark I dont think the manual even says anything about it.

[RiJiD-WILL]

looking through the manual I dont see any mention of that punch mark on the outside of the star drum. it just says to line up the dowel pin to the hole on the drum, the position of the hole and pin on mine was to the right in the center I wonder if that matters? everything feels really smooth and I can feel it shift in and out of gear so I dont think it matters, the manual would say something about it I would think.

http://i1080.photobucket.com/albums/j328/RiJiD/drum-dowel-pin.jpg

one thing I didn't pay attention to is the shift shaft spring or (gearshift spindle as the manual calls it), how the shaft spring fit over the return spring pin.

my shift shaft lined up to shift collar like in the pic and the side case went on easy but the return spring pin fitting between the spring wasn't something I noticed I may take the cover off again tomorrow just to double check. I'm probably just worrying too much now I dont think it would have lined up at all if I didnt have the spring over that pin.

http://i1080.photobucket.com/albums/j328/RiJiD/shift-return-spring-pin.jpg

I hope this thread comes in handy for others.

[tri again]

looking through the manual I dont see any mention of that punch mark on the outside of the star drum. it just says to line up the dowel pin to the hole on the drum, the position of the hole and pin on mine was to the right in the center I wonder if that matters? everything feels really smooth and I can feel it shift in and out of gear so I dont think it matters, the manual would say something about it I would think.

http://i1080.photobucket.com/albums/j328/RiJiD/drum-dowel-pin.jpg

one thing I didn't pay attention to is the shift shaft spring or (gearshift spindle as the manual calls it), how the shaft spring fit over the return spring pin.

my shift shaft lined up to shift collar like in the pic and the side case went on easy but the return spring pin fitting between the spring wasn't something I noticed I may take the cover off again tomorrow just to double check. I'm probably just worrying too much now I dont think it would have lined up at all if I didnt have the spring over that pin.

http://i1080.photobucket.com/albums/j328/RiJiD/shift-return-spring-pin.jpg

I hope this thread comes in handy for others.

I prob spent 15 hrs searching this topic so hopefully it will save headaches.

I bet that punch mark tells of the dowel hole on the other side.
as far as that shift spindle long shaft spring, it just wants to straddle the
stud pin and no way you could have it wrong.
Mine's still apart so I can double check tomorrow.
Maybe save you another cover off.

What book are those pictures from?
The service manual I have is from here and the pix are different.

Welp, sorry about disturbing the peace, but that punch mark was driving me nutts too.
Pretty cool we both have parts trikes but mine's like yours,
taken apart by who knows, for whatever reason.

so maybe we ride tomorrow...

keep the faith. and thanks for all the confirmations.

[tri again]

dude et al and the trike gods.

I officially gave up on the shift drum 85 250 sx no shift issue.

It is now chained up under the cypress tree with the other sx.

The shift drum seems warped somehow when that center pin bolt/stud backed out.

I changed known working parts, snugged stuff down and it just will not shift.

Loosened bolts and it shifts.

The only advice I can give is that the wheels should be free to roll a little so the dogs and shift muffs have a couple thousandths to move ...
in other words..
ya know when you try to find a gear with the engine off, we rock 'em back and forth a little so they have a place to
go?

welp, that is a good thing to do but I simply give up.

Fire season in the western states is upon us and I need to move on to some kickass
machine that will get us there and back. (sorry honda trike gods, we'll be back)

signed.
sad and officially give up till next year.

[atc007]

Am I hearing right that it WILL shift if the bolt is not tightened? What bolts need to be loose? The clutch cover? Or the stopper arm? Guide plate? I admittedly did not read this entire post and obviously should have. My experience here. Ok,,,the shift pawls only go in and WORK one way. They will go in backwards and give you EXACTLY what you have. They are ONE way ! Assuming all parts are THERE[[ ESPECIALLY !!! The little collar type washer,,Pic #1,post #1,without that in there,,{ it falls off easy} it will NOT shift about 9 times out of 10,or not at all. } I think we have simply missed something in assembly,with all the right players being present and not worn. I realize you wanna give up and understand! But I think you are SO close here. I would look to make sure that washer is ther and the pawls are in the right way.

[RiJiD-WILL]

atc 007 is right I felt the same way I hate parting machines out but I was so mad at this problem I was ready to.

the shift pawls is and excellent idea for the problem you are having triagain they should go in with the rounded edge of the pawl against the inside round ball attached to the spring I forget the name of it. the flat edge goes out into the shift drum.

[tri again]

awww, thanks youse guys.

It's so busy here right now with all the emergencies.

Those chicklet looking dogs are symmetrical and the rounded ends want to be against the rounded
part of the inner drum with the little ball point pen springs loading them out with the squared ends
out towards the shift drum end.

007 - Generally, the stud pin backed out of the shift drum so it worked and worked until
it backed out just enough to stop working.
12 mm deep socket, tightened that pin and reassembled and it just won't spin.

There is a cover plate that hold the whole assembly together and if that is loose, it wants to shift.
if it's tightened down, it binds everything.

EDIT: UPDATE: YES, IT WAS THE THREADED PIN THAT CAME LOOSE AND GOT BENT SO WHEN THE COVER IS TIGHTENED, IT WOULD NOT SHIFT.

It is a little complicated but really can only go in one way.

We're gonna have 1,000 people here in a couple days for a few days so I'd have to find a
place to hide to be able to focus on it.

I promise I'll try it again

[tri again]

atc 007 is right I felt the same way I hate parting machines out but I was so mad at this problem I was ready to.

the shift pawls is and excellent idea for the problem you are having triagain they should go in with the rounded edge of the pawl against the inside round ball attached to the spring I forget the name of it. the flat edge goes out into the shift drum.

RiJiD?
did yours go back together and work?
any thoughts on that index dent mark?
I know mine is rotated about 15 degrees ccw from how it came apart but can't imagine that's a problem.
especially none of the books mention it.

I think propping the trike on it's side with the wheels able to spin or wiggle a little to get gears to line up
would help.

[RiJiD-WILL]

My wife got a tube yesterday and if it has the right valve stem offset I should be able to test it today everything feels smooth like it should work but I have done this twice now so I don't want to say its fixed until I can drive it and shift through all the gears.


are the guides that the cover plate bolts go through maybe bent or squished or maybe the plate itself is bent that is strange it doesn't want to move are you trying to move it with the shift shaft on. because if youre turning the drum by hand that arm with the roller on it puts some pressure on the drum that might be causing it to feel stuck.

[tri again]

My wife got a tube yesterday and if it has the right valve stem offset I should be able to test it today everything feels smooth like it should work but I have done this twice now so I don't want to say its fixed until I can drive it and shift through all the gears.


are the guides that the cover plate bolts go through maybe bent or squished or maybe the plate itself is bent that is strange it doesn't want to move are you trying to move it with the shift shaft on. because if youre turning the drum by hand that arm with the roller on it puts some pressure on the drum that might be causing it to feel stuck.

yupp, I just put 2 plates together and one is not flat, thinking it was the one that came off may have
bent when that pin backed out.

I'll also try another pin from the parts machine in case it has reamed itself an 'edge'
when it backed out.

I can't think of anything else except swap with other parts.

and yes, I used the shift lever with the cover off so I could get the correct amount of
torsion on it.
My guess at the moment is the cover plate is bent and the pin may have gotten galled and funky.

The hay finally got cut 20 min ago so I need to trim the edges of the field so we can pass fire inspection....a 2500$ fine if it's not done.
1947 jd 2 cylinder with a brush hog.

Maybe that will help my kharmic clarity and I'll get back to the trike.

[Dirtcrasher]

dude et al and the trike gods.

I officially gave up on the shift drum 85 250 sx no shift issue.

It is now chained up under the cypress tree with the other sx.

The shift drum seems warped somehow when that center pin bolt/stud backed out.

I changed known working parts, snugged stuff down and it just will not shift.

Loosened bolts and it shifts.

The only advice I can give is that the wheels should be free to roll a little so the dogs and shift muffs have a couple thousandths to move ...
in other words..
ya know when you try to find a gear with the engine off, we rock 'em back and forth a little so they have a place to
go?

welp, that is a good thing to do but I simply give up.

Fire season in the western states is upon us and I need to move on to some kickass
machine that will get us there and back. (sorry honda trike gods, we'll be back)

signed.
sad and officially give up till next year.

NEVER give up. Since I owned a CR60 back about 85 or 86; I was convinced that the cases had to be split.

Later on I found a simple bolt that had come loose.

I tell you what, I'd rather rebuild a transmission than find a simple issue I overlooked.

It's easy but both the ES and SX have issues down the rod. Fix it once, pat yourself on the back and ENJOY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!