1984 200ES CDI Replacement, MythBusted..

[kb0nly]

After posting my dissection and repair of an 84 CDI i decided it was time to take this one step further, first off, the replacement of the CDI on a 84 since everyone is convinced its a hoodoo voodoo box that can't be replaced.

First off, yes the 84 is different then other years, but its nothing special. Because the 84 had reverse there is a reverse switch input which is a gray wire that is grounded when the sub trans is shifted into reverse, for some reason they decided for safety sake that you shouldn't be able to crank the starter when its in reverse, even if the shifter is in neutral.. I don't know why but this is how mine worked, if i had it in reverse to back into the shed and kicked her to neutral but left it in reverse before shutting off i couldn't then start it until i also moved the sub-trans lever out of reverse.

Anyway, i fixed my CDI as i posted in the other thread. And it was still running fine after days of riding, no issues loosing spark again, but the spark still didn't look that strong to me. I bought a new DR8ES-L plug and it looked a little better but still not what i would call an optimal spark and the plug seemed to be fouling again, i also noticed it would randomly pop while cruising along in 3rd-5th gear and half throttle or more, it was missing! So i decided since i have been through everything else electrical and mechanical on this BR i would replace the CDI.

First thing i did was go to

http://dratv.com/cdiunatseeap.html

And purchase a CDI unit from him along with the male/female connector kit. Total cost of about $26 plus shipping. Local dealer wants $199.00 for a replacement CDI for the 84 and its special order. The CDI from DrATV has no reverse safety and it has no rev limiter function, so its a basic CDI but it works fine. It even fits the stock mounting rubber that the original was in, the size is roughly the same.

Follow the wiring diagram he has on that page with the CDI. I removed the contacts from the stock round connector with the intent to just put them in the shell of the new connector but a couple of the contacts looked pretty rough, someone had tried tightening them up before by pinching with a pliers. So i cut off the old crimps and used the new ones with the connector kit. I crimped them on carefully with a needle nose pliers then soldered each on as well to insure they stay put. Popped the wires into the positions following the picture on his site and hit the start button...

ROAR... Holy crap i about shat myself. I have never heard it crack over that healthy and it barely turned over with the starter, i would say first plug fire had it running smooth. No more pop while cruising and the idle is much better, though i have a throttle cable problem to sort out yet as i have to take apart the throttle and grease it so it returns fully back to idle without getting stuck just above idle.

As for the spark improvement?? From yellowish with the original CDI to a VERY strong light blue white spark, i put my spark tester inline before the plug and it has enough voltage now to not only jump the test gap in the tester but also the spark plug at the same time and still run while the tester is inline, before it wouldn't run with the tester inline though i did see spark in the tester.

So moral of the story, if you have an 84 get a new CDI for it if your having ignition or running problems!

[GTO]

Thanks for another great post, I have ordered a Lifan 125 for my ATC 70 and that got me thinking if a C90 cdi will work on a 200ES and the Lifan seems to be a copy of the horizontal Honda engines would the Chinese 5 Pin cdi not work on the 200es as well.

I found this on a british site dedicated to the Honda TLR trials bike:

http://www.classictrial.co.uk/hondacdi.html

See what they say about spark intensity deterioating overs the years, all my 200es seem to have weak sparks!

So I have ordered a Chinese 5 Pin cdi and will give it a try as soon as I can get to my trikes(they are at our holiday place).

[atc007]

Great work KB!! VERY quality post. In my years fixing sleds and bikes,,yes,,it is a AWESOME sound to hear an engine crank with a good hardy spark!!

[kb0nly]

GTO - ANY five/six pin CDI will work on the 200ES. Now that i have the rectangular plug wired on mine i tried a few different CDI units i have here as spares, some are from trikes some are from dirt bikes, one is off an old honda scooter i think, anyway they all work and create a lot better spark then the stock CDI unit.

I found some CDI units on eBay for $5 each, brand new, from China. For that price, with free shipping no less, i am going to order four of them for the cost of one from DrATV just to evaluate them and keep as spares. I want to compare spark output as well as engine behavior using these el' cheapo's because i know of a few other trike owners fighting weak/intermittent spark. I wish i had a better source for the connector, i don't YET... I say YET because i am going to call a couple electronics suppliers of mine and see if i can source the connector cheaper in a bulk quantity, also the male/female connector kit that DrATV is selling doesn't have the mating latch for the CDI unit, the connector plugs in tight though and i put a zip tie around it to make sure it can't vibrate out over time, but if they can be found then why not.

Think there is any interest in selling a retrofit kit? Basically a new/tested CDI unit with plug/contact kit and wiring diagram? It's easy enough for everyone to source the parts themselves just thinking out loud.

atc007 - Thanks! And it sure is awesome! It ran "ok" before but the sound difference and power on acceleration is mind blowing now. I now see why it was fouling plugs so bad with the stock CDI unit.

[kb0nly]

http://www.vintageconnections.com/

They have the male and female latching connector with crimps for both, $3 for the pair. Just found my new supplier for these!

[GTO]

GTO - ANY five/six pin CDI will work on the 200ES. Now that i have the rectangular plug wired on mine i tried a few different CDI units i have here as spares, some are from trikes some are from dirt bikes, one is off an old honda scooter i think, anyway they all work and create a lot better spark then the stock CDI unit.

I found some CDI units on eBay for $5 each, brand new, from China. For that price, with free shipping no less, i am going to order four of them for the cost of one from DrATV just to evaluate them and keep as spares. I want to compare spark output as well as engine behavior using these el' cheapo's because i know of a few other trike owners fighting weak/intermittent spark. I wish i had a better source for the connector, i don't YET... I say YET because i am going to call a couple electronics suppliers of mine and see if i can source the connector cheaper in a bulk quantity, also the male/female connector kit that DrATV is selling doesn't have the mating latch for the CDI unit, the connector plugs in tight though and i put a zip tie around it to make sure it can't vibrate out over time, but if they can be found then why not.

I am glad to here that any 5 pin CDI should work, I should be able to get to my trikes in 2 weeks time to give it a try, I will hook the CDI up in the mean time without the connector.

5$ is cheap could you post the link, the one I sourced online locally here cost me the equivilant of $40, there is a guy here in Cape Town who has them for around $20 but he is out of stock at the moment.
So if it works I will wait until he gets his new stock so I can replace the others.

I will try and source the connector locally but I did find these on ebay:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/180363992879?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649

[sinsayers]

Great info guys. Keep up the good work

[kb0nly]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/CDI-Box-One-Plug-with-5-Pins-Pin-for-50-70-90-110cc-ATV-/380272279024?pt=Motors_ATV_Parts_Accessories&hash=item5889fe7df0&vxp=mtr

Thats the one i bought four of, the number on the top of it in the photo is the same as another one i have, don't remember what it actually came off of, but it works just find on the 200es so i figured i would get some ordered in for spares for mine and others.

Yep that link you posted is the connector you need. Overseas for me but good for you! I am going to order a few sets from the vintage connectors website that i linked. With those and the spares i should have a CDI for any trike i have come through here now.

[kb0nly]

Great info guys. Keep up the good work

Thanks! Now go fix that 85... LOL

[GTO]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/CDI-Box-One-Plug-with-5-Pins-Pin-for-50-70-90-110cc-ATV-/380272279024?pt=Motors_ATV_Parts_Accessories&hash=item5889fe7df0&vxp=mtr

Thats the one i bought four of, the number on the top of it in the photo is the same as another one i have, don't remember what it actually came off of, but it works just find on the 200es so i figured i would get some ordered in for spares for mine and others.

Yep that link you posted is the connector you need. Overseas for me but good for you! I am going to order a few sets from the vintage connectors website that i linked. With those and the spares i should have a CDI for any trike i have come through here now.

Damn they don't have South Africa on there list of shipping destinations, seems like only to Europe but the shipping is high any way($19).

I found this one little bit more but they ship to SA.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/5-PIN-CDI-PIT-BIKE-ATV-GOKART-SDG-SSR-PITSTER-PRO-TAOTAO-KAZUMA-ROKETA-TAOTAO-/250966381822?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item3a6ec314fe&vxp=mtr

Works out a bit cheaper than I can get it here but I would still have to pay customs tax on it when it arrives.

[Howdy]

Damn they don't have South Africa on there list of shipping destinations, seems like only to Europe but the shipping is high any way($19).

I found this one little bit more but they ship to SA.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/5-PIN-CDI-PIT-BIKE-ATV-GOKART-SDG-SSR-PITSTER-PRO-TAOTAO-KAZUMA-ROKETA-TAOTAO-/250966381822?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item3a6ec314fe&vxp=mtr (http://rover.ebay.com/rover/1/711-53200-19255-0/1?campid=5336526073&toolid=10001&mpre=http://www.ebay.com/itm/5-PIN-CDI-PIT-BIKE-ATV-GOKART-SDG-SSR-PITSTER-PRO-TAOTAO-KAZUMA-ROKETA-TAOTAO-/250966381822?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item3a6ec314fe&vxp=mtr)

Works out a bit cheaper than I can get it here but I would still have to pay customs tax on it when it arrives.

Buy what you need and have it shipped to me. Once I get it I will send you a gift or "return and item to you"!!! You shouldn't have to pay customs on a return. ;)
Might save you some $$!!
HowdyHowdy

[GTO]

Buy what you need and have it shipped to me. Once I get it I will send you a gift or "return and item to you"!!! You shouldn't have to pay customs on a return. ;)
Might save you some $$!!
HowdyHowdy

Thanks Howdy, once I have tested the one I have ordered locally here.
If it works I will send you a PM

[GTO]

My CDI arrived today, i found a 6 pin extension at my local electrical wholesaler just down the road.
So they aren't that difficult to source after all.
I should be able to get to our holiday place next weekend to give the CDI a try.

[kb0nly]

Awesome! That should get you up and running again! Make sure you do a good job splicing the wires, i would probably just solder and heatshrink each connection, but if you can find them over there you can get heatshrinkable/glue lined butt splices. Thats what i usually use, they are a crimp style butt splice but have a double wall heatshrink tubing already applied to them with hot melt glue lining, so when you shrink them down after crimping they seal up tight, no water problems.

[GTO]

Awesome! That should get you up and running again! Make sure you do a good job splicing the wires, i would probably just solder and heatshrink each connection, but if you can find them over there you can get heatshrinkable/glue lined butt splices. Thats what i usually use, they are a crimp style butt splice but have a double wall heatshrink tubing already applied to them with hot melt glue lining, so when you shrink them down after crimping they seal up tight, no water problems.

I will remove the old connectors from the round plug first and hook them up to the new cdi to test it first then I was going to cut the wires on the extension and solder them to the wires on the harness.

[kb0nly]

Thats what i did to, i removed them from the round plug and plugged them into the new cdi, fired it up, revved it a few times, then made it permanent.

[GTO]

I just found out that my brother is flying to Houston on Monday for business and will be there for 3 weeks.
So maybe I can buy some of those cheap CDI units on eBay and ship them to his company's office in Houston.

[4x4van]

This is fantastic work, and much appreciated by many of us. Is it likely that those same CDI units would work on 2-strokes, as well, such as the 250R? How about a Yamaha BW200?

I ask, because I recently had to replace the CDI on my BW and it cost me over $250!!! A friend also replaced one on a TW recently; $285. I've long suspected that these damn little black boxes were way overpriced and that there had to be a cheaper and more easily accessible alternative. Based on your work, it seems that the basics of all of them are pretty much the same, with just a few "bells & whistles" on some, such as the reverse lock-out. Many, if not all, of those "Bells & whistles" can likely be discarded without affecting the actual engine running function of the CDI.

[kb0nly]

I have tried five different CDI units on my 200ES now, they all work fine and run great, so i am sure anything could be wired to a universal one without much trouble.

[oscarmayer]

shiat, we throw out those stocker black ones all the itme for my son's racing ATVs. i have liek 4-5 of them lying in boxes around the storage room that we yanked off harnessess and ATVs we build for racing and testing and such. they toss them at me liek candy everytime i walk in. "mike want another cdi" and toss liek 2 or 3at me. Here's the deal, i always order the racing CDIs for our bikes. if the ones you say work for the 200cc engines, then the same racing ones i run that have even much hotter spark and better running would also work. they also do not have rev limiters and some are ven adjsutable in timing now!! (we have someoen looking to use me as a test bed for testing the timings on these to see how wwell the run in real raicng enviroments (well my son's ATV)

[DasUberKraut]

So just out of curiosity. This would work on my 84 125m? I don't know for sure that I'm having electrical issues as I haven't tested anything. I do have poor response at mid range though. Most likely fuel related, but new electronics can't hurt. I also run an NGK Iridium plug.

[kb0nly]

No reason why it wouldn't... I would have to look at the schematic for the 125 but i believe it has the same type of CDI system. You would just have to swap the plug is all.

EDIT: Just went and looked at the 125M wiring diagram, five wire, yes these cheap CDI units will work just fine on it.

[DasUberKraut]

Thanks boss. :boss

[86T3]

My CDI just went in my 85 Big Red. That is a six wire CDI, i'm assuming this wouldn't work for it?

Edit: Is this the one i'd be looking for?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/GY6-CDI-Ignition-6-pins-go-kart-atv-buggy-moped-scooter-GY6-Engine-CDI-plug-/170854149431?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item27c7b36d37&vxp=mtr

[kb0nly]

The 85 BR can use this cheap CDI also. You will just leave the neutral switch wire disconnected, actually i put it in the new plug but there is nothing there for it to connect to on the CDI but it keeps the wire out of the way. That will allow the Neutral indicator light to still work and the new CDI don't care.

The 84 is a 6 wire CDI also, but one wire is the reverse safety.

[86T3]

So the neutral light on the dash will work the way it always has but i'll be able to start the bike in gear? That will be pretty nice.

[kb0nly]

I just double checked the wiring diagram cause its been a while since i worked on a 250ES...

Let me clear it up a bit...

The Neutral switch turns on the light by switching its ground, as well as providing a ground to the starter relay, the start push button on the 85 provides 12v to the starter relay. The Neutral input to the CDI on the 85 looks to be a safety that works in conjunction with the kill switch. So you will still have to put it into neutral for the electric starter to function but you could potentially kick start it while in gear so be aware of that safety wise.

The reverse switch on the 85 is different than other years, the only purpose it serves it to turn on the reverse indicator light looking at the diagram.

On my 84 the reverse switch is part of the safety system, it runs the inhibitor relay as the 84 has a switched ground for the starter relay. Your's doesn't have this inhibitor relay so all you have to worry about is wiring up CDI right minus the neutral switch input. If you look at the DrATV page that i linked to earlier he has a diagram that you can follow along with a picture, it shows how he just put the unused gray wire in the empty terminal position. On your 85 it would be the Green/Red wire that would be unused.

Here is the wiring diagram.

http://www.3wheelerworld.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=85520&d=1261803431

All the other wire colors at the CDI on the 85 look to cross over color wise.

[sinsayers]

Thanks KB, great stuff as usual

[86T3]

Thanks a lot for the info. I got some bad news tonight though, i took my CDI to my buddies and put it on his 85 BR. Ran like a champ. I think i'm chasing a broken wire or something like that, my ignition coil, exciter coil and pulse generator all read fine. O well, 2 CDI s and 2 connector kits only cost me $20, i'll just shelf them.

[kb0nly]

I wouldn't write it off as a working CDI just yet... On my 84 it wouldn't always work, but sometimes tossing it on the sidewalk a few times or plugging it into something else then back to the 84 and it would work again. It could still be a bad CDI that just cooperated when you plugged it into his BR but never know!

I would go over every connection on it, and try disconnecting the kill wire and the neutral wire from the CDI, which bypasses all the safety's to the CDI, then see if you get spark. And like i described earlier in this thread, don't just ohm out the exciter, check it for actual voltage output when cranking, then check that the output is being pulsed at the CDI from the pulse generator, and check for voltage at the coil when cranking also, and also try removing the plug wire from the coil and spark plug boot to check both ends. They just screw onto the cable with what looks like a screw in the center of them. If the wire is corroded badly you can just get a chunk of plug wire from any auto parts store and cut it to length to replace it.

[86T3]

How much voltage should the exciter and at the coil? The manual has nothing about this.

[kb0nly]

The exciter is 10-30v depending on engine speed, i forget what the voltage is from the CDI to the coil but its over 100v i think, its been a while since i measured it on one. Just set your meter to AC voltage and put the negative lead to the frame then the positive lead to the wire from the exciter, crank and see what you have, if you have voltage there then go to the pulse generator and check the output, this is tricky with a digital meter as its quick pulses of AC voltage. An old school analog meter so you can watch the needle jump or an old style test light with a bulb and not an LED in it works also. If you have output from the pulse generator then check the input at the CDI just to double check and then check the output of the CDI which is the wire going to the coil. The test light works best for checking for the pulses after the pulse generator and the CDI.

You just have to chase the voltages through the system until you find where it stops. If you have voltages everywhere and pulses but still no spark then its got to be the coil, plug wire, plug cap, spark plug. If you have spark but still no fire, check your timing and valve adjustments. Also if you have spark how good is the spark? If its yellow or orange its pretty weak, if its blue or bluish white then your fine.

Weak spark on these is generally due to the CDI not ramping up the voltage enough for the coil. Sometimes its a weak coil, but i can't recall ever replacing a coil that just failed, i replaced one that got broke one time, but generally they are pretty bulletproof. There is the chance that the CDI worked on your buddies because the situation is different, compression differences that let it run with weaker spark, etc. I would still try replacing the CDI with a new one as well, those old CDI's get pretty weak with age due to the aging of the components in it.

[86T3]

I have no spark at all. It started as an intermittent problem. I rode it for a minute, parked it to adjust the brakes and then it wouldn't start. no spark at all. Next morning, fired right up. Ran it for less than a minute, shut it off to mess with the rack, then it wouldn't start. no spark. Next morning i check it and it pops twice then nothing. I just checked my coil at my buddies and it worked fine also. I'm going to follow the voltage now and see where it leaves off. Sorry to steal your thread but thanks immensely for the help

[86T3]

148926148927

The teeth off the starter gear took out the coils. The previous owner showed me the old starter with the teeth ground off, i never thought that they could get into the crank case. looks like i need to do some more parts shopping

[kb0nly]

Dang, so i take it the stator wasn't putting out much voltage due to the damage? I have seen them ohm out ok but still be damaged so no surprise.

Its all a shared oil sump so anything that falls off ends up rattling around, and the flywheel being a big magnet usually attracts any metal that ends up in the crankcase. When i pulled mine apart to fix the one way starter clutch, 84 200ES, i found some metal filings on the flywheel being held by the magnet, it was from the chewed up rollers in the one way clutch. Probably good the flywheel got those filings, they couldn't damage anything else!

A stator for an 85 isn't that hard to find, check eBay. There is also a couple companies that make an updated higher output unit as well. I forgot the 85 had an all in one stator for charging/lights and ignition, the 84 has a separate exciter and alternator coils.

[GTO]

GOOD NEWS!!!
My father is at our holiday place at the moment and he installed the chinese CDI I bought the other day into one of our 200es trikes.
I am happy to report that he says the spark has definitely improved.
Now I can go ahead and buy some more CDI's

[kb0nly]

GOOD NEWS!!!
My father is at our holiday place at the moment and he installed the chinese CDI I bought the other day into one of our 200es trikes.
I am happy to report that he says the spark has definitely improved.
Now I can go ahead and buy some more CDI's

Awesome! The stock CDI is just old enough to be going bad on most of these, so i think it will be very common to see these failing.

[86T3]

Great news!

[GTO]

UPDATE:
I managed to get to our holiday place this weekend and the trike that my father installed the chinese CDI runs beautifully and at last I have a 200ES that has the correct brown colour on the plug electrodes(they were always black like they were running rich but as I have always thought it was a weak spark causing this):D.Once my brother gets back from Houston with the additional CDIs I will have another 3 200ES that run properly!:D

[kb0nly]

Sweet! I was hopeful that your problem would be solved. Mine really runs good now after running a couple tanks of gas through with some seafoam mixed in, i think the exhaust valve was bad carbon'ed from fouling before replacing the CDI. The first tank of gas with seafoam mixed in it was blowing black smoke out the exhaust so bad it left a black circle on the front of the small trailer i pull behind it. After the first tank full the smoke stopped but i had enough to treat another tank full so i figured why not, it would get a little black smoke on revving up for a few days then it cleaned up, no more black smoke and it definitely revs better. You might want to think about running some cleaner through as well, couldn't hurt if you were fouling that bad like i was!

[GTO]

I have rebuilt all 4 engines as well as new carb rebuilt kits in all of them, so thats why I was pretty sure it was a weak spark issue.
Funny thing is after a complete strip down and rebuilt on each the CDI's started failing one after the other.
It was driving me crazy especially considering the money I had put into them.
One of them now has no spark with the electric start but sparks with the pull start?(spark is pathetic though compared to the one with the new CDI)
Also they all seemed to have a slight misfire at higher rpms but the one wih the new CDI now doesn't have the misfire anymore!

[kb0nly]

Most likely what happened is you rebuilt them bringing the compression back up to the point that the weak spark was no longer able to properly fire the plug.

The electric start vs pull start problem i think i have figured out as well!

The pull start gives a longer pause between pulses, looking at a test light connected to the pulse generator output and pull starting it i couldn't get it to flash as fast as it would with the electric start no matter how hard and fast i pulled. You would think that this would mean that electric would work better than the pull start on a weak CDI but its exact opposite. The longer dwell time of the pulses when using the pull start allows the weakening components in the CDI to catch up, mainly the capacitors is my guess, so that it gets sufficient voltage built up to fire. With the electric starter its a quicker on/off cycle that it can't keep up and only throws an occasional spark.

Again this is only my hypothesis, but watching a test light on the output of the pulse generator and a spark tester inline with the plug this is the conclusion i came up with.

[GTO]

Most likely what happened is you rebuilt them bringing the compression back up to the point that the weak spark was no longer able to properly fire the plug.

The electric start vs pull start problem i think i have figured out as well!

The pull start gives a longer pause between pulses, looking at a test light connected to the pulse generator output and pull starting it i couldn't get it to flash as fast as it would with the electric start no matter how hard and fast i pulled. You would think that this would mean that electric would work better than the pull start on a weak CDI but its exact opposite. The longer dwell time of the pulses when using the pull start allows the weakening components in the CDI to catch up, mainly the capacitors is my guess, so that it gets sufficient voltage built up to fire. With the electric starter its a quicker on/off cycle that it can't keep up and only throws an occasional spark.

Again this is only my hypothesis, but watching a test light on the output of the pulse generator and a spark tester inline with the plug this is the conclusion i came up with.

Thanks very interesting, the CDI in this trike does start the others though with the electric start.
I am sure I read some where that there is a neutral safety for the electric start so that it cannot be started in gear with the electric start maybe this could be the problem?:wondering
This engine was starting fine with the electric start before I removed it a few months ago to change a cam chain after I reinstalled it no spark with the electric start?:confused:

[kb0nly]

Does the neutral indicator light come on? Check the neutral switch terminal, the gray wire to the nut type terminal above the sub-trans shifter. It should be grounded, continuity to ground on that terminal, when in neutral. If not then its either not in neutral or the neutral safety switch is bad. If you want to test it otherwise you could make sure the shifter is in neutral then clip on a jumper from the terminal to a frame ground to keep the gray wire grounded, the neutral indicator should come on and the electric start should work as well as the ignition.

[GTO]

Does the neutral indicator light come on? Check the neutral switch terminal, the gray wire to the nut type terminal above the sub-trans shifter. It should be grounded, continuity to ground on that terminal, when in neutral. If not then its either not in neutral or the neutral safety switch is bad. If you want to test it otherwise you could make sure the shifter is in neutral then clip on a jumper from the terminal to a frame ground to keep the gray wire grounded, the neutral indicator should come on and the electric start should work as well as the ignition.

Neutral Indicator light is working.
Isn't it the green wire with red tracer?
Grey wire is for the reverse is it not?

[kb0nly]

Oops... Yes you are correct. I need to stop posting when i am tired!!! But yes the wire connected to that terminal.

[GTO]

I did ground the neutral wire and the light does come on.
If it is a bad neutral safety switch isn't it a mission to sort it out?

[kb0nly]

If its the switch, that is if you test it with a meter and it never grounds the wire then yes it is a pain to get to. The Neutral safety switch is towards the bottom of the case on that side, down between the flywheel and the sub-trans. I am not sure you could get to it without pulling apart the entire left side. I know for sure you would have to pull the recoil, the flywheel, the electric start and the entire left case, then you might have enough clearance to get to it without having to pull the sub-trans off as well but i don't know for sure as i haven't had to do one.

It's in a tight location, if you look at the neutral indicator and the shifter you will see the wire coming down for the neutral switch between the left case and the sub-trans, follow that wire down and you will see it, the neutral safety switch is installed into the case.

[GTO]

If its the switch, that is if you test it with a meter and it never grounds the wire then yes it is a pain to get to. The Neutral safety switch is towards the bottom of the case on that side, down between the flywheel and the sub-trans. I am not sure you could get to it without pulling apart the entire left side. I know for sure you would have to pull the recoil, the flywheel, the electric start and the entire left case, then you might have enough clearance to get to it without having to pull the sub-trans off as well but i don't know for sure as i haven't had to do one.

It's in a tight location, if you look at the neutral indicator and the shifter you will see the wire coming down for the neutral switch between the left case and the sub-trans, follow that wire down and you will see it, the neutral safety switch is installed into the case.

Thanks next time I am at our holiday place I will check it with a meter, I am not sure if feel like stripping it though if it is the switch!

[kb0nly]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/REVERSE-INDICATOR-SWITCH-84-ATC200ES-ATC-200-ES-BIG-RED-/160554764953?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item2561cf4a99&vxp=mtr

There is an example of what it looks like. The reverse switch is easier, thats on the top, the one i mentioned before that has the nut type terminal on the top of the sub trans, that one just screws out and looks like a spark plug really. The neutral safety switch is pushed into the case with an o-ring to seal it and a keeper that holds it.

[GTO]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/REVERSE-INDICATOR-SWITCH-84-ATC200ES-ATC-200-ES-BIG-RED-/160554764953?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item2561cf4a99&vxp=mtr

There is an example of what it looks like. The reverse switch is easier, thats on the top, the one i mentioned before that has the nut type terminal on the top of the sub trans, that one just screws out and looks like a spark plug really. The neutral safety switch is pushed into the case with an o-ring to seal it and a keeper that holds it.

Thanks for the link, nice to see what it looks like, I like the map the seller has on the areas he has shipped too.
4 items to South Africa!
But the transfer case has to be removed first right?

[kb0nly]

You would have to look at it, not really 100% sure if you could get it out without much teardown or not. I haven't had time to go look at mine.

[408Fairmont]

I know this is an old post, but it should be bumped. Thanks for the tips, I am going to try this on my 84 big red, the CDI is done, and I was just wondering why the hell they were so much more when I found this post.

Ill see if it works soon, I have another CDI from our 83.

[kb0nly]

Welcome!

The problem is they made the special one year CDI for the 84, thats what really made it hard to find and expensive. I have been running my cheap aftermarket CDI without problems.

[GTO]

Same here I have x4 200ES's I converted them all to Chinese CDI units a year and half ago and have had no problems since then.

[Dave_D]

Subscribed might have to do mine

[coolpool]

Just lost spark on my trusty 84 BR. Parked it one day fine, wouldn't start the next. Thought i'd seen a weak spark once? New plug didn't do it either as well as checking the boot connection. I subscribed to this thread a long time ago for the day i needed it, thanks kb, Time to go shopping!

[kb0nly]

Just lost spark on my trusty 84 BR. Parked it one day fine, wouldn't start the next. Thought i'd seen a weak spark once? New plug didn't do it either as well as checking the boot connection. I subscribed to this thread a long time ago for the day i needed it, thanks kb, Time to go shopping!

Sounds like how my CDI died... I started it and moved it across my yard to my shed to change the oil, came back later that afternoon and no spark and wouldn't start. Took the CDI off and smacked it hard on the concrete a few times and then it started right up. A few days later i was replacing the CDI... LOL

[honda200x1987]

Those big reds are bullet proof! Quick tip and it may have already been said, NEVER jump start your bike with jumper cables, that will damage the electrical system including the CDI unit, most common cause.

[kb0nly]

Those big reds are bullet proof! Quick tip and it may have already been said, NEVER jump start your bike with jumper cables, that will damage the electrical system including the CDI unit, most common cause.

Actually.... Jump starting can not, and will not, hurt the CDI. The CDI is in no way connected to the DC side of the system. The ignition has its own separate coil in the flywheel, it never crosses over with the lighting and starting side of things. Applying voltage to the battery to jump start it can damage the rectifier/regulator however, but it can't do anything to the ignition at all.

[Dave_D]

Oops. I've started mine with a booster box already lol
Might cut that out...

[kb0nly]

Oops. I've started mine with a booster box already lol
Might cut that out...

You won't hurt it none.. I have jumped many of them with my jump box. The worst you can do is hurt the regulator/rectifier but with a booster/jump box your right at normal battery voltage anyway. If you jump start it off a vehicle with jumper cables you could increase the voltage too high to the point it blows the regulator. Usually when you put the load of a dead battery on a modern vehicle, be it the vehicles battery was dead or you connected a dead battery with jumper cables and therefore pull the vehicles battery voltage low it adjusts to bring the battery back up. I have seen some modern vehicles with ECM driven alternators make it up to 14.8v until the battery comes back up to full charge. Pretty interesting how the manufacturers have built this feature in rather than just a dumb system with an alternator doing more work then it needs to.

I have an old GM AC Delco one wire alternator thats bolted up to a small 7hp Briggs that was a water pump in its previous life and has a handle on the top to make it portable. Its not light but its not overly heavy. If my jump box can't get the job done or i need some more amperage i just fire that up, it has a set of jumper cables permanently wired to the alternators output. Thats good for about 80-100a, good fast battery charger that only needs gas! Damn handy when the power is out.

[honda200x1987]

That's good to hear,I guess it would be safe to just use a battery charger instead of jumpers anyway. Maybe it was just a coincidence my CDI failed after I jump started it with my car battery?
Actually.... Jump starting can not, and will not, hurt the CDI. The CDI is in no way connected to the DC side of the system. The ignition has its own separate coil in the flywheel, it never crosses over with the lighting and starting side of things. Applying voltage to the battery to jump start it can damage the rectifier/regulator however, but it can't do anything to the ignition at all.

[kb0nly]

That's good to hear,I guess it would be safe to just use a battery charger instead of jumpers anyway. Maybe it was just a coincidence my CDI failed after I jump started it with my car battery?

The safest is to be patient and put on a charger and leave it alone, even better is a smart charger or battery tender with a max charge rate of 1-2 amps. It will take a better portion of the day to slowly charge it but its much better for the battery than a fast jolt and quick charge. I have a battery tender on my 200ES, its plugged in whenever its not running, that slow charges at a 1a rate until it reaches full voltage then it trickle charges it at a couple hundred milliamp to keep it topped off. Good investment if you have stuff sitting with batteries in them. I have another one in my other shed that can connect up to four batteries to it, one is my lawn tractor the other is my snowblower. The other two ports are spares for when i need to top off a battery.

Probably just a coincidence your CDI died. It happens! LOL

[oscarmayer]

http://www.vintageconnections.com/

They have the male and female latching connector with crimps for both, $3 for the pair. Just found my new supplier for these!


outstanding source of parts sir! thank you a ton!!! you just saved me a ton of time!!! kudos!!!

[kb0nly]

Your welcome! I have bought a ton of stuff from Vintage Connections now, all seems to be good quality.

[coolpool]

Thanks to kb's research, I've ordered an aftermarket CDI with the proper 84200es connector off eBay for around $65.00 US. I'll update once it's here and installed.

[Hunter79]

Sounds like how my CDI died... I started it and moved it across my yard to my shed to change the oil, came back later that afternoon and no spark and wouldn't start. Took the CDI off and smacked it hard on the concrete a few times and then it started right up. A few days later i was replacing the CDI... LOL

KB, how do I take the CDI off? I would imagine I'm having the same trouble right now. My trike would run for a while. Then, it wouldn't start. It might start and run for an hour or so, then nothing. Next day, I might get it to run for 10 minutes, then it'd die and nothing. Now it doesn't start at all. I'd like to try this fix on mine but I have no idea how to take the CDI off, much less buy that stuff you've said to buy and put it back together again. Also, I've read so many things about this CDI I'm not sure who said what. I know that mine has the reverse inhibitor thing where it won't start if it's in gear. I've read somewhere that going to this aftermarket CDI will let it start in gear. Is this true? Sorry if it's been said in this thread, I've looked and can't find it again.

Please help me with this. I'd sure appreciate it!

[Hunter79]

KB, how do I take the CDI off? I would imagine I'm having the same trouble right now. My trike would run for a while. Then, it wouldn't start. It might start and run for an hour or so, then nothing. Next day, I might get it to run for 10 minutes, then it'd die and nothing. Now it doesn't start at all. I'd like to try this fix on mine but I have no idea how to take the CDI off, much less buy that stuff you've said to buy and put it back together again. Also, I've read so many things about this CDI I'm not sure who said what. I know that mine has the reverse inhibitor thing where it won't start if it's in gear. I've read somewhere that going to this aftermarket CDI will let it start in gear. Is this true? Sorry if it's been said in this thread, I've looked and can't find it again.

Please help me with this. I'd sure appreciate it!

I brought this up again so maybe someone would see it. Thanks!

[Hunter79]

kbOnly? Is he/she still a member?

[kb0nly]

Hey i'm here! Just life keeping me busy and away from the computer... LOL

Disabling the reverse lockout or an aftermarket CDI will not let it start in gear as far as the electric start is concerned, however it will pull start in gear because the neutral safety switch only prevents the electric started solenoid from being engaged.

The CDI is just mounted in a rubber sleeve thats pushed onto a tab welded onto the frame, it just pulls right off.

[Hunter79]

Hey i'm here! Just life keeping me busy and away from the computer... LOL

Disabling the reverse lockout or an aftermarket CDI will not let it start in gear as far as the electric start is concerned, however it will pull start in gear because the neutral safety switch only prevents the electric started solenoid from being engaged.

The CDI is just mounted in a rubber sleeve thats pushed onto a tab welded onto the frame, it just pulls right off.

So, am I reading this right? I won't have the neutral light on mine anymore with the new CDI? Is that right? I guess what I'm asking is, what will I lose with the new CDI? What will stay the same? Thanks again!

[Hunter79]

Well, I got the CDI on and it's running finally. Thanks so much KB for all of the help, as well as everyone else whom helped me. I hope it continues to run like it is now!

[mendoAu]

Help..kbOnly (cdi guru). Finally got this CDI (http://www.ebay.com/itm/381395993441?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT) picked up from the post office. It's for my 84 200ES. Thought maybe it would just hook right up it being a round 6 pin. Fits fine but...Here's my problem, trans in nuetral/low forward, new cdi installed, key on, neutral light on, NO starter action when ya push the button. Take out new cdi and the starter works. So after re-reading this whole thread could it just be as simple as removing/cutting the grey wire? Rather ask before doing something stupid and cutting things up. Also I don't have a pull starter...maybe someday I'll fix and reinstall it.

[oscarmayer]

try removing the grey wire yes.
you have to make sure the aftermarket CDI is the same pin outs as the stocker. (usually 1 or 2 are different). that could also be part of the issue.

[mendoAu]

Yep, I removed the grey wire and the starter button now works. I'm still having trouble with identifing which pin is for what on this new cdi. I'll get back to it in a couple of days.

[oscarmayer]

k
good luck! the place you got it from may have a wiring diagram for it if you ask them for one. does the trike run now?

[mendoAu]

Yep, it runs with the old cdi installed..but with a weak spark and a slight miss. At times it losses spark and will not start. Next time it works so I'm reluctant to take it far. Just don't want to break down in the woods. The new cdi (round 6 pin) is supposed to work for Honda ATC 200M / ATC 200S / ATC 200X 1983 1984 1985. Tried several different ways but nothing seems to work. It's possible that I damaged the new cdi with having it wired wrong. Just for grins I ordered a new cdi (china....5 bucks) with a 5 pin rectangular plug. kbOnly posted the link for the wiring for these units ....so. Can always use it for a back-up.

[oscarmayer]

good luck.

[mendoAu]

Up-date. Got the square six pin chinese cdi ( http://www.ebay.com/itm/260692406610?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT ) and the

" Vintage Connections
(510) 790-1229
admin@vintageconnections.com
Your purchase
White Nylon Latching Connector Pair, 6-pin M/F shells + 7 each M/F OEM 2.8mm spades (Qty 2)
$6.00
Item #HP6L Pair, White "

And all is well in the kingdom. This 84 200es runs great now.
And

[Crazyktmmatt]

Can other bikes cdi's be converted too?

[mendoAu]

I would say yes. It's just a matter of getting the right wire to match the pin on the cdi. Like earlier stated the 84 200es and a few others have an "oddball" round six pin connector.

[deejaycee_2000]

Hi Guys, I am shopping around for a Chinese CDI for my 83' ATC200E and see that you get 2 versions ... a AC and a DC version, which one in the correct one?

[GTO]

Hi Guys, I am shopping around for a Chinese CDI for my 83' ATC200E and see that you get 2 versions ... a AC and a DC version, which one in the correct one?

Hi Dirk
Here is a pic of the wiring of the CDI(I wanted to send it to you but there doesn't seem to be a way to attach it in a PM)
Regards
Stephen

[ericmreimer]

Looking big for a good source for a 6 pin CDI. The old links don't work on this thread. Kbonly still around? I'm fighting a no spark issue on my 200es project bike. I did the swap on my other 4 years ago and it's running beautifully.

[kb0nly]

Looking big for a good source for a 6 pin CDI. The old links don't work on this thread. Kbonly still around? I'm fighting a no spark issue on my 200es project bike. I did the swap on my other 4 years ago and it's running beautifully.

I know a lot of the links are dead after many years... The CDI on the DR ATV page still works, so that link also still works.

http://http://dratv.com/cdiunatseeap.html

So anyone coming back to this discussion that's the best place i can point you to. Most of the eBay links i had are dead now. I am working on digging up some current listings and sellers on eBay that will also work. My CDI died today on my daily driver 200ES, but that cheap chinese one lasted 7 years so i won't complain too much! Luckily i still had a spare in my toolbox, but its been sitting for 7 years waiting for its turn. So i better find some more spares just in case. If i find another source off eBay that i buy and test and they work i will try and get that info posted here as well.

Also, to answer another old post on this discussion... If there is a choice of AC or DC listed for the CDI then you want AC, as its AC from the ignition stator to the CDI, no DC conversion for the ignition on these. That's another thing i ran into when mine died today, i have a box full of CDI's that i tested at one time when i was posting this originally. Some of the ones i have turned out to be a DC CDI with a green connector shell on them, others with a brown connector shell were AC, and some with a white connector shell were either AC or DC depending on what the seller said they were. So i have some that won't run, i have some that idle but won't throttle up, and i have a couple that only fire every other cycle, so it sounds like a hit and miss engine... LOL

I will say it again though, just to be clear, if you want one that for sure works, get it from DR ATV, his works, and every one that i bought from him to repair dead trikes have worked flawlessly. If you want to gamble on cheaper ones then the best options i can currently find on eBay will hopefully be listed in a few days as i have time to sort through the listings. But until i get them myself and test them i can't guarantee they work, and by the time i post up links they could be sold out or changed. Its a crap shoot on these unless your buying from a dedicated source.

[ATC King]

Beatrice Cycle (Dr. ATV) also sells the square CDI connectors, so anyone with a round style can convert them. Wire cutting is completely unnecessary too, because all one has to do is release the terminals and insert them into the new square connector. I done this on my 200ES years ago, two minute job if the tank is already off.

The only thing given up is the reverse interlock. The electric start will now work while in reverse. Just put that wire into the empty connector slot, and it doesn't connect to anything on the square CDIs.
http://dratv.com/cdicopa409.html
https://sep.yimg.com/ca/I/dratv_2272_76423001

Some information from their site.

https://sep.yimg.com/ca/I/dratv_2272_28500555
https://sep.yimg.com/ca/I/dratv_2272_28500555

https://sep.yimg.com/ay/dratv/china-5-pin-cdi-asignment-3.gif
https://sep.yimg.com/ay/dratv/china-5-pin-cdi-asignment-3.gif


Something on the AC/DC CDIs is they all operate on AC. The DC ones are physically larger because they have the components inside to invert DC to AC. A DC CDI is powered by a battery, not an ignition source on the stator, but both they are triggered the same way. DC CDIs are more prone to failure because of the extra components and heat from the inverter and that's personal experience. Luckily, the 200ES only uses the DC system for the lights and charging, with the ignition being a totally independent AC system. The charging system on the 200ES is rather anemic, but both it and the ignition system are very reliable.

[MrConcdid]

Great article. But no where does it say the cheap Chinese cdi model number. Yes DrATV sells some for $19.95 and i ha e purchsed from him. But which cheap ebay cdi to get. Are all AC 6 pin cdi boxes the same?
Can someone post a link to the correct cdi that fits the end plugs that are mentioned in this thread.
Thanks
MrC.

[ATC King]

The thing about buying from Dr ATV is they have taken the guesswork out of buying low priced, a non-OEM CDI. Buying 10 CDIs from 10 different sellers on Ebay, will probably give just as many different results and maybe one of them will work as good as OEM. It's a crapshoot I personally know and PS2fixer has posted his results of playing the same game. No doubt others have done the same.

There is no part number, per se, for Chinese CDIs. They have a Forrest Gump, box of chocolates randomness, unless coming from the same supplier and en masse.

As for the square connector they sell, just about all of the aftermarket CDIs will fit, along with the OEM Honda ones.

ON the DrATV website, they actually refer to this thread for one of the CDIs they sell.http://dratv.com/cdiunatseeap.html

DrAtv also has the round style plug CDI for a 200ES, but they are currently out of stock. The OEM Honda CDI is still available too, 30410-969-013 and ~$140

[MrConcdid]

Hey guys, just wanted to report, I received my plug and Chinese CDI from Beatrice yesterday for my 84 200es big red "Junkyard dog" build, using the chart above I removed the round plug reinstalled the wires in the new square plug and plunged it in. turned the key, pushed the button verified good strong blue spark. screwed in the plug and she fired right up, no hesitation at all.
I purchased a spare CDI and plug, Y'all know I will need another soon. total with shipping was right at $50. I am very pleased no guess work, the old CDI was hit or miss, very aggravating. Thank again for the information. I did install the gray wire into the new plug, I know it doesn't go anywhere but it looks better all wires terminated.
Thanks,
MrC.

[brobones]

Does anyone have any current places to purchase a product like what Dr. ATV used to sell? He no longer is selling for the 200 ES which is what I have. Any info would be appreciated. TIA.
Bro

[shortline10]

Save yourself a big headache and just buy a new OEM one . It’s pricey but will last another 30 years .

https://www.partzilla.com/product/honda/30410-969-003?ref=ebc51ffa772c7fecbe2ec7ace1fe4b7bf33bf6dc

[ATC King]

Like shortline10 said, just buy the OEM. Avoid a mandarin headache.

They're still available, which is pretty awesome.

[brobones]

Thanks guys...