Any front brake upgrades for 200x?

[GO OVRIT]

Mine is an 86 200x. I use my front brake 10 times as much as my back, and I'd really like some more stopping power. Has anybody used a different master cylinder or caliper and had success? Actually it just hit me that I may have used one of my old 350x m/c when I redid the 200x... I can't remember.

[yamaha driver]

i saw someone on here a a while back that reground there brake disk and it added so much more stopping power.

[Jason125m]

You only have as much stopping power as you do traction.

[GO OVRIT]

I don't think I'm anywhere near the issue of traction being a concern. Are you talking about scuffing the rotor to get rid of any glazing?

[yamaha driver]

no someone took somekind of grinder,sander i forgot what it was at the moment and redid the complete surface to make some grooves for it to catch better

[whyzee]

You should be able to lock up your front wheel on pavement with the stock setup if it is working properly.
Try cleaning the rotor, new pads and bleeding them.

[deathman53]

agreed, my front brake works awesome, but the front tire doesn't get enough traction to use it. If it endos on pavement, your problem isn't the brake setup.

[fabiodriven]

Like the last two guys said, there really is no need to upgrade the front brake on that machine if it's working properly. You may want to consider having the rotor re-surfaced.

[bigred44]

I would make sure everything you have now is working properly before changing anything. It is very common to overlook maintenance on your brakes. Pull your caliper off and push the piston back with a c-clamp and grease the pins when you put it back together. This is just to free up the seals if they are sticking some. Clean and inspect all parts ensuring that your pads are still good. Put it back together and pump your brakes some and then bleed the line out adding new fluid as needed to get some fresh fluid into the system. If you are still having issues you can replace the m/c with one from pretty much any quad or dirtbike. You can also rebuild the caliper with new seals from bike bandit. Hope this helps and good luck.

[El Camexican]

I’ve heard that bead-blasting disks is a great way to deglaze them. Myself I use an "el cheapo" brake disk resurfacing method that you might find handy, but only if you are comfortable using a grinder. Ultimately I chuck up the disk in a lathe and then put a 4.5” or 5” flap-wheel disk on a small grinder. 120 grit or finer. Turn the disk in the lathe as slowly as possible and then bring the sanding pad (flap-wheel) evenly to the surface of the disk and gently let it ride against the disk for a few seconds. You would want to stop and see what you’ve done very often until you get the hang of this, but keep in mind you are not going to get rid of deep scratches, nor would you want to as removing a bunch of material from the disk in this manner would warp it and render it useless. All you are wanting to do is deglaze the disk and give the pads something to bite into.

I’ve done this with the disk mounted on the vehicle (cars, trucks, bikes, whatever) by having a friend turn the wheel or disk while I operate the grinder. Once you get the hang of it you can make some nice cross hatch patterns by holding the grinder at different angles.

As far as using your front brake "10 X more" than your rear I'd suggest you try that rear a little more. A three wheeler is the one vehicle I can think of that has a more braking power at the rear than it does at the front.

[GO OVRIT]

Looks like my system isn't up to par. I rebuilt the caliper about a year ago. I don't ever remember it being any better. The only time I can lock it up is rolling backwards downhill. I do a lot of flat track style riding and most of the times that I need too brake, my foot isn't in position to use the rear brake.

[fabiodriven]

A three wheeler is the one vehicle I can think of that has a more braking power at the rear than it does at the front.

That is a very good point!

[Dirtcrasher]

Get a new SS hose, the OEM rubber hoses expand and don't apply enough pressure. Also, run OEM or expensive pads, don't by the cheap pads.....

[El Camexican]

That is a very good point!

I guess one could say the same about snowmobiles as well :)

You drive a sport bike, so you know the drill about front VS rear braking i.e. 99.99 front and .01 rear (at least when braking linearly). I find myself laying hard into the front brakes of my trikes and dirt bike every time I haven't used them for a bit, then it dawns on me that rear brakes are the way to stop a trike as long as you have the sense to get off the brake when they start to get sideways long enough to let the chassis correct itself.

Just an FYI: to all you new/young guys out there, the best way to get good at anything like braking or steering is to screw around (I call it practice) in none life threatening situations, so that when it comes time to make a panic stop, or turn hard its second “nature” and not second “guessing” the latter of which is often done from a hospital bed.
.

[4x4van]

Believe it or not, you do have more braking power in your front brakes than rear (yes, even on a 3-wheeler). The difference is smaller on a 3-wheeler than on a 2- or 4-wheeler, but it is still true. Whereas with a bike it may be 90-10, on a 3-wheeler it's still at least 75-25. You can brake hard with the rear wheels (on any surface) and it will have very little effect on your speed compared to hard braking with the front. In fact, using only the rear brakes hard on a 3-wheeler will always make your bike go straight ahead...period. Not exactly what you want if you are in a turn or need to avoid an obstacle, is it? Unfortunately, you need the skill to actually use the front brake to it's full potential, something most people have never mastered. That applies to motorcyles, as well. Ultimately, using both in combination is the best for stopping/slowing quickly in all situations. As soon as you break the rear tires loose (with brakes), you've lost control & traction with those tires. Just like locking up the tires in a car, you are no longer slowing down, and you are no longer in control of your direction.

In the dunes, with paddles, you can actually pick up speed using only the rear brakes (paddles have NO traction in the reverse direction!). Sometimes, on an off-camber turn, feathering the front brake while also getting on the throttle can break the rear tires loose and help get it to turn uphill. Coming to a fast stop? Front & rear (mostly front). Stopping/slowing in a turn? Front & rear (balanced). Descending a steep hill? Front & rear (balanced, rear only will cause the bike to swap ends).

I've been riding 3-wheelers since 1982, and motorcycles since the early 70's., and there is no situation that I can think of where you are better off using only the rear brakes on a 3-wheeler. Breaking the rear end loose in order to purposely slide it sideways? Nope. Even then, you can do that much more effectively and with more control by using the front brake and the throttle at the same time. You've just gotta master the technique.

[110klt]

Had my new buy out today, a 84 200X. Hit the front brakes and locked up the front tire in the dirt and slid it about 4-6 feet. So in this case a stock bike with stock brakes and pads will lock up the brakes just fine.

[El Camexican]

Believe it or not, you do have more braking power in your front brakes than rear (yes, even on a 3-wheeler). The difference is smaller on a 3-wheeler than on a 2- or 4-wheeler, but it is still true. Whereas with a bike it may be 90-10, on a 3-wheeler it's still at least 75-25. You can brake hard with the rear wheels (on any surface) and it will have very little effect on your speed compared to hard braking with the front. In fact, using only the rear brakes hard on a 3-wheeler will always make your bike go straight ahead...period. Not exactly what you want if you are in a turn or need to avoid an obstacle, is it? Unfortunately, you need the skill to actually use the front brake to it's full potential, something most people have never mastered. That applies to motorcyles, as well. Ultimately, using both in combination is the best for stopping/slowing quickly in all situations. As soon as you break the rear tires loose (with brakes), you've lost control & traction with those tires. Just like locking up the tires in a car, you are no longer slowing down, and you are no longer in control of your direction.

In the dunes, with paddles, you can actually pick up speed using only the rear brakes (paddles have NO traction in the reverse direction!). Sometimes, on an off-camber turn, feathering the front brake while also getting on the throttle can break the rear tires loose and help get it to turn uphill. Coming to a fast stop? Front & rear (mostly front). Stopping/slowing in a turn? Front & rear (balanced). Descending a steep hill? Front & rear (balanced, rear only will cause the bike to swap ends).

I've been riding 3-wheelers since 1982, and motorcycles since the early 70's., and there is no situation that I can think of where you are better off using only the rear brakes on a 3-wheeler. Breaking the rear end loose in order to purposely slide it sideways? Nope. Even then, you can do that much more effectively and with more control by using the front brake and the throttle at the same time. You've just gotta master the technique.

I totally agree with you that using both brakes simultaneously is almost always the fastest way to stop, but separating this discussion into just bikes and trikes I’d say the 90/10 rule for street bikes changed to about 99/1 when the first dual front disc bike came out. My opinion is that the rear brake on a modern sport bike rear is practically useless for all but the most aggressive of riders but it can still be used for braking the rear wheel loose in a turn when a slide is desired and that might be one of the few times you would use only the rear brake on a sport bike. A loss of control panic situation for most of us, but not in the hands of a top level racer. Most street riders would be well served to try and avoid using the rear brake as much as possible. As far as dirt bikes go I use my rear brake a lot. Locking it up in a sharp turn is the fastest way to change direction when going downhill.

As far as three wheelers go I have to go for a ride with the sole intention of testing what you said about 75/25 braking. I’m not sure how I’ll test it, but if anyone has any ideas please post them. In theory I’ll agree that the weight still transfers to the front creating a better place to get stopping grip, but the reciprocating motion of all that rubber, the heavy axle and two rims at the rear needs to be tamed and that’s a lot of work for the front brake.

I have little or no sand experience, but I don’t see how you could “pick up speed” when applying only the rear brakes unless you were going downhill. Maybe you meant that you lose the engine braking and just don’t slow down as fast once the wheels lock up?

As far as trikes going straight under rear wheel braking I totally agree that turning ability deminishes greatly, but once those wheels lock up I find it hard if not impossible to hold a straight line if it starts bouncing, but if I let off it seems to immediately track straight again. Like I said, I need to go out and test some of this as you have me second guessing a few things I’ve assumed for about as long as you’ve been riding :beer

[fabiodriven]

I'm thinking the rears on a trike are at least 50% of the stopping power. I'm reminded of this almost every time I ride because I have the tendency to grab a handful of front brake just being used to riding my street bike. After a few minutes I usually figure out I'm not stopping fast enough and I start grabbing the rears more. I'm all in for the rear having more stopping power on a trike.

[El Camexican]

I'm thinking the rears on a trike are at least 50% of the stopping power. I'm reminded of this almost every time I ride because I have the tendency to grab a handful of front brake just being used to riding my street bike. After a few minutes I usually figure out I'm not stopping fast enough and I start grabbing the rears more. I'm all in for the rear having more stopping power on a trike.

I want to test this in some sort of semi-undisputable way. I too think there is at least 50%+ of the potential stopping power at the rear, especially on my drum front Tri-Moto. Given that there are no longer any magazines writers that will do this I think we are on our own. I’m thinking that I can put my GPS on the trike to set the speed and then just measure off the stopping distance from a marked point. I may not be the best guy out there for this but I can be consistent and both my trikes have good brakes at both ends. Any other ideas? I can film this too if I can get my daughter involved. Should be fun.

[GO OVRIT]

That sounds like an interesting test. My opinion though is that there is no set ratio that would cover all trikes. They are too diferent. The type of(or lack of ) suspension, the wheelbase, the amount of rake, the front to rear ride height, etc... all play a part. The way you ride does as well. If your in the tank its different than if you're sitting back on the seat. I know I use the brakes different on my Yamaha 200's than on my 200x. Regardless of which end actually has more stopping power, I'll still use the front more for the type of riding that sparked my original question.

[Husky250]

I'm going to chime in on the side of the front brake having the more stopping power, even on my drum braked 225dx. When we bought it, it had no front brake. We rode it like that for a couple years. Once we got around to putting a front brake back on it it was night and day!
Now to the original question that was asked about upgrades to the front brake...... Sure you can lock up the front brake with the stock set-up. That's a good thing but locking the front wheel isn't always the only question. Brake modulation and feel can be different with different calipers. I could always "Lock " up the front wheel on my 92 Beta but once I got my newer Scorpa (2008) I realized how much better the front brake was. Both would easily lock up but both had different modulation and different feel. Heck, it could be a question of a braided steel line and a newer more modern master cylender.

[GO OVRIT]

I'm going to put a braided line on it. It makes a lot of sense that a 26 year old rubber brake line might swell some. Its funny...I've had this 200x since 2001 and just finally got the rear brake working last year and now I'm wanting more power from the front brake

[Husky250]

Keep us posted, I'm rebuilding an '86 and love the input! My 200x is actually a 300ex from the swingarm bolt back with a slightly modded TW200 front caliper mated to its rear. We will see how this works out. Eventually may end up getting a 300ex rear brake to go on it but who knows. The front is still stock.

[El Camexican]

I'm going to put a braided line on it. It makes a lot of sense that a 26 year old rubber brake line might swell some. Its funny...I've had this 200x since 2001 and just finally got the rear brake working last year and now I'm wanting more power from the front brake

I can't say enough good things about braided lines. I rode for most of my life thinking stock lines were fine, but after making the switch on a vehicle I'd ridden for years with rubber lines and feeling the difference I was hooked. Every bike I own has them at both ends now. I will also add that stock Japanese master cylinders of yesteryear were no heck to start with and 25 years later the rubber seals and sight windows are all crapping out. You can buy modern take-offs from newer dirt bikes cheap on eBay and get custom braided hoses from places like Spiegler for less than you might think. Personally I like the Brembos from parted out KTM’s. They are small, adjustable, work great and it add a super trick look to bars. One last thing: Change your brake fluid every two years, or anytime it ceases to be clear in color. Same goes for your cars and trucks. Aside from getting the best possible braking from your system it removes the water that eats away at the metal parts.

[Aka_am]

Ok I have never had working brakes on any of my trikes. I can't bleed them :(

If you hit the front brakes, the front end dives down putting more pressure/weight on the brake system. Using the rear does the opposite but way less dive. I've always used the rear brake on dirtbikes. If I use the front, I high side? and crash. (I dont ride dirtbikes for this reason and I can never touch and get that balance right.)

[fabiodriven]

Somebody needs to take some riding and wrenching classes, not saying who...

[El Camexican]

Ok I have never had working brakes on any of my trikes. I can't bleed them :(

If you hit the front brakes, the front end dives down putting more pressure/weight on the brake system. Using the rear does the opposite but way less dive. I've always used the rear brake on dirtbikes. If I use the front, I high side? and crash. (I dont ride dirtbikes for this reason and I can never touch and get that balance right.)

Seriously Aka_am you really should get with some guys in the know and get some tips. You'll have a lot more fun and will live longer when your rides are in good working order. You'll also learn what terms like "High Side" mean. Don't feel bad, a lot of guys still think it refers to riding around with a joint in their mouth.:rolleyes:

[4x4van]

I have little or no sand experience, but I don’t see how you could “pick up speed” when applying only the rear brakes unless you were going downhill. Maybe you meant that you lose the engine braking and just don’t slow down as fast once the wheels lock up? Perhaps "pick up speed" is a bit too much, other than downhill, but locking the rears up with paddles IS the same as not applying the brakes at all! They are literally like ice!


As far as trikes going straight under rear wheel braking I totally agree that turning ability deminishes greatly, but once those wheels lock up I find it hard if not impossible to hold a straight line if it starts bouncing, but if I let off it seems to immediately track straight again. Yup, the whole point is to never lock them up in the first place. Just like on a car, once you lock the wheels, you've lost control of direction and speed.