A little ice racing setup advice for a prospective new ice racer??

[RIDE-RED 250r]

OK, so before I clutter up Riverrat's ice racer build thread I figured I might post a thread inquiring on some setup advice...

1: tires... I'm thinking 18's, but I prefer to stick with my 9" rims that I have extra of, plus I don't want to gear down too much. So, anybody running 20's?

2: rear suspension... Not really looking to go all out and have my trike dedicated totally to the ice, so I'm thinking I can back off the pre-load on my stock rear shock to help slam her down a bit? Good idea? Bad idea?

3: Front suspension... I'm thinking about swapping in a set of '85 fork springs minus the short top springs to lower the front. Good idea/bad idea?

Just wondering if I'm going in the right direction. As I said, I'm not looking to permanently set my R up for ice as I do alot of riding on Tug Hill in summer. Just looking for some quick easy adjustments to enhance it's ability on the ice oval and have some fun with you guys at next years Ice-Fest. Any other tips or suggestions?

I know I didn't list studs, but that goes without saying.. ;)

Thanks.. :beer

[brapp]

well first of fmines a trail r i can switch over i run 18'ds and go up a tooth on the front sprocket. and if its a 250f be careful how low you make the front end the studded tire will hit the pipe so a 10 inch rim and a smaller front tire would be required.

[ringdingrider]

just a lil trick i learned from my pa. if you have a trail machine n just want to do a few laps on the ice and need to lower yer machine in the rear.....ratchet strap the ass end down. simple cheap and effective. ive done it on my trx250rs. and i dont remember what size tires i ran, but here they only allow trikes in the rubber classes so everyone would run the old pro wedges or now hoosiers seem to be the hot ticket.

you really dont need to change a whole lot on yer machine. just learn how it handles n how to use the powerband on the ice. setup is important but ice racin is won n lost by a how a rider handles his machine. so practice practice practice

[eddie pettengil]

Personally I think your going in the wrong direction. Here is why.
#1, go with the 18's, chin shin c826 are around $50 each, 8 inch steel wheels can be found for $25 each. The reason why, the 20 will give you less wheel spin and adds height to the rear.

#2, the rear shock idea works but you really are not going to drop it down that far. for about $60 you can get a lowering link.

#3, removing that top spring in the 85 forks spring is great for getting you low but, it has 2 awful effects that you dont want. Anybody know what they are?

for $250 you can be setup with everything you need to be competitive and low. if you want to just go have fun, leave it how it is and buy some 1/2 inch long studs and use them on any tire you want.

[RIDE-RED 250r]

Thanks for the insight Eddie. $250 is actually less than I thought it might cost to "do it right" so to speak. This is the exact advice I am looking for! Thank you! :beer

After thinking about your question on point #3 you made... My guess is one of the bad effects might be the fork dropping and slamming when in a wheelie? And the other possibly the tire being able to contact the fender when bottoming??

On the rear lowering link.. Am I correct to assume it is reversible for converting back to summertime gravel road riding?

[zmpolaristech]

Front end dive and all around lack of front tire traction...that's what results from a "soft" front fork spring setup.

Eddie is right thow, DEFINATELY go with the 18s, and preferably on 8" wheels. 8" wheels will allow more sidewall flex with the 18" tire, which equates in better drive, threw, and out of the corner. I run the C826s now, but when I started out, I was running a set of 18" duro holeshot ripoffs with 3 screws in each lug, AND IT WORKED JUST AS WELL AS THE 826s. For the front, just slide the forks up a few inches in the triple trees. Go with a lowering link in the rear, turning the spring preload all the way down (soft shock) will have neg affects as well, but stay away from the "ridgid strut" idea, I haven't seen that work real well for some others. Basically, just spend the money now...YOUR GONNA WANT TO DO IT AGAIN!!!!

[Bryan Raffa]

solid strut is the way to go on a man made surface.. dont care what the others say... they haven't been doing it long enough.. keep your suspension stiff .. until track conditions deteriorate.. helps on cross cuttin the ruts on a ass out track.

[zmpolaristech]

yup, that strut seems to be working REAL good for you Raffa...J/K;)

[riverrat]

We share our setups, team Greenwood Lake/Honda;

In the front we use 85 forks which have two springs, take out the smaller spring, and then slide up the shock in the triple
10" rim with 20" duro tire (or anything with a lot of knobs) in the front, or else you will hit your pipe with the studs after slamming it. See my thread about a 10" rim if you can't find one.
Out back c826's on steel or douglas blue label rims. As zmpolaristech said, you can use other tires, and they will work, but they probably won't hold the screws as long, and throw them because they are too soft. c826's are nice and hard (that's what she said)
To lower the rear get a dura blue TRX lowering link, and max it out. Anything else is probably unsafe, especially if you go off track and hit any bumps.
Up a tooth in the front, and down a tooth in the rear, and you can use the same chain
Extend your axle with 4" spacers, or get a durablue eliminator, or x-33. You can play with stagger, but I haven't found it to help.
Inflate your tires so that all the screws grip the ice.
One stud per knob is a good starting point.
I used 3m weather stripping adhesive on each screw to help seal them, but not necessary.
The direction of the screws matters. Play with it and let us know what you find.

DON'T EVER DRIVE YOUR STUDS ON PAVEMENT, ICE ONLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If you do anything but this setup, you probably won't have a chance at keeping up, just speaking from experience.

[riverrat]

Oh and if you have 86 shocks up front, you can try and find 85 springs on flea bay, and just swap the springs.

Everything is easily reversible and you can go trail riding. Just swap tires, link, and extenders, and sprockets. You can leave the stock sprockets, but your top speed will be limited which doesn't matter on the track, only if you go for some top speed runs, or we make a mile long track or something.

[RIDE-RED 250r]

Thanks again for all the input fellas! :beer

Riverrat: I am currently running a Durablue Eliminator +4 axle.. Thanks for the advice on the front tire setup. I thing that problem would be especially bad with the ESR pipe I'm running. It's quit a bit bigger the FMF Fatty I was running...
So, for the front tire, we are talking more like a quad front tire in the 20" sizes.. Interesting.... I have noticed the Kenda Dominator holeshot wannabees seem like a pretty hard compound, as compared to ITP holeshots anyway. Those dominators seem pretty cheap as well, but tough to beat $50 a tire with what you guys all seem to recommend in the c826's.....I will look into the lowering link.

This is some good stuff guys. I have never raced anything at any level before other than some friendly recreational drag racing amongst friends and family.... Those ice ovals look like such fun! I actually got the kitchen pass from the wife to race! Now to get her on board to the goodies to set "Precious" up for the ice...... ;)

[RIDE-RED 250r]

Oh and if you have 86 shocks up front, you can try and find 85 springs on flea bay, and just swap the springs.

Everything is easily reversible and you can go trail riding. Just swap tires, link, and extenders, and sprockets. You can leave the stock sprockets, but your top speed will be limited which doesn't matter on the track, only if you go for some top speed runs, or we make a mile long track or something.

Yep, I have the 86 spring setup in my '85 forks.. BUT, my other project R is an 85 so I can just swap the springs between the two..

I will probably stick with stock gearing, unless I can find a case saver that can clear a 14t drive sprocket with the chain... I'm sure my 350 can pull the taller gearing, but like you say, the oval doesn't really call for it.

[just ben]

looks like you will all set up,well except for ice to ride on.

[riverrat]

There is another dynamic that happens using stock gears and smaller tires, and that is your gear is "narrower". If your are making a lot of power you want " wider" gear spacing.

[eddie pettengil]

yep, with everyone that gave out setup tips we only all agree with the c826, that might be where to start. 20 racers will have 20 different setups. Half the fun of ice racing is just trying to find that balanced setup. good luck

[Bryan Raffa]

yup, that strut seems to be working REAL good for you Raffa...J/K;)

It did.. I can start anywhere.... insted of only the outside front corner....:D

[ChrisD]

The c826 is the tire of choice not because of side wall flex or anything more complicated than they are hard compound so they take longer to spit studs, are square so they give a solid contact patch and used to be cheap. You can get into the "they are two ply so they are light, bla bla bla.

I don't use 20" tires for the simple fact that they gave me too much traction. A wider tire with just that many Kold Kutters made it impossible to turn. It just wanted to pull straight.

Please don't use a strap to lower your rear suspension. You will want suspension. The tracks can get rough and god forbid you hit a snowbank. Been there. Also, if anyone ever had the end of the strap come loose and go through the chain/sprocket at speed, it is a dangerous and scary experience. Get the lowering link.

I would not pull the front 85 spring out if you have a nice pipe. It does soften the load some and the studs will ruin your pipe. I would only pull the front springs if you can get the 10 inch rim and smaller front tire. I would keep the springs in and lower your triples on the forks instead. I do run the 85 spring set up in my 86 but I have he smaller tire. My pipe does have the scars from trying it with The 23 inch tire. I now run a 21 in the front.

Don't worry about that spring load / traction crap. I have never had a loss of traction of any difference as a result of removing the spring. It works great and you can buy springs cheap. I paid $5 or $10 on eBay years ago.

Riverrat is correct about the direction of the studs making a difference, but be careful not to tune your studs too much. You may end up stripping the screw in the lug and eventually spitting that stud out.

[RIDE-RED 250r]

Again, many thanks to everyone for the advice. I will definitely look into running a 20" tire with 10" rim up front and probably just slide the forks up a little more. They are currently slid up about an inch right now.

And for $60, the lowering link is on my shopping list. Before you guys advised me on that I was going into it thinking it would cost me hundreds to effectively lower the rear... Doing it right for $60 can't be beat!

I think I will probably end up changing the rear sprocket size a little as well.... I'll have a better idea with the gearing with the 350 after I get some seat time blasting the gravel roads up on Tug Hill this summer.....

Gonna stink waiting till Feb of 2013 to try ice racing... even if Ice-Fest didn't get cancelled, I would not be likely to run this year as I just got my 350 built and need to get it broke in and jetted in before going racing.

[zzmegad]

I just wanted to say thanks to everyone for the great info in this thread and also ask any of the Z guys what they used for a lowering link

[RIDE-RED 250r]

Hey Riverrat, I just read your entire thread on the 10" rim. Tell me if I have it right.... the .125 3x3 banshee rim works with grinding of the hub and drilling new lug holes? I'm a little fuzzy on what exactly has to be ground down on the hub. And after grinding the hub does it make it unsafe for use with the 11" rim switching back to summer mode? Or should I look into getting another hub to set up for the 10" rim and swap setups for ice racing vs summer riding??

[ChrisD]

You have to grind / cut down the hub for the Douglas rim too. I would buy another one for the summer. They are cheap on ebay. You also have to grind down the fins on your brake caliper to get the rim to clear it. You don't have to take off much.

[RIDE-RED 250r]

You have to grind / cut down the hub for the Douglas rim too. I would buy another one for the summer. They are cheap on ebay. You also have to grind down the fins on your brake caliper to get the rim to clear it. You don't have to take off much.

Ok, thanks for clarifying that for me... There is alot of back and forth in the 10" rim thread and I got a little confused.... So, the Douglas Banshee rim in .125 doesn't require the centerboring for the hub correct? Just a little clearancing on the hub, caliper and re-position lug holes....

[Bryan Raffa]

I just wanted to say thanks to everyone for the great info in this thread and also ask any of the Z guys what they used for a lowering link

stock link, extended 1" or a banshee link is a little longer.. or a rare HR Racing adjustable link .. git it raggg;)

[RIDE-RED 250r]

OK, I'm gonna jack my own thread for just a minute here.... Who the H-E-double-hockeysticks is running that #420 in this vid??!! Holy crap he's haulin the mail! :twisted: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e5Qp1CICRIo&feature=related

[Bryan Raffa]

OK, I'm gonna jack my own thread for just a minute here.... Who the H-E-double-hockeysticks is running that #420 in this vid??!! Holy crap he's haulin the mail! :twisted: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e5Qp1CICRIo&feature=related

thats John R he's one of the slower fellows....:lol:

[350XJEDI]

:drool:makes me want to move back to saranac lake , sure miss the ice!!:crazy:

[JohnR.]

thats John R he's one of the slower fellows....:lol:

If you say so pokey. ;) I spread myself way too thin last year. I'll be back with a vengeance.

There's not much to say that hasn't been said in here already. I think you're on the right track. As far as the front hub, you will need to take maybe 1/8" off the part that sticks past the wheel stud so I wouldn't worry about using the same hub year round, there's plenty of meat on there as it is. If you can get a Lodestar axle I would go with them, I have had friends try to get DG to make good on their warranty with no luck.

John

[RIDE-RED 250r]

If you say so pokey. ;) I spread myself way too thin last year. I'll be back with a vengeance.

There's not much to say that hasn't been said in here already. I think you're on the right track. As far as the front hub, you will need to take maybe 1/8" off the part that sticks past the wheel stud so I wouldn't worry about using the same hub year round, there's plenty of meat on there as it is. If you can get a Lodestar axle I would go with them, I have had friends try to get DG to make good on their warranty with no luck.


John


Well, I'm already running a Durablue Eliminator 2+2. Might get a Lonestar for the next build though.... I have been looking up prices on the suggested parts for the ice setup and for what a good used hub costs, I'll probably just get one and swap the entire front wheel/hub back and forth.

MAN, you sure are a heck of a runner on that vid I posted! I've watched that vid no less than 6 times in the last hour! LOL! I assume you have been at this a while? It definitely shows.. :beer

[JohnR.]

Thanks. I have been riding trikes since the mid 80's. I bought this one around 1994 and in the years that followed got serious about turning laps on the ice. Chris and I kind of grew up near each other and when I bought that one it got him interested in them again. Since then its been a one up battle for the last 15 years or so. He got an FTZ ported cylinder, a year later I did, then a couple of years later I built my 330, the following year he had one too. On a small track like we usually end up running at IceFest it isn't so much about the size of the motor as it is the chassis set up or the rider. We've run BIG tracks down here some years (3/4 mile or maybe more) that you are running 6th down the straight with a 15/33 gear and 4th or 5th through the corners. That only happens when we get a year with ice and no snow, its too much work to plow a track that big and too dangerous to clip a snow back entering a turn at 60mph. Hopefully we can get a few weekends on the lake this year but its not looking good.

John

[riverrat]

OK, I'm gonna jack my own thread for just a minute here.... Who the H-E-double-hockeysticks is running that #420 in this vid??!! Holy crap he's haulin the mail! :twisted: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e5Qp1CICRIo&feature=related

That's one of my videos, and John isn't fast, we are just slow.....haha. That was my first year there. John and Chris taught me most of what I know, gave me a great start at it, they really went out of there way to help me.

[just ben]

I am also a wanna be ice racer.The last time I had a trike on ice I went swimming and that was 17 years ago. This thread has been very informitive to me. thanks for posting everyone

[tri-Z ripper]

I also ran the solid strut and dropped the forks on the Tripples ran great just no traction, wasn't running the C826 need to get on it. otherwise i like the way it rhode slammed.
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h265/german0024/cc9f8966.jpg
The pic in my sig is what happens when you get side swiped with studded tires!! it wasn't a tiger

[RIDE-RED 250r]

I am also a wanna be ice racer.The last time I had a trike on ice I went swimming and that was 17 years ago. This thread has been very informitive to me. thanks for posting everyone

I agree, wholeheartedly! Great bunch of people here! What appeals to me about this group of ice racers is that it doesn't seem at all "cut-throat". Just a bunch of trikers getting together, turning some laps and having fun. That's my kind of event!

[ChrisD]

Cutthroat? Oh, don't worry there is a bit of that too...unfortunately. :rolleyes:

For the Honda guys, I posted a link to my setup in the following link.

http://home.comcast.net/~atc330rrider/atc330r1.html

[RIDE-RED 250r]

Cutthroat? Oh, don't worry there is a bit of that too...unfortunately. :rolleyes:

For the Honda guys, I posted a link to my setup in the following link.

http://home.comcast.net/~atc330rrider/atc330r1.html

A little friendly competition is OK by me as long is people don't get vindictive about it.. ;)

Thanks for posting the link to your site. Lots of good info in there! :beer

[brapp]

my set up last year was a 450r swingarm its a inch shorter, a set of fast treakers in 18X10X8 and a 10 inch front rim lowered front 3 1/2 inches back 3 offset 8x9 wheels, pt high rev, droped rear sprocket 2 teeth and went 2 biger on front sprocket, adjustable airbox vents in the lid to fine tune without changing jets, i am sure there is more but i dont rember exactly off hand.

[riverrat]

Ok, thanks for clarifying that for me... There is alot of back and forth in the 10" rim thread and I got a little confused.... So, the Douglas Banshee rim in .125 doesn't require the centerboring for the hub correct? Just a little clearancing on the hub, caliper and re-position lug holes....

What back and forth? There is just confused people in the world who posted things that had nothing to do with what I was trying to do. grrrrrr.
The banshee rim works by just drilling new lug holes. The opening will keep it centered on the hub. You have to grind the tips of the hub, and the first and last fin on the brake caliper. I haven't personally used a banshee rim yet, but someone else did and said it works fine. I used two other rims that I had to enlarge the hub opening. My next rim will be a banshee rim. If I remember right it's a 4/156 10" rim.

[RIDE-RED 250r]

What back and forth? There is just confused people in the world who posted things that had nothing to do with what I was trying to do. grrrrrr.
The banshee rim works by just drilling new lug holes. The opening will keep it centered on the hub. You have to grind the tips of the hub, and the first and last fin on the brake caliper. I haven't personally used a banshee rim yet, but someone else did and said it works fine. I used two other rims that I had to enlarge the hub opening. My next rim will be a banshee rim. If I remember right it's a 4/156 10" rim.

That's kind of what I was referring to... That thread could have only been about half as many pages if some others weren't interjecting and confusing the whole idea...

Anyway, the .125, 3x3, 10" Banshee rim is on my shopping list... I may however need a little coaching on drilling the holes correct and on center... How does one get the hole locations dead on to where they are supposed to be??

[riverrat]

Yea, I tried to update the first post so that's all you need to read to understand what to use. No need to read the whole thread. I should make that a little more clear, but I was waiting to get a banshee rim myself and try it.

Don't sweat the holes too much, because the hub opening will keep the rim centered on the hub. You can make a template like I did and use that as a guide to drill the holes. Try to use a drill press if you can so the drill won't walk. You can also just enlarge the existing holes 7mm and use a washer to cover the hole. Again, the hub will keep the rim centered on the hub. The douglas rims require that you use regular nuts, and not lug nuts. Try to get locking nuts, or use lock tight.

[RIDE-RED 250r]

Looking on Dennis Kirk, they don't list a 10x6, 3x3 rim for the banshee.... Guess I'll have to dig a little deeper....

[JohnR.]

I did some snooping around including looking at the application guide on DWT's site and they don't show a 10x6 with that offset anymore:

http://www.dwteurope.com/2011ApplicationGuide.htm

I swear its a conspiracy to keep trike users from getting affordable 10" fronts.

John

[mtsnieg]

I got a 10 x 6, 4/156, 3+3 Douglas blue wheel part # 014-46 from Recreation Tires Inc. I ground the hub a bit so it'd sit flush on the wheel. Than using the hub as a pattern I drillted the new holes. Works great and obout $60 to my door.

[RIDE-RED 250r]

I did some snooping around including looking at the application guide on DWT's site and they don't show a 10x6 with that offset anymore:

http://www.dwteurope.com/2011ApplicationGuide.htm

I swear its a conspiracy to keep trike users from getting affordable 10" fronts.





John

Those dirty (*@&^*@(!)@*&@&!*&@(!!!! Looks like the only thing offered in 3x3 is an 8" rim..... Sunuva....... I'll check that recreation tire mtsnieg.. Thanks for the info..

[RIDE-RED 250r]

Yep, there it is boys! http://recreationtires.com/moreinfo/014-46.html

[JohnR.]

This is the closest thing I could find. Maybe the DS450X happens to have the same center bore as the Banshee? The DS is 4x144mm and the Banshee is 4x156mm.

http://www.rockymountainatvmc.com/p/43/53/257/991/-/8669/Douglas-.190-Wheel/10X6

The link requires you to select "Front" and then you can look at size and you'll see 10x6 3.0+3.0 offset.

I haven't given up yet.

John

[RIDE-RED 250r]

Just ordered the Douglas 4/156, 10" 3x3 from Recreation Tire. $57.95, free shipping... Thanks MTSNIEG!


1st item checked off the shopping list... :)

[JohnR.]

Recreation tires shows it but I wonder if they actually have it in stock. I've ordered from them before and they've had the wheels drop shipped from the manufacturer:

http://recreationtires.com/wheels.html?ct1=Douglas%2010%20Inch&ct2=Douglas%20.125&ct3=4/156%20Bolt%20Pattern

If the center bore of the 450X wheel will fit it is a .190" wheel. I believe that 4x144 is the correct bolt pattern for 85/86 250R's and 350X's so if the center hole is right then you're golden, if not it shouldn't be a huge deal to have it opened up. Any competent machine shop can do it and I can't see them charging too much to bore one hole.

John

[riverrat]

The 4/144 has to have its hub opened up, that's the first rim I tried.

[JohnR.]

Oops. You posted while I was typing that last message. Let us know what happens with it. I'd like to get a 10" for the front of my T3 at some point in the near future.

[RIDE-RED 250r]

Will do... hopefully they have it...

If they do and I get one, anybody who is even considering ice racing in the future ought to get em while they can....

[JohnR.]

We're all pulling for ya. :) Have you given much thought to your front tire choice?

[RIDE-RED 250r]

We're all pulling for ya. :) Have you given much thought to your front tire choice?

I was looking around just now... I kind of like the Kenda Front Max, but they only come as small as 21"... Not sure if that will work and clear the pipe. I'm running the ESR ATC5 pipe and it's a bit fatter than my old FMF Fatty I used to have. So, I'm still looking at different front tires right now..

Was also looking at studs. I will be getting a pair of those Cheng Shin c826 as suggested. What length stud am I looking at? I don;t want to get too long and have leaking issues... The knobs on those 826's don't look real tall. I was thinking the 1/2" screws might be the ticket.. They sell for about $50 per 1000ct...

I'm not looking to copy you guys tit-for-tat, I REALLY appreciate all this good advice... I just don't want to waste money buying the wrong stuff and ruin a brand new set of tires.. I suppose tire slime might work, but I would like to avoid that if possible. I just have this feeling that 2 or 3 lbs of slime tumbling around in the tires might not work out so well as I'm trying to learn the art of sideways ice racing! ;)

[JohnR.]

Don't sweat it, we didn't discover anything groundbreaking, we just have years of collecting data along with trial and error. I would not use anything shorter than 3/4" and preferably 1" screws. When its time to put them in we'll explain how to make them hold air, there are posts on it already. When I'm done I put about 1/2 the amount of slime in that is suggested and have no problems.

For the front you want something with flat surface area on the treads, the Front Max has those slits cut in the knobs so they're no the best choice. I am going to try a Maxxis front this season. Have you tried to get the Cheng Shins yet? It might be hard to find them this time of year.

John

[JohnR.]

Dennis Kirk actually has them in stock right now, you might want to get them right away. I would wait until I had the 10x6 in my hands to order a front tire. Oh and 1000 studs might not be quite enough, order a bag of 250 or 500 too.

[aldochina]

what mtsneig said!! i think that is the route i went!! check this link to riverratt's thread!! pics of my conversion on there!!
http://www.3wheelerworld.com/showthread.php/107821-10-quot-rim-for-front-of-an-ATC250R/page5#top

i know x owner has some no gind ones available, but they are pricey!! i also got a few from when eric ordered a bunch. those have the proper lug layout, but you still have to grind the hub!!

[JohnR.]

Its pretty much the nature of the beast, the center of a 10" can only be made so big and apparently its not big enough for the uncut hub. I have a Douglas 10" that I bought about 13 years ago that was made for the R and it required the hub trimming but not the caliper.

[RoscoW]

I've seen a few quads running a front dual rib sand tire
http://recreationtires.com/moreinfo/SR960.html

here's another Ice screw manufacturer, Lots of good pics to look at in the photo section of different tires and patterns (all on quads of course)
http://www.mf44.ca/en/index.asp

Ross..

[RIDE-RED 250r]

I probably won't be ordering tires for a bit but I wanted to try and get that front rim ASAP since it looks like they might be on their way out. I'll probably be looking at ordering tires in a few months... I won't be racing this year, but next year for sure! Plus, I've just about got my brother talked into coming with me and racing his 350x! :D He has a slight fear of riding on ice after a mutual friend hit an ice heave on Oneida lake on his sled last year.... I keep assuring him it is completely safe and to shake the sand out of his hoo-ha! :lol:

So far DK is the only place I have found the Durablue lowering link, price: $95.

Thanks for the recommendation on the stud length/quantity. For what they cost, I'll probably just get 2 bags of 1000 so I have some extra......

Been looking at a bunch of different front tires on Rocky Mountain... Is 20" the max we can go? Or will a 21" clear? If a 21" clears, that opens up a few more options. But, I'm aiming to find a 20" I like to get that front end lower....

Does anyone know of a case saver that will clear a 14 or maybe even 15t drive sprocket? The Moose saver I'm using now only clears a 13... :rolleyes:

[JohnR.]

What I don't like about the sand tire is that when you end up in the outside of the turn in a bunch of chewed up powder they will not help you stop at all. Also, we run around the whole lake so I like the idea of having some knobs when I'm out in the unplowed sections. I ran a Holeshot copy for a few years and it worked well, never lost a single stud. Chris and Anthony use a tire with more of a street/flat track type tread. Just about any tire will work when you're just getting your feet wet. You can even get a 22" tire for the stock rim that should clear. My 23 only used to hit when I really slammed it with cut springs in the front.

[RIDE-RED 250r]

By any chance was that Holeshot copy you ran a Kenda Dominator?

[aldochina]

i think chris runs a Duro scorcher!! i kinda like the Duro HF247! no idea how it would be on the ice!!
http://www.rockymountainatvmc.com/p/43/81/165/1081/-/17491/Duro-Scorcher-ATV-Tire
http://www.rockymountainatvmc.com/p/43/81/165/1081/-/17496/Duro-HF247-Sport-ATV-Tire
kinda like this tread pattern also!! it comes in a super low 19" too!
http://www.rockymountainatvmc.com/p/43/81/165/1084/-/19950/Maxxis-Razr-Cross-ATV-Tire

[JohnR.]

Chris got one that was supposed to clear a 15 but I don't think it did. There are ones out there for 14's for sure, check ebay for billet ones. See if Na's Racing still sells their's. They used to be the big name out east for TRX250R stuff but have kind of gotten away from them with all the 4 strokes around.

[JohnR.]

Yes it was a Dominator.

[JohnR.]

The 247 is what Anthony runs.

[mtsnieg]

Just ordered the Douglas 4/156, 10" 3x3 from Recreation Tire. $57.95, free shipping... Thanks MTSNIEG!


1st item checked off the shopping list... :)

I can't really take the credit. I ordered mine after reading Riverrat's thread. When grinding the fins on the caliper you have to take in account the thickness of your brake pads. Wore out pads will not need to be ground much. With new pads it need to be ground more, if that make sence. As for the front tire I went with a Maxxis MX 20x6x10.
139795139796

As for the lowering lonk, check out www.magicracing.com. They have the lowering link for $67.

[JohnR.]

That's about the same tire as I got but mine only has about 1/4" between the tips of the X's so I can get more screws on the ground at any one time and I should get some better front end bite which is what I've struggled with the last year or two. Gonna try a different type of stud as well.

[just ben]

I have a duro scorcher(hard compound) on mine loaded up with 400 + screws. I havnt run it yet but it sure looks like it will bite good.

[riverrat]

I wanted the schorcher but got the 247 by mistake, its fine on the ice, no steering issues, it just cuts through snow and slush for regular riding more than I want it too.

[eddie pettengil]

I have a Duncan case saver and it worked for a 15 tooth. it was tight and shows sign of scraping but it worked.

[RIDE-RED 250r]

Thanks Eddie. I would be happy to find one that clears a 14 with no issues. Sounds like the Duncan piece might be the ticket...

[riverrat]

Oh, and let me correct myself by saying if you want to enlarge the holes on the 4/156 3-3 10" rim, you only need to slot them 7mm not 14mm, and the nut will practically cover the slot without a washer. You can do that with a dremel of air grinder.

[sbjones73]

my set up is also the duro scorcher up front. they plow the track so i really didn't need any knobbies up front. i will try and get some pics of my set up for you guys.

[eddie pettengil]

going out in the morning for some more early season practice. going to bring the 85 fork set up without top spring, with top spring and with top spring and spacer for more pre load and try to give you guys some details. just plowed today.
139821

[Bryan Raffa]

Dammit............... I want ice!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[eddie pettengil]

you will get it Bryan. 4 weeks ago this lake was open water. this is my second weekend already. in 2 weeks we had 6 inches. we are about 6 hours east of you in NH, so our temps cant be that different.

[Bryan Raffa]

ill get it feb 10 & 11th indoors!:naughty:

[sbjones73]

races are cancelled for today here in southern wisconsin, but we are for sure getting there. 3" of ice in like 3 days. so i bet there will be ice this next weekend. !!!!

[sbjones73]

139867pc of my ice racer.

[sbjones73]

it wasn't done at that time. the wires hanging down in front are for my tether kill switch. plus now i have added a 38 pwk air stryker carb and air box eliminator kit. plus i have to do my nerf bars, and number plates. i pretty much have it all done besides my axcaliber axle. i still have to put that in. i will be sure and post up some pics of it all done.

[sbjones73]

oh and do some studds !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! those are really important.

[RIDE-RED 250r]

oh and do some studds !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! those are really important.

We musn't forget those!! :D

I almost forgot about em, but I have a set of old school (bought in '95) Maier low-profile rear fenders on my project R.. I'll be throwin them on for the ice.. Glad I kept them!

[eddie pettengil]

just a heads up on the low profile fenders, they limit how low the rear can be dropped. trust me, i had 2 holes through the number plate where the studs came through.

[JohnR.]

my set up is also the duro scorcher up front. they plow the track so i really didn't need any knobbies up front. i will try and get some pics of my set up for you guys.

We plow it here too. I actually bought my 4x4 plow quad mainly for the ice more than the driveway. LOL! If you do a 20 or 30 lap race the outside of the turns can get snowy and its nice to have a little more knobs out there but really I like them mainly for when we blaze the whole lake.

Also, what Eddie said is right. I wouldn't wreck a set of rare fenders like that. I cut my stock style fenders back a couple of inches from the seat. They just create drag when you're doing top end runs on the lake. I can post a pic if you'd like to see how I did mine.

John

[RIDE-RED 250r]

Sure, post em up..

[JohnR.]

I thought I had some of it from the back but here's one of the side so you can see how little I left:

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k162/atc330r/trikes/DSC03690.jpg

Some from a little further back:

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k162/atc330r/trikes/DSC03667.jpg

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k162/atc330r/trikes/DSC03671.jpg

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k162/atc330r/trikes/DSC03670.jpg

Not much fender, just a little wider than I am. :)

[sbjones73]

Yeah weonly do like 4 laps or so for the heats then like 6-8 laps for the finals. They keep the track very clean. It's pretty much bare ice, only gets soft when the sun hits on it like when it's 30 plus degree's out.

[riverrat]

I've hit my atock fenders into my studs jumping on the rear for traction, if the fender wasn't there that would have been my as$ on those screws.

[brapp]

i got a pair of carhart coveralls with some ice screw marks on them my first year on the 350x i rubbed soemone and tore up the whole calf of my one set of coveralls

[RIDE-RED 250r]

That's a great looking ride John! Love that seat, Mosh's work by any chance?? I see where you cut the fenders...

[just ben]

just thought I would share a pic of my front tire. like I said i havnt run it but looks like it should hook up well.139927

[RIDE-RED 250r]

Well Ben, I'm no expert on the topic.. (hence this thread! :)) But I would think that tire might work good.. I believe either Chris or John may have recommended it earlier in this thread??? I could be wrong though, I have been sponging up alot of good info here..

[just ben]

Well Ben, I'm no expert on the topic.. (hence this thread! :)) But I would think that tire might work good.. I believe either Chris or John may have recommended it earlier in this thread??? I could be wrong though, I have been sponging up alot of good info here.. as im no expert like I said the last time I had a trike on ice I went swimming. My tire choice was because I got screwed on a deal and ended up with that tire

[riverrat]

just thought I would share a pic of my front tire. like I said i havnt run it but looks like it should hook up well.139927

You might need more screws on the outside since that is what makes most contact when you have the wheel turned.

[JohnR.]

Thanks for the compliment. Its actually a Hi-Flite that I put on sometime around 1995. Mrs. Mosh did the one I put on my T3, she does top notch work.

John

[RIDE-RED 250r]

Well, scratch another ice racing item off the list! Went out in my shed and looked around because I had a hunch I had a pair of 8" rear rims with some old Armstrong Trekkers on them.. Sure enough, I DO!! Tires aren't the Fast Trekkers, they are 22x11x8 Trekkers.... They have been kicking around the family for about 12 years or so and I ended up with them.. They were last run on my brother's 350x. Got lucky.. saved some money, and they are nice aluminum.


Ok, went back out to the shed to look again... Only identifying markings on the rims is "DICO".... Old Douglas rims perhaps???

[JohnR.]

Probably old Dico rims. I knew they made tires but not rims.

[RIDE-RED 250r]

Hmm, I have never heard of DICO as a tire brand, or maybe it's just my fuzzy memory... But I don't claim to know everything.. I was thinking that possibly it was an old acronym no longer used.. But since there is a company by the name of Dico, it makes sense they are Dico rims... I learn something new on this thread every day.. :)

But any which way we cut it, I have a real descent set of bright aluminum 8" rims. :D

[JohnR.]

Yup. I had Dico Turf Tamers on my 350X.

[riverrat]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Dico-4-115-4-x-85-mm-ATV-Honda-Yamaha-Suzuki-Rim-/290619914177

Apparently they made rims too.

[JohnR.]

Link doesn't work.

[CRAZY70MAN]

Here is a little info on Dico products..... Company Homepage: Dycorp
Location: Anaheim, CA, United States

Dycorp and it's predecessor Dico have been in business since the 1950's. Dycorp is a major supplier of after market bolt-on ATV performance parts: - Tires - Spacers - A-Arm Guards - Rims - Exhaust systems - Full Chassis - Axles - Nerf Bars - Swing Arm Skid Plates - Bumpers - Throttle Kits - Footpegs In short Dycorp is your one stop ATV Super Shop for ATV enthusiasts. We carry accessories for all the major brands of ATV's: Honda, Kawasaki, Suzuki, Yamaha, Polaris and Bombardier. Dycorp offers low prices & outstanding customer service. I never knew they made that many product myself??? Interesting.....

[riverrat]

Link doesn't work.

Idk, search dico rims on fleabay.

[atc007]

Yes,,Dico made rims,,,many,many rims : ) The following info from someone who has Never ice raced with studded tires. But Many tens of thousands of miles on snow and ice,,on every imagineable piece of equipment. 12 Year old tires,,lots of studs and sideways on the ice constantly might not be the best call. I would get fresher tires,,,especially considering the amount of money and TIME you're gonna spend on studding. Just my .02!

[JohnR.]

I don't think he's going to stud the old tires, he was just making note of how old they were.

Just giving you a heads up Anthony because the link you posted in your build thread isn't working either.

[atc007]

Very good! I must have took it wrong,lol,,Imagine that!

[RIDE-RED 250r]

Yes, the tires themselves are junk and I will not be running them. I was just happy to find a nice set of bright aluminum 8" rims that I forgot I had. :)

UPDATE ON THE 10" Banshee 3x3 RIM: Got an email from Recreation Tire confirming my order and providing UPS tracking info. The rim has shipped and is en-route, scheduled for delivery on monday the 23rd. Looks like it's still available, so get em while ya can boys!

[eddie pettengil]

Had a chance to try the 86 fork spring and the 86 fork spring with a 1 1/2 spacers for more preload. There is a huge difference in rear grip with the added preload. The front end does not compress and stay compressed nearly as long with the spacer therefore puts more weight on the rear wheels sooner. I did find it gave me less arm pump and I could race more laps than without the spacer.

This is not the setup i'm looking for, if anyone has any thoughts on how to loosen the trike up on corner entry (right when I lift off the throttle) it would be great. The quads are getting faster every year and my missing piece to the puzzle is in the corner entry stage. I feel I have most of them covered from there.

Here are some pics from Sunday, Also a link to our ice and dirt flat track series (more pics there). Trikes welcome by the way. www.flattrackevolution.com
139989139990139991

[atc007]

I'd say play with the air at this point. Assuming you've already tried thicker oil,terry kits etc.. Cool pics,nice track,thanx for sharing!

[zmpolaristech]

yep, play with air pressures, try a few pounds less and more, here and there.(hint hint...)

[baycitysteve]

how do you know its a suspension change you need ?? could be tires,screws, air pressure.

[eddie pettengil]

I have a good understanding of what air pressure does and have tried staggering them to get it to turn in how I want. This did work but, it also made me extremely loose in mid corner and exit. I'm thinking its more of my forks and shock not working together. I have tried the 85 fork with no top spring in the past hoping the softer setup would allow weight tranfer to the front faster (quickly releasing grip from the rear when I dive off the throttle) but found it to be too soft, slow and very unresponsive.

What are your thoughts on a heavier rear spring? Will this give me the faster rebound on the rear I'm looking for. I have a trx450r spring I have been thinking about trying.

[eddie pettengil]

how do you know its a suspension change you need ?? could be tires,screws, air pressure.

I'm guessing its a suspension issue because of how good it feels at every point on the track except for when I release the trottle entering a corner. I'm looking for the rear end to start to slide before I enter a turn. Whats happening now is at the end of the straight I lift off the throttle and the rear of the trike just kind of has to much grip. Because of this grip, I cant get back to the throttle. Did I explain that ok ?

[rjs89ia]

i agree with the tire pressure testing but ive watched a few of these ice threads and have seen a few mentionings about tire stagger and how it has little affect but im not sure if ive seen anyone talk about changing spacing. i know all about wider spacing for stability but from working on sprint cars left rear spacing makes a big difference in making the car tight or loose. we would run the left rear with a 1/2" spacer on a tacky track to loosen the car up and run out to 4 or 5" on a dry slick track to get the downforce of the wing to put weight on the tire to tighten it up. ice and dirt are way different but i havent had the chance to test the spacing theory on ice yet. is there any light in this area?

[riverrat]

yep, play with air pressures, try a few pounds less and more, here and there.(hint hint...)

Way to be specific.
Tire pressure doesn't do squat, unless you have an ill handling trike with a bent frame or tweaked axle that you are trying to sort out. Keep your tire pressure so that all your studs are making contact. Play more with the pattern of the studs.

In dirt oval racing, you see them run stagger, they inflate ( or run a bigger tire) on the outside, to help it turn. This doesn't work on the ice, because once you inflate the outside tire too much, the screws are no longer in contact with the ice, and it will have the opposite effect.

Beating quads into the corners if a tough deal. They have the advantage there because of the extra wheel and stability it provides braking into the corner. They can just throw their junk into the corner at full blast basically. I have been scratching my head on how to beat this. About the only thing I have come up with is to brake earlier, and get on the gas sooner, this way you are braking straight on, without fear of tipping. It's very difficult to brake and slide at the same time.

After riding my friends 450ltr, it felt like riding a Cadillac around the course.

[JohnR.]

One of the problems I see with running 85 springs minus the top ones is you end up with several inches of "slop" in the front end where the tire is neither in the air nor pressing down on the ground. I have been wanting to disassemble the fork and put the small top spring down in the lower leg, possibly on the damping rod. That should take up that slop and then when you go from accelerating to braking you will put pressure on the front end immediately instead of after you get past the slack part of the fork. I've yet to drag my pig out of its corner but maybe I'll do it this weekend since my other stuff is done now.

[atc007]

I have a good understanding of what air pressure does and have tried staggering them to get it to turn in how I want. This did work but, it also made me extremely loose in mid corner and exit. I'm thinking its more of my forks and shock not working together. I have tried the 85 fork with no top spring in the past hoping the softer setup would allow weight tranfer to the front faster (quickly releasing grip from the rear when I dive off the throttle) but found it to be too soft, slow and very unresponsive.

What are your thoughts on a heavier rear spring? Will this give me the faster rebound on the rear I'm looking for. I have a trx450r spring I have been thinking about trying.

I meant fork air pressure,not tires. I jumped past ALL of that as you obviously have alot of experience here. I totally understood what you meant when you asked. I realize jacking the air up very far makes a choppy fr end the rest of the time,,just trying to find that happy place. A pound at a time. Air pressure in R forks makes a Huge difference,when Really taken the time to get them right. Off road,,I always bled mine off,every time we stopped. But for your needs,sounds like it could help.Your spring idea should help with the entry your looking for,,but will it take away the squat you also need for traction? One way to tell ?!

[atctim]

What are opinions on offset rear axle? I'm playing with the idea of widening one side more like the dirt track (oval) racers do. Any input from the "fast guys" would be appreciated.

[JohnR.]

I pulled my LR in 1/4" to try to get it to turn better last year. It tightened it up too much and it didn't want to slide, it was flat out dangerous and that was with a set of well used studs, with new ones it'd be worse. If we ever get ice this ear I'd like to fool with. Moving the other side around some.

[atctim]

JohnR - I was thinking honestly about extending my right rear out like 3 inches with a spacer. You say it effected handling by just pulling the left rear in 1/4" ?

[JohnR.]

Small adjustments with regards to rear offset make a big difference. Extending the right side will have the same effect as pulling in the left side. Whatever side you pull in has more weight on it. I you want to see how big of a differce it makes, pull the two spacers from behind one hub and switch them to in front of it, lift up that tire and then go lift up the other one and you'll find the one that is shorter is heavier. I raced a TRX250R flat track for a while and playing with those spacers along with front swaybar adjustments were how you set the corner weights on it. When we had mine all jacked across you could barely lift one rear tire with both hands and the other you could lift with one finger. Since there is no way to run a front swaybar on a trike you only have the position of the rear tires to play with. When I sucked my LR in I was hoping to stop the trike from being so loose in the turns and sliding so much and drive through the turn more, boy did it ever. It was driving so hard off that LR that when you rolled on the throttle after pitching it into the turn it would just start to go straight! I have to make up some shims at work and bring them home so I can fool with it in little increments instead of 1/4" at a time. I think we are leaving a lot on the table by not tuning that aspect of the machine. Our bikes have always run really, really well on the ice so rather than fiddle with the rear we just turned laps and had fun. Now that some of the other guys have really stepped up their game we need to start exploring different areas where we can improve our machines and that is one of them. My plan has been. To focus on front traction and getting the trike to go where I point it as I come into bthe corner this season. I'm going to also focus on the back end some too.

[zmpolaristech]

Way to be specific.
Tire pressure doesn't do squat, unless you have an ill handling trike with a bent frame or tweaked axle that you are trying to sort out. Keep your tire pressure so that all your studs are making contact. Play more with the pattern of the studs.

In dirt oval racing, you see them run stagger, they inflate ( or run a bigger tire) on the outside, to help it turn. This doesn't work on the ice, because once you inflate the outside tire too much, the screws are no longer in contact with the ice, and it will have the opposite effect.

I love how you have an answer for everything, not just any answer...THE ANSWER...THE ONLY ANSWER.....

for 1, Air pressures are huge, if everything else is "good", you'll notice a few pounds here and there.
2, stagger is also HUGE. Especially on a smaller track. It will make the bike rotate into the turn as soon as you lift off the gass, instead of trying to "turn" the bike in.
3, stagger isn't necessarilly air pressures, it's about tire roll out (size). There are many methods of stretching a tires diameter, without distorting the contact patch (tread), so that your not "ballooning" the tire to get the extra roll out.A slightly larger roll out on the outside of the bike (circle track obviously), helps tremendously on corner entry....YES, even on ice.
But hey, what the hell do I know...., I'm just learning, right?

[ChrisD]

I see what you are saying Eddie. Sometimes I have te same problem. Although, my solution is a little more brute. My simple problem is balls. Some days u have more balls than others. If I come into the turn hot, I walk away from most. Other times I come in slow, tapping the front brake, ruining my momentum. Coming in hot is a great place to pass. When other guys slow down the minivan for the turn, I like to zip underneath. It's also good to shotgun onto the straight.

I would say that tire pressure helps on small tracks, but most of the time we are on larger tracks and it ends up pulling too hard to the left in the straight.

Prep for your turn 2/3 down the straight pin it and hold on for dear life. I know this is a dumb answer, but racing is as much about psychology as technology.

[RIDE-RED 250r]

Lots of good info pouring out here!

But as to the cornering, it seems that when all is said and done, we trikers are at a disadvantage in the turns against the quads in that we have to take a little more setup time coming into a turn...

Which I figure makes victory that much sweeter huh John and Riverrat??

[JohnR.]

Every year it gets harder to beat the quads. They get faster every year as technology improves while I get older and my bones get more brittle. :)

Putting the quad into a corner is a lot easier. When I ran dirt track on mine we would pitch it sideways before we even got to the turn, hold it wide open and hang on through the turn. Try that on a trike and you'll end up on your head.

[eddie pettengil]

Let's not forget about where we do have the advantage. I feel once you do get the tires spinning ( in my case) in late corner entry (before middle of turn on a oval) the trike hooks up better and gets down the straight faster.

I have a problem with the setup on corner entry. This pretty much kills everything after that. If you don't get into a corner good it effects the rest of that turn. If you find that magical corner entry setup you will walk away from any quad rider with the same skill level as you.

[riverrat]

I love how you have an answer for everything, not just any answer...THE ANSWER...THE ONLY ANSWER.....

for 1, Air pressures are huge, if everything else is "good", you'll notice a few pounds here and there.
2, stagger is also HUGE. Especially on a smaller track. It will make the bike rotate into the turn as soon as you lift off the gass, instead of trying to "turn" the bike in.
3, stagger isn't necessarilly air pressures, it's about tire roll out (size). There are many methods of stretching a tires diameter, without distorting the contact patch (tread), so that your not "ballooning" the tire to get the extra roll out.A slightly larger roll out on the outside of the bike (circle track obviously), helps tremendously on corner entry....YES, even on ice.
But hey, what the hell do I know...., I'm just learning, right?

The only answer? :crazy: Yes, I am "THE ONE" :Bounce

Someone is a little touchy there. Why did it take my comment to get you to explain your comment about tire pressure? Oh I know why, because you are afraid by revealing information to us that we might beat you then? I heard a rumor that you studied our tapes and web postings to try and learn how to beat us, is that true? For someone complaining about me "hiding" my engine size, you sure hide a lot. Well we don't, we just want to have fun and pass our knowledge onto our friends and fellow ice racers. At least I took the time to explain what I know, and not just make a passing useless comment like "play with your tire pressure".

I also never said that stagger was limited to just tire pressure, I am well aware of what stagger is. What I found with the limited amount testing I have tried, and what others have tried doesn't really help that much. Sure you can get it to rotate more into the turn, but if your studs are set up right,:confused:. And if your stagger turns your bike then that leads too.....wait let me stop and not give away anymore secrets, especially since I HAVE THE ONLY ANSWERS.

[riverrat]

Lots of good info pouring out here!

But as to the cornering, it seems that when all is said and done, we trikers are at a disadvantage in the turns against the quads in that we have to take a little more setup time coming into a turn...

Which I figure makes victory that much sweeter huh John and Riverrat??

People call us trikers crazy, I love that. It's definitely more work than a 4 wheeler to race one of these.

[eddie pettengil]

I see what you are saying Eddie. Sometimes I have te same problem. Although, my solution is a little more brute. My simple problem is balls. Some days u have more balls than others. If I come into the turn hot, I walk away from most. Other times I come in slow, tapping the front brake, ruining my momentum. Coming in hot is a great place to pass. When other guys slow down the minivan for the turn, I like to zip underneath. It's also good to shotgun onto the straight.

I would say that tire pressure helps on small tracks, but most of the time we are on larger tracks and it ends up pulling too hard to the left in the straight.

Prep for your turn 2/3 down the straight pin it and hold on for dear life. I know this is a dumb answer, but racing is as much about psychology as technology.

I used the dive underneath move alot in the past but, these guys are hardly blurping the throttle entering the corner anymore. They just run it down the straight release throttle, rear end kicks to the right and boom right to full throttle again. I'm having to race it in so deep because I feel I will get run over if not. Once I get to the corner entry I gotta tap the front brake just to get the rear end loose. Lets face it, the days of me feeling comfortable sliding a trike into the corner sideways are over. But if i could just loosen it up a little bit it would help.

This will be my 4th weekend this year on the ice. I have tried to loosen it up every week with no responce from the trike. I have found some things that will help in other areas like preloading the front forks really helps with the arm pump and overall muscle you need to use. This will be nice as we run 8-10 lap heats and 12-14 lap features but, it also added to my rear grip problem when entering.

Here are some drastic changes for this weekend to loosen the rear up on corner entry.
-I usually run about 8 lb in each tire, This week I'm starting with 12 lb (cant stagger as we are practicing on a tt course)
-I measured around my tire and came up with 54.5 inches and 55 inches. I put the bigger tire on the right rear (most of the turns are left)
-I also changed the spring on my rear shock to a trx450r spring. I'm not sure what the difference is in spring rate but I do know its stiffer and also its a inch shorter leaving me plenty of room to preload. That also makes me wonder if I might not of had enough preload on my old spring. i had to back it off all the way to get the ride hieght correct.

Well, Just thought I would share some of my setup stuff as none of you guys are my compitition up here in NH.

[RIDE-RED 250r]

UPDATE: Received my 10" 3x3 Banshee rim today.. Looks like a winner. Get em while you can from Recreation tire fellas!

Glad 3WW is back!

[cochran]

Setting up a couple Tecates to be effective ice racers I found this thread full of useful information. Thank you to the veterans that shared their information on this thread.