Need help with jets

[SteveCZ28]

ok now that christmas has passed i now feel ok with buying new jets for my 85 r. it runs super rich, and has problems idling. motor has maybe 30 minutes total run time, as ive just been heat cycling it and rode it down my alley and back 2 times. im needing a variety of jets to try to figure out what main jet i actually need. and i also need to try to figure out the slow jet also. i came across a 5 pack of jets offered by dg. but it says its a universal fit,and i dont know if it will actually fit my r or not. and i dont know which way i need to go for the slow jet. it is on stock jetting for both main and slow jets, and is a stock motor with a open k&n pod filter and full fmf exhaust. any help or input would be appreciated.

heres a linik to the variety pack i mentioned

http://www.sport-mann.com/eshopprod_cat_7635-19113_product_1183181.DG174_AND_KEIHIN_FIVE_-_PAC.htm

[SteveCZ28]

noone has any info or input for me?

[STiForester]

What is done to your motor and what exhaust are you runnin

[SteveCZ28]

2nd to last sentence

is a stock motor with a open k&n pod filter and full fmf exhaust

[Dirtcrasher]

If it's breathing that much, your gonna need a allot more fuel. I would buy the next couple sixes up of pilots and somewhere in the range of 7-10% larger mains.

Jetting cannot be done over the net, unless someone has the same build at your same altitude, your gonna have to play with it.

Make one change at a time starting with the main.

How can it be rich with a K+N pod on there? Imagine how easy it's taking in air and the pipe is less restrictive getting it out.

Sure your oil mix isn't a bit too much and masking the jetting issues?

[SteveCZ28]

im running 28:1 to help break it in. it is a brand new bottom up rebuilt motor. i heat cycled it 3 times for about 15/20 mins, took it for 1 ride and it is bogging too much to even hit power band, so i cant even do a plug chop. but when i do pull the plug it is soaked and a wet black when i pull it. so i doubt it needs more fuel than it already has. so i dont even know where to start. i dont even know where to get pilot jets from, but like in my 1st post i provided a link to the main jets, in a 5 pack, but i dont know if those will work for me or not

[Dirtcrasher]

^ Yeah, it's soaked/wet/black because it can't clear out. Get back on a regular premix and see where it's at. You've already heat cycled it.

But 100% hand down an open K and N are gonna want more fuel; ALLOT more fuel.

Don't be one of these guys that run the premix rich while they are still lean as hell (fuel to air mix) and blow up a fresh rebuild in a short time.........

[SteveCZ28]

i bought a full airbox/filter off a member from here. waiting for it to show up, so i can install it, and see how the bike acts then. if it acts ok, i might just stick with the airbox and lose the open k&n pod..

and ill mix up some fresh 32:1


i dont wanna blow this one up. thats why im asking for help lol...the original motor ran, but was letting the bottom end go as it had chunks of bearings coming apart on the crank


also forgot to mention, it doesnt want to idle, even with the idle screw adjusted all the way in...is this part of jetting also??

[pantera1975]

When I put on a full fmf system on my 86 R I went up 2 main and 1 pilot with a stock air box at 60-80 deg air temp at about 1000 ft elevation. And with that motor set up I also was running pump gas 91 octane and 40-1 klots r-50 oil.

[SteveCZ28]

where do i get pilot jets at? if i changed the pilot jet, would that help with idling?

[stroberts22]

Sounds like your are rich at idle. Have you tried to turn it out and see if you can get it to idle? The air screw tells you what pilot you need. If it is less than 1 turn in the pilot is lean. If it is more than 2 1/2 turns out your pilot is rich.

[SteveCZ28]

i tried turning the airscrew. it doesnt make a bit of difference

[pantera1975]

Try RmATV thats where I got all of mine from.

[stroberts22]

Do you still have the stock pe carb? Do you know what pilot is in it? What main is in it?

[whyzee]

What main jet are you running right now, what clip is the needle at and where is the air screw set at? ?
I bet you need a 148 main jet. Needle clip 2nd down from top and air screw 1 3/4 turns out from full in.

[SteveCZ28]

i tried turning the airscrew. it doesnt make a bit of difference
yes stock carb. 142 main 52 pilot

needle clip all the way at the top

[sweetip2000]

I found a guy selling an 86 200x and he said all it needs is a rear axle......
Sounds familiar don't it ?

hes asking 900.

[SteveCZ28]

I found a guy selling an 86 200x and he said all it needs is a rear axle......
Sounds familiar don't it ?

hes asking 900.

uh what???

[stroberts22]

Do you have to choke it to crank it cold?

[SteveCZ28]

yes i do have to choke when cold. sometimes have to squeeze gas into the carb to get it to fire

[Dirtcrasher]

If your clip is all the way at the top, the needle is all the way down (leanest position/fuel wise). Get it in the middle and bump up the main and pilot depending on where you go with the airbox deal.......

[stroberts22]

Pilot jet might be cloged causing fits. Clymer manual calls for what you got it jetted at with 2 turns out and clip in 2nd groove.

[SteveCZ28]

jets are brand new. i bought a rebuild kit for it...

[whyzee]

Check the float height in the Carb... good chance during the rebuild it got knocked out of spec. No way you should be rich with your current settings. So check float height, if that is good ya gotta do a compression test for us.

[SteveCZ28]

what should the float be set at?

[stroberts22]

Sorry I'm not much help. I'd want to get the idle cicuit right before I done anything else. If you think it is rich at idle turn it all the way out and see if it makes a difference. Maybe that will let it idle. Pilots come in 50, 48, 45, 42, 40 and 38 that is leaner than yours. Pe carbs take a different pilots than the standard ones in the fcr, pj and pwk carbs so I'd take one with you. Any atv shop should have jets. 16mm is float level

[SteveCZ28]

ok will try to get this beast running tomorrow...and see if i can get it to idle worth a damn...im not looking forward to all the kicking lol

[whyzee]

The float height is 16mm.. hard to check w/o gauge.
However, the float tip should just touch the float valve. If you are off just bend the float arm carefully.

[SteveCZ28]

i have a float gauge to check that with

[SteveCZ28]

got my float adjusted. it was only like 2mm to high....also, if i hold the carb upside down the spring in the float valve should hold the float up correct? the spring in my float valve does not hold the float up. you have to hold the carb sideways, with the float pin at the top and the float hanging down to get it to rest correctly....in the tecate and all my banshee carbs you can hold the carbs upside down and not compress the spring in the float valve

could this be an issue???

[stroberts22]

Mine pushes the pin in when I hold it upside down also. I have to hold the carb sideways to set the float. The high float would make it rich. Was it high enough to leak out the overflow?

[SteveCZ28]

No it wasn't coming out of the overflow. and the float was actually low

[stroberts22]

You didn't crank it and wake the neighbors. If you do end up going down on your pilot jet I would go up on the main. I was working on getting my pilot jet right but it seemed like it affected the main also. I think they work together to get the balance right.

[SteveCZ28]

no shes down for the night. so are you guys reccomending i go leaner, or down in size on my pilot jet then??

[SteveCZ28]

can someone get me a link specifically for the pilot jets?? im having troubles finding them. i find pilot jets for the keihins, but for 4 strokes. and the ones for the 2 stroke pe series is only for up to a 26mm... which appears to be a different size. as the pilot jet in my carb is 28mm long and 5.5 thick

* edit, found a website that has the 22 series pilot jet for the pe 34mm. i ordered the 2 next sizes down. so a 50 and 48 for the pilot. so we will see where that gets me, hopefully so it will idle. then work on the main, of which i just ordered a 5 pack variety of mains at the same site for the pilot's.

[whyzee]

Did you buy the R like this ,or did you do the rebuild. How was it running before all of this ?

[Dirtcrasher]

The float lays down by gravity, it doesn't need spring pressure to hold it outright when the carb is held upside down.

Someone please post the chart for Steve.

The main jet effects all circuits, a pilot jet has no effect on the main jet or high throttle whatsoever...... Just starting and right off throttle.

[SteveCZ28]

Did you buy the R like this ,or did you do the rebuild. How was it running before all of this ?

long story short, i bought the r like this. the motor that was in it, would run, but never hit ful powerband either. it was having a ton of problems. so i partially toer it down to inspect crank seals, and thats when i found i could move the crank in and out maybe 1/4 inch or a tad more, and found chunks of metal in the crank bearings, so it was on its way to letting go.

so thats when i found this fresh rebuilt engine from a member on here. had receipts showing it was a fresh rebuld, and i also partially tore this motor down to inspect the rebuild and it is legit, with 0 time on it untill i installed it, heat cycled it, and rode it 1 time

[SteveCZ28]

The float lays down by gravity, it doesn't need spring pressure to hold it outright when the carb is held upside down.

Someone please post the chart for Steve.

The main jet effects all circuits, a pilot jet has no effect on the main jet or high throttle whatsoever...... Just starting and right off throttle.

but wont the pilot jet affect how it runs at idle???

[Dirtcrasher]

but wont the pilot jet affect how it runs at idle???

"Just starting and right off throttle" - yes, including idle.

Read some of this: http://www.3wheelerworld.com/showthread.php/55086-Carb-Jetting-101-Terms-Tips-and-Jetting-Theory

A bad idle isn't gonna seize my engine at the speed a lean main would.....

I can't even number the amount of threads stating "fresh rebuild, seized motor, what did I do wrong?" and its normally too close of a tolerance or a lean main jet.

[SteveCZ28]

im not even going to attempt to jet it until i get my new airbox here, and on the bike....i would just feel more comfortable doing it this way

heres a video of it running a lil while back. except now it wont idle on its own...but it does the same thick smoke when you rev it, and it doesnt seem to clear out, which im guessing is my fuel mixture right now

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tBftBV3RKXU&list=UUSt58Vbf7PphabYMu9UePjA&index=16&feature=plcp

[whyzee]

Ugh ....I feel your frustration. Can't understand with the jetting you are running now why you are soooo rich.. members on here have had 85 carbs just go completely bad on them. I have never had that happen to me and I have literally been through 20+ R's
However, seeing that the bike was acting this way before the motor swap it very well could all be in the Carb..
If you have eliminated the following :
Clogged air cleaner
Clogged fuel strainer or screen
Clogged breather tube and finally a clogged muffler (which I doubt seeing that yours is brand new. )
Can you do a compression test for me. This is definitely the next step in fixing your problem

[SteveCZ28]

Clean airfilter. Clean fuel strainer and is getting uninterrupted fuel flow. It very well could be the carb because it did the same thing before on the old motor. Ill try my other carb tomorrow. Air breather is clean. Just checked compression and it came back right at 185psi.

[whyzee]

Awesome compression. Save your money and time on jetting and just pick up a decent used Carb .
Only other thing it could be is the timing is off or a weak stator, but you eliminated this variable by replacing the entire engine correct?
If so, it is definitely your Carb.

[SteveCZ28]

well ill throw my other carb on it tomorrow...i had to rob the main jet holder out of it to put in mine when i snapped mine a while ago, so ill put the spare carb together and see if it helps at all...idk about timing. new motor came with its own stator, and flywheel. everything is clean, dry and free from condensation in there also...

[SteveCZ28]

if i did decide do go with a aftermarket/different carb. what would be a good carb for this? i know i have a 38mm flat side on the tecate, and it runs like a raped ape. could i get a 38mm on the r also??? and what mods would i need to do in order to run a larger carb?

[whyzee]

I always kept mine stock so I can't offer any advice.
please keep us posted.

[SteveCZ28]

i found a few pj series carbs, but i dont know if they will fit my intake. so im waiting for answers from a few people

[SteveCZ28]

ok this is where im at. i put my spare carb together. put it on the bike. 3rd kick it started right up. and idles really good on its own. took it for a ride, its lacking power, and now seems lean, so im heading back out to fatten the main up to a 145 that i have, and will see how it does then. atleast im getting somehwere now :)

[whyzee]

Seems like good progress today!

[SteveCZ28]

Yes I do consider this good progress. Even tho I couldn't do a plug chop I did checj the plug and it was dry so that tells me its lean too. That and I didn't have smoke out the exhaust either. I'm 2 mins from firing it back up

[SteveCZ28]

well i lost all daylight, so i kind of ran out of time. put the 145 in, and its still lacking power. moved the clip on the needle all the way down to see if i could get it to have some power, but it didnt help. did my best at another plug chop. checked the plug and its still dry. so now im waiting on the jets i ordered earlier this week, and go up another size on the main. but atleast it starts right up and idles. its probably the easiest its ever been to start since ive had this thing

[Dirtcrasher]

All I can tell you is this; Even when you get a full pull out of that motor, it may be very lean. Lean motors border lining on "seizing" run great and many people think there all set.

With no airbox, if I put myself in your shoes, I'd plan on starting up very rich. Then work myself down with some testing.

I know these are apples and oranges, but I merely took off an A/B lid, tossed in a mid range cam, and a Supertrapp exhaust. My 350X has gone from a 138 main jet to a 155 and it is not rich. No porting, no other mods. I'm betting I can run a 160.

You have opened up your air flow immensely as well as the exhaust. It wants FUEL.......

So just be careful and not a statistic. Listen to Pedo bear will ya :lol:

[SteveCZ28]

LMAO pedo bear knows all...yes im just waiting on my jet kit to arrive. im running a 145 now, and it still isnt nearly enough...i guess ill just jump it to the 150 that is coming in this variety pack i bought. and see how she does there...

im still running whats left of the 28:1 fuel....is this helping or hurting me???? my opinion atleast is i have the extra oil, to help me in the potential lean conditions im having currently....im hoping my airbox shows up tomorrow. and ill see what she does then...

[whyzee]

Agree with DC 100%.. keep jetting up until it bogs at 3/4 + throttle, then back it down to where it is crisp.
with your mods you very well could be experiencing a lean bog now. I would throw a new plug
on it also.
if your jetting is right you can run 28:1 perfectly. Anyone who cannot get it to run properly at 28: 1 has never jetted properly , including the proper plug heat range for your type of riding.

[Dirtcrasher]

You've done your heat cycles, dump the rich gas. It has a large factor in jetting that your not familiar with.

More oil in the gas means less gas in the air /fuel ratio.

I know, I know, I did it when I was younger myself. I felt my 2 strokes needed a richer pre-mix so they would be "lubed up" enough to break in.

The biggest issues I see at allot of these builds is too many things get changed at once, then the owner is scratching their head "why the heck isn't this running like a raped ape??"

Had you broke it in with the stock air box and exhaust, you would be questioning much. But you have changed the flow of fuel/air immensely and added more oil to your mix.

It's a recipe for disaster........

[SteveCZ28]

ok, but obviously my jet is still too small for the stuff done, ie open k&n pod, and exhaust....how will 32:1 help me in this situation??? wont it just seize that much quicker while trying to find my right jetting??

[Dirtcrasher]

Your confusing a lean oil mixture with a lean fuel/air mixture, either of which can cause seizure.

MORE OIL IN THE GAS MEANS LESS GAS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Less gas and more air = BOOM.

Fix the mixture, jet it FAT. And understand that idling with a pilot jet at low RPMs is nothing in comparison to WOT at high RPMs with the wrong main jet.

Did you read the link I provided ?

[SteveCZ28]

oh ok. i got you now. ill dump the gas in the morning then. im not going to run it anymore until i get my jets in the mail then. i dont wanna lock this beast up

[Dirtcrasher]

Atta boy!!

IDK what jets you ordered but I'd rather see you jet this with an airbox, get some hours on it, then if you want more power, ditch the airbox and jet up again.

Jetting is NOT FUN! I get so sick of taking the carb off depending on the model. But once you do it 10 times, it's about a 5 minute change and your main may or may not be accessible from the float bowl for a 2 minute exchange. I don't have an R in the garage now........

EDIT - And, BTW - I bet I have 500$ plus worth of jets for just 3 or 4 motors. It's never an etched in stone experience and you have to have evrything on hand or you won't be riding.....

[SteveCZ28]

Atta boy!!

IDK what jets you ordered but I'd rather see you jet this with an airbox, get some hours on it, then if you want more power, ditch the airbox and jet up again.

Jetting is NOT FUN! I get so sick of taking the carb off depending on the model. But once you do it 10 times, it's about a 5 minute change and your main may or may not be accessible from the float bowl for a 2 minute exchange. I don't have an R in the garage now........

i ordered a 5 pack of jets thru dg for the keihin carbs that will work on the pe carbs i think its 140-150. yea, i will more than likely put the airbox on it, jet it that way and ride it this winter, early spring with the airbox, then maybe attempt running the open k&n again. maybe ill just toss that whole idea i i get it running like a champ with the airbox....
i dont mind the jetting, i just hate taking the gas tank on and off so many times just to get to the carb. i cant get the slide out of the carb with the tank on also, so it takes a few extra minutes to even make a needle clip adjustment. no biggie, but still...yes i get to my main jet thru the float bowl, but carb obviously needs removed for that

[whyzee]

No need to remove the Carb for the the main jet....just loosen the two clamps and rotate the Carb towards you so you can access the drain plug , remove it and stick that socket up there and remove the jet. After you do it a couple of times. Changing the main is about a 5 min deal.
the needle should stay constant with your mods probably a 3 rd. Down from top.

[SteveCZ28]

ok, ill try that next time i goto jet.