200es low compression (not running)

[jdtench]

I've read the forums and have found these could be the causes:
1) Needs cylinder bored, new piston, new rings
2) A valve is stuck open
3) A gasket is blown

My problem is, I don't know how to tell which one of the above is the culprit. What I've tried so far points to #1. I dropped a little motor oil in the spark plug hole to see if compression was briefly restored. It had high compression for about 2 turnovers. Also, my brother had the trike when it died and he said it started smoking bad and all of a sudden died. The engine was seized up when I got it from him and this happened after he said it started smoking. It was terribly low on oil when I got it. I did get the engine freed up again, but now the compression is low. So, is there any quick test I can do to eliminate #2 or #3 before I have someone tear this thing apart and charge me $45 per hour? Thanks!

[bkm]

Low on oil, heavy smoke, seized engine,= Don't waste your time trying to figure out what is wrong, I'll save you the trouble.

At the very least it has a heavily scared piston and cylinder, but more likely has more wrong with it. It will need to be torn down and inspected. If it were me I would find a good running replacement and swap them out. They made a million of those things so finding a good runner shouldn't to difficult.

[dougspcs]

'bkm' is correct..based on the information you have given us.

Compression test and other testing is irrelevant!!

Two choices..tear-down, inspect & rebuild or replace.

Though maybe not so much on the easy to find a replacement since the 200es was a one year model limited to 84. No other engine will interchange..

[bcredneck]

rip the top end apart your self as long as you dont brake or losse anything you shouldnt screw it up then post pics even as a start just pull the head cover off

[atc500x]

Remove CDI cover,turn the motor until the rotor point the pickup coil ( to be at TDC, valve closed),remove spark plug and push air with a air compressor in the hole.Check for air in the exhaust,of carb,ouside th engine or in the crankcase.Anyway,for any of thoses problem you need to remove the top end.....

[jdtench]

Ok, got it running. A buddy of mine offered to do the top end work, so I let him :) The piston rings had essentially been wielded to the cylinder wall. It was in bad shape. Got another cylinder and a new piston and rings. While he was in there, he replaced the valves too. Put it all back together and it runs! We put a carb rebuild kit in it. It has a problem now when you get to half throttle. It starts sputtering at half throttle and after. Of course, you can't go very fast like this. I know it sounds like a carb issue, but he said he installed the rebuild kit exactly as the shop manual had described, and I trust him. I guess since it's 29 years old, maybe "factory" carb settings shouldn't be used, lol. Any ideas?

[MonkOFox]

If its the same carb off the bike and not an ebay replacement, it could still have had some gunk and clogged something up. I would just take the carb back apart, remove all the rubber and soak everything in diesel or something.
after a couple days, blow that stuff out with air and wipe it down really good with alcohol with a link free cloth and put it back together and give it another go.

[jdtench]

It is the original carb. I cleaned it out before I knew the condition of the cylinder and piston and he said he cleaned it while he had it apart doing the rebuild. I read somewhere else that someone was having the same issue and another member mentioned the gas cap may be faulty causing it not to allow enough fuel to flow. I'll remove the cap when I get home and see if it runs better then. If not, I guess I'll pull the carb and look at it.

[yamaha driver]

Check for airleaks also

[jdtench]

Ok, here's what happened today. Checked to see if the fuel cap was the issue, it wasn't. Still sputtered at half throttle. So, then I decided to check for air leaks. I looked in the air box and the air filter was just laying in there, so I connected it up and put the top back on. That did seem to help, but still sputtering. I also noticed that there is an exhaust leak. Where the muffler pipe connects to the header pipe, but muffler pipe is cracked. Cracked pretty bad too, almost broken in half. So, I'll doctor that up later to see if it helps. I decided to check the throttle valve. Noticed that there was some gunk in there. Cleaned it up. Also, I noticed that the throttle valve itself had some damage to it, not sure if it's causing my problems. Put it back in and tried again, a little better, but still sputtering. I thought the petcock filter might need to be cleaned. This is where it gets interesting. I pulled the gas tank off and drained the gas in preparation of removing the petcock. The shop manual calls it a "fuel strainer" and it looks like it comes right out when you pull the petcock, but no, it does not. Instead, a tube came out and the fuel strainer stayed in. So, I thought that I could clean it (the fuel strainer) with compressed air. So, that's what I did. I blew air up through the hole the tube came out (which was in the fuel strainer) hoping to blow off any crud stuck to it. I rinsed out the tank and put in some more gas. Put the tank back on, turned on the fuel...now there's fuel coming out the bowl of the carb and pouring into the air box. This was not happening just 15 minutes before. Looks like I'll be pulling the carb this weekend to see if there's anything my buddy missed...unless you guys have another idea.

ALSO, it doesn't have a battery (I know I shouldn't be running it without one, but they're just so expensive). I need to know if the following is a problem or not. The neutral light does not shine when it is in neutral and running. However, if I turn on the lights, the neutral light comes on. The lights actually get dimmer when it is revved (I thought they should get brighter). Is this just something that happens when my idiot self runs it without a battery? Or, is it something I should check out. (I'll be getting a battery this weekend.)

[tri again]

Yeah, a good question I never asked is it ok to run them without a battery?
Does it overload the regulator/rectifier or other components?
I ran mine for years without a battery and it worked just fine when I finally did get one.

So you cleaned the gas tank and strainer and now the carb leaks?
Overflow? or bowl gasket?
Sure doesn't take much crud to hang open the float valve.
I've blown some mystery or 2 stroke oil into the carb fuel inlet
just with mouth pressure and a new piece of fuel line, especially if you've been in there a few times.
Just make sure the float bowl drain is open so it has someplace to go.


See if the following words light up as a clickable link.
service manual
wiring diagrams included

the 200es is famous for questionable electrical connections.
which could also be part of your hi rev breakdown.

Check all connections, especially grounds.
By turning on the lights, it may be forcing a better connection so the neutral light comes on...better.

Hi rev breakdown could also be as simple as nipping the last tiny bit of sparkplug wire
that the sparkplug cap screw into so you get some fresh wire to bite into.

Be careful or you'll wind up with 5 or 10 of these silly things.
and please keep us posted.

[jdtench]

It's leaking out the tube coming out the bottom of the carb. This happened about 12 years ago when i restored it the first time and all i had to do was tap on the bowl lightly to unstick the float. I'll just have to remove the carb because that isn't working. Also, hooked a battery to it and the neutral light comes on now without the lights on. But without a battery, the neutral light barely (and i mean barely) burns. Seems kind of odd. Oh well, got to work graduations next two days so i won't get to look at it until saturday probably. Guess I'll pull the carb and really soak and blast it.

[jdtench]

I know my goal should be to keep this thing OEM, but I did get to pull the carb today, it was clean. I did blast it and went to put it together and it is still leaking out the overflow (out the bottom). Thinking about an Ebay carb http://www.ebay.com/itm/Carburetor-Carb-Honda-ATC-200-ES-Big-Red-1984-New-/390411845641?hash=item5ae65c0009&item=390411845641&pt=Motors_ATV_Parts_Accessories&vxp=mtr#ht_3396wt_1125. Anyone have any luck with these things?

[jdtench]

Ok, pulled the carb again, didn't see anything wrong. Blew out the float valve seat thoroughly, still leaking. So, bought one of those carbs off ebay. I'll stick it on when I get it. Maybe this will also solve the mid to high throttle issue and I can actually get to the cosmetics of the machine.

[jdtench]

Apparently when i blew out the petcock it turned all the crud into tiny pieces of crud the can slip through the strainer. Must not have cleaned the tank good enough afterwards. Cleaned it real good and the carb is working now. Still is cutting out thiugh. Check the plug and it was dry, but black. Burning rich. Tried leaning it out by moving the needle a notch, didn't help.

[oscarmayer]

the a/f screw on the bottom of the carb you need to turn it in till it stops, then back it out 1.75-2 turns out and see how it runs

[jdtench]

Same. I set it the factory turns out past being seated, adjusted the idle, turned the mixture screw until the engine died (built my own tool for this) and backed it out the specified number of turns. Still cutting out. I need to record a video of it so you guys can hear it.

[jdtench]

Ok, I know it is running rich. I also noticed the the decompression lever won't stick up. It just goes back down. However, if I hold it up while the engine is running, I can feel something BARELY hitting it. A very light tap. It was working before my buddy did the top end. I've looked in the forums for information on why a lever wouldn't work and it looks like it points to valve adjustment. So...the question is, could the decompression lever indicate incorrectly adjusted valves and this causing the engine to burn too rich?

[3wheelrider]

Did you use the new needle?-If so -put the original back in. The new ones in the carb kits (aftermarket) never match the original in thickness & taper.-Just a thought.

[jdtench]

Got a video.

http://youtu.be/AfumeV7Dsko

[jdtench]

Yes, used the new needle. I'll try to see if my buddy has the old needle and I'll see how that works.

[oscarmayer]

if he did not put the rockers in right, the decom lever will not work. if i recall one of the rockers has a tab that sticks out and that has to go by the decomp hole.

[jdtench]

Great news, I got it running right. Right after I recorded that video, the damn thing would barely start and wouldn't take any gas past idle without dying. I parked it for the day and thought on it all night and all day. I decided to check things that my buddy did. He did get it running (and didn't charge me a dime) by doing all the boring, honing, and assembly and I'm very grateful. I went to check the exhaust valve to see if I could see why the compression release wasn't working. I looked in there expecting to see a flat head screw and a 10 mm nut...but didn't see them! They had came loose and fallen into the head. I used a magnetic screwdriver to fish them out of the oil and set the valve myself (never done that before). Saw how the compression release worked and now it works. It fired right up! I had also installed that new carburetor and it works great. I think setting the exhaust valve is what fixed the sputtering at WOT. It will definitely rev up now. I jumped on it and took it for a spin. 100% improvement. Now that I've got it revving up, I've noticed that it appears that the clutch is slipping. I have a shop manual and it describes how to adjust it. So, I'll do that this week.

Also, when at idle, if I pop the throttle to wide open, it acts like it will die and probably would if I don't let off of it. It likes to be brought to WOT at a steady pace (not slow, but not immediate either). I'm thinking that if the exhaust valve was wrong, then the intake might be also and that is causing this. The intake valve just looks like a bugger to get to. I also don't have the handy dandy 10mm dog head wrench to get in there with. I'll take a look at it later this week, but so stinkin' excited that the thing will go full throttle now! When I start the cosmetics, I'll take some pictures along the way so you guys can see it.

[muthey]

I was going to mention about the original carb did you ever check the float to see if one of the arms broke on it, I know my es' did and it would flood out the over flow anytime I turned on the fuel, so that might be something to check.

[jdtench]

I had that carb apart a dozen times and it didn't have any problems with the float that I could see. I just got POed late one night and ordered a new carb, lol. It came in today so I thought, what the heck. I put it on and did the valve job. Runs pretty good except wanting to die when you pop the throttle to WOT too fast. I'm going to check the intake valve to see if it is ok. I will also put on the old carb to see how it does.

[jdtench]

Since it ran so well after adjusting the exhaust valve, I decided to give the original carb one last chance. I pulled the new one (which worked great by the way) and put on the old one. I then looked at the intake valve and the nut and screw was off of that one! So, I adjusted the intake valve (which is a pain to get in there, thank God they put that little hole in the frame to get a small screwdriver in there), put everything back together, and away I went! It runs perfectly now! It was slipping a little bit going into gear, so I followed the shop manual and adjusted the clutch. That pretty much fixed it. I still think the manual clutch plates need to be replaced, but it runs just fine right now. It has three times the power now than it did when I picked it up. Wife is bugging me about fixing up the work shop so I guess that I will have to do that before I work on cosmetics. Another trike brought back from the grave!!!

[jdtench]

Since this one is titled "not running" and...well, it is running now, I'm closing the thread.