Deadly poison gas from welding something you cleaned with brakleen?

[tri again]

Saw it on ford-trucks.com

14 ppmillion is enough to kill,
tetra whatever turns into a one shot deal

What an easy mistake to make.

[riverrat]

Thanks for posting this. Here is a link to a guys story:
http://www.brewracingframes.com/id75.htm

[tri again]

Nice find riverrat.

That should cover it.

Thanks

[NINJA]

A contestant for the Darwin awards.

[Chazz of Blades]

indeed, but I do feel sorry for the guy, one little slip up.

[bugler30]

Is it the same with the chlorinated and non-chlorinated? I tend to stick with the non-flammable non-chlorinated just to prevent fire issues.

[puggerton03]

Holy crap! He's lucky.

[fabiodriven]

Holy crap! That is a mistake I could easily make! Thanks a lot for posting this Dr. Joe.

[swifty]

wow thats scary im sure ive welded in the past with brakleened stuff but my old welder didnt have argon. good post saved me from ever using brakleen for welding projects again

[Dirtcrasher]

I basically swim in (have been for 25 years) brake/carb cleaner, actetone, lacquer thinner, WD40, PB blaster etc. I've never worn gloves and I'm sure I've heated a part that had brake cleaner on it. The other day I was torching red off my frame and it hit the paint stripper; MAN was that a horrible smell!!!!!!!!!!!!

[racer....X]

Its scary to think about all the stuff we've exposed ourselfs to out in the garage!

[fabiodriven]

Its scary to think about all the stuff we've exposed ourselfs to out in the garage!

As long as it's not the neighborhood kids you'll be OK.

[rdlsz24]

Stacey on the Gearz show on Speed Channel mentioned this before

Rob

[Billy Golightly]

Phosgene is bad stuff...I always use carb cleaner before I weld stuff.

[barnett468]

Saw it on ford-trucks.com 14 ppmillion is enough to kill, tetra whatever turns into a one shot deal
What an easy mistake to make.


Hello tri again


Just thought I’d add some additional info to this topic to help clear some things up for you and any others that are interested in it.


Is it the same with the chlorinated and non-chlorinated? I tend to stick with the non-flammable non-chlorinated just to prevent fire issues.

No.


AIR LEAK TESTS, BRAKE CLEANER AND PHOSGENE

If one feels it necessary to do an air leak test one suggestion is to test by gently spraying [using the long narrow nozzle] FLAMMABLE [not water base or chlorinated] brake cleaner around the intake boot at the head and carb mount while the bike is idling. If the idle goes up noticeably you have an intake air leak. It is more volatile than flammable carb cleaner and therefore detects small leaks more easily.

I still use brake cleaner but only the flammable kind [since I don’t see much point in spraying non flammable substances into a motor to check for an intake leak], just don’t spray it on ex pipes anyway and be careful NOT to inhale fumes of ANY cleaners. Flammable Carburetor cleaner may produce more harmful fumes than NON chlorinated flammable brake cleaner however I don’t know, further research is needed by someone to determine this if one wants to know.


Here’s one type of chlorinated [no tetrachloroethylene], flammable brake cleaner one can use when testing for intake leaks without the fear of creating phosgene.

http://www.crcindustries.com/ei/product_detail.aspx?id=05084



With it idling, spray some carb cleaner around where the carb mounts and see if it changes the idle. do NOT use brakleen, it burns into phosgene gas and can kill you.

[QUOTE=tri again;1227182]Hi Not sure I read everything correctly but I remember a thread about using brakleen to clean stuff that will be torched or welded. I personally can't seem to live without it.Apparently it turns into phosgene gas in the presence of flame which can cause permanent lung damage with the smallest of exposure. I've heard that carb cleaner can work to check for intake leaks but not sure about that either. I read the can after I read that article and the warning is very vague.

Flame is not required to break down tetrachloroethylene to a point at which it will produce a very small percentage of phosogene as a byproduct only heat is.

Thermal decomposition of Tetrachloroethylene creates phosgene ie heat + UV + TCE => some phosgene.

“Tetrachloroethylene began to decompose near 400°C and vigorous pyrolysis occurred over 600°C. Complete decomposition was observed at 800°C. Hydrogen chloride and phosgene were detected as decomposition products, presumably because chemical reaction occurs between tetrachloroethylene and water contained in tetrachloroethylene.

Chemosphere

Volume 26, Issue 8, April 1993, Pages 1507-1512”


Tetrachloroethylene is NON flammable and is used in NON flammable CHLORINATED brake cleaner.

Flammable brake cleaners are NON chlorinated [no tetrachloroethylene].

[bkm]

Holy Sh!t. Did Barnett just learn how to multiquote?:lol:

[barnett468]

Holy Sh!t. Did Barnett just learn how to multiquote?:lol:


Hello bkm


Although your post is off topic I'll be happy to answer your question for you.


Yes my good friend, scary isn’t it? Imagine the megaposts I can make now, lol. My thanks to MOSH for voluntarily telling to me how to do it.:Bounce


For the love of all internet forums Barnett...Please, Please, please, use the friggin quote button. The bottom right of every post there is a reply quote button. Try it.

[bkm]

Off topic yes, relevant to the sanity of the members who can now read your post's without getting an aneurysm, hell yes. lol

[barnett468]

Hello bkm

Hey, check this out, I can make a box inside of a box now too, cool huh?, lol.:Bounce:Bounce:Bounce


Off topic yes, relevant to the sanity of the members who can now read your post's without getting an aneurysm, hell yes. Lol


Read my posts??? I didn’t think anyone actually read my posts, lol.

[300rman]

In order for this to happen, you have to use chlorinated brake cleaner with argon shielding gas. I didnt even know you could get chlorinated brake cleaner anymore, everything I have ever seen is non-chlorinated

[barnett468]

Hello



In order for this to happen, you have to use chlorinated brake cleaner with argon shielding gas.

The excerpt from a science article copied in my post 15 along with the science article whose link is pasted below say it’s even easier than that. Below is another article I have regarding this topic. I only understand about ½ of it and the equations look like member Tran’s Vietnamese posts to me, lol, but if a non scientist [like myself] reads enough of it they can get at least a general understanding of what’s going on.


The excerpt from the science article in my post 15 above states that only heat [beginning at 400 degrees] alone is necessary to create phosgene from tetrachloroethylene. The science article in the link pasted below suggests similar [see pg 133 paragraph 1]. The article also states in the last paragraph on pg 142 that in a case where tetrachloroethylene is broken down into phosgene by uv rays created during welding and shielded by a “conventional” welding tip shield that the use of a glass pyrex shield in place of the conventional one virtually eliminates the decomposition of trichloroethylene. This sounds strange to me since this same article states that phosgene decomposes at 800 degrees and the temperature within the radius of the welding shields is well over 800 degrees. I also didn’t see back to back test results in the article to substantiate the writers shielding claim. Glad I’m not a chemical scientist.


Pg 133. phosgene created from the decomposition of trichloroethylene by different heat sources, pg 142. last paragraph explains glass shielding eliminates trichloroethylene decomposition into phosgene.

http://books.google.com/books?id=fM43Ny2eFS8C&pg=PA142&lpg=PA142&dq=tetrachloroethylene+argon+phosgene&source=bl&ots=-mCaR7G2fy&sig=XiKonCpU33P38aCEf520lVDabOU&hl=en&sa=X&ei=NWmfUbe9M-630QHFsYH4Bg&ved=0CDEQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=tetrachloroethylene%20argon%20phosgene&f=false




I didnt even know you could get chlorinated brake cleaner anymore, everything I have ever seen is non-chlorinated

I don’t know the answer to this myself but CRC still makes it. A quick call to them should answer that question. See the link below.

http://crcindustries.com/auto/crc-brakleen-brake-parts-cleaner

[tri again]

bump this upppppp.

EZ mistake to make.

No flame with brakleen

[AK47KID]

Link to the story is broken

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

[barnett468]

Link to the story is broken


Which story are you referring to?


PREVIOUS KAWASAKI INTERNATIONAL R & D PROJECT ENGINEER AND ATV DEPARTMENT SUPERVISOR

[AK47KID]

Thanks for posting this. Here is a link to a guys story:
http://www.brewracingframes.com/id75.htm
This story

Which story are you referring to?


PREVIOUS KAWASAKI INTERNATIONAL R & D PROJECT ENGINEER AND ATV DEPARTMENT SUPERVISOR


Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

[barnett468]

This story

Here it is.

http://www.brewracingframes.com/safety-alert-brake-cleaner--phosgene-gas.html


I especially like the part where he says he read the warning label on the can AFTER he got a big whiff of it . This is certainly the order in which I would do it too. :crazy:

"After about 10 minutes I went to the office at the house and sat at the computer to check the warnings on the brake cleaner can..."

"Do not use this product near open flames, welding operations, or excessive heat."

[cr480r]

A friend of mine was poisoned. One big whiff.. They kept him in the hospital for 4 days.. He wasn't right for a couple months.. He was lucky. He had stopped by a friends house to help troubleshoot a welder.. He had no idea the scrap pieces of steel he found on the floor had brake kleen residue on them from a project earlier that day. He was leaning over the workpiece and only laid an inch long weld..

[fabiodriven]

I thought about this thread all week. On Tuesday of this week I had removed the filler neck from my truck to modify, repair, and mount it in a different and more permanent place on the body of my truck. It involved cutting the old filler neck off where the cap mounted and welding on an extension for a new cap. After chopping the old cap mating surface off my factory filler neck, I cleaned all the old paint and rust off it and discovered it was full of holes that had rusted through. I would have just replaced the entire thing at that point, but I didn't have the time to wait for the new filler neck to arrive. Instead I decided to weld all the holes up, which I did, and then I sprayed out the new filler neck with carb cleaner to get all the debris out of it from cutting and welding before I welded the two pieces together as well as check the neck for leaks. My first instinct was to grab the brake cleaner which I almost did, but then I thought about this thread. There is the very real possibility this thread may have saved my life.

I had my truck nosed in the garage as far as I could get it, which means roughly half of the truck was hanging out of the garage door. Because of that, there wasn't as much ventilation in the garage as I should have had because the truck was taking up a lot of the door space. As I was welding the new piece of the filler neck to the old, the part was rolling coal. Old diesel, paint, carb cleaner, and rust smoke all were cooking off the part. It was quite a bit of smoke, more than I wanted to breathe, but I really wanted to get this finished and was short on time right at that moment. At one point I caught a whiff of what smelled like welding galvanized steel, which is poisonous as well. I had a feeling I might be in trouble at that point. There was no galvie in what I was welding that I was aware, but I knew that was a bad smell. I finished up and went outside the garage for some air. I felt fine at that time and continued on with what I was doing until I was done.

That night I felt ill, and I continued to feel ill up until about this morning (Sunday). My stomach and appetite were not right and my head hurt. I couldn't taste or smell much either, which is less notable for me because I smoke cigarettes. I knew what it was because I did this before in 2014, but that time it was from doing a lot of welding with flux-cored wire. I was outside on that one, plenty of ventilation, but it still got me. This time I was just begging for it with the circumstances I created. I don't want this to happen again, but at least I'm not dead, lol.

I felt there was a lesson here, I dunno. Weld in properly ventilated areas I guess, don't weld galvie unless you know what you're doing and have a respirator, try to clean your metal of all chemicals and paints, and don't ever friggin forget that brake clean will kill you!!!

[Scootertrash]

I usually have a small table fan blowing when I weld. None of the welding smoke shyte is good for you, brake cleaner or not. ;) If you're gas shield type welding you don't want the fan blowing directly on the part your welding, just indirectly enough to pull the smoke and fumes away.

When I build my new shop I'll have an overhead venting system with a piece of flexible ducting tube I can place close to the welding work on the weld table. ;)

[Dirtcrasher]

Whoa, hang on a moment. Even the "residue" does this same think to you??

It was my understanding, in a story I read quite awhile back, that there was a small amount in liquid form that had not yet fully evaporated, and he encountered just a teenie weenie POOF of smoke when he started tig welding.

Even the minute traces con do this?? Wow, might be time to have your wife try some Tig welding, :lol: I'm just kidding; It sounds like a horror show anyway you slice it....

I've been cleaning aluminum with acetone before I work on my aluminum TIG skills and I've played in solvents and or gas since I was 12 years old. It did concern me having my hands in solvent for many years at the time. I'd order gloves and another employee would tear them and I'd be forced to use the solvent for awhile until the plant "manager" would approve new gloves.

I definitely did not want to continue that circle of impending doom and I'm self employed now so I do and use whatever I want.

In about 1996 I remember that we had gallons of another type of solvent. You could throw a running electrical motor in there and it would just clean it all up. Then we got cut off and tried using A-solve as an industrial mechanic and it didn't work anywhere's near as effective; But I imagine it was much better than the Satan Solvent....