honing a cylinder question

[timtim]

hello

i have a question about honing i have the "3 shoe" honing tool i read i want a 45 degress crosshatch so to get this would run it clockwise a couple of passes THEN counterclock wise a couple of passes iam understanding this right? of course with lots of oil :)


thanks

[cr480r]

shouldnt need to do any reversing.. the angle of the crosshatch comes from the speed that you raise and lower the hone in relation to the speed of the hone..

[timtim]

ahhh ok so just leave it going clockwise and watch my speed when i raise and lower it and the speed of the drill....does any one have any good pictures of a crosshatch that i can compare to ?

thanks

[timtim]

so that faster the drill speed is the faster you have to move in and out? or no?

[tri again]

You can test it in a soup can or something.

Use a variable speed drill and go kinda slow.
Those triple stone types can fly out and rip your hand apart so be careful.

They got dingleball hones now that are safer and easier to use but the triples were used forever.

You'll be ok . They really don't cut metal but more like break the glaze so the rings have a place to seat to.

Consider an 'X' is roughly 45 degrees and a '+' is 90 degrees.

so 1/2 of 90 is what you want.

Just make sure you check your ring gap.
Something like .010" for every inch of stroke and that the ring gaps do not line up.

Check the specs tho.

If it's a lay down engine, you'll obviously want the oil ring gap to be in the up 12 o'clock position.

[cr480r]

You can only move the drill up and down so fast and remain in control of your movements.. so you will probably need to slow the drill speed down to achieve the pattern you want. Is the engine a 2 stroke or 4? 2 strokes can be very tricky with a 3 stone... especially with short stones.. there is probably some good insructional videos on youtube. If you could get an approximate idea of the pace you will figure it out faster

[timtim]

its a 4 stoke good old atc 125m :) and the sevice manuals tells me to have to ring gaps 120 degress

[timtim]

i thought ya want a 45?

[cr480r]

120* refers to the stagger on the end gaps of the rings... thats got nothing to do with crosshatch pattern.. the pattern angle is dictated by the honing

[timtim]

ohh i thought you was taking about that

[timtim]

i should say that other guy was saying something about that

[cr480r]

Just make sure you check your ring gap.
Something like .010" for every inch of stroke and that the ring gaps do not line up..

.004" per inch of bore diameter will usually keep you safe

[timtim]

i think i know what u mean not sure tho can you explain more please?

[tri again]

I had the top of a piston come off..in an airplane engine at 1800 feet.

You need to set your rings inside the cylinder, press them in with the piston so they are in there square and check how far apart the ends of the rings are.

I guess .010" is more for car engines but check specs on the 'world class help' section here.

The ring gap is relative to cylinder bore like CR said. if it gets too tight when it gets hot, it can pull the top of the piston off, believe me.

Staggering the ring ends is just so oil can't really shoot up thru all the layers.

like CR said 120 is safe.

You orig question was about the cross hatch pattern. and that wants to be 45 degrees.

That youtube idea about cylinder hone is great!

You'll know exactly what to do in under 10 seconds.

[timtim]

ahhh ok i see what u mean thanks for explaining that :)

[timtim]

thanks all for the help now its time for me to make a jig to hold that cylinder soild :) thanks again

[cr480r]

like CR said 120 is safe.
that came from his service manual not me


That youtube idea about cylinder hone is great!

You'll know exactly what to do in under 10 seconds.
ya usually lotsa good vids on there.. be careful though.. in the quick search i did for cylinder honing, i found one that was completely wrong.. watch a couple different ones and take note of differences and similarities in technique..

[tri again]

ok, I'm going to find you a manual for the 125m.

Pretty sure it's in the 'world class help' section here on 3ww.

If I don't make it back, something (else) blew up at work.

[cr480r]

I dont need a manual drjoe. and i believe tim already has one. Thanks though

[tri again]

http://www.oscarmayer.net/atc/manuals/

Not sure why I can't find the 'world class help' section on 3ww, maybe it got deleted,
but here's a link
for manuals.

Looks to be 34 megs for your machine.

You can either download it if you have room or just read from it.

I'm not sure how many rings your piston has but if there are 2, make sure the end gaps
are opposite, if there are 3, stagger them equally.

Better yet, see what the manual says.

I took a quick look at page 12 for the 125 and the arrow on the piston wants to point towards exhaust,
that kinda thing so best if you can get to have a look at it all.

I only get so many breaks at work so I'll check back tomorrow and see how yer doin'.

Good point about youtube cylinder honing too.
Some people post stuff to be funny and are not always serious.

Thanks for the heads up. Cr

[timtim]

yes i have the manual also i have been watching youtube video that is what mess me up meaning they all should differnet ways and it confussed me..lol that is why i asked the question... but there is one question i have about the manaul look at page 11 it shows the pictures of the cylinder and some O rings for the head bolts BUT if you look closes it also shows something with the O rings iam not sure what that is?? i do have the o rings but what is the other thing it shows?

thanks

[timtim]

i would assume also that if this is done right it should look nice and new and shine in the cylinder to?

[Dirtcrasher]

I use a cordless drill on low and plenty of thin oil. Your rotation to in/out speed has to be tested a few times. You have to move FAST and spin relatively slow.

They actually recommend a few degrees less than 45, I believe it's 30-35.

I can't see any issue with 45 degrees though........

It may not look "new" but you will see a crosshatch in the cylinder. A home hone job can't take off to much material.

[1984 honda 200s]

i just got my stock 200s bore done 2 weeks ago, there was 4 scratches all the way up the sleeve( wasnt low on compression and didnt burn oil) so i got my cousin to clean it up with a 3 shoe hone. sleeve looks like new but we didnt do any... crosshatching...... i put it all back together and it runs fine... not sure what cross hatching means? i know its swirrles all the way up the sleeve but... whats it for lol

[86'250sx]

I thought you were supposed to go in forward and revese? I did with my snowmobile engine.

[Dirtcrasher]

i just got my stock 200s bore done 2 weeks ago, there was 4 scratches all the way up the sleeve( wasnt low on compression and didnt burn oil) so i got my cousin to clean it up with a 3 shoe hone. sleeve looks like new but we didnt do any... crosshatching...... i put it all back together and it runs fine... not sure what cross hatching means? i know its swirrles all the way up the sleeve but... whats it for lol

Well, they don't tell you to do it for just a publication....... It breaks in your rings properly and if not honed, you will pay for it in the near future..........

[1984 honda 200s]

lol its broken in by now its all stock. its honed but not cross hatched.

[keviinpiter]

Variable speed drill to use a bit slow. The Triple Gem can fly out the type and RIP, in addition to your hands, so be careful. They have been tempered, and now dingle ball safer and easier to use, but uses three times ever.

[Sick200x]

crosshatching provides just enough "roughness" to allow the rings to "break-in", creating a matched seal between the rings and that particular cylinder. It doesn't feel rough, but if you were to magnify it enough, it would look like a bunch of jagged, sharp, peaks and valleys. The rings "break off" the high points and smooth it out for better seating. Thus the term, "breaking-in". It'll hold the compression better, squigee the excess oil better and last longer. It's not rocket science though, 45 degrees is a good goal, give her a try and see how it looks. As is terms of honing to clean up like "1984 honda 200s" did, any hone is going to leave a crosshatch, might not be 45 degrees but some sort of crosshatch has got to be there, crosshatch is basically the marks left behind from the hone, so they're there......unless you found some super super fine polishing stones?? Be sure to change the oil after you get some run time on it, as all those microscopic "broken off peaks" from the cylinder are now in the oil....