Having some fun with the National Product Safety Commission…

[HuffieVA]

On a rainy dreary day, I had to find something to do, so I figured why not spend some quality time conversing with the CPSC.... I'm sure its all been asked before but I had some time to pass...

To: Topka, Tanya
Subject: Mandatoy standards for ATV: Final ruling inquiry

Ms. Topka,

Upon review of certain portions of the CPSC website I have found references pertaining to a “Mandatory Safety Standard” for the introduction/production/distribution of three wheeled ATV’s. However I was unable to find any information on where this standard is located or the date which it is scheduled to be published. As a long time three wheeled ATV enthusiast, collector and restorer it puzzles and concerns me that the temporary restriction on the importation/distribution of such vehicles may in fact in essence be an actual attempt to place a permanent ban on the vehicles through the use of a standard that is not scheduled/intended to be authored.

I am certainly aware of the series of events starting in the mid 1980’s that led to the original agreement to suspend the importation of the vehicles by the agreeing parties (i.e. Honda, Kawasaki, Yamaha, Polaris etc.) for a period of ten years. These events included a great increase in ownership of the vehicles over a short period of time, resulting in many unskilled riders being injured. Many of these injuries have been directly associated with rider error or a misunderstanding of the correct practices required to operate the machines. Many more were simply due to the lack of proper safety gear or being under the influence of alcohol or drugs. I myself have been riding these vehicles since the early 1980’s and have as have many others, watched their numbers wither to the brink of extinction, in fact I actually own more three wheelers than I have seen in person (others than mine) in the past two years. Parts are becoming an issue and many of the existing three wheelers are being literally ridden “until their wheels fall off”. Why you might ask? Because people love them, they are certainly not for everybody, but for the trained and skilled rider their handling characteristics are second to none, their weight is much lower than their four wheeled cousins, their maintenance costs are lower, and because of the placement of the third wheel, they tend to cause less rutting to trails than their four wheeled counterparts potentially making them environmentally friendly, its a win/win situation… A potential improvement to the economy through sales of new vehicles, the potential for a safe off road alternative to four wheelers, the potential for less destruction of the environment thereby allowing more trail systems and additional increases in revenue related to the trail systems and the licensing of the ATV’s.

You may be asking yourself… “Who in their right mind would buy a three wheeler?” well Ms. Topka It’s no secret that three wheelers have suffered the wrath of the media and ridicule over the past twenty five years, but with an unbiased study into ATV related injuries and deaths, I and many others would be surprised if you findings reveal anything greater than rider error or lack of proper safety gear in the majority of the cases and to answer your question… I would certainly buy a few new ones, as my current “Trikes” are all in excess of twenty five years old…

Regardless of your opinion of three wheeled ATV’s please reply with your intentions in reguard to the established standards.

Rodd Hoffman


From: Topka, Tanya
Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2010 7:05 AM
To: Rodd Hoffman
Cc: Jirgl, Justin
Subject: RE: Mandatoy standards for ATV: Final ruling inquiry

Thank you for your inquiry. Part 1420.4 of the CPSA states, “Until a mandatory consumer product safety standard applicable to three-wheel ATVs promulgated pursuant to the CPSC is in effect, new three-wheel ATVs may not be imported into or distributed in commerce in the United States.” This language came straight from Congress when they passed the CPSIA. There are no plans at this time to issue a mandatory standard and the ban remains in effect.

Tanya Topka, Compliance Team Lead (Fast Track and Mechanical Hazards)
U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission
301-504-7594 Fax: 301-504-0359
Use our online form for reporting under Section 15: https://www.cpsc.gov/cgibin/sec15.aspx
For Recall Info: http://www.cpsc.gov/businfo/corrective.html


From: Rodd Hoffman
Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2010 8:06 AM
To: Topka, Tanya
Cc: Jirgl, Justin
Subject: RE: Mandatoy standards for ATV: Final ruling inquiry

Ms. Topka,

Please explain in detail how the commission feels that they are in compliance? If as you stated, and I quote “There are no plans at this time to issue a mandatory standard” when the language approved and handed down by congress clearly states that a standard is required. Is the commission above the confines of the Constitution of the United States whereas they choose to enforce portions of a particular ruling, while making no plans to comply with other portions of the same ruling. This sounds as if it could be directly compared to the former handgun ban in Washington DC whereas guns were effectively banned unless you secured an unattainable permit. Are you familiar with the determined constitutionality of the Supreme Court’s ruling associated with this historical ruling which bears a disturbingly similar resemblance to the commission’s refusal to provide a standard. Perhaps you are not yet aware of the progress related to the authoring of the standard; if that is the case could you kindly provide me with the contact information of the person or persons assigned to the creation of this mandated standard?

Sincerely,

Rodd Hoffman

From: Topka, Tanya [mailto:TTopka@cpsc.gov]
Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2010 8:59 AM
To: Rodd Hoffman
Cc: Jirgl, Justin
Subject: RE: Mandatoy standards for ATV: Final ruling inquiry

There is no requirement to develop such a standard. The ban went into effect immediately after Congress passed the legislation so obviously they felt strongly that a ban was needed. Additionally, the three-wheel ATVs have been banned from manufacture, import, or distribution with the legacy manufacturers since the Consent Decree. The Office of Compliance has enforced this since the agreement went into effect.

Tanya Topka, Compliance Team Lead (Fast Track and Mechanical Hazards)
U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission
301-504-7594 Fax: 301-504-0359
Use our online form for reporting under Section 15: https://www.cpsc.gov/cgibin/sec15.aspx
For Recall Info: http://www.cpsc.gov/businfo/corrective.html


Ms. Topka,
The “Consent Decree” was in force for a period of ten years (i.e. 1988 thru 1998) it was clearly not a ban but more of a generic “Plea Bargin” if you will by the legacy manufacturers to eliminate the possibility of a “Blanket Recall” which is what the CPSC was pushing for at the time. Obviously the damage that the press as well as misinformed individuals have done to the reputation of the three wheeled ATV will likely prevent the legacy manufacturers from ever marketing another three wheeled ATV in this country, however there continues to be a niche market for those that prefer three wheeled ATV’s over the more popular and cumbersome four wheeled variety.
You state that there was an obvious need for the most recent ban and that congress felt it was necessary to address the safety concerns associated with three wheeled ATV’s, with all due respect, it seems apparent that it was also a need for a “Mandatory Standard” as the requirement was included in the exact legislation which you are referring to. Furthermore it’s a fact that there have been no new commercially produced / distributed three wheeled ATV’s in this country for over twenty two years, yet congress saw fit to require the existence of a “Mandatory Standard”, therefore a standard must be brought into existence as government related agencies are bound by law to abide by the rules and regulations set forth by congress just as individuals, private businesses and corporations are, or does the CPSC feel that they are exempt from the bindings of law set forth by congress?
Please provide any and all information which you have available to justify both the moratorium on the sale of new commercially produced three wheeled ATV’s (required via the freedom of information act) as well as any documentation that exempts the CPSC from following the letter of the laws set forth by congress.
In addition, please forward any studies that have been completed that provide the effects that current safety programs designed for the currently produced ATV’s and how they would have affected the safety concerns associated with three wheeled ATV’s prior to the consent decree when no such safety programs were in place. As an American citizen it’s very important to me that restrictions on items such as three wheeled ATV’s are based on fact, rather than remnants of theories sparked from exaggerated reports on popular television news magazines which aired nearly a quarter of a century ago.

Sincerely,
Rodd Hoffman

You will need to submit a request through our Freedom of Information Office for the specific information you requested. Their number is 301-504-7923 or you can do it online or by email cpsc-os@cpsc.gov.

The Consent Decree led into the Voluntary Letters of Undertaking (which are now referred to as Action Plans) and those agreements were only with legacy manufacturers/distributors prior to the CPSIA legislation and mandatory standard. The ban now applies to all 3-wheel ATVs regardless of who manufactures, imports, or distributes the product, so it addresses ATVs made, imported, or distributed by firms that did not have Voluntary Letters of Undertaking (banning all 3-wheel ATVs not just certain firm’s ATVs).

Tanya Topka, Compliance Team Lead (Fast Track and Mechanical Hazards)
U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission
301-504-7594 Fax: 301-504-0359
Use our online form for reporting under Section 15: https://www.cpsc.gov/cgibin/sec15.aspx
For Recall Info: http://www.cpsc.gov/businfo/corrective.html


From: Rodd Hoffman
Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2010 1:59 PM
To: Topka, Tanya
Cc: Jirgl, Justin
Subject: RE: Mandatoy standards for ATV: Final ruling inquiry


Ms. Topka,

As stated in the referenced legislation:

“3. Three-Wheel ATVs

The CPSIA also addresses 3-wheel ATVs. It provides that until the
Commission issues a consumer product safety standard applicable to 3-
wheel ATVs (and the standard goes into effect) ``new 3-wheeled all
terrain vehicles may not be imported into or distributed in commerce in
the United States.'' CPSA Sec. 42(c), as added by CPSIA Sec. 232.
Violation of this restriction is a prohibited act under section
19(a)(1) of the CPSA.”

Please read the second sentence thoroughly, that constitutes a moratorium (i.e. temporary hold or ban) until the what is referred to as the “Commission” which is implied as “The Consumer Product Safety Commission” issues a “Safety Standard”. Please provide the scheduled release date of this document or series of documents which the legislation clearly requires your commission to produce. By not producing the referenced standard the commission is not in compliance with the legislation, and in turn makes it impossible for any individual or firm to fully comply with the legislation. Are you stating that the commission has no intent to comply by issuing a “Safety Standard” for three wheeled ATV’s? Would the commission be willing to enact a written standard authored by a third party?

Rodd Hoffman

As stated previously, you will need to contact the FOIA Office for specific information you request.

Tanya Topka, Compliance Team Lead (Fast Track and Mechanical Hazards)
U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission
301-504-7594 Fax: 301-504-0359
Use our online form for reporting under Section 15: https://www.cpsc.gov/cgibin/sec15.aspx
For Recall Info: http://www.cpsc.gov/businfo/corrective.html

Ms. Topka,

You clearly stated that I would have to pursue a different route to request information through the “Freedom of Information Act” and I fully understand that. However you have not given me a direct answer, as to when the scheduled date is for the release of the “Safety Standards” pertaining to three wheeled ATV’s. I have written you because I was advised that you were in charge of this portion of the department. If I need to contact another individual due to the fact that you are not willing or permitted to answer the question pertaining to the release date of the “Safety Standards” for three wheeled ATV’s please give me their contact information and I will gladly pursue that information from the correct individual as well.

Sincerely,


Rodd Hoffman
.......................

And with that note I hit a dead end

[outnaboutnak]

Great read. Keep up the good work.

[tundrawillie]

Screw the elitist politicians and their lapdogs. I'll build my own trikes.

[Xpress]

Keep it up. Who knows, you might just annoy them enough.. :)

[HoldOnTrike84]

It seems Ms. Topka works inside of this lil box and these challenging questions are making her have to think outside of her comfortable lil box, therefore send any future related queries to this black hole below.

Geez what a headache…what she needs is about 16,000 emails about this topic ;)

[ATCrider42]

I'll email her. I think we all should. Requesting that they write up some safety standard or at least acknowledge that they should do something to address the issue.

[HoldOnTrike84]

I'll email her. I think we all should. Requesting that they write up some safety standard or at least acknowledge that they should do something to address the issue.

I agree and would be happy to.

[Mosh]

Proabably gave that 26 year old college intern a splitting migrane, just before she clocked out, and hit the rush hour traffic jam..

All while she was nestled away in her worlds safest automobile, Volvo, driving perfectly safe, while texting on her cellphone..

[dksix]

I don't understand how it went from the companies listed to all companies? Going by what she is saying it would be illegal to import some of the Russian built trikes I've seen pics of, is that correct? No one can buy of sale any brand of NEW 3 wheeled ATV in the US? How does the company that's selling the new road trikes get by with it? Is it just because there aren't ATV's but built for the street? In that case then someone could build a new trike, make it street legal like a dual sport bike and since it's not an ATV it would be legal, right?

[hang&rattle]

HuffieVA, I greatly respect you and am honored to be a three-wheeler owner with you. Thank you. -Robby.

[ATCeeya]

man I wish I had your writing skills. great read I must say

[NINJA]

Once again your linguistic skills and logic impress me, Rodd. I couldn't think of a better man for the job of hassling the CPSC. Keep up the good work. Who knows, you just might get somewhere with this.

[TommyBoy1971]

I would tell her you contacted the foia guys, and they directed you to contact her for the answer. It is another example of how the associations and personnel that are run by taxpayer money, feel they have no duty or obligation to answer questions pertaining to their job by anyone other than their higher..

[HuffieVA]

-----Original Message-----
From: Topka, Tanya [mailto:TTopka@cpsc.gov]
Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2010 6:51 PM
To: Rodd Hoffman
Cc: Jirgl, Justin
Subject: RE: Mandatoy standards for ATV: Final ruling inquiry

I told you in my first email response that there is no plan at this time to issue a mandatory performance standard for 3-wheel ATVs.

Tanya Topka, Compliance Fast Track Team Lead
U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission
301-504-7594 Fax: 301-504-0359
www.cpsc.gov www.atvsafety.gov

Ms. Topka,
I understand what you stated, I am simply asking, or in simpler terms demanding an answer in regard to who specifically made the decision to not comply with the CPSIA legislation as approved by congress? I believe that this action is in blatant violation of the CPSIA as approved by congress. Its obvious that those who approved (congress) the measure felt it was necessary to include a provision in the legislation for a “Mandatory Standard”. I feel as a citizen of the United States its my right to be informed precisely why the decision to ignore the requirement of the standard was made as well as the names and positions of who made the decision to disregard the duties assigned to the CPSC by congress.

The blatant disregard to the provisions that were approved by congress and signed into law is inexcusable. For a government entity to disregard the rule of law set forth by our elected officials undermines the very foundation of a democracy. Perhaps manufactures can choose to ignore their responsibilities and thumb their noses at the CPSC with no consequence as well, wouldn’t that be nice, can you imagine a world with Lawn Darts, Tag-Free mattresses, and box after box of Preparation H that didn’t contain a warning to remind us not to eat it? Sounds a bit silly doesn’t it? Of course it does, but not unlike the CPSC’s decision to refuse to issue a “Safety Standard” which it is obligated to produce. After all I would assume that the main concern of an agency known as “The Consumer Product Safety Commission” would be related to “Safety”, yet the CPSC is (per your comments) refusing to issue a “Safety Standard” which it has been mandated to produce.

Once again as part of my duty as an American Citizen I am obligated to ask, when the CPSC plans to release the “Mandatory Safety Standard” related to three wheeled ATV’s as mandated by congress?

Your expedited response will be greatly appreciated,

Rodd Hoffman

Which recieved an automated response of:
I am out of the office. I will respond to all emails when I return on Monday.

TO BE CONTINUED...

[95UTShee]

Hats off to what you're doing! You're definitely making her earn her tax dollar supported salary!

[Fungo Wizard]

You are the man! Keep after her, cause you have her dodging some questions she has no answer for. Maybe stirring their pot a little will get the ball rolling. How many emails can we get together to send this lady?

[atc350xer]

Great read and great writing skills Rodd... keep fighting the good fight!

[rbaral233]

oh my gosh! rodd this is amazing... best read to start my day man! we all need to email this chick. lets all type our emails, rodd can proof read and make em sound as good as his all we will bombard her inbox with tons of questions, evidence, and show her how many intelligent, safe, and noble trikers there are waiting and wanting some justice. has anyone else yet sent her an email or just rodd? it seems time for as tobey keith says " a little less talk, alot more action"

[ADOR]

Sweet.........very direct and non threatening. Just how a letter of this type needs to be.

[JasonB]

Damn I feel really dumb after reading such a well written email like that lol I needs moar better learnin skills

[Silverado]

I wonder if the fight is the same in Canada. I am a Scientist not a politician-law minded individual.

[oldskool83]

keep it up mang!

[xxllmm4]

Keep up the good work, and THANKS FOR YOUR EFFORTS!!

[RIDE-RED 250r]

Very impressive communication skills my friend! I may have missed something along the chain of letters, how the heck did they manage to unclude ALL manufacturers of trikes and not just the big 5 that agreed to cease importation? Seems like a heck of a bureaucratic leap to me......


:shiftyeyes:

[HuffieVA]

how the heck did they manage to unclude ALL manufacturers of trikes and not just the big 5 that agreed to cease importation? Seems like a heck of a bureaucratic leap to me......

It was hidden in the "Lead Free Toys Bill", but it is the bureaucratic equivalent of being grabbed by the short and curlys then being lead to the trough and forced to drink their kool aid…

[newrider3]

Her responses remind me of the movie Idiocracy.

"But...Brawndo's got electrolytes." "Yeah, but what are electrolytes?" "...they're what's in Brawndo..."

The CPSIA bill had quite a bit of extra stuff hidden in it that came back to bite a bunch of unrelated industries in the ass.

[ATCrider42]

Have you written your local congress man too asking him to take action against the CPSC? We should all write to our congressman asking him or her to force the CPSC's hand in this matter. This battle will be won with numbers! TO WAR! ...........sorry, i get excited about three wheelers sometimes.

[HuffieVA]

TO BE CONTINUED...

Recieved another response early today...

The CPSIA does not require the Commission to issue a standard for 3 wheel ATVs, but rather says that as long as there is no such standard 3 wheel ATVs may not be imported into or distributed in the U.S. As the Commission stated in the preamble to it’s NPR, the Commission does not believe that a standard for 3 wheel ATVs is feasible. Therefore, it is not working on developing one and the moratorium in the CPSIA applies.



Tanya Topka, Compliance Team Lead (Fast Track and Mechanical Hazards)
U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission
301-504-7594 Fax: 301-504-0359
Use our online form for reporting under Section 15: https://www.cpsc.gov/cgibin/sec15.aspx
For Recall Info: http://www.cpsc.gov/businfo/corrective.html

Which was followed up with...

Ms. Topka,
Please provide the name of the person or group of individuals responsible for determining that such a standard is not feasible, along with the documentation of the findings of the investigation. As simply basing a decision on a quarter century old case of public panic is not very scientific. It appears through public record that hundreds of millions of dollars have been allocated to the CPSC over the years, please disclose the amount of these funds that have been associated with the determination that a standard is allegedly unfeasible.
In addition, for sake of argument you state that there is no requirement for the Commission to produce a standard although the CPSC is responsible for such a standards implementation and you also agree that the CPSIA clearly references that a standard is required. Is the CPSC willing to review a standard written by a third party?
As I stated before, public opinion of the three wheeled ATV was greatly affected by non scientific reports created by television news magazines in the mid 1980’s, I would like to think that with the passing of a quarter of a century that the CPSC could not be easily swayed by the media, in particular media reports that date back a quarter of a century, and I am asking for confirmation of any studies being done on the concept of a three wheeled ATV since the mid 1980’s. I believe that it is a safe assumption that there is a large number of associates that work for the CPSC that were in fact born after the original consent decree was implemented, and that a large majority were not employed there when the original studies were completed. With that being said it’s an undeniable fact that technology has increased over the past twenty five years, that along with a better understanding of the ATV safety programs that have been implemented since the consent decree began will allow a more accurate analysis of the three wheeled ATV. If you review the facts leading up to the consent decree many of the concerns were that no safety training was offered, no age/weight recommendations in relation to ATV size had been officially suggested. In essence what amounted to public ignorance of the machines led to the great public outcry of the 1980’s. The issues involving safety concerns have been generally covered with the implementation of safety programs related to ATV’s in general and yet the standoffish nature of your boilerplate responses to my inquiries regarding the safety standard for three wheeled ATV’s leaves an impression of a biased opinion of them without any recent scientific or statistical documentation to support your statements. It appears that ignorance of the machine by the public in general lead to the consent decree and refusal to examine the safety programs in relation to ATV’s in general by the CPSC is just an attempt to further sweep the ignorance under the rug.
After all, and by all means please correct me if I am not correct, but as part of the consent decree was it not agreed that the three wheeled version of the ATV had no adherent design flaw, if that is the case, how can it be determined unfeasible for the CPSA or a third party to produce a mandatory safety standard?

Rodd Hoffman

[Fungo Wizard]

Man you continue to amaze me with the depth of your letter. You have what I like to call "common sense" questions for her, but the commission keeps coming back with their robotic jargon to every question. Keep after her, and let us know what we need to do to help the fight.

[atctim]

great writing Todd. It amazes me that with all the tax dollars and man-power the CPSC gets that they simply pick and choose what is safe for us lemmings rather than to conclude any scientific studies. Keep on them about this - I think it is just another agency that has gotten way to "big for their brithches"!

[TimSr]

Maybe stirring their pot a little will get the ball rolling. How many emails can we get together to send this lady?


Be careful what you wish for. Once you get the ball rolling, you might not like which way the ball rolls.

[Billy Golightly]

Be careful what you wish for. Once you get the ball rolling, you might not like which way the ball rolls.

Is there anything but negativity in you anymore?

[HuffieVA]

Be careful what you wish for. Once you get the ball rolling, you might not like which way the ball rolls.

I don't see a lot of directions that the ball could roll, I'm guessing your hinting at the result being an outright ban (including existing trikes) however they would have to substantially prove that there was a safety concern to the general public (besides the consent decree basically blocked a recall and allowed the "no design flaw" verbiage) I don’t believe they would have the ability to provide any substantial proof without a new "investigation", with the majority of trikes either resting/rotting away in barns, garages, fields or in the hands of people who actually know how to ride them they would look (on paper / percentage wise) safer than quads.

The ball could roll towards a "required standard" which of course could contain more "crap" verbiage to make the production of them unfeasible

The ball could roll towards applying the same standards to three and four wheelers

Regardless, due to popular opinion (although not popular here) there is little to no chance of them being produced by a major player such as Honda, the best we could hope for would be something along the lines if Tiger, outsourcing the engines and just building the chassis, not that that doesn’t exist on a limited basis through "Custom/experimental/conversion" loop holes... remember nobody can tell you what you can or cannot build, just what you can sell to the public. "Public" being the key word, if you were a member of a club or organization you would not be "Public" and the ban does not apply... There are a 1000 ways around it, but it sure would be nice to not have to live life searching for loopholes in the law, it makes you feel like a crooked politician after awhile...

[thestud25]

.......if Tiger, outsourcing the engines and just building the chassis, not that that doesn’t exist on a limited basis through "Custom/experimental/conversion" loop holes... remember nobody can tell you what you can or cannot build, just what you can sell to the public. "Public" being the key word, if you were a member of a club or organization you would not be "Public" and the ban does not apply... There are a 1000 ways around it, but it sure would be nice to not have to live life searching for loopholes in the law, it makes you feel like a crooked politician after awhile...

I totally agree with this statement. You can get away with alot of things through clubs and membership organization. Ie, smoking indoors while there is a city or statewide ban on such things. You must be a member to drink in some bars(Utah). Right Ninja. I would be more than willing to start an email campaign to "Blast/Overwhelm" the person you are corresponding with. My company has ran very similar(successful) email, letter, and fax campaigns and have seen very positive results.

[RIDE-RED 250r]

They will take our firearms away from us long before they come knocking on our doors to confiscate our trikes....Think about this, firearms' only purpose is to kill, we still have them. Trikes are a type of vehicle, they may ban production and/or sale of them to the public for whatever BS reasons, but an outright ban on ownership is far fetched at best....just my opinion.....

[Louis Mielke]

Be careful what you wish for. Once you get the ball rolling, you might not like which way the ball rolls.

I'm gonna have to side with TimSR on this. And I don't really see his statement as negative. This is something that should be left alone because right now we have a happy little existence were they (the powers that be) leave us alone. I hate to think that something like this could make them (the powers that be) give us a harder look and possibly ruin our happy little existence. There is no law against us, but there easily could be. And anyone who says it won't or can't happen your dead wrong.

[Dirtcrasher]

^ agreed!!

[Shorty]

I'm gonna have to side with TimSR on this. And I don't really see his statement as negative. This is something that should be left alone because right now we have a happy little existence were they (the powers that be) leave us alone. I hate to think that something like this could make them (the powers that be) give us a harder look and possibly ruin our happy little existence. There is no law against us, but there easily could be. And anyone who says it won't or can't happen your dead wrong.

I second that.

[hang&rattle]

I'm gonna have to side with TimSR on this. And I don't really see his statement as negative. This is something that should be left alone because right now we have a happy little existence were they (the powers that be) leave us alone. I hate to think that something like this could make them (the powers that be) give us a harder look and possibly ruin our happy little existence. There is no law against us, but there easily could be. And anyone who says it won't or can't happen your dead wrong. Of course I have respect for both of you, but totally disagree. Stand. Always stand. What went down with the gov't. (b.s.) ban was wrong and unconstitutional. Immoral and unethical. I have lost a few jobs and court battles standing for what is right. Always stand on what is right and not give in to a whisper mentality. And the gov't has bigger fish to fry. There is no profit in a law against 3-wheelers. Law makers will only go after something if they profit by either power or money, that is a fact. Took away trikes, and are working on taking the freedom of religion, speech, and guns. Always stand.

[Louis Mielke]

While I agree with you on most of the things you've listed, as you've said we'll just have to disagree because I feel this is a battle we've already lost.

Kinda like the South. The South lost the civil war, they were left to remember their heritage, if people wanted to they could continue to make a fuss about it but instead they're left with what little pride of the past that is left. I think it foolish to stir up a war we already lost only for us to loose it again and possibly to a worse degree than we already have.

[Dirtcrasher]

They don't like trikes, they feel they are unstable. Any relative arguement is a mute point but may bring about the idea to keep us from registering or riding them altogether.

Were just turning the corner with hybrids and they get better every day. Lets enjoy them locally or at an event unless someone is in politics and chums it up with these guys.

Were Outlaws, leave us as we are. Imagine if we all had to get dirtbikes or quads, now that would suk!!

[hang&rattle]

While I agree with you on most of the things you've listed, as you've said we'll just have to disagree because I feel this is a battle we've already lost.

Kinda like the South. The South lost the civil war, they were left to remember their heritage, if people wanted to they could continue to make a fuss about it but instead they're left with what little pride of the past that is left. I think it foolish to stir up a war we already lost only for us to loose it again and possibly to a worse degree than we already have. Ya, you are right, but I guess I want some admittance to wrong that was done. I don't feel they will battle. They won't even give us the time of day. And there are only a few thousand of us, but still, what has been wronged needs to be kept out in the open. I am still proudly southern, still proud to believe in Jesus, and still proud to own a three-wheeler. Just sayin' my friend, to never stop the pursuit of what's right, so I agree with Huffie's pursuit, his stand.

[HuffieVA]

I appreciate the other point of view, but in reality they have already set in place the means to make them disappear over time, with few exceptions ten maybe fifteen years down the road they will be nonexistent not counting trailer queens and museum relics…
Some of you guys do sound, perhaps not negative, but definitely passive, giving in and giving up hope at getting what you want because it doesn’t look easy or even possible, so I apologize to those who feel that this can cause any harm, I may have raised myself for the most part but I believe in standing up for what I think is right, whether or not it’s an easy path… to what extent do I stand? Well I’ve gotten a resisting arrest charge over a blown tail light (because the trailpro wouldn’t write himself a ticket for a blown headlight) and I made the 6 & 11 o’clock news once when my kids middle school decided to ban hooded sweatshirts a few years ago but I beat that resisting arrest charge and my kids wore hoodies to school after wards as well… So now they ride trikes and bikes, and I would like them to be able to do so as long as they like, I may not get anywhere and if some of you are right I guess I could make it worse but you cant win them all and at least I will be able to say that I tried, its better to try and loose than wish you tried later

[TrailerRider]

I agree about pushing the enevelope but in this situation it needs to be pushed. Like stated already gov only cares for what makes them richer. It would cost them more money then it is worth to inact some kind of ban that forces us to give up the trikes. Funds are being scrutinized more then ever with the current economy. For example look at the local city recently in the news for paying their police chief 475,000 more then LA police chief and they have 3.8 Million people. Council members work part time being payed close to 100,000 a year. Link to story (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-07-20/california-official-s-800-000-salary-in-city-of-38-000-triggers-protests.html) The revenu from parts, possible new bikes, insurance, registration for new 3 wheelers more out ways the cost of recalling every trike ever made or the ones left. A standard would open a whole new revenu source.

I requested everything CPSC had on 3 wheeled ATVS awhile back. I gave a copy of the data to Billy. It has everything you are asking for. PM Bill or Me and one of us can get you the data and you can have more ammo to prove your points. I have said it before and will say it again, there is some back office dealings going on here. Also someone with your writing skills should forward all the email correspondence you have had. Use the media to your advantage. The media loves a good juicy story about gov screwing everyone.

Great read. I look farward to more. :)

[beets442]

Is this an effort to get a manufacturer to start building 3 wheelers? I'm all for it!!!
I don't mind ribbing someone about what should be right, but I hope it doesn't backfire either....Beets

[fabiodriven]

I second that.

Actually, you thirded it.

[Xpress]

I'd rather go down with a fight than I would just standing there.

Even if this does stir the pot in the wrong direction, there's no way in hell they're getting my machines from me.

[fabiodriven]

Even if this does stir the pot in the wrong direction, there's no way in hell they're getting my machines from me.

This much I can agree with. "From my cold, dead hands"

[hang&rattle]

^Gun in one hand, twist throttle in the other!?

[greenhuman]

Thumb throttle.

[hang&rattle]

Tecate's have twist throttles, both fabiodriven and Xpress (me too) have Tecates.

[Xpress]

^Well, I don't have one yet :p

But it's getting a thumb. :beer:

[HuffieVA]

I'l make sure the "final safety standard" does'nt specify throttle type...:D

[harryredtrike]

two men in one man leave,now get in the cage

[bobotech]

Is this an effort to get a manufacturer to start building 3 wheelers? I'm all for it!!!

I don't think you would ever see any of the big manufactures even considering building new trikes even if the NPSC were to make a 180 on their views on trikes and say that they are the most stable and safest off road ATV ever due to liability lawsuit concerns.

[sixpackrt]

Great read. Keep it going can't wait to read more.

[Xpress]

I don't think you would ever see any of the big manufactures even considering building new trikes even if the NPSC were to make a 180 on their views on trikes and say that they are the most stable and safest off road ATV ever due to liability lawsuit concerns.

I wouldn't say that.... We don't really know what the core of the companies have going on in their classified files...

[TimSr]

I'd rather go down with a fight than I would just standing there.

Even if this does stir the pot in the wrong direction, there's no way in hell they're getting my machines from me.

So you want to go pick another fight with CPSC? How did that go last time? "This isnt about "going down without a fight". We already went down with a fight about 20 years ago. Did you learn nothing from that? Im all for standing up to bullies, but once the bully kicks your butt, takes your lunch money and moves on, its kind of foolish to get up, chase him down, and tell him he missed the $10 bill you had hidden in your shoe, and demand he give you permission to keep it.

CPSC is an angency of career appointees, not electees, who do not have to answer to political pressure. They are immune to political activism, and public pressure by design. Congress and the president have no control over them. They answer to no one. They can do what they want. They are one of many government rouge agencies. They are above the law.

There is nothing to be gained from this fight you want to pick. You think if a bunch of guys send nasty emails to some low level career bureaucrat, she will say "yeah, I guess you're right, Ill talk with my superiors and have this changed", and then Honda will get word, and start tooling up an all new ATC line so they can sell a couple dozen, and then retry the same case in the court of public opinion yet again and lose another fortune? Honda could have continued to make these and sell them all over the world (except USA), but they didnt. Why? Honda, Yamaha, and Kawasaki backed down from a letigious fight with the US government. They didnt think it was worth it for the likely outcome. You think they want back in it?

When a bully kicks your butt and takes your lunch money, and moves on, and you go back and irritate him, and flaunt what he did not take the first time, all you're going to get is a second beatdown, worse than the first and confiscation of what you have left.

They will not take your trikes, but they can make it nearly impossible to ride them anywhere. We have a small niche market, and enough smalltime MFG's of new trike conversions right in the trike community to fulfill all demand, while staying unnoticed and under the radar. Call attention to that, and they will squash it like a bug. We run local races as a novelty class for spectator entertainment. Pull it into the view of CPSC (and Obamacare) and watch it disappear.

People have a right to choose unwinable battles and destroy themselves, but what some are suggesting in this thread could cause dire consequences for all of us, and for what? So somebody can say that rather than live unnoticed by the federal government with the current infringements, they decided to destroy it all for everyone for the sake of "going down fighting"?

If you want a new trike, and can actually pay for one, contact Tionesta Trikes, TPC Trikes, or Jason Hall among others. Honda will never, ever make you one again. Get over it. If you call too much attention of CPSC to the matter, you wont even have those options any more.

I dont participate in much discussion on here. As you can see by the first reponse, my opinions arent much welcomed, but what I see here is a proposal to do something that will undermine what some of us have done, and are still doing, years of hard work, and I am appealing to those who love the sport to think things through thoroughly, and their possible consequences, and not do further damage. "All or nothing" may be a worthwhile gamble to some, but nobody has the moral right to make that decision, and make those possible sacrifices for everyone. Please dont make me a CPSC target.

[Louis Mielke]

So you want to go pick another fight with CPSC? How did that go last time? "This isnt about "going down without a fight". We already went down with a fight about 20 years ago. Did you learn nothing from that? Im all for standing up to bullies, but once the bully kicks your butt, takes your lunch money and moves on, its kind of foolish to get up, chase him down, and tell him he missed the $10 bill you had hidden in your shoe, and demand he give you permission to keep it.

CPSC is an angency of career appointees, not electees, who do not have to answer to political pressure. They are immune to political activism, and public pressure by design. Congress and the president have no control over them. They answer to no one. They can do what they want. They are one of many government rouge agencies. They are above the law.

There is nothing to be gained from this fight you want to pick. You think if a bunch of guys send nasty emails to some low level career bureaucrat, she will say "yeah, I guess you're right, Ill talk with my superiors and have this changed", and then Honda will get word, and start tooling up an all new ATC line so they can sell a couple dozen, and then retry the same case in the court of public opinion yet again and lose another fortune? Honda could have continued to make these and sell them all over the world (except USA), but they didnt. Why? Honda, Yamaha, and Kawasaki backed down from a letigious fight with the US government. They didnt think it was worth it for the likely outcome. You think they want back in it?

When a bully kicks your butt and takes your lunch money, and moves on, and you go back and irritate him, and flaunt what he did not take the first time, all you're going to get is a second beatdown, worse than the first and confiscation of what you have left.

They will not take your trikes, but they can make it nearly impossible to ride them anywhere. We have a small niche market, and enough smalltime MFG's of new trike conversions right in the trike community to fulfill all demand, while staying unnoticed and under the radar. Call attention to that, and they will squash it like a bug. We run local races as a novelty class for spectator entertainment. Pull it into the view of CPSC (and Obamacare) and watch it disappear.

People have a right to choose unwinable battles and destroy themselves, but what some are suggesting in this thread could cause dire consequences for all of us, and for what? So somebody can say that rather than live unnoticed by the federal government with the current infringements, they decided to destroy it all for everyone for the sake of "going down fighting"?

If you want a new trike, and can actually pay for one, contact Tionesta Trikes, TPC Trikes, or Jason Hall among others. Honda will never, ever make you one again. Get over it. If you call too much attention of CPSC to the matter, you wont even have those options any more.

I dont participate in much discussion on here. As you can see by the first reponse, my opinions arent much welcomed, but what I see here is a proposal to do something that will undermine what some of us have done, and are still doing, years of hard work, and I am appealing to those who love the sport to think things through thoroughly, and their possible consequences, and not do further damage. "All or nothing" may be a worthwhile gamble to some, but nobody has the moral right to make that decision, and make those possible sacrifices for everyone. Please dont make me a CPSC target.


I support this fully. I would suggest everyone do that same and listen to the wisdom and experience of this post.

[oldskool83]

the less attention you can draw to yourself the more fun you can have....that goes with anything. id stop pissing into the wind and lay low and go ride.

[HuffieVA]

Back in school if a bully kicked my butt, you could be dam sure I devised a way to kick his twice as bad, even if it took more than one try, and even if I didn’t succeed I never gave up or cowered chanting "please don't hit me again, please don't hit me again" How did that work out? I must have misunderstood the "pessimist" reference in your signature I would have thought you had some fight left in you.

They cannot openly ban a product that they have accepted as a "non flawed design", they can only hide it in language crafted like it is in the "lead law" otherwise it would simply say "from this point forward all three wheeled ATV's are officially banned" but it doesn’t say that does it?

I don’t know what you are referring too as an 11 year dedication to a waste of time but apparently at one time you were dedicated to a fight someone else didn’t agree with, I certainly don’t mind constructive criticism or even a good disagreement or argument if you will, but your response shows more bitterness, pessimism and fear than fact in my opinion

[hang&rattle]

One of the problems with a discussion, is an argument is posted about something, is misread & misunderstood. Everyone needs to read carfully what was individually posted. Huffie knows he will not bring trikes back into production by the major manufacturers. What Huff is commenting on is a battle between right and wrong. And it appears as if Huff is educated in his approach. I took business law and other law classes in school to help me understand, because if you don't know your rights, you don't have any. Huffie is standing for my rights, thank you my friend. The NPSC needs to be exposed (and do a computer search, they have been sued and exposed before). If Bill Gates were a trike enthusiest and had a mulltimillion dollar lawyer, then national coverage would bring out similar points that Huffie made. And they WILL NOT waste there time on doing a full, permanent ban, the major manufactures were moving on to the high volume sale of quads. I can see the point of TimSr and agree on 'Be careful', but I don't see Huffie backing out of the kitchen when it gets too hot. It will not effect my ownership and operation of 3-wheelers. And in other posts I stated I don't live by "what if's'. 'What if' you get cancer? 'What if' terrorists trigger a nuclear bomb in NY? 'What if' the npsc goes after a few thousand 3-wheeler owners? Also agree with TimSr that the npsc is a joke. A political powetrippin' job to act like a bully. The U.S. Gov't got spanked by Howard Hughs, remember rowe vs. wade and it's reversal and re-reversal, and I am glad our forefathers, after havin there butts kicked by the 'bully' english, didn't give up their lunch money and took a second and third beatdown untill they DID when our rights to freedom. I don't want a new trike, like the fact that mine is rare. I do however want the ban exposed so the truth can be reveiled to the general public. Does everone believe that the cpsc (npsc) mislead and lied to the American public about 3-wheelers? I do feel they are accountable. I fought the Department of family services in a custody battle. They accually changed court documents and set forth false accusations against me and tried to have me thrown into prison for exposing them. The judge seen the laws broken by the social workers (in their quest for power) and everyone of them were fired from that office. I nearly went to prison, but won my kids and got custody and they got there's. Stand, always stand.

[Lock]

Interesting thoughts on both sides of this discussion. One of the best threads on this board. However, I'm throwing my vote in favor of letting the sleeping dog lie. I'm not a longtime 3WW regular so please don't bash me too badly, but here are my thoughts.

What is the point pursuing this course of action? What is it that is hoped to be gained?

Exposure of a gov't conspiracy to eliminate 3 wheelers in the late 80's... LOL.

Let's imagine a time machine where we can go back and undo the original ban in the 80's. Fast forward to 2010 in this alternate reality, and I'd bet the ATV landscape doesn't look much different than the reality we live in today.
Why, you ask? For the average person, a quad (or side by side) is a better choice of ATV. The general public would have made 3 wheelers obsolete regardless of the government's actions. Granted, we may have seen 3 wheelers produced into the mid 90's without the ban, but I still feel that for the majority of people that I see riding ATV's, they would have chosen a quad over a 3 wheeler since they are easier to ride. I don't think anyone can realistically argue against that, even if you love your 3 wheeler. Most of us not only have 3 wheelers, but we have quads and dirt bikes as well, so we know that a 3 wheeler requires more skill to ride than a quad.

In my opinion, we are at a natural evolution where 3 wheelers (with, or without the ban) would no longer be produced. (off topic, but similiar situation: How many new 2 stroke ATV's do we see today, eh?) Perhaps we'd have larger OEM parts support than we do today, but there is no way that any of the big manufacturers will retool and start up production of new 3 wheelers if this course of action leads to a repeal of the existing ban.

I do fear that too much attention could backfire on us. Just yesterday I saw the CPSC is requiring Graco to recall 2 million strollers produced through 2007 because they pose a risk of strangulation to the child. Basically, the strollers are fine, but if the parents don't strap in their kid, the kid can slide down and get caught between the stroller and some cross bar, which poses a risk of strangulation.

Right now, you're frowning at the monitor and thinking to yourself "what does a stupid stroller have to do with 3 wheelers"? Basically, here is an out of production product (models produced through '07) that is perfectly safe when used correctly that is still being banned and recalled. It doesn't seem like such a stretch to apply this same scenario to our 3 wheelers. Sure they are 20+ years old, but if the CPSC has statistics showing they still pose a risk to the public's safety, what would stop them from somehow recalling them or limiting their use? Someone already said the CPSC is above the law and doesn't answer to Congress or the President. So if that's true, why push them other than to make a point?

Instead, I see a lot of talent that I'd like to see pointed at a real issue that currently impacts all of us: land closure. Let's funnel our energies to reopen closed areas, and to make new areas to ride. Being stuck in ORV parks, stuffed with riders zipping around everywhere, does not make for a safe situation vs 20 years ago when I could go ride in private forests and state land where I'd be lucky to run into another vehicle the entire day.

Besides, with no land to ride, this thread's core issue is moot. 3 wheelers, quads and side x sides will just be dust collecting garage queens, and a reminder of a happier era.

[Xpress]

When a bully kicks your butt and takes your lunch money, and moves on, and you go back and irritate him, and flaunt what he did not take the first time, all you're going to get is a second beatdown, worse than the first and confiscation of what you have left.

Bull trailprotrailprotrailprotrailpro, I don't let anyone bully me down, and anybody who knows me in person knows to not mess with me.

If anybody is going to be kicking butts, it's me.

See, this doesn't quite stack up as a good comparison.


They will not take your trikes, but they can make it nearly impossible to ride them anywhere.

I'm not worried about that. Where I live, cops don't care if you're on a bmx bike, or a motorcycle, they just don't care. ATV laws where I live are more lenient, and we are free to ride around during normal day to day activities.

Where I DO ride out in the desert, nobody frequents, and that's evident by the lack of tire tracks.

[Mosh]

THEY (the big 3-4 companies) WILL NEVER BUILD 3 WHEELERS AGAIN..Ever!

Please read that 3 times and let it sink in.

It does not matter what is stricken from past decisions or laws.
There is no market to even justify the cost of tooling up to make a new machine, especially in this bogus economy.
If you were Honda or Yamaha, already struggling to sell ATV's and dirtbikes now, would you invest how many millions in engineering, factory set-up and what not to make a run of trikes?
To sell what, maybe 1000 units?
If you say you would invest that, then that is why you do not own the company..

My point is, there are guys that will build trikes in moderen form right now.
I dont see 1000's of peeps lining up to buy them..Not becuase they are not a good product, but most people do not have any money.
40% of this forum lately seems to be kids, that drug a 110 out from grandpa's garage for FREE, and just wanted something to ride.
Which also seems to be the people that cant be realists, in recognizing the fact that new trikes are not going to be lucrative to produce.
Even the guys that build these hybrids for private sales are probably not making much profit at all, if any, by time it is all done.
They are doing it for the love of the hobbie,and the desire of a few select peeps that will buy one.

There is at least 4-5 privateers building new machines..and aside from a few sales, I dont see anyone on these forums lining up and smacking down the cash to own one.
So ask yourself this..
If the laws were revoked and IF Honda built a new Hi-po trike for the cost of say, $6500.00 plus tax.....
Would you honestly go buy one tomorrow? Would 50,000 people today, go shell out that money for a new trike?

I dont think I saw a line of 50,000 people in Front of TPC's shop, or Halls Performance this year, or last year combined...?????
The option is already there, but less than a handfull of trike riders are buying now..

Seriously..It takes 2-4 months just to get 20-30 people to buy new fenders in a group order for the price of 300 bucks..for a machine that already exists..
I dont believe for 1 second that all the major corps, could even sell 20,000 new trikes in one year combined.

[Xpress]

Sales are down on everything right now. The local motorcycle shops aren't selling much, because people are buying used gear for cheap, that works just as good as the newest models. Talking with one of their employees, they said they're lucky to sell a few ATV's and motorcycles a month. They're making all of their profit off of riding gear, or parts and such.

[thestud25]

Very good point Mosh. However, I do believe that if there were no restrictions on Manufacturing and selling 3 wheeled machines, there would be alot more "Privateer" builders out there. That would drive down the cost, build interest from part suppliers and may ignite a flame for new/old trike riders. I talk to people on a daily basis that still have the misconception that it is Illegal to own, operate, and sell three-wheelers! That is how misleading the Ban was/is. The mass public does not know about 3WW, org or any other sites dedicated to 3 wheelers. So, they are ignorant to the fact that A.) these machines are not illegal, B.) there are small "Privateers" building new machines, and C.) if operated within the intended purpose these machines are no more dangerous than dirtbikes, quads, etc!

I am not a dreamer thinking the Big 3/4 will start rolling out new machines, but I am a realists with knowledge that states if a Market presents a need(new trikes), then people will start to fill the need.

[Louis Mielke]

I'm not worried about that. Where I live, cops don't care if you're on a bmx bike, or a motorcycle, they just don't care. ATV laws where I live are more lenient, and we are free to ride around during normal day to day activities.

Where I DO ride out in the desert, nobody frequents, and that's evident by the lack of tire tracks.



So you only care about yourself? So as long as you're safe and you can ride its just fine and dandy that possibly everyone else in other states with other laws and other law enforcement officials can loose their privileged to ride? You don't care about anyone else but yourself I suppose?

Dude you are an example of the type of people that ruin our sport. So narrow minded and self serving. The greater good means nothing to you does it?

How old are you like 13? Because that's the way you're talking, like a 13 year old kid who only sees what's right in front of his eyes instead of the big picture.


And to anyone who thinks that there's some kind of "market" or "demand" that could possibly materialize out of thin air. You're all jacked because there isn't. No wait I'll correct myself, if there is it's so freaking small that anyone who might even considering meeting the "demand" would go belly up for lack of sales. FURTHER MORE: THE ONLY PEOPLE WHO EVER TALK ABOUT THREE WHEELERS GETTING MANUFACTURED AGAIN ARE PEOPLE WHO DON'T HAVE ANY MONEY TO BUY ONE.

Stop undermining the people on this board who habitually pony up the money and make things happen, or talk to the tracks and organize events, or the people who put Trikefest together, or refurbish seats, or produce parts.

[thestud25]

And to anyone who thinks that there's some kind of "market" or "demand" that could possibly materialize out of thin air. You're all jacked because there isn't. No wait I'll correct myself, if there is it's so freaking small that anyone who might even considering meeting the "demand" would go belly up for lack of sales. FURTHER MORE: THE ONLY PEOPLE WHO EVER TALK ABOUT THREE WHEELERS GETTING MANUFACTURED AGAIN ARE PEOPLE WHO DON'T HAVE ANY MONEY TO BUY ONE.

Stop undermining the people on this board who habitually pony up the money and make things happen, or talk to the tracks and organize events, or the people who put Trikefest together, or refurbish seats, or produce parts.

I don't want to get into an argument over there being a demand or there not being a demand for new trikes. However, we need to look at the overall picture here. Parts are getting harder and harder to find/buy. The dedicated rider/restorer/owner much like yourself and I will always be willing to hunt them down and pay the money needed to attain them. I think that is evident here with about 70% of the members. Everyone was on board when the letter was written and the phone calls were made to Honda. Why not collectively come up with a way to provide a means to continue this hobby/lifestyle without paying out the nose? I personally love buying, building, and riding my 3 wheelers and does the vast majority of people on here. it is evident that people are willing to reproduce parts to keep the machines alive. It is also evident that people are willing to produce and buy "New trikes." Albeit in low numbers. We are fighting amongst ourselves, instead of coming up with way to keep our passion alive.

Key the lovey dovey BS comments........now!

[HuffieVA]

THEY (the big 3-4 companies) WILL NEVER BUILD 3 WHEELERS AGAIN..Ever!

It wasn't my intended vision... to have a "1 trike per household minimum" but more of a "Hey (CPSC), now that you have basically eliminated an entire form of recreational vehicle based on skewed/biased information why not come clean and admit you were wrong"... will it make parts available? likely not, would small custom shops like TPC have an easier time marketing their conversions? perhaps but that doesn’t mean that they will become popular and sell 1000 a year... If I lead anyone into thinking Honda has a boat load of 250r's waiting at Customs for the ban to be lifted, I'm sorry, hell we can't even get most of the manufacturers to import full sized 2strokes any more... This thread came about because I was reading the portion of the lead ban legislation that pertained to ATV's and the way they backdoored a technical ban of three wheelers into it... I pissed mo off so I wrote a letter, the boiler plate / textbook responses I got pissed me off more so I continued to respond... In order to not sound like a pesky idiot I read more and more into the available information about the consent decree and other available info and guess what, yepp ... more pissed, then I posted it here thinking that some people would get a shred of enjoyment out of it... Do I think it will create a time warp and put us back to 1984? No, but will i continue to stand my ground and believe that it was a biased decision based on public panic? Yes, Will it make any difference whatsoever? Probably not, but I don’t mind being brutally honest with someone, in this case it's the CPSA... I may be a little bullheaded and set in my ways but I've never been one to take a certin path just because the guy next to me took it, I always take the one I think is right and hey sometimes I'm wrong, but being hated for who I am is a thousand times better than being liked for who I'm not, unfortunately in todays world that makes me somewhat of an outcast

[TimSr]

Bull trailprotrailprotrailprotrailpro, I don't let anyone bully me down, and anybody who knows me in person knows to not mess with me.

If anybody is going to be kicking butts, it's me.

See, this doesn't quite stack up as a good comparison.


You're right. Its not a good comparison. The bully we are talking about is a federal agency with thousands of federal agents its its disposal, and a budget in the billions of dollars. But then, if we are going to use the literal definition of the bully we are talking about, it does not diminish my point, but does makes your post above look rather silly. After you kick the CPSC's butt, maybe you can take on the IRS for us.

[ATCrider42]

This for "HuffieVA." Would putting a lot of the parts for these older ATC's back into production and distributing them in the U.S. again be illegal or out of the realm of possibility?
It seems like we could see a lot more ATC's being revived or even assembled piece by piece if Honda and Yamaha atleast produced all the parts still. It would be cool to see "hard to find" parts readily available for a reasonable price then people could quit worry about buying a whole machine and start piecing together a whole new machine by using whatever old parts you have and combining with new. Maybe this wouldn't make any fiscal since but it seems like a good loop hole that would best suit everyone.
So my vote is for Honda putting abunch of parts back into production. Or building new parts that would could be retrofitted for the old stuff.

[hang&rattle]

I am really enjoying this thread. And in a strange sense agree in certain aspects from every post. This is total learning. And really this isn't a debate for anyone confident in there post. This is actually a good discussion to know who knows 'what' for 'what' information or route to take. Don't be a bunch of whining bitches though guys, we are products of the 70's and 80's and will stand behind our mindsets. What Huffie's original post was about was standing up for the rights and pointing out the lawlessness and exposing it. NO ONE THINKS 3-WHEELERS WILL BE PRODUCED FOR REAL. Don't know how it got off base on someone expressing hope in a joking way. Any documentation of the cspc working on a true, total ban making it illegal to ride or own a 3-wheeler? Another 'what if'. I don't hide in a bomb shelter because 'what if' a Muslim has a bomb at the local air force base. Just the facts are helpful here. Huffie dissected the letters and laws using facts and knowledge, not 'what if' they take away Christmas. And with what TimSr said above that is correct, but as I stated, we are small fish in a very big ocean. They have bigger more profitable products to harass. But keep posting, because I think a few are actually on to something and I want to learn more, facts are coming out all over, knowledge is power.

[RIDE-RED 250r]

TimSR: you make a very good point in a well put together way. And i agree with you as far as the waking of the sleeping giant so to speak. I still dont think there is much anyone could do to spur some sort of confiscation decree by the CSPC. We are just to small a percentage of the overall powersports community. HOWEVER, i very much agree that regardless if the CSPC ever did retract their ill-informed (to put it lightly) position on the trikes, none of the major brands would ever start reproducing them. On one hand it would be nice to see some level of correction of the record on the bad rap trikes got back then, but on the other, you are spot on, why stir the pot. HUFFIE: by no means do i disagree with your digging in a little bit here. I guess im a bit on the fence with this one. But i still think the prospect of an ownership ban is a 1 in a million. There are alot more and bigger fish they want to fry than that i think....

[Mosh]

THEY (the big 3-4 companies) WILL NEVER BUILD 3 WHEELERS AGAIN..Ever!



It wasn't my intended vision... to have a "1 trike per household minimum" but more of a "Hey (CPSC), now that you have basically eliminated an entire form of recreational vehicle based on skewed/biased information why not come clean and admit you were wrong"... will it make parts available? likely not, would small custom shops like TPC have an easier time marketing their conversions? perhaps but that doesn’t mean that they will become popular and sell 1000 a year... If I lead anyone into thinking Honda has a boat load of 250r's waiting at Customs for the ban to be lifted, I'm sorry, hell we can't even get most of the manufacturers to import full sized 2strokes any more... This thread came about because I was reading the portion of the lead ban legislation that pertained to ATV's and the way they backdoored a technical ban of three wheelers into it... I pissed mo off so I wrote a letter, the boiler plate / textbook responses I got pissed me off more so I continued to respond... In order to not sound like a pesky idiot I read more and more into the available information about the consent decree and other available info and guess what, yepp ... more pissed, then I posted it here thinking that some people would get a shred of enjoyment out of it... Do I think it will create a time warp and put us back to 1984? No, but will i continue to stand my ground and believe that it was a biased decision based on public panic? Yes, Will it make any difference whatsoever? Probably not, but I don’t mind being brutally honest with someone, in this case it's the CPSA... I may be a little bullheaded and set in my ways but I've never been one to take a certin path just because the guy next to me took it, I always take the one I think is right and hey sometimes I'm wrong, but being hated for who I am is a thousand times better than being liked for who I'm not, unfortunately in todays world that makes me somewhat of an outcast

That statement I posted earlier was not directed towards you.
It is merely a realistic observation that I have seen over my 6 years on this forum, and more directed to those that may be new to this deal. Lets face it, many of the "active" posters on this board were not even alive in 1987. Or even a twinkle in their parents eye.
For all those years I have been on here, there has been thread after thread about this same topic "They might make trikes again", and "hi Hopes" come about from those threads. It just really gets old.
The statement was directed to the guys that actually think that "they", whoever it may be, will actually mass produce trikes again.
They wont. They just wont. As far as "they" are concerned, it would be like reproducing the Ford Pinto again..Noone would buy it, and everyone that has been around long enough, has the image in their head that the Pinto was a death trap.:D Which is much the same perception people have about ATV's let alone trikes.

What I did gather by your well written letters, was you want Closure to these "Safety Guidelines" or list of acceptable modifications, that would allow one to circumvent the "ban" or "cease and desist" letter that they implemented years ago.
All you want to know is what is acceptable standards to build a safe trike, and they won't give it to you.
To them..It would be like Ceaser's Palace in Vegas, actually teaching people how to count cards.

Someone said it best, that maybe these efforts would be better concentrated on keeping ride areas open.

Drawing any more attention to "trikes" or the already "negative ATV stereotype", is much like throwing raw meat in front of a pack of rabid wild dogs.

[RIDE-RED 250r]

It wasn't my intended vision... to have a "1 trike per household minimum" but more of a "Hey (CPSC), now that you have basically eliminated an entire form of recreational vehicle based on skewed/biased information why not come clean and admit you were wrong"... will it make parts available? likely not, would small custom shops like TPC have an easier time marketing their conversions? perhaps but that doesn’t mean that they will become popular and sell 1000 a year... If I lead anyone into thinking Honda has a boat load of 250r's waiting at Customs for the ban to be lifted, I'm sorry, hell we can't even get most of the manufacturers to import full sized 2strokes any more... This thread came about because I was reading the portion of the lead ban legislation that pertained to ATV's and the way they backdoored a technical ban of three wheelers into it... I pissed mo off so I wrote a letter, the boiler plate / textbook responses I got pissed me off more so I continued to respond... In order to not sound like a pesky idiot I read more and more into the available information about the consent decree and other available info and guess what, yepp ... more pissed, then I posted it here thinking that some people would get a shred of enjoyment out of it... Do I think it will create a time warp and put us back to 1984? No, but will i continue to stand my ground and believe that it was a biased decision based on public panic? Yes, Will it make any difference whatsoever? Probably not, but I don’t mind being brutally honest with someone, in this case it's the CPSA... I may be a little bullheaded and set in my ways but I've never been one to take a certin path just because the guy next to me took it, I always take the one I think is right and hey sometimes I'm wrong, but being hated for who I am is a thousand times better than being liked for who I'm not, unfortunately in todays world that makes me somewhat of an outcast


Its a nice little system they have going isnt it. Reminds me alot of congress and their incessant earmarks they attach to every bill that gets shoved through.....

I get your point on this and it IS very interesting on the upside, but at the same time depressing on the downside to see in front of our eyes the way these bureaucracies take more and more control over decisions we should be able to make for ourselves as citizens....

[RIDE-RED 250r]

Someone said it best, that maybe these efforts would be better concentrated on keeping ride areas open.

Drawing any more attention to "trikes" or the already "negative ATV stereotype", is much like throwing raw meat in front of a pack of rabid wild dogs.


Great point! There are countless environ-MENTAL-ist groups out there lobbying to close all public lands to what they call "Thrill-craft".
Somebody over in Dootalk posted a link up to these crackpots last year... just one example, and the propoganda is nausiating http://www.stopthrillcraft.org/


apologies for being a :postwhore here

[tri-Z ripper]

I appreciate what HuffieVA is doing. Always stand with your chin held high. Come on everyone between Gun Laws, ATV ownership in general and the limited riding areas we have no should be stood up against! Keep up the good work and remember everyone has nay sayers

[NINJA]

Great point! There are countless environ-MENTAL-ist groups out there lobbying to close all public lands to what they call "Thrill-craft".
Somebody over in Dootalk posted a link up to these crackpots last year... just one example, and the propoganda is nausiating http://www.stopthrillcraft.org/


apologies for being a :postwhore here

I actually watched that entire video. I love how they portray anyone who likes to enjoy public lands via "thrillcraft" as a self-centered, destructive, upper class American (here's to stereotyping). They said that there are more hikers using these areas than ORVs? They really are delusional! They used the B-word way to many times to push their agenda also. We deal with these eco-terrorists everyday here in Moab. The majority of trails here are on slickrock, you can't damage it with your vehicle and nothing lives on it, it's friggin' rock! Yet somehow these people manage to get more and more trails closed. It's a business really, and they make a lot of money from it. Most people love joining a "cause." It's true though, there are idiots in every group.

I guess what I learned from that video is: WELCOME TO YOUR PUBLIC LANDS: NOW GET THE HELL OUT, UNLESS YOU AREN'T DISABLED AND CAN AFFORD TO TAKE THE TIME OFF TO HIKE 40 MILES TO SEE YOUR FAVORITE SAND DUNES!

[TrailerRider]

Well took them almost 3 months to repspond but I sent a letter welol email as well..

My Letter to them:


This past April I received my FOIA request for 3 wheeled atv data that you all put together for me, thanks for that it is very much appreciated. I have been reading over the 1000’s of pages and noticed that there is supposed to be a mandatory safety standard created for 3 wheeled ATVs. Who governs when the standard is going to be created? Or I guess a better question is who lead on this project? I would like to see how the progress is coming along for the standard. From what I have read this is the only thing holding the 3 wheeled ATVs from being built or imported again. I believe this is a mandatory standard that is to be created by the CPSC? Do you have any idea where I can find in the information I am looking for? If you do please forward me their contact info including an email address. Please let me know either way.



Thanks again for your efforts,



Rich



Their response...


Dear Mr. Torres:



Thank you for your inquiry about three-wheeled all-terrain vehicles (ATVs). Please note that the comments in this response are those of the U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission (“CPSC” or “Commission”) staff, and they have not been reviewed or approved by, and may not necessarily reflect the views of, the Commission.



In your message, you asked about development of a mandatory safety standard for three-wheeled ATVs. The CPSC has not initiated development of a mandatory standard for three-wheeled ATVs because the CPSC does not believe that such a standard is feasible. Nor has Congress directed the agency to do so.



In 2006, the CPSC initiated a rulemaking proceeding that would ban the sale of three-wheeled ATVs. The Federal Register notice that describes the ban, and the CPSC’s reasons for proposing a ban and for not developing a safety standard for three-wheeled ATVs, can be found at www.cpsc.gov/businfo/frnotices/fr06/066703.pdf, beginning on page 45914 of the notice (or “page 12 of 60” of the pdf document) and continuing to page 45915.



There are times when Congress has directed the Commission to develop a standard or to complete a rulemaking. This is not the case with three-wheeled ATVs. In August 2008, Congress passed the Consumer Product Safety Improvement Act (“CPSIA”). Subsection (c) of Section 232 of this Act states:



Until a mandatory consumer product safety standard applicable to 3-wheeled all-terrain vehicles promulgated pursuant to this Act

is in effect, new 3-wheeled all terrain vehicles may not be imported into or distributed in commerce in the United States. Any violation

of this subsection shall be considered to be a violation of section 19(a)(1) of this Act and may also be enforced under Section 17 of this Act.



This section does not require the Commission to issue a safety standard for three-wheeled ATVs; rather, it states that as long as there is no such standard, three-wheeled ATVs may not be imported into or distributed in the United States. (A copy of the CPSIA can be found at www.cpsc.gov/cpsia.pdf). The Commission is not working on such a standard, and the moratorium in the CPSIA continues to apply.



Again, thank you for your inquiry. I hope that the information above is useful.



Sincerely,

Elizabeth W. Leland

Project Manager, ATVs

U. S. Consumer Product Safety Commission

eleland@cpsc.gov

301-504-7706





This is not over... I am going to respond to it and well see what happens.

[volfan537240]

go get em!!!

[Louis Mielke]

Why are you trying to tick people off? Why? Just look at the links that everyone posted. They already hate us. Why are you trying to give them more ammunition? This is foolishness. If it would actually help then I'd say go for it but EVERYONE knows this will help in no way and in effect will get us negative attention.

[TrailerRider]

Because it is more then just 3 wheelers. It is a matter of elected people not doing as their told to do so. You are told by congress to do something and you just keep putting it off. That is wrong. They will never out law 3 wheelers. If they did this they would have to outlaw street bikes as well, old people carts, cop cars etc. They should have made this already and they blatantly refuse to. That is wrong. I will not sit back and watch them do the typical government bs. You can if you so feel the need to sit back and watch the world go around. I will not. Plain and simple. By allowing this type of thing to happen your only enabling that kind of bs. They will not come in your yard and take away our 3 wheelers.

[HuffieVA]

Why are you trying to tick people off? Why? Just look at the links that everyone posted. They already hate us. Why are you trying to give them more ammunition? This is foolishness. If it would actually help then I'd say go for it but EVERYONE knows this will help in no way and in effect will get us negative attention.

Within the "Consent Decree" the CPSC agreed with the manufactures that there was no apparent design flaw of the three wheeled ATV, What this means is “Honda” was smart and refused to agree that the machines themselves were as fault (well at least on paper). Because the Consent Decree is a legal document agreed to by the CPSC the cannot place an outright “BAN” on three wheeled ATV’s. Otherwise they would have gone away nearly entirely just like “Lawn Darts” (although I still have several sets of those as well). The fact is that Honda nor any other large scale manufacturer manufacture them again. The only chance of having a small scale company (along the lines of Tiger) producing them again is to get a standard passed. You can argue that things will get worse by requesting one but in reality its not feasible for them to demand a recall because they (the CPSC)would have to foot the bill, as the manufacturers became exempt with the signing of the consent decree. So in essence we have what we have unless we convince them to produce what they are arguably required to do (i.e. produce a standard). Its not about pissing anybody off, its simply about standing up for what one believes is right, in this case it’s the freedom of choice and free enterprise. I understand that everybody doesn’t see things the same way and I’m fine with that but heres the real deal…

We are constantly loosing choices, whether it be the ability to purchase a trike, or finding places to ride. We loose places to ride because nobody can agree to stand up for their rights and the “Tree Huggers” have nothing better to do than assemble and complain, but hey that’s their right and the exercise it, if the trike or the 2-Stroke community for that matter would stand up for what they believe in (or in the case of trikes if they would have) we may still be out numbered but at least we wouldn’t go unnoticed. Even though we ride machines that were in most cases produced over twenty five years ago we need to look to the future to secure the very existence of the sport or it will simply fade into old memories and there will be finger pointers playing the blame game, there will be those that set back and slowly watched it disappear, but even in failure there will be those that made some attempt if even a small one to secure a place in society for machines we enjoyed so very much.

I tend to stand up for what I believe in be it wether it be for gun rights, against school uniforms, severe punishment for crooked cops and a laundry list of other things, but most of all a believe in applying common sense to every day situations, for example:

"If you dont do anything, nothing good can come of it"

[HuffieVA]

Because it is more then just 3 wheelers. It is a matter of elected people not doing as their told to do so. You are told by congress to do something and you just keep putting it off. That is wrong. They will never out law 3 wheelers. If they did this they would have to outlaw street bikes as well, old people carts, cop cars etc. They should have made this already and they blatantly refuse to. That is wrong. I will not sit back and watch them do the typical government bs. You can if you so feel the need to sit back and watch the world go around. I will not. Plain and simple. By allowing this type of thing to happen your only enabling that kind of bs. They will not come in your yard and take away our 3 wheelers.

Well said ....

[Bryan Raffa]

I Agree!! well said!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[RamsesRibb]

New Zealands looking better every day.

[oscarmayer]

it's ok I sent her an emaiul asking for a date of standard to be drafted and also explained her "ban" was not a ban but the arbitrary agreement between the gov and the manufacturers. Then i wnet further and informed her that if she was not so willing to follow the mandate (order) from congress that I woudl ensure it was publicized with ehr name aned photo attached to the article as well. Headlines like "Killing our rights?" or "Rogue operations in the government?" . People liek her are the reason the government is so screwed up. they think because theya re in charge of their little area they can do what ever they want and act as if they are a god. If we do not get a date from then I saw the nest step is to inform our local congressmen and even draft up letters for the press and the president to read. I think they all would liek to know that the safety board is ignoring the safety laws mandated by congress and are doing what ever they want.

Law suit against her and her department? Maybe....

[HuffieVA]

it's ok I sent her an emaiul asking for a date of standard to be drafted and also explained her "ban" was not a ban but the arbitrary agreement between the gov and the manufacturers. Then i wnet further and informed her that if she was not so willing to follow the mandate (order) from congress that I woudl ensure it was publicized with ehr name aned photo attached to the article as well. Headlines like "Killing our rights?" or "Rogue operations in the government?" . People liek her are the reason the government is so screwed up. they think because theya re in charge of their little area they can do what ever they want and act as if they are a god. If we do not get a date from then I saw the nest step is to inform our local congressmen and even draft up letters for the press and the president to read. I think they all would liek to know that the safety board is ignoring the safety laws mandated by congress and are doing what ever they want.

Law suit against her and her department? Maybe....

Oscar,
With the purpuzlee mizpelled werdz, the sarcasm sticks out like a sore thumb. I respect your opinion but I have my own as well. History shows that small groups of “idiots” and even individual “idiots” have started many things in this world, both good and bad, both helpful and harmful ranging from founding this country, to inventing the automobile, to creating Nazi Germany and spearheading prohibition and outlawing machine guns.
Never underestimate the power of an “idiot”, after all a group of them lead to the “Ban” in the first place didn’t it? So perhaps another group of them could change that.
Just some food for thought…

[hang&rattle]

Good job guys. Two Montana senators and the rogue Governor have pushed through more opening of federal public land in Montana in a sense. Also Governor Schweitzer is moving forward on our gun rights. A new designated atv park is scheduled, but as of now who knows where. And have been fallowing the local (MT) ATV poker runs etc., now there are 4 yearly poker runs, and even more get-together. I am writing this to let folk know that the proposed taxation and lurking ban on atv's is going, at this point, in the opposite direction in MT. Also there are 2 atv tracks in my area with local races and now 4 atv dirt drags and mudbogs. This is because MFMU, 'Montanan's for Multipul Use', fought for public use of public lands and recreation. And I have said before, folks love the three-wheelers here, had more conversation and friendships made while at the car wash yesterday. What really pushed the use of atv's was the farmers using these as a non-recreational vehicle absolutely for farm work. Our own governor is an atv user. So speaking for our given rights promotes usage. Proud to know fellow enthusiasts who will stand, thank you gentlemen- Robby.