almighty 350x vs thy less mighty 400ex [Archive]

lushatc200x

11-10-2002, 01:43 AM

quote from oldschoolin to 350xrider
350Xrider:
Why is it every time someone talks about 400ex's you 350x guys have to start talking crap? 350X's are glorified dinosaurs. I have yet to have one beat me. Why don't you post a 350x/400ex debate? I could bust your balls all day on that subject. I think it would be a good one.

oldschoolin

i know trailprotrailpro probably a great rider and it takes more skill to ride a 3 wheeler opposed to a four wheeler. so what uve out run some guys that cant ride a 350x. uve got beaten unexpectedly also im sure. hell i got beat by a kx 85 on my 250ex but those bikes will straight up hall as$. 600 dollars on trailprotrailpro bike huh. what kinda pipe costs that much. jetting it doesnt cost that much either. u had to have put at least 200 dollars more into that bike somewhere bro. not callin u a lier or nuttin but there is 200 dollars missing sumwhere.

HemiChallenger71

11-10-2002, 02:15 AM

oh so you ride a 400EX also Lush? I though you had a 250 EX. What else do you have?????????????????????????????????????????????? ????

11-10-2002, 04:42 AM

my bad thats what oldschoolin said to 350xrider in the 400ex vs raptor post. ill fix it

lushatc200x

11-10-2002, 04:50 AM

boy i sure did a fluzzie. the part about the 350x is what oldschoolin said to 350xrider in the 400ex vs the raptor post. sorry for the mix up

OldSchoolin86

11-10-2002, 05:27 PM

When this gets remotely intelligent I'll join in. The Raptor vs 400ex debate was done in fun because as we all know machine bashing on this site is strickly prohibited.

Howdy

11-10-2002, 05:48 PM

I proclaim "The Wrecker" will win any race ( where the other machines aren't running ). lmao

HemiChallenger71

11-10-2002, 06:50 PM

Sorry lush

OldSchoolin86

11-10-2002, 10:58 PM

Okay lush, to answer your question just about any good pipe and dynojet kit will run you $600. I stopped using generic exhaust in high school. Price out a Pro Circuit, White Bro's, FMF or any high end exhaust and your already over $400. Add in my dynojet kit and front sprocket and you have about $600 easy. No missing $200. Another thing, I wasn't referring to you on the intelligence comment just so you know. Sorry about that, atleast you were working on a point.

Saying the 250ex and the 300ex have more arse than the 400ex doesn't even make sense.

Now to make or brake this debate I will concede to a stock 400EX is a slow SOB. I was almost depressed untill I did some simple add ons to it. Mine is not stock but it is very very far from worked. I will also say again I have yet to be beat by a 350X and the people who I ran with have good points in there defense and are skilled riders like myself.

Anything else? 8)

Billy Golightly

11-10-2002, 11:09 PM

Infact there is Oldschoolin' ;-)

I rode my freinds 400ex who races today, and he happened to win both heats plus the practice with it. I've gotta say...It was like a boat on land compared to what I'm use to riding. A golfcart is bad enough, but a 4 stroke golfcart? Aint happenin with me. I will say it had good throttle response, but it handled terribly compared to what I'm use to ;)

11-11-2002, 04:21 AM

i dunno bout those other pipes but a white bros e series pipe is only 359.99 dollars for a 400ex. a jet kit maybe around 100.00. thats only 459.99. so that leaves about or almost 150 bucks.

OldSchoolin86

11-11-2002, 09:31 AM

Well I got the Pro Circuit T-4 and I was just pushing out numbers when I said $600. All I did in the performance department was the ehaust, K&N Dynojet kit and the front sprocket.

MR ATC

11-11-2002, 02:37 PM

karnivore660r

11-11-2002, 07:08 PM

OK im sorry to do this to someone i consider a friend but, O.S. you talk about useing only high end stuff and not genaric crap but then you mention a DYNO JET kit rotflmfao those kits are the biggest joke and scam out there today. the only thing they do is replace the keihin jet and needle with mikuni parts to basically rejet your Carb so all your doing is sprending more money then needed (a jet only cost 5.00) just for a sticker. if you want to run mikuni crap by a mikuni carb. i could get the same results with just a jet change then your overpriced "jet kit"

First off, Dyno Jet and Mikuni are two different companies. http://www.users.qwest.net/~tcamp30/jets.htm

The dyno-jet kits are overpriced for what you get. I know a main is like $3 but can you get the needles without the kit? The needles have alot to do with throttle response and no rejetting is complete without one. Myself, after searching the summer tring to avoid buying a duno-jet kit I had problems getting the correct jet sizes and I broke down and bought the GYT-R jet kit for $60. Still overpriced but I am very happy with this kit that was designed by yamaha and Mikuni for my bike. This kit also came with larger pilots jets let alone needles and mains. It also had instructions for a rookie carb man like myself and with it's help I jetted spot on the first time out.

A scam, maybe. necessary, yes. There is definitly more of a performance gain than just uping the main jet.

Just because someone spent a little more money for more performance I wouldn't start talkin schmack.

OldSchoolin86

11-11-2002, 07:24 PM

I'm with Karnivore on this. These kit are nice and I'm fully capable of jetting a carb the old fasioned way but What I liked about the kit is extra stuff like the needle and the shims and dead on jetting instructions. Dynojet is far from generic. You can't do what a kit can do with just a jet. Reality would be that just buying a jet and saying it's good enough would be generic. I did it for a long time and after my first Dynojet kit I'm sold. Another thing, my kit didn't have anything to do with standard Mikuni crap.

MR ATC

11-11-2002, 07:47 PM

Ok lets clarify;

Karni, i never said anything about Mikuni and Dynojet being the same company so just like at Haspin try to keep up...lol...jk

can i get needles without the kit...yes...try Sudco they are one of the largest carb parts suppliers

jetting spot on...it is impossible for someone in CA. to perfectly jet a carb for a machine in Michigan...maybe its spot on for a rookie such as your self but for the same price as your kit you could have a professional mechanic jet it spot on for your area.

O.S. , yes you can properly jet a carb without a kit

as far as your kit for your 400EX... the last kit i removed from a 400EX was a dynojet. basically what it consited of was a adapter for the emulsion tube that allowed a Mikuni main jet to be used the reason for the needle change was so the mikuni jet would have a mikuni needle...once i removed the kit and rejetted with a Keihin jet adjusting the air screw and moving the needle. once i did this it ran much better and was "spot on" compared to the Dynojet kit installed as acording to Californa instructions...

karnivore660r

11-11-2002, 08:38 PM

MR ATC just like Haspin Acres take a deep breath and try to keep it together. Now, you never said what???...
genaric crap but then you mention a DYNO JET kit rotflmfao those kits are the biggest joke and scam out there today. the only thing they do is replace the keihin jet and needle with mikuni parts to basically rejet your Carb ... you want to run mikuni crap by a mikuni carb. i could get the same results with just a jet change then your overpriced "jet kit"

jetting spot on...it is impossible for someone in CA. to perfectly jet a carb for a machine in Michigan... That's why they supply different size mains.

Nobody said you couldn't correctly jet without a jet kit I just said you'd see more performance with one.

Does Sudco offer performance needles with their jets or just replace stock ones?

but for the same price as your kit you could have a professional mechanic jet it spot on for your area. yeah, this is much cheaper, as they would buy a jet kit and charge you for it plus labor.

I may have been a rookie in doing it but I know how to read the porclin and electrode.

once i did this it ran much better and was "spot on" compared to the Dynojet kit installed as acording to Californa instructions... the person iunstalled it according to california elevation in michigan must not have been too bright. :idea: Just imagin the extra HP you would have had if you had used the DJ needle with the correct air/fuel combo :shock:

11-11-2002, 09:53 PM

MR ATC just like Haspin Acres take a deep breath and try to keep it together.

just like at Haspin i had enough time to sit and take a break waiting for you...lol

Nobody said you couldn't correctly jet without a jet kit I just said you'd see more performance with one.

explaine to me self admitted rookie how you gain performance from a jet kit over properlly jetting a carb. without buying the fancy package.
i could easily package a assortment of jets and needles for a certain machine and call it a kit with instructions

Does Sudco offer performance needles with their jets or just replace stock ones?

yes where do you think Dynojet gets there parts from. sudco is the largest distributer of carb parts in the us they sell high performance stuff your dealer can't get.

but for the same price as your kit you could have a professional mechanic jet it spot on for your area. yeah, this is much cheaper, as they would buy a jet kit and charge you for it plus labor.

no that is a incorrect assumption maybe some mechanics do that but when i wrench i do it the normal way

I may have been a rookie in doing it but I know how to read the porclin and electrode.

once i did this it ran much better and was "spot on" compared to the Dynojet kit installed as acording to Californa instructions... the person iunstalled it according to california elevation in michigan must not have been too bright. :idea: Just imagin the extra HP you would have had if you had used the DJ needle with the correct air/fuel combo :shock: the person that installed it was a dealership and they did following the instructions not elevation (remember i said try too keep up...lol)

so tell me do you knoe what the DJ needle dose differantly :?: :rolleyes: :twisted:

MR ATC

11-11-2002, 09:58 PM

sorry karni that did not show up like i wanted if you have as much trouble figuring it out as you did keeping up with me at Haspin (and O.S.) just let me know and i'll help you out...lol

350Xrider

11-11-2002, 10:16 PM

I'm gonna have to go ahead and drop the big pisser on you all I guess. Jetting is not really a performance modification. It is used in sync with other heavy heavy modded motors and for changes in elevation and such.

karnivore660r

11-11-2002, 10:26 PM

So your saying that all you need to do is increase air and not fuel for more power? Hmmm...maybe everyone should be jetting down instead of jetting up. :D 350xrider, how long does your machines last when they are running lean like that?

OldSchoolin86

11-11-2002, 11:21 PM

350Xryder:

You couldn't be anymore wrong. Jetting is the most important part of performance. It's the one thing that needs adjustment for every little thing you do. A stock motor can gain HP by good jetting.

MR ATC:

First of all a kit does more than just jetting and I never said you couldn't properly jet a motor with out a kit. Try to keep up here, I don't want to see you out of breath like I did in Haspin. I have no idea where your getting off saying you even know what a Dynojet kit is. The 400ex kit comes with a butt load of jets(non Mikuni), a needle, a shim for the needle and instructions. That's all. As far as a dealer installing it who cares? I haven't trusted dealers or shops for years to touch my machines.

MR ATC

11-12-2002, 12:35 AM

Well just like at Haspin I've come back from taking a pi$$ and i see you've fimally started to catch up.

i can tell you what a dynojet kit is because i've had many customers ask me to install them just like there buddies have with the same machine. i told them the same thing. i had them return them to get there money back while i rejetted there (yuk) golf cart for the cost of the kit (vs labor and the cost of the kit). afterwords they were much happier. they saved money and got better performance...lol

hey if i made one would you and karni buy a powerband kit... :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

350Xryder has a point jetting is not a performance part (like a kit) its a degree or state of tune no kit can do what a experianced mechanic can do

lushatc200x

11-12-2002, 01:03 AM

all i know is that a 350x will spank a jetted and piped 400ex. ive seen it done i was behind them when it happened. so lets talk about the subject of the 350x vs 400ex. this is not a jet kit post its a bike vs bike post. i rode a modded 400ex today. its pretty cool how much difference there is but its still not right. the power is better but not greater. i dunno.

karnivore660r

11-12-2002, 01:54 AM

the person that installed it was a dealership and they did following the instructions not elevation (remember i said try too keep up...lol) Like I said "he must have been not too bright".

so tell me do you knoe what the DJ needle dose differantly The needles have a greater taper to them allowing for a better air & fuel mixture and quicker more responsive throttle.

hey if i made one would you and karni buy a powerband kit... :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

No thanks, I bought one of those when I picked up my scam of a jet kit and custom muffler bearings. :rolleyes:

I still say buy a kit and do it yourself instead of having a "has been" of a mechanic try to tell you otherwise while bending you over for labor with no vasiline to support his dinosaur habit. :D j/k

OK, back to the subject.

lushatc200x, what is your definition of "spanked"? 1,2 bike lenghts? 25-50 feet? Maybe MR ATC "tuned" the 400ex or 350xrider's lack there of. There are a lot of machines out there that are not tuned correctly.

I willing to bet bet it would be a good rece but a stock 350x "spanking" a piped & jetted 400ex I can't see it.

MR ATC

11-12-2002, 10:06 AM

MR ATC

11-12-2002, 10:22 AM

as far as 350X vs. 400EX its a close race i've beaten them on 350X's and been beaten by them. however the times i was beaten by them (twice) one was on a 350X with its original piston and rings and had worn chain & sprockets. the second time (against O.S. at haspin drags) was with a "new crate motor" that had a bad clutch...i have a idea since i made the trip once already how about you (Karni & O.S.) drive over here and well have a rematch... :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

karnivore660r

11-12-2002, 12:12 PM

well this "has been" of a mechanic sure kicked your Dynojet kitted equiped Raptor's trailprotrailprotrailprotrailprotrailpro at Haspin on his dinosaure of a trike...lol you had so much power that it took you how many times to get up that hill i walked up on my dinosaure.

I was still stock then and besides it wasn't a power issue it was a traction problem getting up the hill from a dead start. I still don't run a dyno-jet kit anyway. And you sure the he!! didn't kick anyones butt! A dinosaur on a dinosaur lol how ironic. You had to take a leak so many times we where gonna buy you some Depends for the next ride. The reason I was behind you at Haspin was because I had a cell phone in case I had to call the peramedic's for you and I had 9-1 dialed with my finger on the 1 a few times.

I'm always up for a rematch, just when you get your arse handed to you don't cry clutch problems.

MR ATC

11-12-2002, 01:23 PM

and the reason i stopped so many times was waiting on your slow trailprotrailprotrailprotrailprotrailpro O.S. and i even had time to talk about leaving you behind but, since you were on a Yamaha we figured that was torture enough

anytime you want to come to PA. i'm ready for ya :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

never once did i say my clutch affected me in the woods against you. even with a crippled motor i was way out in front... :D :D :D imagine if i was on my 360 or 400

karnivore660r

11-12-2002, 01:48 PM

imagine if i was on my 360 or 400 Yeah, I may have been able to get out of first gear with you out of my way. :D

There's a lot of trash talkin for riding with ya. I do believe it wasn't a race but that's the way it goes with these three-wheeler guys, you go for a ride with them and let them lead but when you get back to camp it was a "race" and they won. :D

11-12-2002, 01:56 PM

oh trust me had it been a "race" you never would have seen me once i passed your trailprotrailprotrailprotrailprotrailpro :shock: :twisted: :D

MR ATC

11-12-2002, 02:03 PM

SO when are you and O.S. coming out this way to redeme yourselves? i'm getting sick of beating these guys around here that all heve brand new Raptor's ,Z400'S (both yellow and green) these are the same guys that sold there 400ex's cause they could not keep up....lol
i've got some trails that the beginners use so your Raptor won't have "traction" problems on baby hills

karnivore660r

11-12-2002, 02:03 PM

Anybody have any footage of a stock 350x beating a piped and jetted 400ex? or should I say "spanking" a 400ex?

I'd like to see 1 race O.S.'s ex, he definitley has it tuned right.

MR ATC

11-12-2002, 02:44 PM

ok lets look at reality here, the fact that were even having this discussion gives the 350X the victory. the 350X is 17yrs old and still competitive with the 400ex its really a 50/50 toss up both can win its so close. its a matter of the better rider however, the 400ex guys must admitt there machines are newer and in better condition then most of the 350X's there racing against. now 17yrs from now will they be comparing the 400ex to the newest mid sized 4 stroke ATV?. no because its already getting beaten by Z400's. LONG LIVE the 350X King of the Hill

p.s. i'll put money on me beating O.S. in a rematch

karnivore660r

11-12-2002, 02:56 PM

I don't age has anything to do with it and it definitley doesn't make it the automatic winner. What kind of reasoning is that?

I'm sure we may be comparing the 400ex to a newer machine in 17 years if they ban atv's and we have to wait another 15 years for a new high-per machine.

MR ATC

11-12-2002, 03:05 PM

quads were never Banned. what about the Yamaha Warrior? that is a 350 4 stroke. its was supposed to be faster then the 350X after all it won the shootout in dumb wheels.

try too keep up...age has everything to do with it the 350X is still state of the art compared to a 400ex it has 50cc less but puts out almost the same #'s. the fact that 17yrs later its being compared to a "new" quad speaks volumes about its abilities. how many other 17yr old Bikes,trikes,quads are still competetive in there respective class's? now imagine if a 17 year old trike is being compared to a new quad what would happen if we had a brand new 350X...HMMMMMMMMMM

350Xrider

11-12-2002, 05:52 PM

The 350X lush is talking about was mine and when the 400ex I was racing was stock I beat him by about 20ft or more with my SO CALLED LEANED OUT BIKE. I can still beat him to and he has an E-series pipe and jetkit.And since you think that horsepower is so easily gained it has a six pack rack and Renthal bars,so that must add an additional 5 horses.lol I'm not going to say much to u Karni if you are lost so bad as to say that age has nothing to do with it. Also I bought a new set of Scott Hand Grips what kind of jetting do you think I should run. LOL. I need to find the article that says all about jetting and how it is not necessary like you think it is. I know you would believe it, because it came out of dirtwheels and you aparently are one of those that believe anything they read or hear. I am just going to have to go and flat out disagree with O.S. on the fact that I am completely for my own reasons, and those of you who know their stuff enough will know what I am talking about.

karnivore660r

11-12-2002, 06:33 PM

There is no since in posting anymore since some of you can't understand english. Re-read my posts and think about what your saying, I hate repeating myself, even for the challenged.

OldSchoolin86

11-12-2002, 07:07 PM

For the Record:
Okay lets set the record strait here. Trash talk aside the three of us(MR ATC, Karnivore, OS) kicked some trailprotrailprotrailprotrailprotrailpro out on that hair scramble. MR ATC you can definantly hang with us without a question. If we were leading I highly doubt we would have lost you. You know how to ride. Each machine has it's ups and downs. All of our machines showed them from time to time out there but I wouldn't say anyone was holding anyone back. Well maybe that 660 was an anchor. lol ;)

350Xrider:
Your still wrong and that's too bad because your missing out on a little more power. Ask any of the good jetters here like me and they'll tell you the same thing. I think jetting would be a good topic in it's own right for the open forum so everyone could get in on it. I'll keep an eye out for it.

MR ATC

11-12-2002, 07:39 PM

i have to agree for all the times i stopped to waite there were as many times i was holding them up a little it all depended on the conditions and my own conditioning (that was the first time i rode in a year) regardless i had a great time riding with them and would do it again in a heartbeat and hope to soon. the cool thing is we had all three machines a Raptor,400EX, and 350X and no one was at a disadvantage. i know i surprised O.S. with what a 350X could do and he surprised me by being the first 400ex guy to push me and keep me on my toes. that 660 guy though he's a differant story...lol...jk Karni

i also have to agree on proper jetting. a properly jetted carb is the differance between a good running motor and a great running motor...i just don't need a kit to properly jet a motor

karnivore660r

11-12-2002, 08:24 PM

O.S. LOL! I know it must look like were really going at it but we all know what's the real deal.

I don't think I have been clear as I am obviously misunderstood. So to set the record straight:

I NEVER bashed the 350x, I said it WOULD be a good race, I just don't think it would "smoke" a piped & jetted 400ex. I know some of you won't like this but I liked the 350x so much I put a crate (no 350x was dismantled) one in my 250x frame and I'm sure it could hang with a stock 400ex in the quad frame!

I NEVER said that you could NOT jet properly without a jet kit and in fact stated I was going to do that before I went with the GYT-R jet kit and I mainly did that because I could not get the right jets alone.

I said that a 350x does not win JUST because it's 15 years older as MR ATC stated.

cappiche?

OldSchoolin86

11-12-2002, 08:33 PM

LOL! That was for everyone not just you Karni.

350Xrider

11-14-2002, 12:31 AM

You can say what you want about jetting I am telling you about me not having nor needing to change the jetting, it all depends on your altitudes and such. It is not necessary to rejet with just a pipe and filter and is in no way damaging your bike as Karni suggested earlier, so you all can say what you want but it isn't hurting the longevity of my bike,that is why it has been running strong and trouble free since 86.Some of you all depending on where you live may need to rejet to achieve maximum h.p. for mods such as a pipe and filter. I however do not. So how challenged do you think that is Karni. I believe what we have here is a case of the know it alls.

Lots_Of_Nothing

11-14-2002, 12:44 AM

this is a little back in this forum...but a jet around here only cost $1.25 no matter what its for or what size..........

karnivore660r

11-14-2002, 01:49 AM

Wow! trouble free since 86! That's 15 years! you must have got one of those bikes that was built in mid-week.

Well for as long as I have known, running way lean does hurt your bike and performance. The engine runs hotter, running hot equals poor performance. That's why they put things like fins on air cooled motors and run coolant in liquid cooled motors. The cooler an engine performs the closer the tolerance can be and the more performance you can get out of it. Secondly, when you increase air flow into a motor's combustion chamber you lose out on possible performance gains the motor can put out if you don't increase the fuel.

The reason elevation is another factor is because at lower altitudes air pressure is greater and has more force, at higher altitudes air pressure decreases. The higher the altitude the less air is push into the carb/combustion chamber. The lower the altitude the more air that is pushed into the carb/combustion chamber. I have provided the following chart for you:

Air pressure at different altitudes

Altitude(m) - Air pressure(kPa)

sea level - 100

3000 - 70

6000 - 47.5

9000 - 32.5

So by what you said, you either started rich or you live on the moon.

I don't think I know it all but I think N.A.S.A. is pretty smart, here is a link to an interesting test result I found. It's a little old but it still rings true. Pay close attention to page 3.

http://naca.larc.nasa.gov/reports/1937/naca-tn-619/

Even air temperature has a noticable effect on an engines performance. More air desity in colder climates and thinner air in warmer temps. Resulting in the engine running a little leaner in cold weather and richer in warmer climates.

I will give you this though, an engine runs at peak performance when it's running a little lean but when running at the utmost peak performance you are affecting the longevity of your motor. Any leaner and the bike starts to not perform well. I like to jet at/for around 60 degrees, a little lean in the winter (I don't do a lot of riding) and a little rich in the hot summer months (a little less performance but the engine will run cooler and last longer).

Increasing the air flow/supply and fuel for more power is also the reason that turbo charged vehicles put out more horse power than naturally aspirated motors. But that's getting a little of subject. OK I'll stop now.

Point being, when ever you increase air you should increase fuel for more performance and reliability.

The needles in those jet-kit scams helps mix them together. The more aggresive the taper of the needle the more emulsified (sp?) the fuel is and atomizes with the air, kind like a garden hose nozzle I guess (a finer spray).

freaksfix

11-14-2002, 01:58 AM

Here you guys need a break.. :Beerchug

karnivore660r

11-14-2002, 02:01 AM

I'm with freaksfix! :Beerchug

I thought this post was suppose to be about 350x's and 400ex's not jetting! :D

:twisted:

OldSchoolin86

11-14-2002, 09:39 AM

Karnivore, It's hard to debate with someone who have no clue what he's talking about. You and I and the performace world know but if he wants to belive he lives on the moon then let him. All I know is beating a poorly jetted 350X with my 400EX would be so easy it would be rediculus.

MR ATC

11-14-2002, 09:53 AM

why don't you ask the top ten performance shops if they use (not sell) jet kits. while i agree with your statements about jetting and that is the point i was trying to make. a jet kit is not a end all solution it is nothing more then jetting for beginners. i was only trying to save people money. had you seen my jet box at Haspin you would have seen over 100 main jets, 50 differant pilot jets,30 differant needles, all for the price of 2 jet kits. i could very easily buy 5 main jets a differant pilot jet and a needle jet put them in a package with a sticker call it a kit and make a good profit.

karnivore660r

11-14-2002, 11:42 AM

MR ATC, where do you get the needles? Are they stock replacement needles?

As I stated before, I would have jetted the way your saying MR ATC but I was tired of trying to track down the right jets. I have a bag of jets that I may or may not ever use. My point with the jet kit is that the needle supplied is better than reusing the stock one.

MR ATC

11-14-2002, 12:46 PM

Karni, like i said before Sudco Int. has more carb parts then you will ever need including jet needles. also look in the back (the classifieds) of the dirt bike,MX,ATV magazines there is a place called carb warehouse that also can get you what you need. also if you have a good parts man at your dealership he/she can get them for you through the aftermarket or from the factory

no they are not just stock replacements you can get all the ranges

karnivore660r

11-14-2002, 01:07 PM

Thanks, I'll have to remember them next time but for now I couldn't be any happier with my jetting.

"Good parts man at dealership" LOL, that's hilarious! :D

karnivore660r

11-14-2002, 01:12 PM

A race between a 400ex and 350x would end in a tie, they would both catch fire and burn to the ground at the stating line because their both Honda's! :D

Gotta get the flames rollin again!

:twisted:

350Xrider

11-14-2002, 06:38 PM

Well, my "Poorly Jetted"350X will outrun a piped and jetted 400ex. I have many witnesses to back it. Also the extent of your jetting matters, you say mine is to lean, so if you jetted it back up to much you would be right back where you started, just without the engine damage. I mean get real people that little of a difference may pick you up a little power, but it is going to be hardly noticable. You can't tell me that bikes are running dangerously lean and that they are in danger of buring a hole in the piston or anything like that from the factory, but thats what I am getting out of it. I mean certain people in certain areas might need to rejet, however I am telling you that my bike is and has been fine as well as 99.9% of everyone else's bike. Karni you said that a bike runs its best when it is a little lean. It all depends on what pipe and airfilter you run to, a lot of those mods do not (and I don't care what you say) require rejetting because they aren't much less restrictive than stock, so that depends on what you are running. We were talking running a little lean, not to the point of blowing the living hell out of your motor, you went off the deep end to say that. I am not talking about way lean like you, I am talking just a tad lean,so that maybe only a unnoticeable ammount of power is lost and no motor damage is gained. Everyone knows that a motor running way lean is not good. You said it yourself that elevation changes the pressure and even temperature has an effect on your carburation, so with that being said you live in a completely different location than I do, and that means the elevation and temperature and pressure is going to differ from what it does here, thus being the reason I needn't rejet while you may feel that you have to or are missing out on what you would refer to as serious power. Also the temperature and such around here is so often changing that it may be 100 degrees one da and 50 the next or so, so I don't throughly enjoy changing my jetting half way through the day or the next day or what have you. I keep it at a universal setting so as it is never running way to lean or way to rich so as to cause engine damage. I will also have to agree with MR ATC on that it is a severe waste of money buying a jet kit. I'll go out and buy a few jets for about 10 bucks and you will probably have more jets then the kits come with that way, then I will buy a sticker and throw it together for less than 15 bucks and sell it to you for 50 hell even 30 bucks any day of the week. I know I am forgetting something, but I will catch it later.

TimSr

11-14-2002, 07:06 PM

Im afraid Im gonna almost have to agree with MrATC here. The first time I saw a "jet kit" for $60 or $70 I laughed out loud. Main jets and pilot jets run about $2 or $3 bucks here, and Ive never in my life had to change a needle, but apparently they must cost $50 or $60 based on what the kits cost. I also laugh when someone says their bike "has been jetted". As far as I know, they all come "jetted" right from the showroom floor, dont they? Does anybody actually sell a bike without any jets? There is a problem for selecting what jet will work in all geographic locations, so they kind of take an average (its not a huge span of sizes we are dealing with) and error on the side of rich, because running too lean WILL damage a motor. And probably well over 3/4 of these factory jets are perfectly fine as long as the machine remains stock. Sometimes your climate or location may deem the factory jet unsuitable. The main jet is a brass nut with a hole in it. You get one with a bigger or smaller hole to let more or less fuel pass. Unsuitable, means its got the wrong size hole for present conditions. Its not rocket science. There is no such thing as a racing jet or a performance jet. If somebody can explain how a "racing" jet can enhance performance over the "proper size" jet Id love to hear it. The vast majority of carburetion setup is handled with the main jet. I once had to change a pilot jet. Ive never had to change a needle. Im also amused at the notion of a K&N jet kit since I have never seen the install of a K&N filter require jet changes, though Ive heard it repeated often enough. The difference between a K&N and a foam element is not nearly as much as the differnce between a clean filter and a dirty one. Top end pipes may make it run slightly leaner. Low end pipes usually make it run slightly richer.
The only jet kit I ever saw that made sense was the Keihen kit that has 5 different main jets in it, and sells for about $15, because thats the way most of us buy them insteading of running back to the shop after we try each one.
All my machines are "jetted". I just cant imagine riding them without jets!

OldSchoolin86

11-14-2002, 08:37 PM

Tim I'm sorry I have to break it down this far for you but when someone says their machine "has been jetted" it means it was jetted for max performance. You said yourself they are at a generic setting from the factory and they are. I've never heard of a performace or race jet but if your buying I got a new bolt up powerband for you too. LOL. Lastly, the main really only affects 3/4 open to max. The middle is the needle and that little air screw is for the bottom.

karnivore660r

11-14-2002, 09:57 PM

I think we're all saying the same thing with just our own little twists. Some are getting stuck on some point that nobody made and are going off on tangents here. So lets all get this straight!

FACT:

1. One must rejet for one or all of the following reasons:

a. Extreme climate change.

b. Extreme altitude change.

c. The amount of air flow has increased due to intake and/or exhaust modifications enough to require to.

2. One can save money by buying main jets, pilot jets, needles and other carb components seperatly rather than purchasing a jet kit.

3. A piped and jetted 400ex will run circles around a stock 350x. ;)

But I do disagree with O.S. about where the main jet is effective. I believe it's from 1/4 to full throttle. I have a chart at home about where each component is effective and how they over lap and had a book mark on the net but can't find it now.

350Xrider

11-14-2002, 11:20 PM

Well, I think you said it good except for the 400ex running circles around the 350X. hehe It can sometimes be hard to get what you really want across on the net. I can also say that I think o.s. you are taking TimSr wrong. You may not understand what he is saying or something, but I can honestly say that I have so far agreed with every thing that man has said.I'd say it is just a matter of communication.

OldSchoolin86

11-15-2002, 12:17 AM

Karni that's what the needle is for. The mid. As long as the jet is in the ballpark the needle will do the rest. Your a smart person, think how the taper on the needle works and you'll understand. You'll also see why fine tuning the jet is for the top.

karnivore660r

11-15-2002, 12:38 AM

You dought me?

http://www.icnetx.com/images/jet2.jpg

you are half way right, the main's most effectivness is between 3/4 and full.

IDLE: Set idle speed to proper r.p.m. by adjusting the IDLE SPEED SCREW. Turn the AIR SCREW to achieve the highest speed and best response. Afler adjustment has been made reset the IDLE SPEED SCREW to the proper r.p.m.
OFF IDLE to 1/4 THROTTLE: The SLOW JET and AIR SCREW are most effective in this range When you want a richer mixture use a larger SLOW JET or turn the AIR SCREW in. The opposite holds true for a leaner mixture
1/4 to 3/4 THROTTLE: The JET NEEDLE is the most effective component in this range. Raising the needle by lowering the chip position at the top of the needle will richen the mixture.Lowering the needle will lean the mixture.
WIDE OPEN THROTTLE: Changing the MAIN JET affects this range. Select the size which offers the best W.O.T. performance, then install one size larger MAIN JET for ideal engine durability.

http://www.hondaex.com/techtips/jettingguide.htm

:twisted:

TimSr

11-15-2002, 01:33 AM

OS Please allow me to correct you. the main jet is effective almost through the entire range, except what passes through the pilot. All fuel that goes through the needle, also goes through the main. This is why any instruction manual on carburetion always instructs you test and setup the main jet first before making needle and pilot setting changes. If you drop you main jet , your midrange will also be leaner, but dropping your needle will not affect the top end of the spectrum. The pilot jet does primarily effect the very bottom, and the air screw affects how quick it comes off of idle when you blip the throttle. What I meant by the vast majority of problems being solved with the main is if your bike runs fine, you add Boysen reeds, and it starts running too rich, if you drop you main jet to the correct one, it would be extremely rare that youd also have to monkey with needle or pilot jet settings. My point being a single main jet is all thats normally required.
If something already has a jet and put put a different one, the correct term is REjetting. Youd be surprised at how many kids have no clue that on a new bike, jets are included, which I attribute to the misuse of ths term.

OldSchoolin86

11-15-2002, 09:31 AM

I didn't have a clue how many kids don't know bikes already have jets. That's kind of funny but I quess we all learned this stuff one time or another. I think we're on the same page for the most part. I do agree that if you put too small of a jet then your cutting mid too but if it's in the ballpark the needle's taking care of the mid not the main. In a correctly jetted bike the main is playing a minor roll in the mid. Just moving that needle up or down a clip can make a big difference.

TimSr

11-15-2002, 11:10 AM

OS - Youve got a good running rig, so you obviously know how to set it up right! I guess Im trying to make the point that setting jetting correctly is part of standard tuneup on any machine regardless of its intended use, and that its not some kind of performance modification for racing. Choosing the right jet is no different than using the right spark plug. Im waiting for people to start saying "yeah she runs great now. Just had her professionally plugged with an NGK racing plug kit that cost me $59.95."

Around here, "jets" have become yesterdays "power bands". This is a story from the parts counter guy at the local dealership:

Kid comes in.
"I wanna jet my Blaster. What kind do you have for it?".

"Well, we have Mikuni jets, for your Mikuni carburetor".

"Are they the best?"

"They are the only ones we carry."

"Okay, so how much are they?"

"Theyre $3.95."

"Wow! Thats it! I cant believe more people arent buying them at that price! Ill take one!"

"Okay, what size do you need?"

"They come in different sizes too? Im a pretty advanced rider, so Ill take the biggest one youve got!"

Im almost starting to miss when they used to ask for power bands!

karnivore660r

11-15-2002, 11:23 AM

Hey I jetted my quad! Here's a pic!

http://www.bikersweb.co.uk/latest/may02/115speed_pyro.jpg

This is the "jet kit" I picked up for $60. ;)

HemiChallenger71

11-15-2002, 05:05 PM

That icon is halarious Karnivore!

OldSchoolin86

11-15-2002, 08:18 PM

That icon, I can't stop laughing. Oh my god is that funny.

Trikeaholic

11-16-2002, 09:27 PM

i think its called an "avatar" :rolleyes:

OldSchoolin86

11-16-2002, 11:51 PM

Who cares it's still funny.

mtbikr

11-29-2002, 07:29 PM

ok Here is the deal, my brother has a 01 400ex. i have an 85 350x. he has wb e series pipe, kn filter, professionally jetted bike. I have a supertrapp pipe, dirt digger clutch, wiseco 10.25:1 piston. we have raced countless timeswith the same outcome. I smoke him....until I run out of gears. Then he catches me as he shifts to 5th. so you guys can argue all you want, but I know. My theore is that a 350x is geared to low but i love all that low end power when climbing. the 400ex has problems climbing when you have to slow down for a tree then try to get back into it(usually stalling out).