at my whits end with my 200x

[RodKnockRacing]

I put a good CDI on it today (Thanks Mike) and still nothing I'm thinking lack of compression. Considering I can kick it sitting down, it feels like some compression because i have to put some leg into it but i don't know. I wish I had a tester, I lapped the new valves but maybe not good enough. The cylinder was honed and I put new rings in it and gaskets. I also was thinking that the pulse generator wasn't aligned correctly and its sparking at the wrong time. I'm just at my whits end with it.

[racer....X]

When you hold your finger over the sparkplug hole and kick it it should blow your finger off.Did you double check your cam timeing marks?

[bigworm626]

Deep breathe RKR. There a solution to everything except death.

[JustEnough]

I have been troubleshooting some pullstart 185 and 200's and may have some suggestions, but first I have some questions. Is it a fat spark every revolution? Have you done a valve adjustment recently?

I have found that the decompression lever makes a great clip to hold the spark plug when checking spark. If it is not a fat spark every revolution, wirebrushing the primary coil and wiring (bullet plug) connections is what fixed the NO SPARK on my 200M.

A valve adjustment will help improve compression. I use a 3 second squirt of starting fluid in the spark plug hole just to confirm combustion, because an engine that has some kind of weakness usually needs a near perfect air/fuel mixture to start. My 200M has VERY little compression and won't start at all unless the choke is off, probably because the carb is set too rich, but once it is started, it runs really well.

[RodKnockRacing]

When you hold your finger over the sparkplug hole and kick it it should blow your finger off.Did you double check your cam timeing marks?

it doesnt really blow my finger off but i can feel strong air

[RodKnockRacing]

I have been troubleshooting some pullstart 185 and 200's and may have some suggestions, but first I have some questions. Is it a fat spark every revolution? Have you done a valve adjustment recently?

I have found that the decompression lever makes a great clip to hold the spark plug when checking spark. If it is not a fat spark every revolution, wirebrushing the primary coil and wiring (bullet plug) connections is what fixed the NO SPARK on my 200M.

A valve adjustment will help improve compression. I use a 3 second squirt of starting fluid in the spark plug hole just to confirm combustion, because an engine that has some kind of weakness usually needs a near perfect air/fuel mixture to start. My 200M has VERY little compression and won't start at all unless the choke is off, probably because the carb is set too rich, but once it is started, it runs really well.
i checked the valve adjustment and there fine and spark isnt fat but its there

[Dirtcrasher]

RKR - I had one like this, once it ran and was warm you were AOK. But it wouldn't blow your finger off and after I tore it down I found the head gasket was farting out one corner.....

I lap valves too with "Clover" compound or the stuff at your local auto parts store. I usually use my drill and pull up on the stem (taking care not to get it in the guide - I guess it eats them up from what I've heard) but I just do it quick, reverse it and do it again. It's worked for me thus far....

I imagine it depends on how bad the valves and seats are. I'm curious as to anyone who has used the 3 different angled cutters (Shortine?? maybe) because I can't see how it can be done unless it's set up in a mill or you have an incredible eye and can line it all up. I can't image re-cutting the valve seats by hand...... Fortunately lapping has worked for me so far.

You staggered the rings and the bore/piston clearance was good?? If so, it has to be a headgasket or valve issue; I check valve leakage by pouring gas in them making sure it doesn't leak out.

Your pulse generator should be fine unless it's 180 out. It will kick over fine (won't bend a valve but 120 out will), just sparks at the complete opposite time. I think the 200 engine has a line you line up with the PG back plate to the head and it will run with that lined up.

It should blow your finger off.... IDK if you have "Autozone" but they lend tools out for just a deposit, maybe they have a compression tester? At least you can rule that out if it has good compression. Or pick one up on EBAY, they aren't allot of $$ but make sure it comes with an adapter for your plugs thread size, some fit the larger plugs but not the little guys.....

I'll put my $$ on SHORTLINE for being one of the guys that know this motor VERY well.

[RodKnockRacing]

thanks for the tips Dirt Crasher ill see what i can come up with

[Dirtcrasher]

Your welcome :beer

Someone had a great Topic/post about pressure testing a 4 stroke recently. You'd need to make some fittings up for the intake and a plug for the exhaust - The exhaust would be the easy one, either a flat plate with a gasket or an old headpipe you could pinch off and braise shut or something. Creativity always helps!

Anyhow, in that post they talked about the pressurized air coming out the dipstick - bad rings or piston wall clearance, air out the head - bad head gasket and a soapy mix/bubbles would show that and they talked about figuring out which valve was leaking this way too.... I imagine if you pressurize it TOO much then the valves may seat themselves a bit better and not show you whats up.

There was allot of good stuff in that Topic, hopefully someone can post up the link!

[Texas 200x]

With new valves, rings, and a hone job you should be good on compression. It should definetely blow you finger off. Make sure you timing marks on the flywheel and the cam are dead on. Does it even try to fire or nothing at all. Did you try ether?

[RodKnockRacing]

It doesn't even try to fire I've checked the timing and it looks all lined up. I just cant seem to figure it out I'm gonna have to buy a compression tester so i can be completely sure of the compression.

[RodKnockRacing]

Your welcome :beer

Someone had a great Topic/post about pressure testing a 4 stroke recently. You'd need to make some fittings up for the intake and a plug for the exhaust - The exhaust would be the easy one, either a flat plate with a gasket or an old headpipe you could pinch off and braise shut or something. Creativity always helps!

Anyhow, in that post they talked about the pressurized air coming out the dipstick - bad rings or piston wall clearance, air out the head - bad head gasket and a soapy mix/bubbles would show that and they talked about figuring out which valve was leaking this way too.... I imagine if you pressurize it TOO much then the valves may seat themselves a bit better and not show you whats up.

There was allot of good stuff in that Topic, hopefully someone can post up the link!

I put soapy water around the head gasket and I didn't see any air bubbles.

[harryredtrike]

did you put the little pin back in for the pulser in the cdi cover plate?

[oldskool83]

or the seal? if you put the CDI on with the deal it will hang up on the bring and cause a massis air leak which can fill up with oil too.

[RodKnockRacing]

the seal is new

[oldskool83]

are the rings and piston sized for the cylinder?

[200XMichigan]

If it makes you feel any better. I wasted the entire day putting some cheap Chinese quad back together after getting reemed out by my girlfriend for having too many projects (final exam week and she's pissed). So I was not really in the right mindset to be doing engine work. Valve compressor I have didn't fit it, she was already mad about me buying tools so I put the engine back together with a new piston and not lapping the valves hoping it would start. Well sure enough it didn't. Then somehow after a couple hours it jumped time on me and I have to take it all back apart. Then I got to hear how, "Now you need to buy more tools and parts." and the worst of it is its her 4 wheeler. I was working on it so I wasn't selfish and she could go riding with me. I should have just worked on my 200X and put the carrier bearing in so I can go riding.

But at least when yours is all done it will be time well spent on a classic Honda, rather than some Chinese turd.

I picked up a nice compression tester for like $35 from Autozone. I have used it some much since then. You'll never regret buying one.

[bigworm626]

200xMich,
Man, I don't even tell my wife anymore when I'm going to buy a trike, i just tell her I'm going buy spare parts, pack for the day & take my kid with me to wherever were going to pick up another 3 wheeler. Love it!!! She has no idea I have 8 trike since she doesn't like to ride. Sorry didn't mean to wonder off the subject, just thought you might need a little man boost.

[shortline10]

You shouldn't be able to hold your finger over the spark plug hole ( Without a good fart )if you have adequate compression to make it run . Did you put a little oil on the rings when you put the motor together so to get some kinda seal for the first fire up before the rings have time to seat ?

[200XMichigan]

Thanks, yeah once things are less hectic I can spend some time in the garage. It will be good. I found an ATC70 (well 2 actually for $75). Fortunately the guy will hold them for 2 weeks. Don't have anywhere to put them she wouldn't see them. Way to hide 8 trikes though, just gotta know, where do you keep em? Or does she just not go out to the garage? I think she's gonna like the 4 wheeler once she's less stressed, hopefully.

Back on topic...sounds like there's not enough compression but if the spark isn't that big, clean all your connections and put dielectric grease on them. And check the spark plug wire for cracks, or spots that feel really hard. When they get old they get brittle. I had a CT90 that wouldn't fire for the life of me and it was driving me crazy. Checked and double checked everything. It had spark but just not enough. Replaced the spark plug wire and end cap and it fired on the first kick. They sell bulk spark plug wire for around $2 a foot.

[RodKnockRacing]

You shouldn't be able to hold your finger over the spark plug hole ( Without a good fart )if you have adequate compression to make it run . Did you put a little oil on the rings when you put the motor together so to get some kinda seal for the first fire up before the rings have time to seat ?

theres definitely some compression i just dont think its enough i think im gonna just have to get a head gasket and relap the valves and check and make sure the rings arnt lined up for some reason ill get it one of theses times live and learn i guess

[MTS]

Check your cam shaft spec...make sure it isnt too round...also check that the valve springs are not "sprung" or worn/missing spring seats...a real badley groved valve seat will cause issues...Could be as simple as your cylinder is just to wore out...

[RodKnockRacing]

Alright I think I'm making head way after doing some troubleshooting. I may of had the cam 180 out so i took the cam out and made sure the lobes were facing down then re timed it and put it back together. Now after a few good hard kicks its fires a few times but wont run and idle so I'm thinking the spark is too weak or something. I know its getting gas because the plug is wet. But i hope I'm on the right track

[RodKnockRacing]

bump...........

[jays200x]

Havent had good luck with mine either. been good to her since I got her and she rewarded me with a bad tranny. But.. after alot of painting and parts buyng....all I can do is hope!!!!!!

[Daltons200x]

did ya put a new plug in it? sorry its probably a stupid question but ive been through a week of headaches just to find that my new sparkplug somehow fouled out. and if i kicked it real hard it would pop but it didnt have good enough spark to run

[Dirtcrasher]

Get that compression tester! Nothing kicks over and starts or barely does with low compression. I HATE the way the <85 200X's kick over, it just never feels like a good strong kick..........

[brapp]

i told you you probably had it 180 out lol but if it coughs and stutters your gettign closer.

[sportsfinat]

The only problem with compression testing the cylinder is that the new parts really have not seated themselves yet. The valves might be alright but with a new piston, rings, and hone...there is going to be a lot more leakage present in the compression test. even tho the cylinder looks smooth it is a lot ruffer now then when the rings will fully seat themselves. so air through the breather or oil fill should be the only thing you hear leaking if any. and one more thing that you might want to look at is that your spark plug is gapped right. i dont mean to insult your intelligence but i have forgotten that multiple times and wondered wtf!?!?!? p.s. i would say you want to get a differential compression tester and not a absolute pressure tester, it will help you find out where you are loosing compression. hope this helps

[RodKnockRacing]

Get that compression tester! Nothing kicks over and starts or barely does with low compression. I HATE the way the <85 200X's kick over, it just never feels like a good strong kick..........

Yeah I know I could kick 350x over with no decompression but when it comes to my 200x its tough.

[RodKnockRacing]

i told you you probably had it 180 out lol but if it coughs and stutters your gettign closer.

maybe today ill get her runnin

[RodKnockRacing]

Well today went and bought a compression tester and i only have 60 psi of compression and its suppose to be 164 psi so something aint right.

[200XMichigan]

Yeah right around 160. Might not be that high before the rings seat but it should be a lot higher than 60.

[Shorty]

Yea when I rebuilt my stock 200x It had 195PSI. So its either the builder:rolleyes: or screwed up parts:mad:....

[RodKnockRacing]

Yea when I rebuilt my stock 200x It had 195PSI. So its either the builder:rolleyes: or screwed up parts:mad:....

Hell I'm still learning so it maybe something i messed up I'm not afraid to admit it. I'm thinking the valves arn't seated good enough I need to get some new top end gaskets then tear it back down and see.

[sportsfinat]

find an adapter to fit in the spark plug hole. the one off you compression tester might work if it isnt 1 whole hose/unit. then take the piston to tdc on the compression stroke/power stroke. make sure is is perfectly at tdc and then chuck up an air hose to is and start adding air pressure. On aircraft we put 80 psi in and check for leakage. if you are right on tdc then the piston will not move back down. after you have some air pressure in there then you can figure out where you are leaking...or where it is the worse. If you can hear air hissing throught the carb/airbox, then it is an intake valve.....exhaust=exhaust valve......and if you can hear it through the oil fill or crank breather then it is your rings. this is why i recommended a differential compression tester instead of the absolute pressure tester like the one you bought. it will help out find the problem instead of just telling you that you have one.

[RodKnockRacing]

find an adapter to fit in the spark plug hole. the one off you compression tester might work if it isnt 1 whole hose/unit. then take the piston to tdc on the compression stroke/power stroke. make sure is is perfectly at tdc and then chuck up an air hose to is and start adding air pressure. On aircraft we put 80 psi in and check for leakage. if you are right on tdc then the piston will not move back down. after you have some air pressure in there then you can figure out where you are leaking...or where it is the worse. If you can hear air hissing throught the carb/airbox, then it is an intake valve.....exhaust=exhaust valve......and if you can hear it through the oil fill or crank breather then it is your rings. this is why i recommended a differential compression tester instead of the absolute pressure tester like the one you bought. it will help out find the problem instead of just telling you that you have one.

I will give that a try thanks

[elanharper]

not enough

[RodKnockRacing]

Well took the top end back apart and the top piston ring was stuck so i guess I'm just gonna have to get a .50 over piston kit from wiseco in less someone has one on here they wanna sell.

[oldskool83]

why was the ring stuck?

[RodKnockRacing]

why was the ring stuck?

I couldn't figure that out the groove was clean but it was stuck in there good

[Grizzlypeg]

Wrong size ring? It should have a little gap top to bottom, and be free to expand and compress within the groove. Was it gapped properly?

[RodKnockRacing]

Rings were 65.5mm and i need 66mm I'm kinda pissed about it but life goes on and she will run soon.

[x200x]

if you're spark isn't good enough, i just found a way to boost the spark for a few minutes. (enough to get it started) takee the plug out, test the spark (see how strong it is) and spray a little carb cleaner on it, check the spark again and you'll see that the spark is huge, then see if you're getting gas in the cyllender, if not you can try droppin some gas in the carb, if that don't work drop some in the cyllender, "boost" your spark, and if it doesn't start, or at least fire, then i don't know what to tell you, if it will fire, keep doing that to try and work some gas into it... good luck, and send a post to keep me updated on your progress..

[sportsfinat]

before you buy new.....make sure the ring was in right side up as well...some of the piston rings will bind if put in upside down because they have a beveled edge

[Texas 200x]

Is your piston a 66mm piston or a 65.5mm piston. You should slide your rings in the bore without the piston to check the gap. Hope you get it sorted out, good luck.