My New 250r engine siezed update

[cattle-dog]

Well after paying $2000 for the trike, i have ran two tanks of gas threw it using golden specter two stroke oil one bottle to five gallons premium gas 92 octane which is 50/1. that is the mix the honda dealer told me to use and the reccomended oil.
will they do anything for me ? not sure it is a used race machine .
the crank has locked up i have the head and jug off now, should i rebuild it? or buy a rebuilt engine?
can i split the case myself?. i am going to put a add in the classifieds for a engine so i can atleast ride it while i eather rebuild it as it was set up for drags, or buy one allready hot rodded.

[Dammit!]

The shop isn't going to do anything for you. If you can swing buying a used motor to use while you go through the other one with a fine toothed comb, that'd be a good way to go. Lets you take your time and do it right.

You might want to keep an eye on this auction. This guy is an honest seller. I've dealt with (and rode with) him before.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=110519947642&viewitem=&sspagename=ADME%3AB%3AFSEL%3AUS%3A1123

[cattle-dog]

thanks dammit i had my eye on that auction , now that you recomend him that will be the route i take.

[3Razors]

Why did it seize? Thats the first step that needs to be figured out. What kind of fuel/oil mixture did the previous owner use? Did the piston come apart and lock up the crank or did the bearings fry? You say the engine was setup for drags so 92 octane would be a no-no. Troubleshoot the source or it will just be endless circles of rebuilding and used engines.

[Somekindofjerk]

bring it over! we will get it appart and figure out what happened

[cattle-dog]

here is what i know it has
boyson reed cage (spelling?)
fmf exhaust
kehien carb
it has been ported.
supposed to have higher than stock compression
piston and rings didnt come apart or melt, jug came right off and is in excellent shape, crank is locked up in down stroke and i found what i believe to be pieces of bearing.
can i split the case myself? to see what is saveable?.
i used exactly what the honda guys told me to as they serviced the engine for the previous owner, and when he fell on hard times they bought the trike from him. i have built many car engines so i know i can do a rebuild on this, i just finished a 950 hp nitrous amc engine for our gremlin drag/street car.

[Escanabajosh]

man that sucks, sorry to hear.

should have went with the 350x, dang 2 strokes (j/k)

[cattle-dog]

well i still have my 250sx to ride its feeling abandoned since i got the 250r lol,

[3Razors]

Normally when the bearings seize up on the bottom end its because of not enough lubrication. Run more oil in the mix next time. You can split the cases yourself if you have the knowledge and skills to do so.

[cattle-dog]

yep thats what i figured it will be 40/1 next time i shouldnt have listened to a honda dealer lol

[3Razors]

Yep not all dealers are alike, there is no "one size fits all" when it comes to oils and ratios. Don't stop at 40:1 you can go 32:1 or more if you like. More oil gives more power and everything in the motor just lasts longer.

[cattle-dog]

yea well i am going to find a motor to ride on until i rebuild mine the way i want it

[atc500x]

I always run my 2 strokes at 32/1 oil ratio.
Why not only buy a connecting rod and a gasket kit?
Not sure if it's a oil ratio problem....piston will habitually seize before a rod without oil.

[cattle-dog]

thats what i thought who knows how old the lower end really was? i am going to get a aftermarket crank and rod. and start from a solid base, i have a great topend so why not put together a brand new bottom end

[beets442]

That sucks to have that kind of $ rapped into a good machine and have it lock up.
There a lot of ways(opinions) on how to mix fuels,
Golden Spectro is very good oil to break an engine in with but at that ratio, to me is a little lean.
Like you said, take it apart and find out how/why.
Hopefully you can salvage it,
let us know how it went....Beets

[atc500x]

I think it's a better choice than bought another complete used motor.If your top is new,put a new crank in it and you will not have other surprises.Maybe the other used one you will buy will do exactly the same thing after 2 week.Don't forget to change your crank shaft bearing and seal at the same time

[300rman]

I always run my 2 strokes at 32/1 oil ratio.
Why not only buy a connecting rod and a gasket kit?
Not sure if it's a oil ratio problem....piston will habitually seize before a rod without oil.

because for the price of a connecting rod kit plus the cost of having the crank rebuilt, a new crank can be had for similar money. although, dont throw away the locked up crank, because in the future when parts become scarce, that crank can be rebuilt.


32:1 is what i run as well, and i am hard on my stuff. Klotz Super Techniplate FTW!!

dont think it was a jetting problem, or the siezure would have been in the piston.

[3Razors]

Crank bearings seize all the time if not enough oil is run. It takes virtually no oil to lubricate a piston, gas alone has some lubracant properties...Most of the oil goes towards the bottom end to keep everything happy. Age does play a factor too, but normally when the crank gets old it just gets alot of play...doesn't seize from age. So what seized the rod or crank? If you need a rod/crank get oem, its far better quality.

[cattle-dog]

i will buy a temporary engine and keep it for backup later, but was thinking of actually building a motor anyway, with all aftermarket internals its just sooner than planned but i want to ride while i build a new permanent engine.

[honda250sx]

Have you even talked to Eddie on this? I mean he's a straight shooter. I have been his neighbor for 25 yrs. He has done countless amounts of work for me. He owns a reputable shop and has over 40 yrs of experience and is a regarded honda guru. I just talked to him today about this bike when I was in his shop. Had I known it was there I might have bought it myself. He told me they had just put about $1400 dollars in work into the bike. If it were me, I wouldn't have touched it and took it right back to him. I bet he'd make good on the deal.

[Maico]

Wherever the gas/oil goes...the lubrication goes. I've ran the same gas/oil mix you have for years with no problems.

My guess is that the lower end bearings had seen better days and decided they wanted a vacation.

[ceaserthethird]

Take lots of Pictures and post them up, will help all of us !

[cattle-dog]

well i am a straight up kind of person and know i bought a used race machine from eddie and his partner.this is the chance we take buying these trikes and how are they to know that the bearings were going, i do not exspect them to do much of anything,
i will talk to them monday about it,i was just there at noon on saturday just before it happened buying some two stroke oil.
i am going to assemble the rebuild myself and then know exactly whats going on in my engine.

[cattle-dog]

i will more than likely be using eddie to help me threw the rebuild, to make sure i am not doing something i shouldnt, i want a durable engine that is fast when done and hopefully wont have to take apart for a long time.
now a few questions to start me off.
1) a 85 250r is a short rod motor?
2) are hot rod cranks good and has anyone used them?
3) what brand piston and rings are the best?, i want a solid rotating assembly
4) use a factory gasket set? or should the head gasket be aftermarket?
5) use a cool head and which one is best?
once i have researched this and taken in whats best i am going to do this quickly, i dont like to drag my feet, i entered my trike in some dirt drags june 5 and will be there with a new rebuild.

[TeamGeek6]

They have been run less than 50:1- thats where we raced at and my engine is still stock bore.

Either the bearing was damaged on installation, it was run without premix at some time, or - what I found in my left engine case- the case wasnt ground out to allow oil flow to the left bearing- the seal was blocking the oil port and the bearing got so hot it turned blue.

There may not be anything wrong with the crank. If a bearing did suddenly lock up, change the rod bearing and check the pin at least, the seizure might have damaged the rod bearing.

Watch for a broken/cracked case.

I used a hot rod rod kit works fine.

[Macdiesel]

Although I am new to trikes I am not new to two strokes from what i understand 85-86 cranks are god awful to rebuild because of that damn pop can shield built in, last i checked around here anyways there was no one who would rebuild the cranks and for 200 buck a whole new wiseco crank is worth it, I would also go forged wiseco piston and rings just cause thats all i run and have never had an issue at all. Splitting the case is not that bad just make sure you have an actual honda shop manual not the clymer manual so you know exactly what you are looking for IE small balls at the end of clutch rod for example. and yes 86.86 250r's quads and trikes were short rod motors, 87-89 quads were long rod, if you re real brave like we talked about last night ake a 88 crank, 85 piston and put a 4 mil plate at the base of cylinder then hold on but remember frankenstein is fast but oh so touchy

[cattle-dog]

i stoped by the honda dealer where i got the 250r and told them what happened, they were as shocked as i am, so we agreed if i buy the parts they will assemble the engine for free and get it dialed in, i am happy with that as really they didnt have to do anything for me, so a solid thumbs up for lock city cycle first class in my book.

[beets442]

With your $2000, they should be able to rebuild it!(JK)
With times as tight as they are, I'm suprised they stepped up.
We've had two local dealers go out of business. :(
Glad you got a second chance:cool:...Beets

[dcreel]

That's great that they stepped up to the plate.

[yj350]

X2 on lock city when I lived in Tonawanda I used to get stuff from them good people to deal with.
i stoped by the honda dealer where i got the 250r and told them what happened, they were as shocked as i am, so we agreed if i buy the parts they will assemble the engine for free and get it dialed in, i am happy with that as really they didnt have to do anything for me, so a solid thumbs up for lock city cycle first class in my book.

[Dirtcrasher]

Usually the problem is that MANY people ignore the lower end (leave well enough alone right??) Nope..........

2 Top ends for ever bottom is my rule of thumb.

The crank is another story, it can last 25 yrs. or 2 yrs. Oil you run, air filter cleanliness, warm up time, coolant levels, OEM, or who rebuilt the last one - All play a role.............

Our old 4 stroke cranks last forever, but the pingers need a bit more attention.

[cattle-dog]

i will admit i am not good at waiting for proper warm up but it didnt last two tanks of gas

[Macdiesel]

Cattle I too am rebuilding my engine like we talked, I was fortunate to have a spare laying around so I can still ride, Boss Bearings has a great engine seal and bearing kit for about 100 bucks, overall if you go aftermarket crank should be about 200, gasket kit around 30 for a complete one, and I recommend if the clutch driver plates have not been replaced put steel ones in it, just my opinion having dealt with several 86 250r quads now , and really a totally new top end from wiseco will run you about 125.00 while its apart just do it all and dont take a chance and make sure those techs at the dealership clean all the old bearing pieces out of your cases or it will cause nothing but problems later, been there and done that on my stand up ski, once I realized the oil seals were getting eatin alive literally it was too late I chalked that one up to a learining experience :)

[cattle-dog]

well i supply a great ebay atc parts store, he is a good person who is going to hook me up with my parts cheap. i am thinking of going the 310 route with a hotrod crank and a cool head with the replaceable dome so if at a later date if i want i can calm it down and change it out. i also bought a good used engine from my friend so i can ride, i find it hard to ride my 250sx now that i have rode a 250r and a tecate. once i start the engine build i will post it and see how it gos. it will be a couple of weeks as i am way over my wheeler cash spending now and may have to go to a trike addiction counsler soon if i dont slow down!!!!