Ticking 350X

[DixiePlowboy]

My oldest boy's '86 X has been "ticking" since he got it a couple months ago. It sounded like the valves/rockers needed adjusting, so I did that right after he got it.

Still ticked.

I thought that it may be the timing chain was worn/loose, so after riding it today and the sound seeming to get worse(louder), I removed the rocker cover. The chain isn't near worn out or loose, but the rocker arm faces and the cam lobes are pretty well worn. One of the cam sprocket bolts was actually a couple turns loose when I pulled off the cover!

The cam "bearing" surfaces are a bit galled, but my question is: How much up/down and in/out play is acceptable with everything bolted down? With the rocker cover on I can wiggle the cam up and down a few thousandths and it will move in and out .008" or so....might be a source of the "ticking" sound if that's too much play.

I'm already planning on grabbing an all-around cam and hard welded rockers from Web Cam, but I don't know if that will be all I need.

[jensenracing77]

if the cam bearing surface is gulled you will most likely need a head also. you will also want to find out what caused it. most likely it is because oil was not getting to the top.

[DixiePlowboy]

I'm assuming that a previous owner somewhere in it's past probably installed the oil filter backwards or something. The X came to us ticking and I changed the oil filter right after we got it. The one that was in it was in right, and I know the head was getting oil on day one of it's life here.

May be time to pick up a head assembly.

Is the '85 and '86 head a simple interchange like I'm thinking?

[tri again]

I'm assuming that a previous owner somewhere in it's past probably installed the oil filter backwards or something. The X came to us ticking and I changed the oil filter right after we got it. The one that was in it was in right, and I know the head was getting oil on day one of it's life here.

May be time to pick up a head assembly.

Is the '85 and '86 head a simple interchange like I'm thinking?

I've seen diagrams with the cover, spring , oil filter and also
cover filter spring.

SOmehow its gotta pressurize to the external oil line to the head, right?

Who knows who did what in the past.

Mine was 'ticking' so loud the first time I fired it up I couldnt stand to listen to it.

Even the neighbors 100 feet away came to hear the deathrattle and suggested i DHIT IT OFF!

Valves were 1/4" lash at least.

Wonder if that was the billybobbeer school of mechanics ? or normal wear and tear.

I have at least 5 or 6 honda runners and revived basket cases over the last 10 years and nerver never saw anything like this one

Had to press a tiny piece of fuel line onto that tiny square adjuster to get the rocker to adjust down far enough..prob flush with the locknut.

Cant be right, right?

I got lots of side wobble and axial slop on my rockers but its a million times quieter now, runs great and spits oil all over with the covers off.

I rarely get out of 3rd gear and just need it to get me thru the summer farm season.

Will prob keep my eyes open for a head and rockers for next winters fix fest if it lasts that long.

I also heard that the base gaskets have an oil hole and gasket sealer can plug those

[jensenracing77]

85 and 86 are the same head.

[Louis Mielke]

Before you go trashing that head give webcam or megacycle a call. They have cams with roller bearings that alot of time can be installed to slightly worn/damaged heads and solve your problem without replacing the head.

[Dirtcrasher]

The head change is easy, it's the broken or soon to break exhaust studs that create the biggest problems......

Why the hell did Honda make an oil filter that way? Seems like 50% of people out there put them in wrong! EVEN when instructions are written right on them LOL.........

Those needle bearings they make are nice but the machining might be expensive.

[boosted96cobra]

Back in my honda car days, if the surfaces in the head were worn I just shined them up sanded them with 1000 grit paper and wd-40. Never had a problem with a cam. As far as the rockers, new oems are cheaper than having the rockers hardfaced. I ordered mine from Ronnies. If you look most cam places say harface rockers or new OEM. The new Honda oem rockers are entirely diffrent steel than the old ones, much harder and better quality.

[RodKnockRacing]

I never enjoyed tearing a 350x top end apart because of the long 10mm bolts that hold the rocker cover down they always seem to snap right off in the head what was honda thinking

[Dirtcrasher]

^ Just curious, how do you know that they are made from harder steel now??

Everything I've read said they MUST be hardfaced.

I never figured OEM to change materials and thought they were all made years ago anyhow.............

[boosted96cobra]

If you read the recomendations by every cam maker (webcams, powroll, megacycle) they recomend new oem or hard faced rockers. If you get on an oem parts page for the rocker arm you will see that honda has came out with new rockers many times. Newest part number replaces the older that replaced the older ect ect. The new oem rockers are 5X better steel than the older ones. I held both in my hands at the same time. The newest ones are almost a stainless shiney steel. They are like $38 and take 5 days to get, hardfacing your old ones (welding in the pads) are 65-75 and take what 2 months? I would much rather have new ones they are completely better steel oposed to ones that have the pads welded that take 4X as long and cost almost twice as much.

[boosted96cobra]

This shows they have replaced the older ones 3 times. http://www.ronniesmailorder.com/fiche_section_detail.asp?section=118102&category=ATVs&make=HONDA&year=1985&fveh=2821
The 350 foreman and the trx 250x use almost identical parts in the top end and cylinder, I think that is alot of "why" Honda made better parts. Ill run new oem ones way before I put hardfaced ones in.

[DixiePlowboy]

I had found that the Honda rockers were cheaper this morning when searching online, so that's the way I'll go before I do the hardface deal....which will work fine for Web's smallest cam(if this X were mine I'd step it all up, but it's my son's).

I'm seeing a good bit of galling on the cam bearing surfaces on both the head, the rocker cover, and the cam(cam lobes worn out anyway).....so I'm actually considering one of the Ebay setups that are listed out of Utah for $350-ish(complete head/cam/rockers/cover/bolts) with a 30-day gurantee. The setup that looks best from that seller looks like brand new compared to what I have out in the garage.

I'm going to make a few calls tomorrow and try to figure out my best option(cheapest that will work well).

[boosted96cobra]

I'd clean up your head, install new rockers and cam. The complete head setup will need a new cam and rockers anyways or you will be in the same boat you are now.

[DixiePlowboy]

^^^ I like the sound of that a bit better(less money, new parts, and a step up from stock camshaft), but how do I "clean" galled aluminum cam bearing (journals)? Are they not worn into by the cam/debris resulting in a looser tolerance?

[boosted96cobra]

The tolerance is going to seem like that, but when it is running there is an oil film between the cam and journals. With a new cam (no marks) and shining up the journals will work fine.

With what your describing according to powroll your oil pump may be old and worn out.

Just use 1000-1200 grit sand paper and wd-40 and shine them up.

[DixiePlowboy]

^^^That sounds reasonable to me. I was studying other sites for the last few minutes and had found that several people have done that very thing to galled aluminum cam journals with good results, so between their testimony and your advice I feel pretty good about going that route.

I think that the problem that caused this happened in it's past. Reason being; that there was a bit of gasket maker(non OEM) on the side covers and cam cover, so I believe it's been apart recently. Day one or two of it's life with us, as I stated, I changed the oil and the filter. After doing so, I loosened the bolt holding the oil feed line to the head while the machine was idling....just barely broke it loose 1/8 of a turn, and oil squirted from around the copper washers enough to run down the cooling fins of the head and drip off....in just 2 seconds or so of the bolt being loosened. I believe it's pumping plenty of oil now, but I don't know what it went through before we got it.

It was ticking and a bit weak when we got it. After seeing the worn cam lobes and rocker faces(one is actually deeply dished the wrong way), it's easy to see why it didn't feel right.

I'll get to ordering rockers, gaskets, and a cam tomorrow. Thanks to all that responded and helped with advice and opinions!

[boosted96cobra]

That is exactly how mine was. The intake rocker arm was worn way in on mine.
http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll292/sagep11/IMAG0295.jpg

I was told by the guy I bought mine from that it tipped over when it was still running and they picked it back up and rode it more, and the tick developed right after that. I think the oil in the oil bath for the cam ran dry from it being on its side and then wore really fast from the heat and lack of oil on the cam.

The honda car heads I ported and rebuilt for almost 2 years, day in and day out, I shined them up with no problems. Out of the hundreds I did and seen only 1 fail from the cam journals and it was from someone who ran diffrent cam caps which will not work because the cap and head head is lined bored. That is what drives me nuts when people are selling just the rocker cover on ebay not with the head. That is an almost sure failure as the head and cover will not match.

The other way they can fail is if the head is warped pretty bad. Surfacing the bottom doesn't help if it is warped bad enough to move the cam journals.

[DixiePlowboy]

I think the one I'm working on looks much worse. I've got a crappy camera, but I'll try to snap a pic or two in a little bit.


That is exactly how mine was. The intake rocker arm was worn way in on mine.

.

[DixiePlowboy]

I mic'ed the cylinder today to find that this X was on the original bore. Kinda figured that it would be with a Honda piston in it. Went ahead and ordered a 10.25:1 Wiseco kit(1st overbore), a Web Cam camshaft, and new Honda rocker arms.

I'm having new valves put in it with a thorough head cleaning and with a bit of good luck on shipping time, she'll be back together this weekend. I'm guessing the fresh bore, bump in compression, and bigger bumpstick in conjunction with the DG exhaust and 400EX carb it already had should bring her back to life with some giddy-up...:)