First Gear engagement - ATC 110

[DogMan]

I apologize if this is obvious, but I have looked through the search function to the point of exhaustion, and also searched the owners manual and service manuals online. I just finished a frame-up rebuild of a 1984 Honda ATC110, but just can't figure out this issue.

So the question: in idle, when I engage first gear from neutral, the trike begins moving forward without throttle. Is this normal? In contrast, my kid's dirt bike with auto-clutch (Yamaha PW-80) just idles in first gear, and will only roll forward with throttle applied. In other words, the bike will not stop moving in gear, only in neutral.

If this is NOT normal, what are potential causes? I have adjusted the clutch twice per the service manual instructions. Could my idle speed be too high? Otherwise, the trike runs great. Thanks for any help for this newbie...


(BTW, below is a gratuitous pic of the almost completed project...)

[3wheelrider]

this symptom of creeping is usually the centrifical clutches (sticking).thats if the bike is running normal at idle speed. they must be replaced.no adjusting. also,-if the clutches are starting to slip as you gass it -then you migth as well replace the manual cluthes while your at it too. thats a nice 110! i'm surprized it would have this problem. looks well kept/low usage.

[riverrat]

Nice job on the 110! Make sure the idle isn't too high first.

[MonroeMike]

Welcome to the board, nice looking bike.

[jb2wheels]

That looks great! Did you find a zero offset aluminum fron rim?

[DogMan]

this symptom of creeping is usually the centrifical clutches (sticking).thats if the bike is running normal at idle speed. they must be replaced.no adjusting. also,-if the clutches are starting to slip as you gass it -then you migth as well replace the manual cluthes while your at it too. thats a nice 110! i'm surprized it would have this problem. looks well kept/low usage.

Trust me, it didn't look this good before I stripped it down to the frame and rebuilt from there. But I didn't tear into the clutches, since it seemed to shift fine and not slip. So no way to "un-stick" the centrifugals?

[DogMan]

Nice job on the 110! Make sure the idle isn't too high first.

I'll adjust down the idle and see if that helps...


That looks great! Did you find a zero offset aluminum fron rim?

No, didn't find a zero offset front rim. That is actually the front fork assembly and rim off a 200m; I decided to go for the suspension upgrade while I had the trike apart. The rears are Douglas aluminum rims.

[riverrat]

What size rims are in the rear? And what size rim do you need for the front? I might be able to help.

[fabiodriven]

I'm pretty sure that particular model doesn't have the separate centrifugal clutch. I believe it's just one unit. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't remember seeing a separate centrifugal when I did the clutch in my 110. My guess would be either you assembled something wrong or it may be time for a new clutch.

:shiftyeyes:Trailpros:shiftyeyes:

[hoser]

Has the ATC been setting for a long time, if it has I would ride it for a tank of gas I would also go through the service manual and perform the check and adjustment checks if it still is a problem your going to have to go inside and CSI the clutches.

[riverrat]

Just the springs could be worn out too.

[79fordblake]

Just got done putting new centripical clutch shoes on my 81 185s, along with a better used drum, new clutch fibers from EBC and new heavy duty springs from Versah. I was so use to the clutch sliping that I didn't realize how bad it was. Now that I got it back together today and rode it, its like a brand new trike, doesn't feel like its the same one at all.

I would replace all the clutch parts on that 110, especially since it looks so good.

[DogMan]

I would replace all the clutch parts on that 110, especially since it looks so good.

Crap, I may have to do that. The checked the idle and it is fine. Guess I may need to crack open the clutch.

[Dirtcrasher]

I'm pretty sure that particular model doesn't have the separate centrifugal clutch. I believe it's just one unit. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't remember seeing a separate centrifugal when I did the clutch in my 100. My guess would be either you assembled something wrong or it may be time for a new clutch.

:shiftyeyes:Trailpros:shiftyeyes:

Who makes a 100?? Dam Johnny!!!!!!!!!!

[Vealmonkey]

I'm not quite understanding what you typed here. Are you saying the trike won't move when put into first gear? Or are you saying the trike creeps forward in first gear at an idle? If the trike is in gear, there is no reason that it shouldn't move forward in gear. If it was a car, then it would stall if you put it in gear. These trikes aren't an automatic like a car. Just that your foot operates your clutch instead of your hand and a lever and cable. Now if the trike isn't moving that could be lots of problems. A dragging rear brake, bad wheel bearings and a crappy rear chain will help keep your trike from moving. You could be motoring around on the trikes original clutch fibers and steel plates which may be well worn. Clutch springs wear out and lose strength. If you changed to a modern synthetic oil, this often kills the clutch fibers as the oil is really too slippery for the old clutch fibers. Most trike clutch fibers aren't made to work with modern synthetic oils. I've seen it happen too many times. So it could be a number or things either way, but please make your original question a little easier to understand.

[greenhuman]

Take the rubber cap off the clutch cover. With a screwdriver in the lot, loosen off the 14mm nut with ring spanner.
with the ring spanner still on the nut, turn the slotted center screw to the left till it just get tight then back it off to the right 1/8 of a turn. Tighten the 14mm nut while the screw driver holds the screw in place. Thats it.
I think you will find the center screw on your clutch cover is out of adjustment(no free play)

[DogMan]

I'm not quite understanding what you typed here. Are you saying the trike won't move when put into first gear? Or are you saying the trike creeps forward in first gear at an idle? If the trike is in gear, there is no reason that it shouldn't move forward in gear. If it was a car, then it would stall if you put it in gear. These trikes aren't an automatic like a car. Just that your foot operates your clutch instead of your hand and a lever and cable. Now if the trike isn't moving that could be lots of problems. A dragging rear brake, bad wheel bearings and a crappy rear chain will help keep your trike from moving. You could be motoring around on the trikes original clutch fibers and steel plates which may be well worn. Clutch springs wear out and lose strength. If you changed to a modern synthetic oil, this often kills the clutch fibers as the oil is really too slippery for the old clutch fibers. Most trike clutch fibers aren't made to work with modern synthetic oils. I've seen it happen too many times. So it could be a number or things either way, but please make your original question a little easier to understand.

Mr. Monkey:
This is quoted from my original post:
"So the question: in idle, when I engage first gear from neutral, the trike begins moving forward without throttle. Is this normal? In contrast, my kid's dirt bike with auto-clutch (Yamaha PW-80) just idles in first gear, and will only roll forward with throttle applied. In other words, the trike will not stop moving in gear, only in neutral."

Yes the trike moves in gear, without any throttle applied, just idle speed. Just like a car, actually. But my kid's Yamaha PW80 requires throttle to be applied before it will move after already being placed in first gear.

Also, I use only wet-clutch compatible dino oil in the trike, no synthetic. But I probably do need to replace the clutch parts anyway, as they are most likely original.

[DogMan]

Take the rubber cap off the clutch cover. With a screwdriver in the lot, loosen off the 14mm nut with ring spanner.
with the ring spanner still on the nut, turn the slotted center screw to the left till it just get tight then back it off to the right 1/8 of a turn. Tighten the 14mm nut while the screw driver holds the screw in place. Thats it.
I think you will find the center screw on your clutch cover is out of adjustment(no free play)

Thanks for the tip, but as mentioned in my original post, I have done this exact adjustment twice (just to be sure...).

[Vealmonkey]

Thank you for clearing that up as I didn't really understand. The trike should move when it's in gear. IF it didn't move in gear, then I would say you had problems. If you held your foot up or down on the shift lever depending on which gear you were putting the trike in, then it would be like holding the clutch lever in. As soon as you let foot pressure off of your shift lever, then you have essentially let out on the clutch lever. The trike is acting as it should by moving while in gear.

[riverrat]

Thank you for clearing that up as I didn't really understand. The trike should move when it's in gear. IF it didn't move in gear, then I would say you had problems. If you held your foot up or down on the shift lever depending on which gear you were putting the trike in, then it would be like holding the clutch lever in. As soon as you let foot pressure off of your shift lever, then you have essentially let out on the clutch lever. The trike is acting as it should by moving while in gear.

Your foot operates the clutch????

Veal, a centrifugal clutch on a 110 has no connection to the gear shift whatsoever. Furthermore, holding the gear shift lever up means nothing, in relation to the clutch. It does not matter what gear the trike is in, the clutch should not be engaged until a certain rpm is attained. If you are in 1st gear at an idle, there should be no movement of the trike. Matter fact, any centrifugal clutch should not be engaged at an idle. If it is, then there is something wrong.

[Vealmonkey]

There is no centrifugal clutch on a 110 that I'm aware of?

[fabiodriven]

To Vealmonkey- My 110 doesn't move when idling in gear and if his is doing that there is a problem.

To Riverrat- The 110 doesn't have the separate centrifugal clutch set up like the Tri-Motos and some of the other ATC's. It's just one unit and after replacing the clutch in mine I still didn't understand how it worked. The shift lever is absolutely connected to the clutch and if you hold the lever either up or down it disengages the clutch.

[Vealmonkey]

See fabio, They are trying to confuse me! LOL

[riverrat]

There is no centrifugal clutch on a 110 that I'm aware of?

I just studied the manual a bit and....
I think we are both right. I was always under the impression that it was a centrifugal clutch, like one you would find on a mini-bike. It is not like that. However, it is still a centrifugal clutch. The centrifugal operates the pressure plates. It is like having an automatic clutch lever.
The shift lever, I guess, does override the centrifugal clutch mechanism, and disengage the clutch. As it appears to be attached to it.
The manual is pretty vague, and I am sort of guessing at this a bit.
Still, I've owned my 110 for 20+ years, and it does not roll in first gear with no throttle applied. But I've always noticed how free it gets when depressing, or lifting up the shift lever, and often wondered about that. I thought it might have been in the transmission somehow, not the clutch itself.
I'm always learning....

I am pretty shocked at how robust the clutch is. It is more like a clutch on the bigger bikes, and makes me feel better about doing "clutch drops" to get a wheely going, or in a drag race. Seems like it could take it, even though I rarely did it. I always wondered how I never wiped my clutch out yet.

Knowing all this, may have answered another question for me. When I try to put my 110 in gear, and hit the throttle, sometimes it does not engage the gear. Sometimes coasting, it will come out of gear too. Whenever I drive it aggressive, everything works fine, but if I drive it soft, it seems to not always work right. Not sure if my shift forks are worn, or maybe my clutch needs adjusting. I am going to try and adjust the clutch first and see if that makes it better.

[riverrat]

I also reserve the right to be wrong about it being centrifugal. After looking at it further, it might just be the twisting force of the engine, against the clutch springs that engages the clutches, but that would only be a one way action, and the 110 clearly stays engaged when going down hill "off the throttle" i.e. engine braking.

[greenhuman]

The trike should not roll in gear at idle. There are bob-weights under the plates which push on the clutch pack and springs as the revs increase other wise it should sit there not moving just like a manual clutched trike with the clutch lever pulled in.
To handle the extra HP of a 110 over a 90 for example, Honda put in beefier clutch springs. There are seven bob-weights in a standard auto clutch. With my old 300cc + 90's, I used to mod the clutch to take 10 bob-weights and use extra heavy duty springs and the clutches held up fine.

[riverrat]

Those "bob weights" work from centrifugal force?


Also, please explain your 300cc 90?

[greenhuman]

.They work very similar to modern lock up clutches. The bob-weights have an off set hole that allows them to have no pressure on the clutch pack at idle and when the engine revs increase the weights change position by centifugal force and apply pressure to the plates which push against the springs and bingo, off you go.
The 310cc 90 engines had Honda XL175 top ends grafted to 90 cases.

[shortline10]

Could possibly be 1 broken/weak clutch spring causing it to drag a bit . Need to pull the clutch cover and rebuild the clutch .

[3wheeledjunkie]

Before you tear into the little dude. Adjust the clutch first. This happens alot on the newer units we service, people try to adjust it and get it too tight, causing it to creep. Try that first before replacing parts. Loosen nut turn center screw both ways about a half turn to make sure everything is loose, then turn counter-clockwise till you feel resistance (and don't stop the first little bit of drag you feel, turn until you can't anymore) then turn back clockwise a 1/4 turn, tighten nut while holding the screw solid. See if that helps.

[hoser]

Instructions I found they are out of the service manual and owners manual .

[3wheelmecca]

I wish the Service manual on my E was that detailed, hope your clutch gets fixed, btw nice 110. Ive never seen one with a front end off a 200 on it.

[fabiodriven]

Before you tear into the little dude. Adjust the clutch first. This happens alot on the newer units we service, people try to adjust it and get it too tight, causing it to creep. Try that first before replacing parts. Loosen nut turn center screw both ways about a half turn to make sure everything is loose, then turn counter-clockwise till you feel resistance (and don't stop the first little bit of drag you feel, turn until you can't anymore) then turn back clockwise a 1/4 turn, tighten nut while holding the screw solid. See if that helps.

He's already said more than once he adjusted the clutch multiple times per the manual.

[riverrat]

.They work very similar to modern lock up clutches. The bob-weights have an off set hole that allows them to have no pressure on the clutch pack at idle and when the engine revs increase the weights change position by centifugal force and apply pressure to the plates which push against the springs and bingo, off you go.
The 310cc 90 engines had Honda XL175 top ends grafted to 90 cases.

So it is a centrifugal clutch. It just works differently (mechanically not theory) than one you would find on a mini bike. WIth the gear shift lever acting as an over ride.

I'd love to see an article on how you get 310cc's out of grafting a 175 top end on to a 90, sounds sick!
You kept the original crank?

*edit* I found the article...

[DogMan]

I wish the Service manual on my E was that detailed, hope your clutch gets fixed, btw nice 110. Ive never seen one with a front end off a 200 on it.

Thanks for the comment. I got both the idea for the 200 front end, and the colective wisdom for the swap, from right here on this forum. This is one of the most active, and helpful, boards that I frequent.

BTW, the difference in ride is remarkable versus the stock rigid forks of the 110 before I rebuilt.

[DogMan]

Could possibly be 1 broken/weak clutch spring causing it to drag a bit . Need to pull the clutch cover and rebuild the clutch .

Alas, I believe this is what must be done. I will try the adjustment ONE more time, but I am not hopeful. Then it's time to crack open the clutch. Thanks for the the great advice, guys. I will update this post once I have some results, but may take a few weeks.

[riverrat]

You could just try and turn the adjustment screw in a little more until the clutches stop engaging. Then if the trike acts normal, and doesn't slip, your good to go.
You could also try a different oil. But I would still take it apart to make sure there are no broken parts.