Honda 250SX Starter Trouble

[kdagenais]

I have a 1985 Honda 250Sx that I am having starter troubles. It is breaking teeth on the starter reduction gear repeatedly. I have been through about 8 gears in a short time frame. There is obviously something more than meets the eye but I cannot figure out where to begin. Any help somebody can give me it would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks In Advance,

[jeswinehart]

i had the nose cone bearings go out on my starter ( bigred) and it frozze up. i could see where if they had disinigrated it would still turn over but have so much slop that it might chew off the gears it engages.
i had to go to a bearing speacilty shop for the bearings,,, weren't exact but very close + works.

anybody else got any ideas ???

john

[Dirtcrasher]

I have a 1985 Honda 250Sx that I am having starter troubles. It is breaking teeth on the starter reduction gear repeatedly. I have been through about 8 gears in a short time frame. There is obviously something more than meets the eye but I cannot figure out where to begin. Any help somebody can give me it would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks In Advance,


Behind the rotor there is a one way clutch that allows the starter to freewheel when the motor starts - could be freezing up ever so often or just stuck.

[broook]

When you shut her off, does it spin and bring up with a clunk or bang?

If so it is your starter clutch located behind the rotor. It is a one way bearing that stops the engine kicking back on the starter reduction gears and the starter. It is starting to be a common problem now on the 85-87 250. I have replaced a half dozen now in the last few months. All on 85-86 Big Reds

[kdagenais]

Hello Broook,
Yes it does make a clunk sound when you shut it off. My question now is what part of the starter clutch will need to be replaced and is there anything else that should be replaced while I am at it.
Thank You,

[Howdy]

I have a 1985 Honda 250Sx that I am having starter troubles. It is breaking teeth on the starter reduction gear repeatedly. I have been through about 8 gears in a short time frame. There is obviously something more than meets the eye but I cannot figure out where to begin. Any help somebody can give me it would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks In Advance,

I am guessing when you shut the motor off you hear a wineing noise coming from the right side of the motor. You may also hear a "clunk" and the wineing stops.
Also, You probably would have a hard time trying to pull start or kick start the motor.
Am I Correct?

If this is the case then you need to replace the "Clutch, one-way".
Honda Part Number 91101-HA0-004
Honda Description: CLUTCH, ONE-WAY
Sugested Retail $91.42
www.Partsfish.com price is $81.43
www.servicehonda.com price is $66.87

This part is in the right centrifical clutch assembly on the right side of the motor. I have attatched a diagram of the clutches to help you locate it. It's part number 25. I have seen this same part go bad on at least 20 machines ( if not more ). This is One-way clutch clutch does many functions. It works to grip the crank shaft when trying to kickstart it and or pull start it. It also works to stop the motor from spinning backwards when shut off or during a failed start.
If the motor kicks backwards even a little when trying to start it or when you shut it off you will damage the starter gears.

Just for the record ( I'm not trying to start a argument here ): If the "Clutch" for the starter ( on the left side of the motor ) is bad the electric starter motor will just spin. It will not start the motor. If it's bad and the motor kicks back it won't engage thus the starter gears will not get damaged. The only way possible for it to damage the gears is if it locks in the engaged possition. Or someone installed it wrong. This clutch Only is used for the Electric starter. Thus it doesn't get as much wear as the " Clutch one-way" on the right side.
In 13+ years of working on 3 Wheelers ( Well over 50 250sx's & 250es BigReds ) I have never seen one of these ( left side clutch ) go bad.

I hope this helps. Peace!! ;)
Howdy

[broook]

Hi Howdy.

I don`t know how to answer that one. All I can say is that the "alternator clutches" I replaced have stopped the spinning and clunking after shut off and the "clutch sprag" has cured clutch slippage when going down hill slowly with a load of wood on. Also the "clutch sprag" cured kickstarter slippage problems.
I am allways willing to learn though, but just going by my past experiences. :)

[Howdy]

Hi Howdy.

I don`t know how to answer that one. All I can say is that the "alternator clutches" I replaced have stopped the spinning and clunking after shut off and the "clutch sprag" has cured clutch slippage when going down hill slowly with a load of wood on. Also the "clutch sprag" cured kickstarter slippage problems.
I am allways willing to learn though, but just going by my past experiences. :)

Not a problem. I wasn't trying to say you were wrong. I am just going by how they work. If it worked for SUPER!!! If you need any Flywheel side clutches let me know. They are like $150+ from partsfish.com . ;) I would sell mine way less. :) :) :p

[kdagenais]

Hello Howdy,
That sounds like another possiblity cause the kick starter fails to engage corectly also. When you try to kick start it only grabs at the beginng and then lets go as soon as you apply pressure. I thought this was a matter of the spring on the kick start assembly installed incorrectly. Is there any way I can check the one way clutch to know if is deemed a bad part before a buy unnecessary parts?

[broook]

Hi Howdy.

Will keep in touch on prices. Problem being exchange rate, [Canadian], postage, and customs duty. Sometimes everything is thrown way out of wack. Just like the clutches.

[Dirtcrasher]

Hi Howdy.

I don`t know how to answer that one. All I can say is that the "alternator clutches" I replaced have stopped the spinning and clunking after shut off and the "clutch sprag" has cured clutch slippage when going down hill slowly with a load of wood on. Also the "clutch sprag" cured kickstarter slippage problems.
I am allways willing to learn though, but just going by my past experiences. :)

Not a problem. I wasn't trying to say you were wrong. I am just going by how they work. If it worked for SUPER!!! If you need any Flywheel side clutches let me know. They are like $150+ from partsfish.com . ;) I would sell mine way less. :) :) :p

Howdy, I took apart the rotor side one way which seemed to work fine - but when I took it off and cleaned it, all those little oblong pieces started to fall out - is that due to wear or do they just do that when there not installed with something holding the inside diameter in there?? Thanks for any help

[broook]

Hi Kdagenais.

In your first post you did not mention the kickstart slipping. :oops:

Now you have to go to the clutch sprag to fix that one. Behind the centrifical clutch.

One for you Howdy. :-D

[kdagenais]

Hello All,
After further investigation I am going to start with the one way clutch (Clutch Sprag). I ordered the parts thought Service Honda. I can not believe the price differnece between them and anybody else (Dealer included). I will let you all know how it turns out when I get it back together.
Also would like to Thank everyone for the information cause I had no idea where to begin. Just wanted to say that is my first post since I signed up on this forum and am impressed with the info within. It is great to have a place where you can go to get good information to help you solve a problem. Cause lord only knows we aren't all rich and can afford to take our bikes to shop to get fixed at a $45 (plus in some cases) an hour labor rate.
Thanks Again,

[broook]

It is great to have a place where you can go to get good information to help you solve a problem. Cause lord only knows we aren't all rich and can afford to take our bikes to shop to get fixed at a $45 (plus in some cases) an hour labor rate.


Oh so true. Thats why most of us try to fix our own. If you have to take it to a dealer everytime something goes wrong it is just as well to give him the machine and go look for another one. :(
Yes this is a great board for info. :-D
I also own a Honda 6 cylinder CBX motorcycle with 24 valves and 6 carbs. if I didn,t do my own work I would have to take it off the road. :?

[Howdy]

Hi Kdagenais.

In your first post you did not mention the kickstart slipping. :oops:

Now you have to go to the clutch sprag to fix that one. Behind the centrifical clutch.

One for you Howdy. :-D
:D :D :D
I just mentioned it because it helps figure out what the problem is. I don't count the "Who's Right" any more. Just as long as we help find the problem!! ;)


It is great to have a place where you can go to get good information to help you solve a problem. Cause lord only knows we aren't all rich and can afford to take our bikes to shop to get fixed at a $45 (plus in some cases) an hour labor rate.
Thanks Again,

Don't talk too loudly, You haven't recieved our bill yet. lmao j/k ;)

Howdy

[kdagenais]

Hello All,
Just wanted to let you know I got my parts today and put my bike back together and it appears to be working. By replacing the one way clutch it fixed my clutch slipping problem, Kick starter, and the nasty clunk after you turn off the motor. Haven't been able to test the starter out yet cause I haven't got the new gears yet but am confident it will be fine.

The only down side I discoverd the broken teeth from the starter got to my stator and tore it up some. The good thing is it is still charging as of right now. I will try to ride it out as long as I can before I replace it.

I would like to say Thank You, to Howdy for the excellent info in helping fix my problem. This is my first post and obviously I has several issues do to this one part.
Thank You,
Keith

[Howdy]

Your Welcome. It is no problem on the help. That is why we are here. ;)
Howdy

[jdulac]

I had posted earlier about starting problems with my 250sx and found out i had more problems than i thought. When i removed the starter which i knew was bad i also found the gears on the armature were all worn out. And also found out the 43T/18T gears had a few teeth missing on the 43teeth part. Well i got a new starter and a new 43T/18T gear but before i replace this i want to make sure i don't need one of these one way clutch pieces. Does this sound like it was caused originally by the one way clutch piece? I can kick start but sometimes the kick starter will cause it to make a clunking noise when it doesn't start. Other times it starts right up but i do need to put some pressure on it. I also noticed today when i turned it off it made a clunk sound right when it shut off. This may be a stupid question but where is this one way clutch located. Do I access it from the starter side or the kick starter side? Again thanks for your help. You guys have been great on solving these problems and i' love learning as I go.

[jdulac]

bump

[Howdy]

I had posted earlier about starting problems with my 250sx and found out i had more problems than i thought. When i removed the starter which i knew was bad i also found the gears on the armature were all worn out. And also found out the 43T/18T gears had a few teeth missing on the 43teeth part. Well i got a new starter and a new 43T/18T gear but before i replace this i want to make sure i don't need one of these one way clutch pieces. Does this sound like it was caused originally by the one way clutch piece?

Yes this sounds like a case of "Worn out one-way clutch Blues". I have seen 5-10 starters and gears sets chewed up like this.


I can kick start but sometimes the kick starter will cause it to make a clunking noise when it doesn't start. Other times it starts right up but i do need to put some pressure on it. I also noticed today when i turned it off it made a clunk sound right when it shut off.

I am willing to bet some times when starting it with the kick starter it don't turn the motor over. Correct?
Also as I have ask before I am betting when you do get it running and shut the motor off you hear a whirling noise for a bit then the clunk noise. Correct?

If so the problem is the one-way clutch. While it isn't a cheap part by itself, when you factor in the damage to the other parts it causes it only makes good sence to replace it also.


This may be a stupid question but where is this one way clutch located. Do I access it from the starter side or the kick starter side? Again thanks for your help. You guys have been great on solving these problems and i' love learning as I go.

Not a stupid question at all. It is located inside the right ( kick starter ) side ( clutch ) cover on the motor. The one-way clutch is behind the centrifical clutch ( see picture towards the top of this thread ). When you remove the kick starter & then the right side case ( clutch cover ), you will see the Clutch on the crank shaft. That is the centrifical clutch. ;)
Howdy

[jdulac]

Thanks. For the price i may as well and replace so that i don't break any more gears and my new/old startor. PS i don't remember hearing a winding sound but i definitely hear a clunk sound when the motor stops.

[jdulac]

Ok how the heck do i get part 15 (20 mm nut) in the diagram above off because the clutch is just spinning?

[broook]

I use an impact wrench. Comes right off.
Don`t forget it is a left hand thread.

[jdulac]

Ok i replaced the one way clutch and i'm still getting the clunking noises. What else could it be? When i try to start it with the electirc start it is very loud and I'm not even sure it is turning over. I'm just finishing painted my gas tank so i still have not run it yet since putting it all together. Just afraid i'm going to chew up another starter.

[kdagenais]

After replacing the one way clutch does the kickstarter appear to be working properly know? Also where did you get the starter from (New or Used)?

[jdulac]

The kickstarter always seemed to work fairly. Its just sometimes when I kick it, it makes loud clunking noises as it reaches the end of the kick. I guess almost like its kicking back. I bought the starter used but i have tested it and it spins fine.

[kdagenais]

I assume that you replaced your starter reduction gears with a new set. If so did you grind the cover that holds them in place for the proper clearance. The directions usually come with the new gears.
Also check the starter gear 0On Starter Itself) and see if if has any slop in it. Then ensure both shafts are in place correctly and the second gear has a thrush washer on the outside (towards the cover).
The only part left is the starter clutch which is behind the flywheel under the left cover. But however as Howdy has stated in this post these are rarely bad but you never know. I do not know what to tell you to look for to see if the this clutch is bad.

[broook]

If the kickstarter isn`t slipping and she doesn`t tend to overun when slowing down with the gears it is probibly the one way clutch behind the flywheel, alternator.
You will need a torx head bit with an impact wrench to get it off the back of the flywheel. i have changed quite a few of these lately and it has cured the kickback problems and starter teeth chewups.

Good luck. I think Howdy will sell you one for a good price. The Honda price is ridiculous.

[jdulac]

I already replaced the one way clutch. I did not replace any starter reduction gears. The only one I replaced was the 18t/43t gear which had some teeth missing (this is the one that the starter spins). Which i picked up used.

[kdagenais]

the clutch brook is refering to is the one behind the flywheel (Under the left crankcase cover). This is the one I mentioned that I have no idea how to tell if it is bad or not.
Did you check the cover for the starter reduction gear that you replaced is hitting the cover. One way you could check this by taking the cover off place the gear and shaft into the cover and spin the gear to see if it hits anything. These are the only items you have left to check:
1: Clutch under flywheel
2: Placement of gears
3: Slop in starter gear
4:Starter gear housing cut out
I would check items 2 - 4 first if it is not them I would try to contact Howdy to see if he can tell you how to check the clutch behind the flywhee before you go and replace something else you might not need.
Good Luck! let us know how it turns out.

[ejc042]

My father-in-laws 85 Big Red just started making a whirring noise that ends with a small clunk. This happens when you shut the motor off. I am doing a top end rebuild soon. It sounds like a one way bearing is in my future as well. How long does it usually take before this noise results in other damage?

[kdagenais]

The damage will be as follows: it will bust teeth of your starter reduction gears and the pieces will fall into your stator assembly (alternator) and tear it up. I am not sure how long it will take to get to this point but to the $60.00 invest ment in the one way clutch is well worth when you think of how much a stator can cost some times.

[honda_atc200es]

old thread, but i have a similar issue. my 200sx (same motor as say a 200s i think?, has electric start, semi-auto clutch) when i first went to start it, i pulled the pull starter, and it seemed to try and turn the electric start as well, it was really hard to pull and made a whining noise. i figured since the starter didnt work anyway, i would take out the gear. so i did that and relied on the pull start, occasionally the pull rope would get ripped from my hands and white smoke would puff out the intake. the bike would start though after a while and i thought maybe it was an issue with the pull start. i swap over a working electric start, and before i put the gear in i test it, it works great. i put the gear in, and i go to start it and i hear a horrible loud clunk, i didnt try again after that i was afraid i broke something. i can rotate the engine backwards, so maybe its the one way clutch?