How much longer would 3W have been produced?

[Micahdogg]

If the ban never happened?

I was just thinking about this. It seems pretty evident to me that when the quadracer came out, people were noticing the advantages to 4 wheels immediately. In 1986 the TRX250R was poised to make the ATC look inferior. This may not have happened right away in 1986, but I would have to think a lot of guys would have been trading their 3 wheels for 4 by 1987.

So I'm wondering, do you think Honda would have really held onto their ATC 250R up to 1989? While we have good proof that they cared about it into 1987, did Yamaha or Kawasaki show any interest in continuing their 3 wheelers into 1987?

Micah

[oldskool83]

its hard to say, you would need to find someone who road or worked for honda RND to find out what was being kicked around for the future. they very well might have fazed the racing trikes out by later years and been left the the putt around have fun rides....no one will know unless you find somone who worked inside RND for one of these companies

[81k]

Kawaaki cared about them into '87 because there were 1987 Tecates.

[Micahdogg]

I guess I never realized they had a 87 KXT? How did they pull that off...was it just released super early in 1986? Are there any brochures, ad's, or magazine tests of a 87 KXT?

[Saul]

Ban or no ban - 1987 or maybe 1988 woulda been the end of 3w's ... in the high performace dept you had the Honda TRX250R and Suzuki Quadracer - two machines far superior to any trike on any race track. All of the or at least 99% of the pro's were clamoring to jump off trikes and onto quads.

In the utility & trail riding market you had the big red VS the 300 & 350 foreman - we all know the 300 & 350 foremans were some of the greatest utility machines ever made.

Trikes have & always will have their place in history, again, I LOVE three wheelers - but when the Honda designed the TRX (250R sport and 300/350 UTE models) 3 wheelers were finished.

There is just no comparison whatsoever.

[Saul]

I think a lot of the 87 models, like the tecates were just the company trying to actually get rid of/sell/make money off of parts already produced instead of having the money/resources to just destroy/crush parts/frames like Honda could.

[ATC-Eric]

I guess I never realized they had a 87 KXT? How did they pull that off...was it just released super early in 1986? Are there any brochures, ad's, or magazine tests of a 87 KXT?

Kawasaki kept the tecate going threw 87. To cater to the safety concerns with trikes, they added a key switch, and parking brake. Thats the only difference between 86-87. So Kawis tried to keep going in some form!


Honda produced the bigred till 88 in other country's that didn't have the cease agreement.

The company's would have sold them as long as people wanted them. I think they would still be alive today in one form or another.

[oldskool83]

thats prob a true saul about the left over parts

[Micahdogg]

I guess that is weird that Honda made dealers stop selling, told them to chop frames and return stuff that was sitting on the showroom floor...and at the same time Kawi threw the rest of their parts together and blasted out 87 models. What is up with that?

[eyecekold1]

I still think they would have made the 3 wheeler. Its the perfect sand dune machine. There were some professional racers like Jimmy White who prefered 3 wheelers over 4 wheelers. It would be cool to see what 3 wheelers would look like if they still made them. But if they still made them most of us probably wouldn't love them so much.

[Dammit!]

If it weren't for the CPSC and even more so, the lawsuits, I think trikes would have lasted at least until the mid 90's. Maybe they'd still be around today. Who knows. We know Honda had a 500R deep into pre-production but those lawsuits put the brakes on everything. Even performance quads stagnated for a LONG time because of all that crap.

By the time 1986 rolled around, the writing was already on the wall. The courts were (retardedly) ruling against the manufacturers, costing them millions of dollars in damages. Make no mistake, none of the big three had any interest in trikes post 1986. The few 87 models were virtually identical to their 1986 counterparts. Once those were gone, they weren't going to make more, CPSC or not.

[Saul]

There were some professional racers like Jimmy White who prefered 3 wheelers over 4 wheelers.

ORLY? :confused:

Got a quote to back that one up? I think you might have Jimmy confused with Coe.

[Saul]

thats prob a true saul about the left over parts

I'd tell you it was 100% true but the diehards would tear me from limb to limb asking for 'proof' and I really don't wanna publicly print conversations I've had with people who were there, would and do know much more about all of these better then us.

I'll see about getting permission to post some quotes if you would like?

[eyecekold1]

There was an interview in a quad magazine with Jimmy White when he became the head of kawasaki's quad race team, and he was saying that he found riding the 4 wheelers to easy, so he stopped racing. I'll find the article and post a link of it up tonight.

[Saul]

There was an interview in a quad magazine with Jimmy White when he became the head of kawasaki's quad race team, and he was saying that he found riding the 4 wheelers to easy, so he stopped racing. I'll find the article and post a link of it up tonight.

VERY interested in reading this! :idea:

[factoryX]

I've read this(somewhere on this site?) to that a lot of racers did not even like quads but raced them anyway for factory support...

[eyecekold1]

Saul, I couldn't find the article on line yet but I know I read it as soon as I find it I will post it up.

[hondawasaki]

ORLY? :confused:

Got a quote to back that one up? I think you might have Jimmy confused with Coe.

God you can be such a douche, heres your quote know it all.......


http://www.3wheelerworldforums.com/showpost.php?p=658856&postcount=1

[eyecekold1]

Thanks for finding that Ken, I knew I read it.

[factoryX]

Ban or no ban - 1987 or maybe 1988 woulda been the end of 3w's ... in the high performace dept you had the Honda TRX250R and Suzuki Quadracer - two machines far superior to any trike on any race track. All of the or at least 99% of the pro's were clamoring to jump off trikes and onto quads.

In the utility & trail riding market you had the big red VS the 300 & 350 foreman - we all know the 300 & 350 foremans were some of the greatest utility machines ever made.

Trikes have & always will have their place in history, again, I LOVE three wheelers - but when the Honda designed the TRX (250R sport and 300/350 UTE models) 3 wheelers were finished.

There is just no comparison whatsoever.

Dude, the trx250r is great and everything, BUT this is a way off course. My current trike(85 atc250) whoops my My 86 trx300r trailprotrailprotrailprotrailprotrailpro any day. I traded straight across for it, things kept breaking on the trx and after sinking a grand in parts I got tired. When I traded the guy he thought I was crazy for trading till I popped wheelie in 4th gear:TrikesOwn . I know that you now have a trx250r but do you see other people being pricks about how much better there trx250r's are on this site? I prefer a trike at the dunes, trails, desert, snow, and how effortless it is loading and unloading it out of my van. Also, how could you even say a quad is better in mx if you don't even jump? the video of you jumping show you casing it. http://www.youtube.com/user/AIRFOOLERSDOTCOM#p/a/u/1/hlY1zpoDgcM

[Billy Golightly]

I've made this comparison before, but I liken quads to sit down Jetskis. and three-wheelers to stand-ups. Sitdown's and quads became more popular because they were easier to ride for 90% of the population. I think Seadoo and maybe a few others still make stand ups (kawi, maybe?) But if the ban hadn't of happened, I think thats pretty much how the ATV industry would have turned out. A few companies would have stuck with them and offered them as expert level machines, and most everyone else would have ditched them for the more consumer friendly versions.

[Saul]

God you can be such a douche, heres your quote know it all.......


http://www.3wheelerworldforums.com/showpost.php?p=658856&postcount=1

Yes, yes I can be a douche. I have NO problem admitting that. :lol:

And here is another quote for you, straight from Jimmy as of yesterday.


What I said was anyone can ride/race a quad and it takes a special talent to race 3W’s.

The real reason I quit though is the money went away no matter if you won or not. It was hard to swallow when your getting paid $60k a year to race from Kawi and then I had to pay to race starting in 1987. Spent about 30k of my own money that year and had a new baby so went back to work.

Which sucked for sure and if things don't change soon we might see a repeat of those days as early as next season for a lot of racers. :(

Anyways - it's not worth bantering back and forth with three wheeler owners about which is better.

[Saul]

Dude, the trx250r is great and everything, BUT this is a way off course.

Way off course? You quoted my reply as to why I feel the trike wouldn't haveen continued to be produced. In my opinion the superiority of the machines being developed (300 and 350 4X4 foreman for farmers, hunters & 250R TRX for racers) compared to their counterparts (atc250r and Big Red) would have probably signaled the end for trikes in sales with consumers.



My current trike(85 atc250) whoops my My 86 trx300r trailprotrailprotrailprotrailprotrailpro any day. I traded straight across for it, things kept breaking on the trx and after sinking a grand in parts I got tired. When I traded the guy he thought I was crazy for trading till I popped wheelie in 4th gear:TrikesOwn .

That's awesome. It's great how nothing ever breaks on a three wheeler. Main selling point ... and 4th gear wheelies. :w00t:



I know that you now have a trx250r but do you see other people being pricks about how much better there trx250r's are on this site?

I also still have a 300R and a Big Red. So what? If the topic comes up a person shouldn't say how and why they feel a quad is a better machine while still maintaining love and respect for the 3w platform?

That's just plain silly.

Yeah - I hate three wheelers - I just spend money out of my own pocket and endless hours of my own spare time maintaining a website dedicated to them out of pure hatred. Get real.


I prefer a trike at the dunes, trails, desert, snow, and how effortless it is loading and unloading it out of my van.

Many people prefer trikes for various reasons. That's a huge reason why there are so many still out there being restored and rode - hard.

I think a 3w is the best machine for, say, 300ft drags and such too.


Also, how could you even say a quad is better in mx if you don't even jump? the video of you jumping show you casing it. http://www.youtube.com/user/AIRFOOLERSDOTCOM#p/a/u/1/hlY1zpoDgcM

Yeah :rolleyes: :lol:

I actually came up short 3 times before I figured out the proper run up speed to that ramp.

I dunno what that video has to do with anyone saying a quad is better at MX. I honestly don't think anyone is argue that point - would they?

I didn't mean to get anyones panties in a bunch by making this wild proclamation that I feel quads outperform three wheelers in many ways.

uh :TrikesOwn

[Dammit!]

What I said was anyone can ride/race a quad and it takes a special talent to race 3W’s.


Great quote.

[Micahdogg]

No reason to get into which is better, a 3W or a quad. The original topic was just to hear some speculation from people far more knowledgable than me as to where they thought 3W's were headed. I'm still baffled that the 250R quad only lasted a 4 year run. So I wouldn't be shocked to hear that Honda naturally planned on phasing their ATC's out regardless of the ban.

I'm 31, so I was a little too young to really observe the early racing years. I can only piece it together through stories and articles like the one linked. I was at the perfect age though when 3 wheelers had a bad rap and you could routinely pick them up for dirt cheap, which is how I came to own a 81 250R when I was 16. A friend had a 83/84 250R that I rode quite a bit as well. Those memories let me to purchase my 86 250R which I always thought were the baddest things ever.

As for that article about Jimmy White, it was a very interesting read. I didn't see any quote where he said he "preferred 3 wheelers over 4 wheelers" though. He did say he resisted the change to a quad because he thought 3W racing would be around forever. When he was finally persuaded to buy a quad, he enjoyed the hell out of it because they were 10 times easier to ride.

I enjoy 3W's for the same reason. I get a kick out of seeing someone hop on a ATC250R like they would a moped...and you know they have NO idea what is coming. Then they either wind up on their azz wondering what went wrong or just scare the crap out of themselves and want off. I like taming the wild beast and knowing that I can pilot something that not everyone can ride. Any newbie can pick up a 450F quad and putt around on it.

Micah

[Saul]

Great quote.

Haha yeah - that's exactly what I said to Jimmy. Obviously the guy still loves 3w'ers - hell thats where he made his money, thats where he really found his fame and fortune and spent most of his time.

He's gunna bring his old factory Tecate out to Glamis next November and I can't wait to hop on it and give it a whirl! :w00t:

(I better not destroy his old factory racer) :eek:

[oldskool83]

i say they would of eventuraly got fazed out, same fate the 2 strokes have been dealing with every since high performace 4 strokes came out in 1998. prob by 1990 they would of been done for, racers for sure, maybe ones like the 250sx and put around ones could of lasted longer.

either way the trx250r only lasted 4 years also. 250x's 2 years brought back and then killed in 2 years again.

but the non high perforamce quads were still sold for longer periods.

its all a conspericy i tell u, we were set up.

[deathman53]

I think the hi-perf trikes would have stayed around to 88 or 89. The 200x, 250sx, big reds and such would be around as long as there is a demand for them. Yeah, the racers were going with the quads, simply because of money and them being easier to ride faster/longer. Think of it, its still kinda true now, in 04 and 05 the trx250r's were shoved out of pro racing in a big hurry, through new rules and such. All for the 4 strokes, in which a good number of racers still would like to race their trx250r or hybrid trx250r. Funny part is, the 4 strokes are far more expensive to race, but here we go again, money talks. Out with the old, in with the new and lets sell our new models, we can't let mid 80's designs kick our asses, I know, lets make up a bunch of BS rules and new classes to shove the old out!!!!!!!!!!!!!. I bet the same would have happened with the trikes.

In a recent tt race, shane hit and tim farr raced their trx250r's, they kicked ass on most of the people there. One of the guys had a head gasket issue and couldn't rev it out past 3/4, thats the only reason he got 3rd or 4th. I don't know what the guy w/o head gasket issues got.

[Lukeatc185]

i think that if the ban never happend. they would still be produced to date. there are many better alternatives to other things in life. it does'nt mean they stop making them. the quad racer might have caught everyones eye. but many people stick with what they like. and as long as there selling pretty much at all. they would still be making them.

[inv3ctiv3]

I think people are right and saying they either would have died out a few years after (late 80's early 90's) except for a few select models. Even without the ban people think poorly of ATC's and they are always connected to a bad story about how they flipped one or know someone who flipped one. They have a negative connotation attatched with their very name....

[UlsterATCFan]

All of us have probably mulled this over time and time again - leaving the CPSC consent decrees / ban aside, would three wheelers still be manufactured today if the manufacturers were left to their own devices? And most of us, while we love three wheelers, deep down know that the truth is that they probably wouldn't be. The same way that deep down we probably all know that quads corner better than 3 wheelers. (This is blasphemy I know!!) If we draw a comparison to VHS video versus DVD - I don't know this for gospel fact but I seriously doubt that new movies are being released on VHS, the fact is that some formats become obsolete over time and when the demand drops manufacturing ceases. Would there be enough demand in the world today to justify reintroduction of full scale 3 wheeler manufacturing? Also as inv3 mentions above, most non-trike people think that trikes are hazardous, I spoke to 2 people in Ireland last week about ATC's and their first reaction was 'those things are dangerous' - we all know that they are not dangerous at all in competent hands but if you ride a 3 wheeler recklessly you're going to get badly burned eventually (same could be said about quads I know). Anyway a combination of the above factors plus the CPSC interferance has resulted in the unfortunate demise of the 3 wheeler, probably never to be manufactured again though I wish one of the manufacturers (namely Honda) would prove me wrong

[Saul]

^^^^

A voice of reason!

Well said UlsterATCFan. Well said.

[Micahdogg]

I guess we could take some notes from the 2 stroke MX bikes. They have steadily been produced from pretty much the dawn of time until the mid 2000's. Even though the YZ400F was launched in 1998, people were hesitant to abandon their 2 stroke mills. In fact, even through 2005 when the field was half mixed with thumpers and 2 strokes, many top level riders were still piloting 2 strokes.

It was right around 2006 when the full on thumper take-over happened and the majority of riders switched up. Up to this point, the only model not offered for 2006 was the KX125. And it wasn't necessarily discontinued, but just not imported to America. But after seeing the dominance in 2006....WOW, things changed big time. Honda announced that 2007 would be their last run of the entire 2 stroke line. Kawasaki announced the KX250 would end. Suzuki announced the RM125 would end. This was a devistating year. Then last year Suzuki announced that the RM250 would end production.

These were all great bikes that many consumers never even raced, but just purchased for their own personal trail bike. The big 4 didn't even blink about the average consumer though, it was a racing driven decision. So really, if you could calculate how long it would take for the majority of 3W riders to jump ship, I think you could pinpoint when the big 3 would have slated their racing models.

Beyond that, I'm not sure how the trail models would have gone. If the manufactures priced them attractively I think they could have sold well against their quad counterparts up to 1990. But from 1990-1995 I bet you would have seen trail/utility 3W's slowly phased out.

[Dammit!]

The demise of the 2-stroke is completely the fault of the greenies getting them outlawed in California. As California goes, the market goes (eventually). I think most of the FMX guys are still running 2-strokes. I know Pastrana does.

[this guy]

Yeah FMX is still very 2 stroke heavy, but as to the fate of 3 wheels I am not so sure. Honda failed to come up with a viable replacement for the 350x till 1998(400ex). That was a viable trail machine up untill that point. Just imagine a 1997 350x with the wicked 97' XR look, heck that chasis would have been a viable starting point for the 400ex with the electric start XR400 motor in it less weight and way more power. Looks good too.

[Micahdogg]

That is a big misconception. First, no 450cc MX bike meets emissions currently. Second, EPA emission standards aren’t enforced in racing.

I have thoroughly discussed this topic over the past several years and the reason for the demise of the 2 stroke is multi-faceted. For years, the AMA has encouraged 4 stroke development in the Pro classes by allowing at one point up to a 550cc 4 stroke to compete against 250 2 strokes. From time to time you would see a homologated contraption with a huge XR motor show up to a race, but the low revving technology combined with the extra weight never made them a serious threat.

Yamaha wasn’t driven to produce the YZ400M in 1997 because of the EPA, they did it to exploit a rule that stood on the AMA books. Once they did it, and successfully ironed out the 426 and 450, everyone else started to jump on board because the 4 stroke bikes had clear racing advantages. While 450’s didn’t dominate until 2006, the 250F’s were clearly showing their potential much earlier.

So now you have the big 4 wanting to produce 4 strokes, and they have excellent representation on the AMA board. This is why the displacement limits were never amended for closer competition. They all saw a new market to exploit and wanted to win races. What I don’t think any of them expected was the huge boom in dealer service work. I don’t know anyone who pays a dealer to work on their 2 stroke bike, but I know several friends who take their 250F/450F’s in for valve jobs. A good friend of mine who routinely rebuilt his TRX250R did his own valve job on his new YFZ450 the first time, but then started taking it to the dealer just because he said it was a big pain in the arse to do. To him it was worth the money to just take it in. And you see a LOT of this happening.

So now the sport got more expensive for the rider, and dealers who help make up the AMA Congress don’t want to give up the extra money they are making on parts and labor. There have been recent strides to close the gap by track owners and enthusiasts who sit on the AMA Congress, but aside from getting the common class rule passed for the Amateur side of racing, they get shot down. Just a few days ago Davey Cooms advocated for a common class rule in the Pro Lites class and was overwhelmingly shot down from the OEM’s with, “250 vs. 250 isn’t fair.” Emissions is just not the issue…but as usual, money is.