200x head on a 200s PICS

[litebulblsc]

I have been thinking of putting a 200x head and valvetrain on my 1985 200s. It should make a little more power. Plus it would take care of a few problems my trike has. How difficult would this be and is it just an easy swap? Does the 200x head have a smaller combustion chamber resulting in higher compression? How hard are these timing chains to do, I have did them on cars before but never on a cycle. What year 200x head would work? Would it matter if it a one or two peice?


Answers to any of these questions would help.

Thanks in advance,
Josh

[Yamaha_Rules69]

The 200x head from the years of 83-85. It is a very easy swap to do, and the timing is easy enough to figure out. It should make a little more power, especially if you use the X carb and cam. Do you plan on using the 200x cam also? All the parts are a direct swap. Make sure you use a new head gasket, and dont use too much sealer on the rocker arm cover. Review a service manual if needed. Good luck!

[litebulblsc]

Ya I plan to use the cam and carb if I can find one cheap enough. Right now it looks like the head and cam I might be able to get fro 20 dollars.

[AutoXer]

the valve size is the same .... how does it make any more power? Head volume also looks the same (the x had a flat top piston to get a higher compression number)

[litebulblsc]

Different cam

[inv3ctiv3]

I have a used head and rocker head cover from my '85 200x for sale, probably needs a valve job but other then that it seems fine.

[litebulblsc]

How much shipped to 48145?

[inv3ctiv3]

How much shipped to 48145?

$45?

http://i.ebayimg.com/23/!BY69Pf!BWk~$(KGrHgoOKkUEjlLmTeZqBKkJZTe0mQ~~_12.J PG

http://i.ebayimg.com/22/!BY69Rig!Wk~$(KGrHgoOKjkEjlLmZBiZBKkJZfWj1w~~_12.J PG

http://i.ebayimg.com/01/!BY69VyQB2k~$(KGrHgoOKjIEjlLmW!tGBKkJZ4z1Pw~~_12.J PG

[litebulblsc]

I got a line on a cheaper one right now but if that doesn't work out I will keep you in mind. Do you have a cam you could throw in too?

[inv3ctiv3]

I got a line on a cheaper one right now but if that doesn't work out I will keep you in mind. Do you have a cam you could throw in too?

I don't but the $45 was obo, let me know I am open to offers.

[litebulblsc]

Sent pm to ya

[jenndnn3]

The changes are in the cam and pistons. Not in the heads.. Rockers changed for compatibility to the decompression.

[MonroeMike]

Different cam

Same part number for the 200s and the 200x?

CAMSHAFT 14101-965-000

[litebulblsc]

You know they have the same part number or are you trying to find out if they do?

[MonroeMike]

I looked them both up. Just wondering how they could be different, with the same part number.

[jenndnn3]

They arent.

The 185 was different. But rumor has it they are discontinued. (been out of 200x mode for ages so someone will have to verify) As was the xr200r. But its changes yielded little.. The change for performance is really in this combination.
XR200r piston and cylinder with the topend matching to whichever trike you have (decompression) with the 185 cam.

[litebulblsc]

I always heard they were different. Need someone with both to take measurements to see if there is any difference

[MonroeMike]

I thought they were different too. I see the cam listed for the 185 is the same also. Apparently, Service Honda only offers one replacement for all now.

[shortline10]

Heads are the same on a 200x /185/200s/m/e Exc but the X model dosent have a decompression lever because the others are pull start motors . The cams on the X and xr models have a bit more lift . the 200x factory piston is a flat top design and the 185/200 models have a convex low compression piston .

[oscarmayer]

yea theya re exactly the same. the only difference in the cams and on the 200x the whole for the decompression lever was never drilled by the factory. (recommended for a 200s unless you like hurting your arm)

[litebulblsc]

I pull start my without compression release with no problems.

[shortline10]

I pull start my without compression release with no problems.

Do you Still have the factory compression piston :wondering ? A factory 200X or high compression piston can be a painful experience until you get the feel for it :naughty:

[Yamada]

Today, Honda only list one part number for every 185/200/200x camshaft because they discontinued all the others. There was a thread about it somewhere on the forum.

[leevarnado]

click the link,little info i posted awhile back about the cams

http://www.3wheelerworldforums.com/showthread.php?t=94783&highlight=crf230+cam

[litebulblsc]

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://images.cmsnl.com/img/models/honda-atc200m-85-us_medium00007179_a66f.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.cmsnl.com/honda-atc200m-85-us_model7179/partslist/&usg=__Q5pi9UEk-sw24S-_CFdL3IgAwXI=&h=190&w=280&sz=16&hl=en&start=4&um=1&tbnid=1yP7OgEZLd8B3M:&tbnh=77&tbnw=114&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dhonda%2Batc200m%26hl%3Den%26client%3D firefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26hs%3DMYi%26sa%3DN%26um%3D1



If you go to the above they list two different cams for the 200s. I didn't check other models cam numbers though

Also if I get a used 200x cam and put it on my 200s will there be any performance advantage if the cams are different?
The 200s has new exhaust and a better flowing air filter.




One last thing. The description of the cam I am eye'ing read this- Camshaft has wear...There is a spot of very light pitting that I can barely feel with my fingernail on the top of one of the lobes...Remaining lobe has a spot of light pitting on the edge of the lobe...Gear Teeth and threads are ALL whole, and in good shape

Do you think this means it is unusable or should it be okay?

[leevarnado]

the reason its two diff cams is because one is the original and the other is the one thats replaced it.the original cams are no longer available,now there is just the one cam that has the same part numbers as the rest.i wouldnt use any cam that has any type of wear,that wouldnt be very smart.but thats just my opion.

[litebulblsc]

Well my engine is still together and I don't know if my cam is even in any better condition.

[MonroeMike]

I agree with leevarnado, I wouldn't use it.

Post for one in the classfieds here, maybe someone has one.

[litebulblsc]

it was listed on ebay for 99 cents. that was the main reason I was interested.

[leevarnado]

is this the cam your watching,if so that cam isnt any good.its worn badly,an 185 cam would prob have more lift than that one.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/84-Honda-ATC200X-ATC200-ATC-200-ATV-Camshaft-Cam_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp3286Q2ec0Q2em14QQha shZitem518c08aa5bQQitemZ350241729115QQptZMotorsQ5f ATVQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories

[litebulblsc]

Ya thats the one. I will pass on it then.

[leevarnado]

look for a xr200 cam.

[litebulblsc]

none currently on ebay

I will probably post a wtb here for a 200x cam

[shortline10]

none currently on ebay

I will probably post a wtb here for a 200x cam

I have a few 200x cams if your interested . Let me know ? stock and aftermarket .:beer

[litebulblsc]

I have a few 200x cams if your interested . Let me know ? stock and aftermarket .:beer


Cheap?
PM me a price range

[oscarmayer]

spend the $ and get a stage1 web cam, it's more punch than even the xr200 cam.

[litebulblsc]

That cam new cost more then I have in my wheeler already including purchase price

[AutoXer]

That cam new cost more then I have in my wheeler already including purchase price

and a bigger better faster wheeler will cost more than that ???? trailpro trailpro trailpro :lol:

[litebulblsc]

I am in no means looking to build a race cycle. I am just replacing a head and figured I would throw a new cam in it for more power.

Later in life when I get the money I will buy a 250r for my race cycle...

[litebulblsc]

Bought a head and a cam.

Any reading I can do on timing chains?


After recieving and installing these the next thing on the list would be exhaust...

[leevarnado]

search for manuals ,they are free to download

[MonroeMike]

200s http://72.52.143.80/~trikes/Manuals/ATC%20manuals/ATC200S%2084-86%20Shop%20Manual.pdf

200x http://72.52.143.80/~trikes/atc200x_83-85_servicemanual.pdf

[oscarmayer]

just for the record you do understand your NOT gaining anything by stuffing a 200x head on there right? and actually you may be loosing a little if your keeping the 185 piston and jug as theya re smaller and the head for the 200 will have a larger chamber for bore size fitment and that means less compression than you had before despite the cam change it may not do anything. unless your old head is bad, keep it and jsut do a cam, exhaust and carb mod. (and foam filter)

[litebulblsc]

I don't have a 185, I have a 200s. So their should be no performance lost nor gained from the head. My heads exhaust stud threads are messed up past rethreading, my compression release sprays oil out of it, and I have a few damaged cooling fins. So I figured I would get a used 200x head (no compression release) that has no other damage and I would make out good. Fiured while I am getting a 200x head, might as well get a new cam while I am at it

[litebulblsc]

200s http://72.52.143.80/~trikes/Manuals/ATC%20manuals/ATC200S%2084-86%20Shop%20Manual.pdf

200x http://72.52.143.80/~trikes/atc200x_83-85_servicemanual.pdf



I was trying to look at manuals like that last night. What does my computer need to see those, I can't get them to load. I tried getting a new adobe reader but that didn't help.

Noticed your right up the road from.

[MonroeMike]

If you have a PDF reader installed. Try right clicking and saving it to your hard drive and then open it.

I myself use Foxit Reader for PDF files, not Adobe.

I see that your close to Monroe. I have a brother that lives in LaSalle.

[litebulblsc]

Ok i will try it and see what happens.


All firefoxs fault, it didn't allow me to properly download adobe reader.

[litebulblsc]

One question on the timing. It shows that you line an o up with an arrow for the cam, but then it says something about lining a T up. I assume this is for the crank, correct? And where would I see this at?

[MonroeMike]

Unscrew the little inspection cap on the left crankcase cover.

[litebulblsc]

Okay, thanks

[shortline10]

Cam is on its way . USPS priority mail shipped it about 20 min ago . Thanks

[litebulblsc]

Sweet. Should be here by the weekend then, I think.

[shortline10]

prob friday you will get it .

[litebulblsc]

Alright, sounds good.


Thanks,
Josh

[oscarmayer]

tehre's manuals in my sig as well.
that's cool then. I just didn't want you to think that you were going to gain performance when there are no changes.

[litebulblsc]

So I saw the 200s only has 7.8:1 compression ratio.
It would be nice to get somewhere in the 8.5 to 9:1 area.

Or what would happen if I put a Stock 200x piston in it for 9.6:1 C.R.?

You can still run 87 octane in a 200x, right?

The pistons would be a direct swap too.

[shortline10]

So I saw the 200s only has 7.8:1 compression ratio.
It would be nice to get somewhere in the 8.5 to 9:1 area.

Or what would happen if I put a Stock 200x piston in it for 9.6:1 C.R.?

You can still run 87 octane in a 200x, right?

The pistons would be a direct swap too.

Running a stock compression 200x piston is a good upgrade and you should feel the difference and as far as gas goes you should be running high test 93 anyway as it makes the motor run a bit cooler and cooler is better on an air cooled motor . your only talking about 25 cents a gal any way .

[litebulblsc]

I never knew 93 octane was required or would make it run cooler. I will keep that in mind next time I got to get gas for it.

So, anyone have a good, used, cheap, 200x piston?

[shortline10]

93 octane is not required but I recommend it . What is your bore at 65mm stock . I have a few stock 200x pistons .

[litebulblsc]

I haven't pulled my motor apart as it is still ridable, but I doubt it has ever been bored. How much would you want for a piston. Moneys kinda tight and I am not sure if I want it yet or not. I just know that I am going to buy new gaskets and put the head on, and then decide to get a new piston

[AutoXer]

only $60 for a new one or $100 for a weisco 10.25:1 might as well do it now instead of buying gaskets twice

[shortline10]

New200x pistons are all over ebay . when your ready just buy a new one and you should be good for a while .

[litebulblsc]

Shortline, shoot me a pm with a price on a used stock one. I will have my mind made up by Monday whether or not I want one.

[greythorn3]

will a 200s engine work in a 200x chassis?

[shortline10]

will a 200s engine work in a 200x chassis?

Bolts in just fine but you have to redo the rear brake peddle as their is no were to connect it to the 200s motor .

[oscarmayer]

if you wait, you can find a 12"1 piston weisco) for less than $80 new. i got mine for $70 shipped.

[litebulblsc]

I am already pushing it with a 200x piston. The 12:1 will come when I some how blow it up or something

[shortline10]

Try and pull start that motor with a 12 to 1 piston . Bet you'll put a dent in the tank about the size of a grapefruit when your hand slips off .:eek: :naughty: I have an atc 90 with 13.5 to 1 venolla 61mm piston and you really have to be carful when you grab that handle shens

[litebulblsc]

I don't even have a recoil start. Just do the old rope around the starter peice tricks. Thing starts right now without even trying.

[litebulblsc]

Got my cylinder head. Is there any easy way to strip the paint off of it?

[shortline10]

Got my cylinder head. Is there any easy way to strip the paint off of it?

Paint stripper and a brass brush is what I use . Home depot sells a spray can type that works pretty good .

[litebulblsc]

I probably have some stripper out in the garage. I will have to check.

[AutoXer]

I probably have some stripper out in the garage. I will have to check.

dude i love strippers ... can i come over I have a bunch of 1's :beer :lol:

[litebulblsc]

Any suggestions on getting the screws out of the cover that says cdi on it. Tried hitting the screw driver with a hammer, but it didn't work.

[leevarnado]

impact driver,like $15 on ebay

[litebulblsc]

Thats what I figured, but I don't have one. Wanted to get some tear down done, but a stupid screw ruined that idea.

[MonroeMike]

Run down to Menards, they are 5 bucks.

[litebulblsc]

Sweet. My buddy who I was helping with his 200s works there. I will have hiem pick me one up in the morning.

[MonroeMike]

I bought mine there, when that store first opened. probably costs a little more now. Less than 10 bucks still, I bet.

I use it that impact driver all the time.

[lndy650]

a pair of vicegrips on a screwdriver works good too you can push on the back of it with one hand and get good leverage with the other

[litebulblsc]

Tried the vise grips. My dad claims that the impact drivers is the way to go, and the people that posted confirmed it is the way to go

[lndy650]

they are i was just giving you a hint so maybe you didnt have to wait to get one

[litebulblsc]

Ya I appreciate it but its already getting dark and there are no lights in the garage so I don't mind the wait.

[litebulblsc]

Well I got an impact driver ($6 at Menards) and it loosened the bolt, but it ended up falling apart and stripping the head of the screw. So what are my options now? Just drill the head off the screw? If I do and get the cover off will there be enough of the screw remaining to get vise grips on?

[shortline10]

Well I got an impact driver ($6 at Menards) and it loosened the bolt, but it ended up falling apart and stripping the head of the screw. So what are my options now? Just drill the head off the screw? If I do and get the cover off will there be enough of the screw remaining to get vise grips on?

If you just drill the head off the bolt their should be a little left to grab with the vise grips just make sure you put some penetrating oil before you attempt to remove it . Those CDI cover bolts usually come off very easy I'm surprised their on so tight :wondering :rolleyes:

[litebulblsc]

Even the one I got out came out hard. The screw drivers were grabbing good, so its stuck in there good. I tried spraying it with pb blaster but it didn't do anything. And no I am not the one that tightened them if that's what you're trying to say..

[shortline10]

Even the one I got out came out hard. The screw drivers were grabbing good, so its stuck in there good. I tried spraying it with pb blaster but it didn't do anything. And no I am not the one that tightened them if that's what you're trying to say..

Nope I didn't mean it that way as you over tighten it .Some times when the bikes are left outside they just get weathered so its probably just stuck from oxidation . Just be patient and spay it with lube and rock the vise grips back and forth before you try and take it out .

[litebulblsc]

Drilled the head and got it all taken apart. Got the headless screw soaking in pb blaster.

[litebulblsc]

The timing looked off when I took it apart. The manual says to align the the line next to the "T" up with the pointer to get top dead center, so I did. But the "O" on the cam was a little counter clockwise of the pointer. So do I try to line it up correctly, or do I line it up the way it was when taking apart. When I tried lining it up it looked a little too clockwise. Am I trying to hard or is there a bit of play in there?

[litebulblsc]

Well I have an hour of seat time on it now since the swap. The bottom end performance is their sometimes, but sometimes it is not. For example, when it is running good it can pull the front tire without even trying. When it is running not as good, I can only get the tire up a little when trying. But the top end performance really suffered. When topped out in 5th now, it compares to about 3rd topped out or 4th cruising before.


Any ideas?

The cam timing was set back to where it was originally. I eye balled the spark timing back to about where it was. It runs real rich by the look of the plug, but it did before. Compression seems to be the same.


Thanks,
Josh

[oscarmayer]

your timing needs to be where the manual stated.
you also need to consider the carb is not tuned. did you rebuild the carb? if not try rebuilding it. sometimes the parts are so worn that even cleaning doesn;t work. the holes can be ovled out and thus cause incorrect fueling (hence why a rebuild kit for a carb is only $14-$20 shipped)

get the timming correct (T to notch and cam to notch) then redo the carb and it should be much better. are you sure the timing chain guide is not worn out? if it is it won't provide proper pressure to the chain and that can also cause issues. another thing is the spark advance is mechanical. it is part of the cdi unit. it's te part that has the magnet that rotates. if those springs are missing, broke, rusted it can keep it from working correctly.


Get the factory manual and READ it READ everythign about the head and timing. then follow every step. you have been jumping all over and doing what ever you want. How can we help if you don't follow simple manual directions that the factory wrote? follow exactly what it tells yo and then come back if there's a problem.

[litebulblsc]

I read the manual.

I didn't replace the timing chain so their is a little slack, making it at the most 3 degrees off.

The carb is the same as before, same as the timing is the same as before. I realize their may be problems with those things, but it is the same problem as before the change.

Their is a new problem now that I need to chase down.


I didn't deserve that "tone" you took with me. I didn't do anything out of spec.


For reference here is the thread I made when I was having trouble with the valve timing

http://www.3wheelerworldforums.com/showthread.php?t=102073

[AutoXer]

I can't believe that your timing chain has 3 degrees of slop in it. Sounds more like a carb problem to me as well

[litebulblsc]

3 degrees was a guesstimate. I checked and double checked it. I set a level on the surface that the crank timing mark cover threads into and leveled the motor based on it. Lined the mark up dead on. Pounded a screw driver into the wood bench after passing it through the pull start thing to hold it at TDC. Then when I tried lining the dot on the cam it was a little off. Moved it a tooth and it was off the other direction. If you got a better explanation other than a stretched chain, let me so I can check into it

[litebulblsc]

3 degrees was a guesstimate. I checked and double checked it. I set a level on the surface that the crank timing mark cover threads into and leveled the motor based on it. Lined the mark up dead on. Pounded a screw driver into the wood bench after passing it through the pull start thing to hold it at TDC. Then when I tried lining the dot on the cam it was a little off. Moved it a tooth and it was off the other direction. If you got a better explanation other than a stretched chain, let me so I can check into it

[oscarmayer]

I didn't deserve that "tone" you took with me. I didn't do anything out of spec.

I'm not "giving you a tone".
You stated eariler it was out of timing and not correct per the manual, then you did NOT set it per the manual but back to where it was. how are we supposed to help if your not doing exactly what it says and doing what ever? It's not liek you have years and years of expirnece and know what your doing and have reasons for doing it, your flying by the seat of your pants here and aren't doing what the manual says. any advice offered isn't going to help unless your at least putting it to factory stock specs to start. the chains usually don't stretch much, but the guides and tensioneers do wear so those should have been replaced. did you adjust the timing chain tensioneer per the manual? if not then do that and see what happens (engine must be running to adjust it correctly) are you sure all the connections are correct? double check all of the connections of tghe timing tensioneer. thts requires pulling the side cover off and checking where it conencts. something is wrong so look at every thing and check it all. could the crank shaft chain sprocket be bad? better hope not as those are expensive to replace due to hours needed to do so.

[shortline10]

Here are the pics of the 200x stock piston . Nice condition lots of life left and rings are still very tight in the stock 65mm bore . wrist pin very good also .

[litebulblsc]

I'm not "giving you a tone".
You stated eariler it was out of timing and not correct per the manual, then you did NOT set it per the manual but back to where it was. how are we supposed to help if your not doing exactly what it says and doing what ever? It's not liek you have years and years of expirnece and know what your doing and have reasons for doing it, your flying by the seat of your pants here and aren't doing what the manual says. any advice offered isn't going to help unless your at least putting it to factory stock specs to start. the chains usually don't stretch much, but the guides and tensioneers do wear so those should have been replaced. did you adjust the timing chain tensioneer per the manual? if not then do that and see what happens (engine must be running to adjust it correctly) are you sure all the connections are correct? double check all of the connections of tghe timing tensioneer. thts requires pulling the side cover off and checking where it conencts. something is wrong so look at every thing and check it all. could the crank shaft chain sprocket be bad? better hope not as those are expensive to replace due to hours needed to do so.

Haven't seen this post. The one adjustment on the carb was set incorrectly, set it to spec and put a new plug in it and it runs good.

[litebulblsc]

I have one more question for everybody, what exhaust? I need something that flows better then stock 200s, but nothing too loud. Whats every bodies suggestions?

[oscarmayer]

how about a cobra system or bassoni (if you can find a nice one)?

[litebulblsc]

I heard the cobra was kind of loud, but can't beat the price.

And does any one sell bassoni or are they discontinued? I might try looking for a good used one.

[leevarnado]

i've got a bassani for sale.

[litebulblsc]

I don't have money for one right now

[litebulblsc]

Pics

My 200s
http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l295/litebulblsc/bbc009.jpg

Buddy's 200s
http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l295/litebulblsc/bbc010.jpg

My 110
http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l295/litebulblsc/bbc011.jpg

[litebulblsc]

Yeah, I finally was able to get a gasket set so I can build up my motor.

Also suppose to be rebuilding someone elses 200 in trade for a cobra exhaust system.