Just rebuilt 200x wont start! help!!!

[inv3ctiv3]

Ughhhhhh so I bought a 200x not running and the owner said it had good compression but needed a valve job so I put a "new" head on with a fresh valve job and a "new" carb. It fires, you can here it fire and smoke puffs out

Does anyone have any ideas at all? If I uploaded a video would that help?

[Atc GuY]

It may be 180* out of time... try spinning the cam-chain sprocket 180*...

[beets442]

+ 1 check timing. check points? fresh plug?Does it back fire? Beets

[inv3ctiv3]

Yea brand new plug, it shouldn't be out of time but I'll check. Any tips on checking the timing? I know I lined up the cam at tdc

[beets442]

http://72.52.143.80/~trikes/Manuals/ATC%20manuals/83-85ATC%20200xservicemanual.pdf

[inv3ctiv3]

I tried again last night, took the CDI cover off changed the timing a bit and still nothing.....It fires or pops ponce and some smoke puffs out but that is it. I am going to maybe put the old carb on and try it, maybe this brand new one has a problem or something.....I am just so lost because it could be any number of things, bad cdi, bad pulse generator, no compression, bad valve timing, bad ignition timing, bad spark, bad run switch, etc etc etc.

If I did indeed flip the sprocked 180* will it hurt anything? I am almost positive I got that correct, the T mark on the alternator was lined up with the O on the chain sprocket and the cam was exactly how I took it out.

[Dirtcrasher]

People get a 50/50 shot of setting the cam right. You want the lobes AWAY from the rockers at "T".

You will not harm anything in being 180 degrees out, but 120 degrees out is another story.

What timing did you change last night??

[inv3ctiv3]

People get a 50/50 shot of setting the cam right. You want the lobes AWAY from the rockers at "T".

You will not harm anything in being 180 degrees out, but 120 degrees out is another story.

What timing did you change last night??

I changed the pulse generator base plate, I guess I "retarded" the timing as it was all the way over to the left which advances the timing. I bought the trike with no pulse generator cover on it so maybe that was messed up to? I don't have any way to measure the air gap either, what tool do you use for that?

[Atc GuY]

Will it start if you bump-start it?
EDIT: To set that gap I always used a dollar bill (if I'm thinking about the same gap you are LOL) The plate should be in the middle of its adjustment. Not all the way advanced or retarded... My '84 200X had this same problem, it looked to be in time, but the cam chain adjusters had taken up too much slack... I had to RETARD the cam timing 1 tooth...
EDIT #2: Having the top of the adjuster all the way to the left (spin it completely counterclockwise) RETARDS the timing..

[inv3ctiv3]

Will it start if you bump-start it?

No I haven't tried that yet cause the clutch cable isn't set up, there doesn't seem to be enough spring to bring the handle back.....Once you compress the clutch it stays that way, you have to manually push the handle back.

[Atc GuY]

How's the cable itself? Rusty/corroded?

[inv3ctiv3]

How's the cable itself? Rusty/corroded?

It doesn't seem so but maybe, I need to get a new one. I also had to use the twist throttle because the one I got off ebay was all shitty and the cord was too short, it was a mess.....

[Atc GuY]

I know the feeling.... If your 200X pops then its not the CDI/plus generator plate. It sounds to me like valve timing, as my '84 did the exact same thing. It would pop and pop when kicking it (I eventually broke the kicker) but wouldn't start. I could bump start it all day, and it wouldn't idle. I had my pulse generator plate fully retarded. It ended up that the cam chain adjusters had made my timing 1 tooth ADVANCED. Check it out, it could be 1 tooth off. If that plate is all the way to one side then you need to move the cam a tooth.

[inv3ctiv3]

Move the cam a tooth? Sorry but the cam chain tensioner and adjusters are soooo confusing to me.....But that sounds exactly what is happening with me!

[Erics350x]

You are out of time, run the piston up to tdc, then check the rockers to make sure they are both released.

[inv3ctiv3]

Everything I've read about the cam chain tensioner says let the trike idle and adjust it but I obviously can't do that....any tips?

[Atc GuY]

Move the cam a tooth? Sorry but the cam chain tensioner and adjusters are soooo confusing to me.....But that sounds exactly what is happening with me!
The cam chain adjusters mainly reside in the "jug" of your engine. They are two pieces of plastic that are spring loaded, and they press the cam chain together, thus taking the slack out of it.

I would recommend that you somehow download the manual listed in a previous post before you tear into the engine. I downloaded it and referred to it from time to time throughout the reassembly of my engine.

WARNING WHAT IS WRITTEN BELOW MAY MAKE NO HUMANLY SENCE!! READ WITH CAUTION AND REALIZE THIS IS WHAT WORKED FOR ME AND MAY NOT WORK FOR ANYONE ELSE... :lol:

If you remove the CDI cover, the pulse generator plate, the armature, the dowel (DO NOT LOOSE), and the cam sprocket cover you will be looking at your cam chain sprocket. MARK THE CAM-CHAIN AND SPROCKET WITH A SCRIBE!!! To remove the sprocket, you will need to remove the two blots holding the sprocket in place and "shimmy" the sprocket off its recess and onto the smaller part of the cam. Then you can use a small screwdriver to pull the chain up and over the sprocket 1 tooth. (so the screwdriver will go between the chain and sprocket towards the front of the bike then you lift up on the screwdriver and run the screwdriver around the sprocket. (like if you stuck your finger in the chain and it ran around the sprocket LOL)) Doing this will let the cam retard 1 tooth... Now reassemble and when you bolt everything up your scribe marks are spaced out 1 space then you have succeeded! The scribe mark on the sprocket should be towards the rear of the trike, and the one on the chain towards the front of the trike (sitting on it.)

Ummm... please get a manual! It will make your life easier... this isn't a hard procedure to do. But without any pictures/illustrations it's going to make things REALLY hard. If I still had my bike I would be tempted to go take pics of what you had to do...

Hope this helps a little...

[Dirtcrasher]

Remove the top 10MM bolt and loosen and or remove the larger bolt and it's guts. Use something to push down on the small center pin that attaches to the lever. You should feel it move, sometimes it binds in the 2 angled collars that lock it in place. Once it's all free, you can reassemble it with some grease or oil on it and tighten it up while the lever is taking up the slack.

Honestly (The BEST thing to do), take off the left case cover, remove the bolt and upper collar from the cam chain adjuster and look at how it all works. Then you'll have a clear understanding of what needs to be done.

Unfortunately, in stock form you are relying on a spring to keep pressure on it while you tighten it up and it can bind up. Your better off figuring out HOW it works before you screw it up, or before I give you advice that doesn't make sense without watching it work.

Also, I've never found an 83-85 200X that didn't need a cam chain and both guides replacing. It costs under 100$ and Dennis Kirk has a Parts Unlimited brand and DID chain that work just fine :D

[inv3ctiv3]

I have a clymer manual and the one I got online but alas I am a visual learner and need to just see things. Basically I am going to go home, check and make sure the rockers are see if they are free, if not I am gonna fix that. If they are then I am going to advance the chain 1 tooth and report back. I can't thank you guys enough, I may not seem mechanically inclined but I am, I just ask more then I need in case I need it later haha ;) cheers

[inv3ctiv3]

I also put 91 octane in it that wouldn't matter right? I remember always running 87 in my old 3-wheelers but I figured why the hell not?

[oscarmayer]

check my sig, you can download the actualy factory service manual.

[inv3ctiv3]

check my sig, you can download the actualy factory service manual.

Yea I already had that one.

[Erics350x]

Another thing you should check while you ave it apart is the pin that drives the rotor on the cam. If that falls out you'll never get it running.

[inv3ctiv3]

Another thing you should check while you ave it apart is the pin that drives the rotor on the cam. If that falls out you'll never get it running.

The Dowel Pin? The one that the Pulse Generator backing sits on?

[Erics350x]

The very small dowel pin in the cam that drives the rotor.

[inv3ctiv3]

So I flipped the cam sproket 180* and it did nothing. When it is at TDC on the compression stroke the valves are not "free". I am at a loss on this motor, I work on motors for cars and smaller motors but this one has got me at my wits end.

[inv3ctiv3]

You are out of time, run the piston up to tdc, then check the rockers to make sure they are both released.

This makes no sense to me, if it is at TDC on the compression stroke the valves should be closed.....That is what is making the compression, if the valves were released or open it wouldn't work.....

Right now I just re-alligned everything, the T mark on the alternator is alligned with the mark on the case and the piston is at TDC on the compression stroke as far as I can tell but the valves are closed, is that correct? The motor won't start and I really don't know what else to do, maybe the new car is messed up? I am gonna throw the old one on tomorrow. If I can't get it to run it looks like I will be junking this project and just selling it :( I have found numerous ones for sale that run for $500 around here. That or there is a motor on eBay I may get. Sorry for all the dumb questions!

[Erics350x]

Released from the rockers is closed! You set the cam timing with the T mark on the flywheel and the O on the cam gear line up with the V on the rocker box.. Then you worry about the rotor.

[WIkid500]

Put the Piston on TDC of the compression stroke making sure the flywheel is on the T mark. Then put the cam in (lobes down) away from the rockers. This means the valves are shut. Once this is all lined up install the CDI. Once everything is together push start it. Often times with a new carb things like the idle and pilot aren't adjusted right. Choke it and push it till it runs. Mine didn't want to start the first time by kicking, it would pop and not take off. We pushed it once and it was running and driving.

[inv3ctiv3]

Ok well I just went and checked and at TDC right now, the O and the T are lined up and only the exhaust valve is released.....So it looks as if maybe this head I bought on eBay with the fresh valve job maybe wasn't done so well? Can anyone help with adjusting the valves? So at TDC I can only wiggle the exhaust side rocker, the intake one is open or something because I can't wiggle it at all.

[WIkid500]

Take a pic of what you have going on here. Are both cam lobes down? As in pointing towards the piston. This means the exhaust and intake valves should be shut. If the cam is pointing anywhere else you need to time the cam and make it so both valves are shut when the piston is at tdc.


If need be take the cam out, mark where the lobes are so you can see this when you put it in the engine. At this point you should be able to time the cam correctly.

[MonroeMike]

Check the manual, it tells you how to adjust the valves, step by step.

It's on page 3-6 of this manual, which you said you have.

http://www.oscarmayer.net/atc/manuals/honda/ATC200S%2084-86%20Shop%20Manual.pdf

[Dirtcrasher]

One critical step when putting your motor back together (esp with a head from a diff machine) is to back both rockers off completely. If you time it off and kick it over with tight valves, say goodbye to one or both valves.

I'm not sure if the manual even explains that, nor does it explain HOW a cam tensioner works nor does it explain what 180 out if and how it affects things. Manuals more say "do it like this" and don't troubleshoot or explain in full detail. You have to use your own judgement for that.......

If you worked on cars and understand how valves relate to pistons, use that knowledge in this engine. Instead of pushrods, you have an overhead cam. If the lobes are in a perfect flat plane DOWN, you are on the compression/firing CORRECT stroke, if they are in a perfect plane UP, you are finishing the exhaust stroke and beginning an intake stroke and 180 degrees out. If that flywheel is at "T" and either one of those situations don't exist, you makem boo boo :D

Something can't be easy about it because it seems allot of guys have trouble with 4 stroke motors. Just wait till you try and adjust the valves on one of these new thumpers :lol:

[inv3ctiv3]

One critical step when putting your motor back together (esp with a head from a diff machine) is to back both rockers off completely. If you time it off and kick it over with tight valves, say goodbye to one or both valves.

I'm not sure if the manual even explains that, nor does it explain HOW a cam tensioner works nor does it explain what 180 out if and how it affects things. Manuals more say "do it like this" and don't troubleshoot or explain in full detail. You have to use your own judgement for that.......

If you worked on cars and understand how valves relate to pistons, use that knowledge in this engine. Instead of pushrods, you have an overhead cam. If the lobes are in a perfect flat plane DOWN, you are on the compression/firing CORRECT stroke, if they are in a perfect plane UP, you are finishing the exhaust stroke and beginning an intake stroke and 180 degrees out. If that flywheel is at "T" and either one of those situations don't exist, you makem boo boo :D

Something can't be easy about it because it seems allot of guys have trouble with 4 stroke motors. Just wait till you try and adjust the valves on one of these new thumpers :lol:


Well that's just great, I definitely have been trying to start it and did not back off the rockers.....

[inv3ctiv3]

Update, so I adjusted the intake cam and it still won't kick start....we pushed started it and it starts and will run for a few seconds if you keep it WOT, if you let off it just dies....

[oscarmayer]

if it's dieing, then that's either timming or carb. try adjsuting the carb per the manual.

[Erics350x]

You are still outta time or you bent a valve. Does it fell like it has good compression when kicking it over?

[inv3ctiv3]

You are still outta time or you bent a valve. Does it fell like it has good compression when kicking it over?

Not really no, it never has felt like it had great compression to be honest. The valves seem fine but who knows. I may just sell this motor as a parts motor and buy another one.

[Erics350x]

Pull the head and look at the valve faces, i bet you'll find a corner sticking up. If so, let me know and i'll hook you up with a head or valves for not much more than shipping cost.

[inv3ctiv3]

Pull the head and look at the valve faces, i bet you'll find a corner sticking up. If so, let me know and i'll hook you up with a head or valves for not much more than shipping cost.

Cool man, I'll let you know! I still don't know about the motor though, the kick starter feels like it slips or something sometimes.

[Erics350x]

The kicker sliping is common on the 83-85 200x's. As long as it isn't doing it most of the time i wouldn't worry about it. It can be fixed but, its a pain in rear. You have to split the cases to get to the kicker gear and have em back cut.

[inv3ctiv3]

The kicker sliping is common on the 83-85 200x's. As long as it isn't doing it most of the time i wouldn't worry about it. It can be fixed but, its a pain in rear. You have to split the cases to get to the kicker gear and have em back cut.

I am just going to sell the motor as is and let them know whats up and buy another one.

[Atc GuY]

Update, so I adjusted the intake cam and it still won't kick start....we pushed started it and it starts and will run for a few seconds if you keep it WOT, if you let off it just dies....
Sounds like the engine's timing is retarded. Try advancing the stator plate (rotate it clockwise) until it almost touches the housing "keeper" thing. (I do not know the proper name for this.) If you pop the plug and slowly roll the engine over, you would be able to hear if you were hitting a valve... plus if you shine a light down the plug hole, you should be able to see the condition of the piston walls and top of the piston...... just a thought before you go buy another engine.....

[inv3ctiv3]

Sounds like the engine's timing is retarded. Try advancing the stator plate (rotate it clockwise) until it almost touches the housing "keeper" thing. (I do not know the proper name for this.) If you pop the plug and slowly roll the engine over, you would be able to hear if you were hitting a valve... plus if you shine a light down the plug hole, you should be able to see the condition of the piston walls and top of the piston...... just a thought before you go buy another engine.....

No I know, I have pulled the spark plug and rotated it slowly, no indication at all that a valve hit at all. I had a friend who is a big time moto racer look at it and he couldn't figure it out either. I contacted the old owner and he said the compression was like 130 and the manual says 134 is the lowest it should go, is that correct?

[inv3ctiv3]

The kicker sliping is common on the 83-85 200x's. As long as it isn't doing it most of the time i wouldn't worry about it. It can be fixed but, its a pain in rear. You have to split the cases to get to the kicker gear and have em back cut.

It slips most of the time, I have bruises all over my legs from it haha

[WIkid500]

It slips most of the time, I have bruises all over my legs from it haha

Best way to kick a 200x is turn around and do it backwards so it's like a dirt bike. I stand on the right peg with my left leg, kick with my right foot, that works the best for me. Make sure the kicker is engaged and apply smooth firm pressure to try to minimize the slipping.

[inv3ctiv3]

I'll try advancing the timing and kick starting it that way and if nothing happens I am taking the motor out and selling it for parts.

[Macs]

Whoaaa, slow down on buying a new motor and ditching this one. You could end up with more headaches then it is worth. I skimmed through the threads and noticed that the compression is a bit low. I would go ahead pull the cylinder off, hone, replace rings. Inspect the head real good. Do the water on the valves test. If anything looks out of whack, repair etc. Put it back togther then start troubleshooting. If it is low on compression that will make it difficult to troubleshoot in my book.

[Dirtcrasher]

Take a compression test again - hold the throttle wide open, choke off.

Dump about 1 TBLSPN of engine oil in the cylinder and take another reading.

If it changed, you have a ring/piston/cylinder clearance issue. If it did not change, you have a valve leaking.

One thing for SURE about those 83-85 200X, if compression is low they are a bear to start and those kickers feel funny anyhow just by design.....

[inv3ctiv3]

Well this a total mystery motor, I have no idea the last time it ran. I did get it to start yesterday but I don't want to deal with it anymore. This could be an opporunity for someone to get a good motoe that wants to but the time into it.