200x stroker motor Piece of History

[shortline10]

Picked up this old original 200x stroker motor from ex team Honda rider Tommy Gaian . Just came in the mail on Tuesday . Missing the head which he said was shot but came with a couple cylinders and pistons . The bottom end was still pretty much together . The stroker crank is really nice , looks to be lightened a-lot . This is the old school way to stroke a 200x by using a stock rod and moving it out 5mm and using a 5mm spacer plate to raise the cylinder . I did notice that 2nd gear was trashed and this is probably why the motor was apart as Tommy couldn't remember what was wrong with it . As you can see from the pics I tore it completely apart and will clean , inspect and replace the bad parts . Check out the pic of the stroker next to the stock crank . Also the flywheel weight was removed and looks to have been lightened a bit . I haven't measured the stroke of this yet but I believe with the 5 mil spacer gives you 5mm more at the top of the stroke and 5mil more at the bottom of the stroke for a total of 10mm stroker ? If anyone knows how this works please let me know ? I did check the rod and its @ stock length . I've only used the powroll stroker set up on the 200x which is totally different so any help is appreciated on this one .

[WIkid500]

Hey Shortline, that is an awesome old motor you found! I am in the process of building a stroker motor for my 85 200x. I would like to do the exact thing you have going on here but what did they do for the cylinder/head studs? Are they longer to make up for the spacer plate, or are they just long enough from factory that you don't have to mess with them? Thanks!

[oscarmayer]

sweet find! no sure how stable it is as from what I understand the spaers palces leaked quite a bit, but it may be worth a try.

[Bryan Raffa]

yes Im intrested also.. I got one waiting to be built..more info..:twisted: I know for shure Im going Stroker..

[shortline10]

Not sure about the cylinder studs length yet because the top end was off but will check it out tomorrow for you . I did check the timing chain and its definatly longer than a stock one .

[KASEY]

mhhhh,, why would you need a stroker to run in the 200cc class??? i knew alot of cheaters back in the day,,,,

[shortline10]

185 cylinder and a stroker made for a bad a@@ combination back in the day and still legal in the 200 class . Made lots of power that way .

[Daddio]

The spacer plate is one way to compensate for the stroker crank. There is a guy here in town who used to own a motorcycle shop back in the day and he said that he sent parts out to Powroll and Mickey Dunlap to have them worked over and when he got them back he inspected what they had done and copied some of their ideas for his customers. He told me that powroll shortened the rod to compensate for the stroker cranks. This guy is a goldmine of knowledge. It's hard to get him to open up but when he does it's nothing short of amazing, what he knows.

[WIkid500]

The spacer plate is one way to compensate for the stroker crank. There is a guy here in town who used to own a motorcycle shop back in the day and he said that he sent parts out to Powroll and Mickey Dunlap to have them worked over and when he got them back he inspected what they had done and copied some of their ideas for his customers. He told me that powroll shortened the rod to compensate for the stroker cranks. This guy is a goldmine of knowledge. It's hard to get him to open up but when he does it's nothing short of amazing, what he knows.



Daddio, Powrol still does this to 200x cranks. I'm just not a huge fan of the short rod. I don't like the extreme crank angles you get when you do this. I'd rather keep the rod long and have less side pressure on the piston as it's going around. Makes more power and lasts longer with the long rod.

[250r'en +TCB]

Awesome score you have their my friend!!!

[Daddio]

Daddio, Powrol still does this to 200x cranks. I'm just not a huge fan of the short rod. I don't like the extreme crank angles you get when you do this. I'd rather keep the rod long and have less side pressure on the piston as it's going around. Makes more power and lasts longer with the long rod.

I agree with what you're saying, I was just telling the story.

[Dirtcrasher]

I wouldn't worry about the spacer plate leaking. No gaskets (if you can get away without them :D) and Hondabond/3Bond that puppy.

I'm sure it's a NASTY motor!! I'd love to take a spare motor and build an 87 200X stroker motor. No one uses the "shrunken rod tech." on the 86/87 crank though........I think I have to get the pin moved and build a spacer for it myself.......

You <85 guys have to careful with the kicker gear BS and address that when your building the motor :D

[WIkid500]

Dirtcrasher I'm going to have a friend cut a few spacer plates on the water jet this fall. If you can make a cad or solidworks drawing for the 86-87 I can get a few made. After they are cut I can throw them on the surface grinder at college and grind them to size. That way they will be flat, and we shouldn't need gaskets.

[bansheejoel]

here is the pic of my 411 stroker engine that mickey dunlap at four stroke tech. built for team kawasaki back in the day. Ported and polished, big valves with a big set of cams.....oh and ofcource the stroker crank and spacer. Havent had any probelms with the spacer plate.....oh and this thing is MEAN since stock it was a 250 lol

http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll155/breanneashley07/mojo_0021.jpg

http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll155/breanneashley07/mojo_0051.jpg

[greenhuman]

On your image of the stroker and standard crank, measure from the top of the main bearing to the top of the pin on the standard crank and do the same on the stroker and see what the difference is then double the difference and that will tell you how much it is stroked.
I have never had any issues with the short rod 200X strokers as they are not stroked all that much, only 3mm at the pin. That does not increase the angle enough to create a problem. The long rods are OK as well but having to run old stretched cam chains for one thing negates any advantage over the short rod cranks.
Sparks used to build the Team Honda four strokes I believe and I think you will find that crank is a 64mm. The spacer may be thicker because it may have run a piston out of something else to keep it in the class.

[oscarmayer]

that's cool guys! good stuff.
I to am not a big fan of the extreme crank angles. i'd rahter han a shoter crank angle and longer rod and have the piston move less than have it move more. Why? the less movement means higher RPMs it can run! ;)

[sandpuppi101]

You stated pretty much what I was gonna say on the size of the stroke Green human.With measuring the differance you'll get the rod distance but a piston is gonna negate what the stroker size is.Going with bigger valve's make's me think a short side'd piston ,Hi-compression and a possibible milled head.I have'nt done a ton of stroker's on thumper's but as far as banshee's i've messed around with long and short rod stroker's and I think the short rod is gainging alot of popularity ,with my experience's anyway.I'm very curious to see what the cam was and how the head was layed out on the 200X,very curious,and too see the valve set-up also.My guess is that it's a 5mm stroker when all is said and done,IMO 10mm is a chunk of change with that motor.Now Seadoo has a shortrod crank and that machine just flat arse haul's,so I'm deffintly really anxious to see how this stroker work's.Is the crank stamped anywhere for i.d.

[shortline10]

I looked all over the crank for a makers stamp and found nothing . I also measured the crank like Green human said and its measuring 5mm different from the stock crank from main bearing to wrist pin . so its defiantly a 10mm stroker . I checked the piston that came with it and its deck heigth is the same as stock .

[shortline10]

Hey Shortline, that is an awesome old motor you found! I am in the process of building a stroker motor for my 85 200x. I would like to do the exact thing you have going on here but what did they do for the cylinder/head studs? Are they longer to make up for the spacer plate, or are they just long enough from factory that you don't have to mess with them? Thanks!

I just checked the studs and they are stock length . The motor didnt come with any of the copper head washers so I think they just didnt use the washers and it will bolt up just fine .
I have cleaned the cases and repainted them . Got a complete gasket kit and will start to put this back together this weekend if the wife let me !!!

[greenhuman]

A 68mm stroker. That's a good thing right there!
What size is the piston and are there any numbers on it?

[shortline10]

Piston is a 65.5 and looks to be about 10 to 1 compression or so . If I did my math correctly the motor should turn out to be 229.1cc ?? 6.55 x 6.55 x 6.8 x .7854 = 229.1 WOW 37cc over stock !

[Billy Golightly]

10mm 200x stronger crank, DANG!

[shortline10]

Ok I got a little time this past weekend so I started to assemble the stroker motor . Had to replace the shifter drum and a few tranny gears (missing teeth ) also went threw the kicker assembly to make sure it will work properly . Clutch is all new with HD Barnett springs and stock plates . The piston rings were still within tolerances so all I did was give it a hone . Don't think Ill be using base gaskets as it raises the cylinder too much. Polished up the 5mm cylinder spacer so it really stands out now . Going to try and use a standard head gasket instead of the thick copper one just to give it a bit more compression . I think I'll dig threw my piles and find a really tight head and give it a fresh port and polish .
All suggestions welcome and if you've got a nice ported 200x head you want to sell or trade PM me . A nice old school TC duel spark plug head would be nice . Nice to dream anyway .

[oscarmayer]

i have a shop that for $150 (maching and cleaning work) will do a top notch CNC valve job and basic chamber porting from the valve side.

www.theoldone.com tell them mike sent ya.
817-924-9334

the shop's name is endyn. I dod my big red 200e head and I tell ya it made a big difference on the torque values.

[seadoo650]

Dirtcrasher I'm going to have a friend cut a few spacer plates on the water jet this fall. If you can make a cad or solidworks drawing for the 86-87 I can get a few made. After they are cut I can throw them on the surface grinder at college and grind them to size. That way they will be flat, and we shouldn't need gaskets.

I want one of those when you get them done. :drool: PLEASE:D

[WIkid500]

I want one of those when you get them done. :drool: PLEASE:D

The question is: do we want them out of aluminum or steel? I see Shortline's is aluminum. If we make them out of aluminum I will do them on the CNC here at school that shouldn't cost us more than the stock it takes to make them. Maybe a little bit to make it worth my time... But the good thing is I work for cheap. lol

[shortline10]

Hey Shortline, that is an awesome old motor you found! I am in the process of building a stroker motor for my 85 200x. I would like to do the exact thing you have going on here but what did they do for the cylinder/head studs? Are they longer to make up for the spacer plate, or are they just long enough from factory that you don't have to mess with them? Thanks!

While I was cleaning more parts on the stroker motor today I noticed that the valve cover head has been machined down 5mm . Not sure why I didn't check this before :rolleyes: but at least I know how he used the stock studs .

[userj8670]

This is awesome!

[Dirtcrasher]

If we use aluminum, we have to fly cut it and hold it some how.....

It's so thin that steel surface ground to spec would be just fine :D

How come I thought I was good at stroking until I read whats REALLY involved :lol:

All this time and I find out I'm just a dam beater...............

[WIkid500]

Shortline that is awesome! Thanks for the pic of the cam cover. I can do that part easily with and end mill in the bridgeport.

Dirtcrasher I hear ya on the machining of aluminum. I think I will have some parts cut on the water jet this fall. I can surface grind them to thickness, from there just use some anaerobic sealer on both sides and it should seal up nice and dry.


The worst part is going to be machining the crank, I'm still running that one through my head.

[oscarmayer]

ok question, how do you guys plan to get the extra "stroke" if you have as tocker crank and stuff? it may be cheaper to jsut produce a longer rod, or see if an existing machien has a longer rod like maybe a 250 or a 350x? hrmm gets ya thinking!!!

[oscarmayer]

Shortline that is awesome! Thanks for the pic of the cam cover. I can do that part easily with and end mill in the bridgeport.

Dirtcrasher I hear ya on the machining of aluminum. I think I will have some parts cut on the water jet this fall. I can surface grind them to thickness, from there just use some anaerobic sealer on both sides and it should seal up nice and dry.


The worst part is going to be machining the crank, I'm still running that one through my head.

yea i'm thinking a logner rod may be better. plus the "dwell" time will makethe motor think it's larger than it is and offer up more torque for sure!

[WIkid500]

yea i'm thinking a logner rod may be better. plus the "dwell" time will makethe motor think it's larger than it is and offer up more torque for sure!



Think man you can't just add a longer rod to gain stroke... That would just move the piston up from where it usually is. You need to move the rod OUT on the radius of the crank to gain stroke.

[seadoo650]

Think man you can't just add a longer rod to gain stroke... That would just move the piston up from where it usually is. You need to move the rod OUT on the radius of the crank to gain stroke.

DING DING DING.....We have a winner. Sometimes it's hard to understand the workings of it.

[shortline10]

Just got done restoring the flywheel cover . This had a-lot of deep scratches and a few dings . I am trying to keep as many original part as I can . I chem stripped it and filled a few imperfections and gave it a new coat of paint . Next step is the head . I have a 84X motor with very little time on it so I think i'll pull the head and break out the porting tools !!!!!

[shortline10]

After about 8 hours on and off I finished porting the new head for the stroker motor today :w00t: . Opened it up quite a bit because I'm thinking this motor is really going to need to breathe :naughty: .

[The Goat]

how does the cover still little exciter thing still fit up top with it machined down 5mm?

[AutoXer]

how does the cover still little exciter thing still fit up top with it machined down 5mm?

the cover wasn't machined down it was the recesses that the bolts come through that were machined down

[Bryan Raffa]

all I gotta say is Im glad you got the motor and broke it down the way you did .. I have a 84 screaming for a motor like that!!! I hear .. that another fast 200x from ohio..might hit the ice this year in NY...:naughty:

[shortline10]

The stroker motor is all back together now :Bounce . Didn't use any base gaskets just a light film of gasket sealer so It would keep the deck piston height correct . I installed a NOS set of PM racing valve springs and a NOS Curtis Sparks full race cam . This was a fun motor to bring back to life but now is the dilemma of which 200x do I want to put it in ????:wondering :wondering :wondering . Its going on the shelf for now so I can get back to my Sprint atc 90/180 project .

[oscarmayer]

Think man you can't just add a longer rod to gain stroke... That would just move the piston up from where it usually is. You need to move the rod OUT on the radius of the crank to gain stroke.

um hello? what about that 5mm spacer your adding? :P

[oscarmayer]

i personally do not think it's a good ideal to fill in stuff with paint. too much paint can cause heating issues. I would have blasted it, sanded, wet sanded smooth then paint the cases. But eh, if ytour not too worried about it, that's ok.

how do you know you ported it right? jsut opening the port doesn't mean it's goign to flow right. if ported incorrectly you can actually end up with worse performance than a stocker untouched setup. I've seen this happen tons of time. once a head is put on a flow bench the truth comes out. opening can give more volume, but the "flow" and sustainable flow rates are what are important in performance.

anyway, good luck and hope things work out great for ya!

[shortline10]

i personally do not think it's a good ideal to fill in stuff with paint. too much paint can cause heating issues. I would have blasted it, sanded, wet sanded smooth then paint the cases. But eh, if ytour not too worried about it, that's ok.

how do you know you ported it right? jsut opening the port doesn't mean it's goign to flow right. if ported incorrectly you can actually end up with worse performance than a stocker untouched setup. I've seen this happen tons of time. once a head is put on a flow bench the truth comes out. opening can give more volume, but the "flow" and sustainable flow rates are what are important in performance.

anyway, good luck and hope things work out great for ya!

First off I didnt just fill the motor cases with paint they were chem stripped and repainted so i'm really not sure what your getting at .

I have been building and porting honda motors sence the 80s and learned a few tricks in my day and I'm not just a kid with a Dremal tool like you seem to think ?? :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[oscarmayer]

First off I didnt just fill the motor cases with paint they were chem stripped and repainted so i'm really not sure what your getting at .

I have been building and porting honda motors sence the 80s and learned a few tricks in my day and I'm not just a kid with a Dremal tool like you seem to think ?? :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

well good then it shoudl work fine. point is a lot of peopel do not knwo that I jsut stated. it wasn;t a negative remark at all so why being suck a pissy? I don't get it. people make comments in my threads and I don;t get pissy. sheesh. grab a beer and chill. no one said you didn't know anything. most don't know about porting. but then again, I'm sure you know a flow bench is the only real way to ensure your porting it correctly which is why i would never port w/o one.

cases: you never started anything except "I filled the scratches with paint" what is anyone supposed to think? Half assed info passed along may get you halfassed comments based on info started even if it's not exactly what you did as we are not there with you to see how you actually did it. get it? aghain why so pissy? sheesh.....

[shortline10]

well good then it shoudl work fine. point is a lot of peopel do not knwo that I jsut stated. it wasn;t a negative remark at all so why being suck a pissy? I don't get it. people make comments in my threads and I don;t get pissy. sheesh. grab a beer and chill. no one said you didn't know anything. most don't know about porting. but then again, I'm sure you know a flow bench is the only real way to ensure your porting it correctly which is why i would never port w/o one.

cases: you never started anything except "I filled the scratches with paint" what is anyone supposed to think? Half assed info passed along may get you halfassed comments based on info started even if it's not exactly what you did as we are not there with you to see how you actually did it. get it? aghain why so pissy? sheesh.....

It's called respect and i'm going to get a beer rite now :beer :beer :beer

[Dirtcrasher]

I don't think he's "pissy" I believe he's confident and if you followed his recent posts he's a piece of ATC history.

Beyond that, just look at the motor and the attention to details. I'm pretty certain SL knows what he's doing, has a wealth of information to add to this board and I'm glad he's here.......

[freaksfix]

Looks real good Mike, you do some very nice work.. Im glad this motor went to a good home and was tore down and gone threw properly.. As for what 200X to put it in, im sure i could come up with one..:beer Your BAPP crank case breather is boxxed up and will be going out Tuesday morn..

Id like to see some pics of your "110"s if you wouldnt mind sharen some time.. Freaks

[shortline10]

Looks real good Mike, you do some very nice work.. Im glad this motor went to a good home and was tore down and gone threw properly.. As for what 200X to put it in, im sure i could come up with one..:beer Your BAPP crank case breather is boxxed up and will be going out Tuesday morn.. Freaks

Thanks for the Tip on this motor Freaks :beer :beer can wait to hear what it sounds like . I know a powroll stroked 200x has a very different sound to it than a stock cranked 200x so this one should really rippp :naughty: :naughty: :naughty:

[Nick_R_23]

When the spacer plate is used under the cylinder, it raises the overall height of the top end of the engine, including the frame mount on the head, which would make the top frame bracket unusable. Is it just not used or did they machine a new one to compensate for the added head height?

-Nick :TrikesOwn

[shortline10]

When the spacer plate is used under the cylinder, it raises the overall height of the top end of the engine, including the frame mount on the head, which would make the top frame bracket unusable. Is it just not used or did they machine a new one to compensate for the added head height?

-Nick :TrikesOwn

Your correct about the heigth of the motor its 5mil taller now so i'm thinking new top motor mounts . I wouldnt go without the top mounts my self .

[WIkid500]

This is just an awesome post. Thanks for sharing all this Shortline, the motro looks great. One more question, What was done to the crank for balance? Since the rod pin is moved out on the radius of the crank wouldn't that throw off the balance of the crank? Is it not enough to effect anything, or was weight somehow added to the opposite side?

[shortline10]

This is just an awesome post. Thanks for sharing all this Shortline, the motro looks great. One more question, What was done to the crank for balance? Since the rod pin is moved out on the radius of the crank wouldn't that throw off the balance of the crank? Is it not enough to effect anything, or was weight somehow added to the opposite side?

I know powroll 200x strokers drill 4 large holes to compensate for extra stroke but i'm not sure about this stroker , it does have a-lot of weight removed and spins very true . I guess i'll find out when I put it to the test .

[WIkid500]

Sounds good Shortline. I would like to hear how it runs, I will be doing this to my 200x this fall. My friend and I are going to throw the crank of mine into the CNC and do some work on it. Same stroke you have on yours. I will have to do some math on the weight/balance issue.

[userj8670]

What i want to know is where you got a NOS curtis sparks cam??! I cant believe no one else asked that:confused: Major props on this rebuild. I hope you decide which 200x soon cuz i want to hear this thing breathe!:w00t:

[shortline10]

What i want to know is where you got a NOS curtis sparks cam??! I cant believe no one else asked that:confused: Major props on this rebuild. I hope you decide which 200x soon cuz i want to hear this thing breathe!:w00t:

HUMMMM NOS Curtis Sparks Cam :wondering :naughty: ??? The Box Looked about 25 years old but the cam was still NOS :Bounce

[Bryan Raffa]

HUMMMM NOS Curtis Sparks Cam :wondering :naughty: ??? The Box Looked about 25 years old but the cam was still NOS :Bounce

:lol: :lol: :w00t: :w00t:

[oscarmayer]

HUMMMM NOS Curtis Sparks Cam :wondering :naughty: ??? The Box Looked about 25 years old but the cam was still NOS :Bounce

lol sweet man!
sounds liek my 250sx cycliner i scored. guy took it off a 3 month old 250sx in 85 when the guy wanted to install a big bore setup back then. he sprayed it with oil that preservices metal and stuch it in a box on the shelf. 6 months ago he put it on line for sale and i got it for $35! it has less that 3 hours. not wear at all on it all origional!!! lol it's nice getting sweet scores isn't it?!!!

[shortline10]

lol sweet man!
sounds liek my 250sx cycliner i scored. guy took it off a 3 month old 250sx in 85 when the guy wanted to install a big bore setup back then. he sprayed it with oil that preservices metal and stuch it in a box on the shelf. 6 months ago he put it on line for sale and i got it for $35! it has less that 3 hours. not wear at all on it all origional!!! lol it's nice getting sweet scores isn't it?!!!

I do a-lot of hard lookin on the internet and it pays off every once and a while :)

[shortline10]

Bump for Kasey !!!!!

[oscarmayer]

sup shorty! :) i still got them 250sx/es cyclinder parts and liek 2or 3mm overbore piston if your intersted.

[kasey200x]

Thanks for the bump Mike.

This was the build I was referring to as the 5mm stroker you did.

I'm going to share with you guys my plans for getting some good juice out of a 200x.. don't say I never did anything for you.

If you can kind of try to visualize(this is something you probably need a picture, or three, to be able to stay on the same page lol), The Powroll stroker is a short rod. Which means for every MM of stroker the shrink the rod. So, a 3mm stroker(at BDC) makes the bottom of the piston 6mm closer to the top of the crank. This is important because there is a point where you would have to used a lowered wrist pin(I want to keep shelf pistons usable).

Since it is a short rod stroker and has a total loss of 6mm(which is the highest that I can find), we can use this as a guide line to ensure a total of six mm is safe.

Your build here was a 5mm long rod. Which puts the total loss at 5mm(because you use the same rod length, so you only loose 1mm for every mm of stroking.) So, you still have a mm to play with.

Another thing to consider is using too much of a spacer beneath the cylinder. Using to large of one would make the stock timing chain to short, and again we want to keep stock parts.

So, here is a few basic options..

1. Use a 5mm stroker, with a combination of shrinking the rod and a spacer plate. Since you have to compensate via either the spacer plate, off set wrist pin, or a shrunken rod, I think for this stroker the best thing to do would be to shrink the rod 1mm, and a 4mm spacer plate. This(while limiting us to our "safe point" of total loss of 6mm) ensures you can use the stock timing chain(even a new, fresh one) and still use off the shelf pistons.

2. A 6mm stroker with the following combination; A 5.5mm spacer plate, and a .5mm shorter rod. This puts our total depth at 6.5mm over stock. Again the advantages being(ideally, you want to keep the longer rod possible to keep the rod angle lower and lengthen the wear time on your piston/cylinder), pretty lengthy rod compared to the powroll 3mm short rod, and off the shelf components such as the timing chain and the piston options.

I have not had a chance to get my engine apart since beginning this so I am not sure how much space is left on the out side of the crank to move the pin out more than 5mm, So if there is not enough space and you wish to go bigger, some machining will be needed. To the crank and likely to the cases.

3. A 7mm would be the largest I would feel safe doing(the need rather, because you then get into some serious $ output with custom pistons, rods, and other machining). It is likely you would have to have metal added to ensure the pin is very secure to the crank. If you move stroke too far out the pin gets closer to the edge, leaving less metal holding it to the crank.
For this a 6mm spacer(stretched or lengthen cam chain) and a 1mm shortened rod is what I would feel best with running. Simply for the same reasons as above, longest rod length possible, and using stock/easily modified timing chain. Total depth over stock would be 8mm.

If anyone want's to reply to this please make a new thread.. The only reason(not to hijack!) I responded with this is because this is the reason Shortline bumped this thread for me. If you want me to delete this just let me know Mike! Thanks again for the info you gave me.

Kasey

[greenhuman]

You can use a standard CRF230 crank, cylinder and piston. This is a 66.3mm stroker as compared to a Powroll 64mm and there is no issues with deck heights etc. There is a little bit of work involved but well worth it.
I am also looking into offset crank pins and different rod combos at the moment for an even longer stroke.

[kasey200x]

Isn't the crf230 crank shaped differently? Where the fly wheel mounts? I also have looked into the off set pins, but it's not something any of my crank shops feel to comfortable doing.. Falicon requires you to have an established business for two years before you can become a dealer, and there prices are INSANE.
Can you pm me the details on the crf crank?

Kasey